Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grandmaster_Kane 04-12-07, 04:12 PM	Blade Paragon Level -- Special 1 -- Truth of the Blade - Twin blades 2 -- Flurry of death/ 1 day 3 -- Secret of the blade-Frenzy of the hunter 4 -- Flurry of death/ 2 day- Bonus feat 5 -- Blade weave 6 -- Flurry of death/ 3 day- Secret of the blade -Art of the double cut 7 -- Blade weave (greater) 8 -- Flurry of death/ 4 day - Bonus feat 9 -- Secret of the blade- Faith in the blade 10 -- Flurry of death/ 5 day Alignment: Any Hit Dice: D8 Prerequisites Base Attack Bonus: +25 Feats:Weapon focus (slashing weapon), Ambidexterity, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Spring attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical (any one handed or light slashing weapon),Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Two Weapon Defense, Dodge, Mobility, Greater Two Weapon fighting, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization Epic Feats: Epic Weapon Focus (any one handed or light slashing weapon), Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, Epic Weapon Specialization Special: Must have single-handely defeated at least 20 opponents of equal or greater strength than yours in melee combat using a pair of unenchanted slashing weapons without armor on. OR You may then request to be trained by a current Blade paragon. And do a task or quest of his choosing to prove yourself worth. Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int Modifier Flavor Text Just as there are paragons in nature there are paragons in other aspects of the world. The Blade paragon represents the highest level of skill a true swordsmen can ever hope to attain. Swordfighting is a art form and the Blade paragons are the Grandmasters of there craft. There are two ways to become a Blade Paragon . 1 way the Blade paragon class can be obtained throu countless hours or training and a lifetime of mortal combat exsperence culmanating in a grand melee with you using only a pair of masterwork blades and you wits to survive. After you are the last man standing you retreat to a place of solitude and meditate on your life and style of swordsmenship and how to improve yourself. After 24 Hours of uninterupted meditation you are instantly enlighted and you come upon secrets few other have ever dreamed of. The other way is to seek the tutaledge of a Current Blade Paragon and humbly beg him/her to teach you there ways. The Master Paragon Can then send you on a task or quest of great diffuculty to prove you worth. If you are able to complete this task in the time constrained issued to you by the master you can then learn from him the secrets of the blade paragon. Word of mouth travels fast and new Blade paragons my soon find themselves welcomed in city and hailed by merchants looking for a skilled blade, But conversely they may also find themselves constanly targeted by wouldbe challengers and assassins looking for a reputation boost and seeking to dig it out with there dagger from the small of your back... Class Features Weapon and Armor Proficiency - Characters gain no proficiency with any weapons of armor Twin Blades: All the class features of this class can only be used if the Blade Paragon is wielding a pair of slashing melee who benefit of the Improved Critical and Epic Weapon Focus. For ease of reference, this weapns are refered as the twin blades. Truth of the Blade (Ex): At 1st level, when the Blade Paragon makes a full attack when wielding his twin blades, he gains an extra attack at his full attack bonus which each wielded weapon. This effect does not stack with extra attacks gained from other sources, such as weapons with the speed enchantment or the haste spell. Secret of the Blade: Starting at the 3rd level and following at 6th and 9th levels, the Blade Paragon deep focus and meditation allows him to develop a powerful ability related to his blades. Secrets must be taken in order given Frenzy of he Hunter (Ex): At 3rd level, a blade paragon learns how to enter a frenzy of battle once per day, gaining a +14 bonus to Strength, and a +6 bonus to Dexterity and Constitution. The blade paragon may choose to end this frenzy prematurely, but otherwise it lasts for (3 rounds +1 round per each point of the Blade paragon improved Constitution score). For the duration of the frenzy, the Blade Paragon takes -10 penalty to ac, 15 points of subdual damage per round, incapability of recognized friend or foe and incapability to activate magic items in rage. When he end his frenzy, he also becomes fatigued for a number of rounds equal to the rounds he spent in the frenzy. Starting or ending the frenzy is a free action for the Blade Paragon. Also if the Blade paragon uses the Frenzy of the hunter speacial ability in conjunction with the flurry of death after both rages end, the BP becomes exhausted. If they both end at the same time, the BP takes 1d10 of Constitution damage instead. The damage lasts for 1 hour. Art of the Double Cut (Ex): At 6th level, a Blade Paragon which rolls a natural 20 on an attack roll against a foe can immediatelly make an extra attack (at the same attack bonus) against the same foe. Faith in the Blade (Su): At 9th level, the Blade Paragon's connection to his blades is so strong that he can execute a powerful strike that not only wounds a careless foe, but also allows him to recover from damage. Using this ability is a full round action that do not provokes an attack. After using this ability, the next attack the Blade paragon makes against a corporeal living creature who is denied of its Dexterity bonus to AC not only deals normal damage, but heals the Blade Paragon of damage equal to the damage dealt with the first attack. This ability does not allow the Blade Paragon to gain temporary hit points if the damage healed would surpass his normal hp total. Cannot be used in combination with Flurry of death or Frenzy of the Hunter. ------------------------------------------------- Flurry of Death (Ex): At 2nd level, the Blade Paragon can enter into a state of temporary battlelust that greatly enhances his combat skill once per day. When in this state, the blade paragon gains a + 10 on all attack and damage rolls and gains 2 extra additional attacks with each weapon wielded when making a full attack (this stacks with the benefits of the Truth of the Blade class feature). However, if you do not drop any creature (killing it or reducing his hit points to 0) after 5 rounds, you automatically end this state, become fatigued and take a -15 penalty to attack and damage rolls for the next 5 rounds. Any movement of the BP provokes an attack of opportunity. It also loses the bennefits of blade weave and is treated as flat-footed when attacked.Also if the Blade paragon uses the Frenzy of the hunter speacial ability in conjunction with the flurry of death after both rages end, the BP becomes exhausted. If they both end at the same time, the BP takes 1d10 of Constitution damage instead. The damage lasts for 1 hour. Entering the flurry of death is a free action. At every even level above the 2nd (4th, 6th, etc), the blade paragon gains an extra daily use of Flurry of Death. Bonus Feat: At level 4 and every 4 levels thereafter (8th, 12th, 16th, etc) the blade paragon gains a bonus feat from the Epic Fighter bonus feat list. he must meet all the prerequisites for the seleced feat. Blade Weave (Ex): At 5th level, a Blade Paragon gains a Dodge bonus to armor class equal to half his class level, rounded up. This bonus applies only against ranged attacks and spells that require a ranged touch attack As a move action, the Blade Paragon may choose to extend this armor class bonus against any type of attack (melee or ranged) until the beggining of his next turn. Starting at level 7 the blade paragon's dodge bonus increases to 1/2 his class levels +2. If you guys have some ideas for me ill listen
Witch 04-12-07, 04:28 PM	Epic Prestige Classes don't give Base Attack Bonus. Dex modifier does not grant skill points. Ever. Truth of the Blade: at what attack bonus? Faith in the Blade: abusable. You could simply keep attacking items with it. It should also be supernatural. Better to remove it altogether or limit it to certain conditions. Deathless Frenzy: just no. Crippling Strike: what is the effect of crippling? Furthermore, the DC is calculated wrong. Make it DC 10 + 1/2 character level + ability modifier (either int, str or dex - take your pick). 5 rounds stunned on a succesful save is too much. Make it 1, or 1d3. Throw Weapon: No. Also, the save DC was calculated incorrectly. Art of the Double: Change it to "on a confirmed natural twenty, make an extra attack at the same attack bonus". Blade Weave: No. Flurry of Death: No.
bluemage55 04-12-07, 04:49 PM	ROFL. This class has riotous heart. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2257552) ;) On a serious note, though, Grandmaster Kane, you are not ready to design prestige classes yet, let alone epic prestige classes. Refraining from doing so in the future will serve to keep you from looking bad.
Witch 04-12-07, 04:51 PM	ROFL. This class has riotous heart. ;) It certainly does. It certainly does. You might want to add a dog companion, Grandmaster_Kane.
Salernodc 04-12-07, 06:35 PM	As opposed to making fun of someone folks, let's show a little patience.....as Witch did initially (and as BlueMage did on my Ultimate Critical thread). Grandmaster Kane - your PrC is overpowered because your ability or stat boosts are many times more than is normal for a D&D/WOTC prestige class. In addition all classes use INT as the mod on skill points gained at each level. Drow are smaller and more slight of frame - what is the rationale for a d12? In the future, I would suggest researching 7-10 published prestige classes that have similarities with what you're looking for in a homebrewed class. Then study how the designers built these classes - in relation to requirements, class skills, saving throw DCs, bonuses and abilities. BlueMage55 & Witch - as you guys are ahead of the curve in building PrCs, please post links with what you've created so that Grandmaster Kane and others can learn from your experience. Thanks guys.
Witch 04-12-07, 06:52 PM	BlueMage55 & Witch - as you guys are ahead of the curve in building PrCs, please post links with what you've created so that Grandmaster Kane and others can learn from your experience. I'm afraid I haven't got any epic prestige classes around, and I don't think what I made is a better (though perhaps, in some cases, an equally good) example than official material, which there's plenty of. As opposed to making fun of someone folks, let's show a little patience.....as Witch did initially (and as BlueMage did on my Ultimate Critical thread). It's an insider joke about another prestige class - if I ever find the original thread again, I'll link it someplace here ;) Grandmaster Kane - your PrC is overpowered because your ability or stat boosts are many times more than is normal for a D&D/WOTC prestige class. In addition all classes use INT as the mod on skill points gained at each level. Drow are smaller and more slight of frame - what is the rationale for a d12? In the future, I would suggest researching 7-10 published prestige classes that have similarities with what you're looking for in a homebrewed class. Then study how the designers built these classes - in relation to requirements, class skills, saving throw DCs, bonuses and abilities. I think the only motivation for the d12 is getting in more power - which is, unfortunately, a bad method of developing (prestige) classes, or anything in D&D. Everyone needs to learn ofcourse - I can't say what I made initially was very well made. In fact, I made a prestige class that could basically Deny Weave, like Mystra's Salient Divine Ability (although it was limited to a number of times per day :)). It's important to realize, Grandmaster Kane, that this game doesn't solely revolve around big numbers. A +4 bonus to strength is already impressive - there is no need for a +20 bonus. Try and compare to printed material for purposes of balance, preferably core material. Look at your prestige class and ask yourself: "would I rather play a fighter 30/blade paragon 10 or a fighter 40?" - if the question is so clear that you will not hesitate, and immediately say "blade paragon!", then there is an issue, and you need to remove power from your class. Aside from this, Kane, you may want to familiarize yourself with the ruleset somewhat more - you seem to simply attach ad hoc DCs. There's actually rules as to how they work. There're similar errors, which I've already pointed out, and they all indicate a lack of rules knowledge. While building something may help in learning the rules, I think you're going over the top by that much, it's not going to help you this way.
Salernodc 04-12-07, 06:58 PM	"Look at your prestige class and ask yourself: "would I rather play a fighter 30/blade paragon 10 or a fighter 40?" - if the question is so clear that you will not hesitate, and immediately say "blade paragon!", then there is an issue, and you need to remove power from your class." Although with all the complaints about Fighters for one.... Secondly - there are many printed PrCs that are immediately more appealing than certain base classes. I've always found that quote from Wizards (I believe it was in the DMG II or 3.5 DMG) very hard to swallow.
Witch 04-12-07, 07:01 PM	Secondly - there are many printed PrCs that are immediately more appealing than certain base classes. I've always found that quote from Wizards (I believe it was in the DMG II or 3.5 DMG) very hard to swallow. And I find them badly designed - it's mostly the case with caster prestige classes, and I generally support the notion of removing a caster level on them. Although with all the complaints about Fighters for one.... Saw that one coming :-P But I made my point - no need to limit it to fighters. Say Ranger or Barbarian, then.
Grandmaster_Kane 04-12-07, 08:02 PM	omg witch you made me cry so much im emo lol // wrist k im making alterations now 1. Epic Prestige Classes don't give Base Attack Bonus. 2. Dex modifier does not grant skill points. Ever. 3. Truth of the Blade: at what attack bonus? 4. Faith in the Blade: abusable. You could simply keep attacking items with it. It should also be supernatural. Better to remove it altogether or limit it to certain conditions. 5. Deathless Frenzy: just no. 6. Crippling Strike: what is the effect of crippling? Furthermore, the DC is calculated wrong. Make it DC 10 + 1/2 character level + ability modifier (either int, str or dex - take your pick). 5 rounds stunned on a succesful save is too much. Make it 1, or 1d3. 7. Throw Weapon: No. Also, the save DC was calculated incorrectly. 8. Art of the Double: Change it to "on a confirmed natural twenty, make an extra attack at the same attack bonus". 9. Blade Weave: No. 10. Flurry of Death: No. I made a good number of chages But i am keeping BLade Weave and Flurry of death i simple made the flurry more costly and Blade weave less awsome lol __________________
Aluroon 04-12-07, 08:58 PM	Kane, I've said this before, and I'm sorry if its harsh, but most of that I have seen you post on this board looks like stuff I came up with when I was in middle school, with little or no understanding of the epic rules, and an obsession with power. I strongly suggest you look at some NPC's that others have developed, and some of the actual existing epic prestige class's, before attempting your own work on them.
Grandmaster_Kane 04-12-07, 09:06 PM	Kane, I've said this before, and I'm sorry if its harsh, but most of that I have seen you post on this board looks like stuff I came up with when I was in middle school, with little or no understanding of the epic rules, and an obsession with power. I strongly suggest you look at some NPC's that others have developed, and some of the actual existing epic prestige class's, before attempting your own work on them. ok... anything specfically? (both classes i should look at & on my class)
Monkeygod 04-13-07, 01:28 AM	it seems like he tried to blend Blade Singer/Dancer, Legendary Dreadnought, Weapon Master, and Duelist and a melee type Archmage/Hirophant into a horrible mishmash of ungood. i'll say this much, which nobody else has, it hadsPOTENTIAL but it needs to be seriously re-tooled. some suggestions: 1) lower the bonuses by at least 10. a +10 to Str, Dex and Con for maybe a minute is more sane than its current incarnation. 2) look to the Archmage/Hirophant for example abilites, then of course make them melee oriented and Epic. but take their precedant and come up with level/ability pre-reqs for each secret. 3) also, as it stands, there a 5 secrets and 5 levels in which to gain a secret. what that means is that every character who takes this EPrC is going to be the same. now normally that isn't a problem, most PrCs dont offer options, but you seem to be trying to make this a melee version of the AcM/HrP which is fine, but create more secrets, so people have options.
Grandmaster_Kane 04-15-07, 03:36 PM	yet again mad some changes i feel this is a risky class to use but is very benefitual
askala3 04-16-07, 01:44 AM	1) Truth of the Blade is nice (and rather powerful), and because of it the class should require at least Weapon Focus in the weapon to take advantage of. It should also contain the Cut & Paste "does not stack with similar effects that grant extra attacks like haste". 2) Deathless frenzy shouldn't have two durations, and probably shouldn't grant both flat hit points and Constituion. 3) Crippling Strike should be a Fort save (it doesn't say which it is) and the save DC should be Int based (as per Death Attack from the Assassin). As opposed to a flat -20 to AC it should make them count as flat footed vs. all attacks or deny them their Dex to AC (minor difference of allowing AoOs). There also should not be such a powerful effect if they make their save. 4) Thrown Weapon doesn't seem right to me. Maybe that it would work better as the combination of the throw anything feat and the already granted crippling strike class ability. That and more rules does not mean a better ability. 5) Art of the Double Cut, maybe require Imp. Critical with the weapon in question, or say you forgo all the effects of the critical to get the extra attack (the 20 still would auto-hit), or both. 6) The requirements for the class are very low and simplistic given the power of the class's abilities. Add some more requirements, preferably ones that not all characters will take (like Iron Will, Skill Focus [Spot], etc.)
Grandmaster_Kane 04-16-07, 10:48 AM	1) Truth of the Blade is nice (and rather powerful), and because of it the class should require at least Weapon Focus in the weapon to take advantage of. It should also contain the Cut & Paste "does not stack with similar effects that grant extra attacks like haste". 2) Deathless frenzy shouldn't have two durations, and probably shouldn't grant both flat hit points and Constituion. 3) Crippling Strike should be a Fort save (it doesn't say which it is) and the save DC should be Int based (as per Death Attack from the Assassin). As opposed to a flat -20 to AC it should make them count as flat footed vs. all attacks or deny them their Dex to AC (minor difference of allowing AoOs). There also should not be such a powerful effect if they make their save. 4) Thrown Weapon doesn't seem right to me. Maybe that it would work better as the combination of the throw anything feat and the already granted crippling strike class ability. That and more rules does not mean a better ability. 5) Art of the Double Cut, maybe require Imp. Critical with the weapon in question, or say you forgo all the effects of the critical to get the extra attack (the 20 still would auto-hit), or both. 6) The requirements for the class are very low and simplistic given the power of the class's abilities. Add some more requirements, preferably ones that not all characters will take (like Iron Will, Skill Focus [Spot], etc.) you see this ^^ is what i wanted everybody to do
bluemage55 04-16-07, 12:33 PM	Change the HD to d10. Only serious tank classes get d12, and this class more closely resembles the fighter or the dervish.
Grandmaster_Kane 04-16-07, 01:56 PM	Change the HD to d10. Only serious tank classes get d12, and this class more closely resembles the fighter or the dervish. originally it was a uber overpowered tanks class.....
bluemage55 04-16-07, 02:54 PM	originally it was a uber overpowered tanks class..... That's not what drow are about. The -2 Con penalty somewhat suggests this. Let me do a rewrite for you, in a manner that is appopriate for an epic prestige class suited for drow: DROW WEAPON MASTER Hit Die: d10. Requirements To qualify to become a drow weapon master, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Race: Drow elf. Base Attack Bonus: +23. Skills: Tumble 15 ranks. Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical, Power Attack, Weapon Focus. Epic Feats: Devastating Critical, Overwhelming Critical Special: Must be the weapon master of a drow house. Class Skills The drow weapon master's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex). Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier. Table: The Drow Weapon Master Level Special 1st Whirling Frenzy 1/day 2nd Specialist Training 3rd Bonus feat 4th Whirling Frenzy 2/day 5th Specialist Training 6th Bonus feat 7th Whirling Frenzy 3/day 8th Specialist Training 9th Bonus feat 10th Whirling Frenzy 4/day Class Features The following are class features of the drow weapon master prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Drow weapon masters gains no proficiency with any weapons or armor. Whirling Frenzy: At 1st level the drow weapon master can fly into a whirling frenzy once per day, plus one additional time every 3 levels thereafter. In a whirling frenzy, a drow weapon master temporarily gains a morale bonus equal to his class level to Strength, a dodge bonus equal to one-half his class level to Armor Class and Reflex saves, and evasion. While in a whirling frenzy, the drow weapon master may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round so it also affects attacks of opportunity the drow weapon master might make before his next action. While in a whirling frenzy, a drow weapon master cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic itmes that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A whirling frenzy lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character's Constitution modifier. A drow weapon master may prematurely end his whirling frenzy. A drow weapon master can fly into a whirling frenzy only once per encounter. Specialist Training (Ex): At 2nd level, the drow weapon master gains the benefit of focusing his or her craft on a particular type of work, specializing in one of the following categories and receiving a +3 bonus on all checks with the listed skills. Every three levels thereafter, the drow weapon master gains specialist training again. He or she may select the same category more than once. Concealment: Bluff, Disguise, and Forgery. Subterfuge: Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, and Pick Pocket. Espionage: Listen, Search, and Spot. Interaction: Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive. Bonus Feats: The drow weapon master gets a bonus feat at 3rd level and an additional bonus feat every three levels thereafter. These bonus feats must be selected from the following list: Blinding Speed, Epic Might, Epic Prowess, Epic Rage, Epic Toughness, Epic Weapon Focus, Exceptional Deflection, Infinite Deflection, Penetrate Damage Reduction, Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, Reflect Arrows, Superior Initiative, Two-Weapon Rend.
Grandmaster_Kane 04-16-07, 03:01 PM	omg *kicks mage in the nuts* not what i intended it to be you zig when you should have zag it is a bit wordy but you just made a completely new class from my ... "base" i guess anyway..... yeah..
bluemage55 04-16-07, 03:03 PM	Honestly speaking, your base is crap. Notice what I did differently: 1. Epic bonus feat progression 2. Only one signature ability 3. A useful filler ability related to the flavor of the class 4. All abilities scale ad-infinitum 5. No one-time abilities 6. No ridiculously overpowered abilities that you pretend to balance with large drawbacks that don't matter
Witch 04-16-07, 03:10 PM	1. Epic bonus feat progression 2. Only one signature ability 4. All abilities scale ad-infinitum 5. No one-time abilities These factors aren't all required, though. 6. No ridiculously overpowered abilities that you pretend to balance with large drawbacks that don't matter This one matters, though.
bluemage55 04-16-07, 04:44 PM	All of those fall under the general design of epic prestige classes.
Witch 04-16-07, 04:46 PM	Which doesn't mean I should agree with it =)
Geraturatu 04-22-07, 07:39 PM	All he needs to do is tone down the abilities a tad bit, change around the prerequisites (for the sakes of catching it up) and put something in there that actually will show the order it goes up as they take more levels. Like say, have any abilities that can only be used so many times a day (or are changed to that type) to gain more uses, or have abilities that get more powerful. All you need to do is have the abilities start out at low bonuses that get bigger the more you take the class. It shouldn't be to hard to make these sort of changes. Take it from te guy that has spent weeks messing up and fixing custom dnd character options. :)
Grandmaster_Kane 04-24-07, 05:50 PM	omg i think i might have finally created a good class i have edited it yet again and i think it is MUCH more reasonable now
Elessar Alpha 04-24-07, 08:09 PM	I still think the frenzy ability is a bit overpowered. The Frenzied Berserker gives a max of +10 to Strength during a frenzy, and no other bonuses. Besides this, they take subdual damage and a -4 to AC. Now, granted, this class is epic. But still, +10 to three ability scores with only a movement penalty? (I don't see the eyesight penalty as anything really devastating) Maybe make it +12 Str, but drop the Con down to maybe +6, and the same with Dex. The eyesight penalty, for what it's worth, makes sense, but I don't see movement impediment as a linked feature. Why not go a little more traditional and take some pages out of Complete Warrior? Do some AC penalty or something. Oh, and don't you think they should be fatigued or something after this? Another thing: the bonuses on attack rolls for flurry of Death are, in my opinion, way, way too high. Legendary Dreadnought gets a +20 from the unstoppable ability, and doesn't get to do it nearly as many times per day. Damage, okay, but drop the attack bonus to something comparable to Leg. Dread. If you do that, though, also drop the morale penalty considerably.
Grandmaster_Kane 04-24-07, 09:09 PM	omg i think this class is slowly becoming usable
Geraturatu 05-03-07, 07:24 PM	Yeah, I would actually allow this into my campaign now.
Grandmaster_Kane 05-04-07, 09:55 AM	woot an endorsement i feel so proud
Aluroon 05-04-07, 11:20 AM	Yeh.... Sorry, I still wouldn't let this come within 50ft. of my gaming table.
Grandmaster_Kane 05-04-07, 03:44 PM	Yeh.... Sorry, I still wouldn't let this come within 50ft. of my gaming table. any particular problems? i was thinking of remooving crippling strike and throw weapon and replacing them with bonus feat or something would that make you happy?
Geraturatu 05-04-07, 06:04 PM	It's a pretty good one now though. If you read through it, it is alot more balanced out. Sure, it's a really good class that makes things really powerful, but think, how many players are going to use drow? Not to mention the extreme amount of prestige classes that are limited to so many other races like dwarf, elf, and others. It seems kinda fair that the Drow get a powerful melee class when they aren't very physically strong already. All in all, he's balanced it out really well, with a bit of help, to make a good class. This is an epic class and we don't want the other epic classes to outrank it, now do we?
Aluroon 05-04-07, 06:34 PM	It's a pretty good one now though. If you read through it, it is alot more balanced out. Sure, it's a really good class that makes things really powerful, but think, how many players are going to use drow? Not to mention the extreme amount of prestige classes that are limited to so many other races like dwarf, elf, and others. It seems kinda fair that the Drow get a powerful melee class when they aren't very physically strong already. All in all, he's balanced it out really well, with a bit of help, to make a good class. This is an epic class and we don't want the other epic classes to outrank it, now do we? I think Bluemage summed up my concerns. 1. No Epic bonus feat progression 2. To many signature ability's. 3. No abilities scale ad-infinitum 4. To many one-time abilities 5. Ridiculously overpowered abilities that you pretend to balance with large drawbacks that don't matter I'd start by getting rid of the "bladeweave" and replacing it with an ability that starts with a +1 bonus to AC and increases every few levels. Deathless Frenzy: makes no sense from a flavor perspective. Nothing about the drow has ever supported the idea of a Frenzy or of being Deathless. Completely out of character for the Race. Throw Weapon: Once again, an ability that makes no sense for the race and is incredible overpowered (and nonsensical). Throw your weapon and kill them instantly? Yeh, that makes sense. Go ahead and remove this. Furry of Death: Incredibly overpowered. Compare it to the legendary dreadnought which gets a +20 bonus once or twice a day on a single check. Also note the above Frenzy makes no sense for Drow. Art of the Double Cut: Not horrible. Faith in the Blade: Another nonsense ability. Concentrate for 5 rounds then heal as much damage as you do the next round? No, No, and No. Cut this out entirely. I suppose the Deathless Frenzy could be reworked into some kind of Supreme Focus ability thats similar to rage, but as of right now I find it ridiculous.
Geraturatu 05-04-07, 06:38 PM	What are you talking about? The abilites can go for eternity. There are also many prestige classes that offer more signature abilities than anything else in many official D&D books. Have you even looked at it lately? It is alot diffrent. I would have been the first to admit that it was messed up before. Now it's alot better, and suitable for a campaign. It's fine.
Aluroon 05-04-07, 06:44 PM	What are you talking about? The abilites can go for eternity. There are also many prestige classes that offer more signature abilities than anything else in many official D&D books. Have you even looked at it lately? It is alot diffrent. I would have been the first to admit that it was messed up before. Now it's alot better, and suitable for a campaign. It's fine. I looked at it just before posting, and its not really much different from the original. As for prestige class's and scaling infinity, I suggest you actually look at some epic prestige class's so you have some idea of what I'm talking about. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClasses/intro.htm The SRD, learn it love it, you'll be a better person for it.
Geraturatu 05-04-07, 06:52 PM	Those aren't the only prestige classes you know. Compared to some of the prestige classes put out for D&D, even some of the non epic ones, this isn't the most powerful one. Just trust me, I own a lot of books and I love to read. There are worse things than this. If I had to choose between fighting someone woth one of those classes, and someone with this class, I'd bullrush this class.
bluemage55 05-04-07, 09:38 PM	Those aren't the only prestige classes you know. Compared to some of the prestige classes put out for D&D, even some of the non epic ones, this isn't the most powerful one. Just trust me, I own a lot of books and I love to read. There are worse things than this. If I had to choose between fighting someone woth one of those classes, and someone with this class, I'd bullrush this class. Just because there are worse doesn't make this okay, or even good. Everything compared to Pun-Pun is much better balanced, but that doesn't say much. The point is that this class doesn't match up with what an epic prestige class is supposed to be.
Grandmaster_Kane 05-05-07, 07:51 AM	and yet im inching closer and closer
bluemage55 05-05-07, 03:05 PM	and yet im inching closer and closer And that's good.
Aluroon 05-06-07, 03:00 AM	Blade Paragon Level -- Special 1 -- Truth of the Blade, Secret of the blade-Frenzy of the hunter - Bonus Feat 2 -- Flurry of death/ 1 day 3 -- Secret of the blade- Crippling strike - Bonus Feat 4 -- Flurry of death/ 2 day 5 -- Secret of the blade- Throw weapon- Bonus feat 6 -- Flurry of death/ 3 day 7 -- Secret of the blade- Art of the double cut - Bonus feat 8 -- Flurry of death/ 4 day 9 -- Secret of the blade- Faith in the blade - Bonus feat 10 -- Flurry of death/ 5 day Tell me I'm reading this incorrectly. Your granting all your unbalanced abilities and a bonus feat every other level?
Kaelas Bloodstorm 05-06-07, 04:30 AM	You deserve commendation for your effort, but that is about as much you'll get. Bonus epic feats every other level is perhaps the only thing that a Figher has that keeps him in the game anymore. You taking the only thing Fighters are good at away from them shows the imbalance inherent in the progression. I would limit the bonus epic feat progression to once every four or five levels. Anymore and it would be too much. I didn't bother to read what exactly the abilities are, given the feedback I think I shouldn't have to. Keep your flurry of death at once a day with another use every 4 levels. Same goes for every other ability instead of granting them as an ability to be used as and when the character wishes to. Once that is done, perhaps we can see how to further improve this PrC.
Grandmaster_Kane 05-06-07, 01:44 PM	Tell me I'm reading this incorrectly. Your granting all your unbalanced abilities and a bonus feat every other level? actually im trying to phase out crippling strike and throw weapon as they are kinda gay woot everybody check it our now it is still a bit powered but not uber like it was i think it is actually useable now
Holy_Beholder 05-08-07, 10:00 PM	Bring the HD down to a d8 like a ranger, since it has the same dual wielding base. You might want to give Blade Weave back, at say +2 deflection bonus, since 5 is a dead level.
Grandmaster_Kane 05-09-07, 03:17 PM	Bring the HD down to a d8 like a ranger, since it has the same dual wielding base. You might want to give Blade Weave back, at say +2 deflection bonus, since 5 is a dead level. ok thanks but the hp is because it was originally a fighter class but i suppose i could make it a urban ranger fighter class lol
Holy_Beholder 05-09-07, 08:19 PM	Why is it still +10? +10 is excessive to say the least. Even at epic levels, every point counts for something. Maybe +1/2 Blade Paragon level.
Grandmaster_Kane 05-10-07, 11:01 AM	Dude at epic levels +10 isnt excessive ok ill make you a deal if you can get someone else to post here that they agree with you ill change it
Aluroon 05-10-07, 02:04 PM	+10 at one level is a bit excessive. It would be better as a scaling ability (equal to 1/2 class level maybe).
Grandmaster_Kane 05-10-07, 04:08 PM	K done I think this is a nice class now. What about you?
Holy_Beholder 05-10-07, 05:21 PM	Blade weave doesn't work for melee then? I personally like this class a lot now.
Aluroon 05-11-07, 02:58 PM	I like it, except for the fact it grants 4 bonus feats in 10 levels. Reduce it to 1/4, starting at 4th level.
Grandmaster_Kane 05-11-07, 04:32 PM	Woot it is finally mostly done i changed the bonus progression and i had to edit the blade weave feat a bit so that 7 wasnt a dead level other than that is think it is pretty good Try it out in your campaigns and tell me how it works out
bluemage55 05-11-07, 04:43 PM	You have yet to explain how this prestige class has any relation whatsoever with Drow. Are you suggesting that only drow can learn such maneuvers?
Holy_Beholder 05-11-07, 05:43 PM	The relation to the drow is Drizzt.
bluemage55 05-11-07, 07:43 PM	The relation to the drow is Drizzt. As far as I know, Drizzt has displayed no abilities limited only to the drow, besides his racial traits. Drizzt's 3.5 writeup has levels in fighter, barbarian, and ranger. In no way does this class represent him, except maybe to give him a frenzy beyond that of most epic barbarians (which makes no sense from a flavor standpoint). I'm fairly certain that proeficiency with bladework is available to all races.
Grandmaster_Kane 05-11-07, 09:10 PM	hmmm... how about this The blade paragon clas is the epitome of all martail classes (supposedly) it is only availible to drow beacuse it is a class that can only be learned by thous whose patron god is Selvetarm becuase it is her gift to her poeple Selvetarm is the drow god of Battle Prowess & Bloodlust and is extremly racist Perhaps i should add that to the class
Holy_Beholder 05-12-07, 08:18 AM	As far as I know, Drizzt has displayed no abilities limited only to the drow, besides his racial traits. Drizzt's 3.5 writeup has levels in fighter, barbarian, and ranger. In no way does this class represent him, except maybe to give him a frenzy beyond that of most epic barbarians (which makes no sense from a flavor standpoint). I'm fairly certain that proeficiency with bladework is available to all races. 1 Drizzt 3.5 write up sucks, 2 there is absolutely no reason to include barbarian, 3 blade paragon fits him really well. Although this probably shouldn't be drow only since Artemis Entriri would probably have the same classes as drizzt, with rogue and assassin thrown in.
Taeldrin Laesrash 05-12-07, 09:07 AM	It doesn't have to be drow-only. That'd make the class make much more sense. If you wanted a specialty templar of Selvetarm, it'd be much different. Going off what I know, it'd have, maybe: ~Increasing specialty in the heavy mace (Favored weapon) ~A rage-like ability that increases Strength and Dexterity (Something like the Wildrunner's Primal Scream). ~A battle-scream type thing for when they deliver a death blow. ~Limited spell progression for clerics or anti-pallys who enter (5/10?) ~With all this, bonus feats maybe every four, even five, levels. Flavorful, yet balanced, abilties related to the subject (Selvetarm and his bloodlust in battle). I'll fill this in more for a better idea. EDIT: Oh, yeah, also? Selvetarm's a guy, Grandmaster Kane.
Kaelas Bloodstorm 05-12-07, 09:51 AM	The amount of Drow love saturating the basic premise of this PrC baffles me to no end. If this is a free for all PrC and Drizzt has all full 10 levels of this to symbolise his prowess while other masters are probably into the 8th or 9th level would be better.
Grandmaster_Kane 05-12-07, 12:53 PM	Ok im confused should i 1) Make it non drow class and instead make it a class you have to learn from a) a Older more powerful blade paragon or b) A appifiny from a hard life of battle or 2) Destroy my work so far and rework it so that it is a drow only cleric class?
Aluroon 05-12-07, 04:39 PM	1 Drizzt 3.5 write up sucks, 2 there is absolutely no reason to include barbarian, 3 blade paragon fits him really well. Although this probably shouldn't be drow only since Artemis Entriri would probably have the same classes as drizzt, with rogue and assassin thrown in. There is no reason for Drizzt to be epic level. Thus far the best write up of him I've seen is this one. http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5768&
bluemage55 05-12-07, 06:20 PM	1 Drizzt 3.5 write up sucks, 2 there is absolutely no reason to include barbarian, 3 blade paragon fits him really well. Although this probably shouldn't be drow only since Artemis Entriri would probably have the same classes as drizzt, with rogue and assassin thrown in. Barbarian is an important part. Or have you not read about Drizzt falling into the Hunter in order to improve his combat prowess, gaining remarkable combat ability and resilience to pain?
bluemage55 05-12-07, 06:24 PM	hmmm... how about this The blade paragon clas is the epitome of all martail classes (supposedly) it is only availible to drow beacuse it is a class that can only be learned by thous whose patron god is Selvetarm becuase it is her gift to her poeple Selvetarm is the drow god of Battle Prowess & Bloodlust and is extremly racist Perhaps i should add that to the class That sounds like a total BS excuse, as the class has nothing to do with Selvetarm (who, for the record, is male and has never been demonstrated to be racist). There is no reason that the epitome of all martial classes is to be limited to drow, except that drow happen to be your pet race and you want an excuse to make them better. The ability to learn to fight more effectively has nothing to do with race, and is more appropriately exemplified by the fighter, warblade, and swordsage classes than this terrible concoction.
Holy_Beholder 05-12-07, 07:02 PM	Drizzt needs to be epic level. There is no way he isn't epic level. He singlehandedly defeated a balor in 30 seconds. Then he played a major part in defeating him in horrible conditions when he had a powerful artifact(and trust me, you don't want to fight balors with powerful artifacts)
bluemage55 05-12-07, 07:39 PM	You forget that Errtu has some sort of strange weakness against Icingdeath that allows him to be defeated with a single stab. Having an auto-kill weapon against a balor hardly makes Drizzt epic.
Holy_Beholder 05-12-07, 07:45 PM	Icing Death penetrated his damage resistance. That is hardly a strange weakness. Twinkle was useless, since it didn't penetrate DR.
Grandmaster_Kane 05-12-07, 08:11 PM	There is no reason for Drizzt to be epic level. Thus far the best write up of him I've seen is this one. http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5768& That drizzt is epic 18 char levels + the 2 level powerful race modifier That sounds like a total BS excuse, as the class has nothing to do with Selvetarm (who, for the record, is male and has never been demonstrated to be racist). There is no reason that the epitome of all martial classes is to be limited to drow, except that drow happen to be your pet race and you want an excuse to make them better. The ability to learn to fight more effectively has nothing to do with race, and is more appropriately exemplified by the fighter, warblade, and swordsage classes than this terrible concoction. First of all if you read my later post you would know that is have pretty much decided that it isnt a drow only class and am just thinking of changes to make Second considering Selveterm is choatic evil and a drow I am pretty sure that he is racist along with 90% of other drow (excluding drizzt and worshippers of Ellistree(sp?))
Masker 05-12-07, 08:42 PM	The problem with this class is lack of focus. It has two different types of rage, each better than a Barbarian's, without requiring any investment in levels of rage-related classes. It can fight better with two weapons than a ranger of TWF fighter, requiring only the most basics of such feats. It grants bonus feats from the fighter list (including fighter exclusive feats, it seems) in addition of all that I already said. It gets more extra attacks per round that a warblade expert in Tiger Claw. Check what are the prerequisites for Dervish, Tempest and Frenzied Berserker. Your class, at the very least, should require as much dedication to enter it that what a character would need to do to enter all three classes, and them some more.
Grandmaster_Kane 05-12-07, 09:26 PM	The problem with this class is lack of focus. It has two different types of rage, each better than a Barbarian's, without requiring any investment in levels of rage-related classes. It can fight better with two weapons than a ranger of TWF fighter, requiring only the most basics of such feats. It grants bonus feats from the fighter list (including fighter exclusive feats, it seems) in addition of all that I already said. It gets more extra attacks per round that a warblade expert in Tiger Claw. Check what are the prerequisites for Dervish, Tempest and Frenzied Berserker. Your class, at the very least, should require as much dedication to enter it that what a character would need to do to enter all three classes, and them some more. Looked throu my books and reposted this better be focused enough for you because this class needs like 20 feats lol
bluemage55 05-12-07, 11:03 PM	Second considering Selveterm is choatic evil and a drow I am pretty sure that he is racist along with 90% of other drow (excluding drizzt and worshippers of Ellistree(sp?)) There is no correlation between chaotic evil and racism. Further, every racial deity is biased towards their own race to some degree. This does not change the fact that Selvetarm has never been portrayed as particularly racist or not, so you are "pretty sure" based on nothing. My main point, though, is that if you want the class to be a templar class for followers of Selvetarm (which by definition would be drow), the class better be focused around Selvetarm's portfolio. Simply giving the class every powerful ability you can come up with that you think others would accept doesn't cut it.
Grandmaster_Kane 05-13-07, 09:08 AM	Dude get with the program if you had even looked at the sheet you would no it no longer has anything to do with Selvetarm Late on the uptake much? Also it isnt Chaotic evil that makes you racist it is the fact that they are drow and it is a intergril (sp?) part of there society
Taeldrin Laesrash 05-13-07, 09:55 AM	Also it isnt Chaotic evil that makes you racist it is the fact that they are drow and it is a intergril (sp?) part of there society Most Chaotic Evil don't discriminate; they hate all people equally. Prejudice is just one form of evil, and happens to be exemplified in the drow (Honestly, it's more Lawful Evil).
SokenzanMarauder 05-13-07, 01:38 PM	That drizzt is epic 18 char levels + the 2 level powerful race modifier Incorrect, he would be ECL 20. Level 20 is not epic. You are epic at 21+. -Gene
Grandmaster_Kane 05-13-07, 03:23 PM	Incorrect, he would be ECL 20. Level 20 is not epic. You are epic at 21+. -Gene aggh somantics whatever i "guess" your right
Kaelas Bloodstorm 05-14-07, 09:32 PM	aggh somantics whatever i "guess" your right I 'guess' you just don't get it.
Masker 05-17-07, 10:25 PM	I want to see the flavour for this class.
Grandmaster_Kane 05-19-07, 09:04 AM	ask and you shall receive
bluemage55 05-23-07, 06:21 PM	The more I read about this class, the more I'm reminded of it's riotous heart, like this class: Dragoon Nobles with guts, warriors with spirit these are what Dragoons are. Though this class cannot use spells there are many better abilities it can use. Usually when a person shows signs of being a Dragoon they are masters with swords, spears or staffs, and bows. These Characters can leap over enemy lines and may be mistaken for outraged fighters in battle. The reason for this is because they attack with fury. People of riotous heart usually become Dragoons because they help the needy, are never hasty, and can put up with almost anybody. NPC Dragoons may be found in huge strongholds with important officials. They may be a high-ranking officer in an army. Hit Dice: D10 Requirements To qualify to be a Dragoon A Character must follow the following criteria. Race: Human, Half-Elf, Elf. Ability Scores: Strength: 14 Dexterity: 13 Intelligence: 12 Charisma: 14 Feats: Toughness, Quick draw. Jump: 4 ranks Class Skills A Dragoons Class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Jump (Str), Craft (Int), Ride (Dex), Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Balance (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Heal (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex). Class Features All of the following are the features of the class Dragoon. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Dragoon is Proficient with all Simple and Martial Weapons and all types of armor. Dragon Sword: The Dragoon may use various Techniques that all must be done holding a sword. Volcano: you attack 4 times and divide it in half then round up. 2 handed critical hit: you perform a critical hit if you hit your enemy but you lose your shield bonus until your next round. 1 handed critical hit: same as the 2 handed version but you keep your shield bonus. Hyper Quadra Slash: you attack in a row four times none of these may be critical. Harpoon: you may use your sword for piercing damage instead of slashing Jumping Quadra Slash: you attack four times in a row but the last hit is critical. Spinning Slash: you attack 5 times in a row none may be critical. Boomerang: you may throw your sword 20 feet it will come back to you. Boomerang Slash: same as boomerang but you may hit someone after this. Omni Slash: you attack all enemy in a 5 foot radius of you 3 times each the 3rd hit for each enemy is critical. Dog Friend: Use the dog abilities in the Monster Manual for its status. Along with the normal dog’s abilities it gains these extras. Dragoon Level Bonus HD Natural Armor Str. Adjust Int Special 1 to 5 1 .+1 .+1 5 Empathic Link, share saving throw 5 to 10 3 .+2 .+2 7 speak with Dragoon 10 to 13 4 .+3 .+3 9 13 to 20 5 .+4 .+4 10 Command other dogs 20 + 7 .+5 .+5 12 Spell Resistance Bahamut Wish: One time ever at level 20 a character may wish for one of the following Winged Bahamut Scale Mail: Fly at normal speed with good maneuverability protection from fire, water, and electricity damage. Dragon Scale Mail of the Deep: one element immunity. May Breath water and converse with water animals. It is also immune to pressure. Sword of Bahamut: Great Sword that does 3D6 + 5 damage.
Grandmaster_Kane 05-23-07, 06:22 PM	Oh ive seen that one mine is better lol
Geraturatu 05-29-07, 10:13 AM	Wow, the class has progressed a long way sinc I was last on. :) You're doing pretty well actually.
Grandmaster_Kane 05-29-07, 10:42 AM	Wow, the class has progressed a long way sinc I was last on. :) You're doing pretty well actually. thank you
Grandmaster_Kane 07-05-07, 05:40 PM	Why did this die? I decided to finish what I started. Anybody have any other complaints about this class other than the flavour?
Drew1369r 07-06-07, 12:51 AM	No one has any more input... its a good looking class and I would allow it within my game... I have actually learned alot by reading this post and watching the progression. You got alot of good input and it looks like you are done. Nice work Kane!
Grandmaster_Kane 07-06-07, 08:23 AM	Drew you just made me weep tears of happiness