Post/Author/DateTime	Post
boatmanj 05-08-07, 05:12 PM	Can anyone tell me what the save on a Bulwark of the Great Dragon's breath weapon attack is? I can't figger it out. From the SRD: Bulwark of the Great Dragon: This +6 heavy shield bears the image of a dragon’s head. Three times per day, the bearer of the shield can command it to belch forth a breath weapon of the appropriate type. The range of this breath weapon is 80 feet (if a line) or 40 feet (if a cone). Regardless of the type, the breath weapon deals 20d6 points of damage. In addition, the shield provides the bearer with resistance 50 to the energy type that matches its breath weapon. To determine what type of dragon shield is found, roll d% and consult the following table: d% Color Breath 01–10 Black Line of acid 11–20 Blue Line of lightning 21–30 Brass Line of fire 31–40 Bronze Line of lightning 41–50 Copper Line of acid 51–60 Gold Cone of fire 61–70 Green Cone of corrosive (acid) gas 71–80 Red Cone of fire 81–90 Silver Cone of cold 91–100 White Cone of cold Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, protection from energy; Market Price: 1,612,970 gp; Cost to Create: 806,570 gp + 26,128 XP
ASuperHero 05-08-07, 05:42 PM	It doesen't say that a Ref save halves the damage, so I'd assume that no Save DC is needed.
boatmanj 05-08-07, 05:44 PM	So just take 20d6 and like it?
ASuperHero 05-08-07, 05:48 PM	Seems that way to me. I guess that if you felt there had to be a save, the standard Breath Weapon DC (10+1/2 HD+Con mod) would work. 20d6 damage 3/day isn't all that hot in Epic levels. Its nice, don't get me wrong, but an Energy Immunity spell stops it, and you can't wield a 2-handed weapon. No save allowed makes this a fairly good item all-in-all.
Kord's Boon 05-08-07, 06:07 PM	Though the srd seems to imply that this damage is automatic, it’s reasonable to assume this is simply an oversight on the part of Wotc. As a rule of thumb, if an action is to harm an opponent the victim will either get a save, or you must overcome its Ac via an attack roll (and yes, I know there is magic missile; however the original version of the spell during the development of 3.0 did allow a save, and was latter changed due to fan complaints). As it is the bulwark of the “great dragon” I imagine the save DC would be somewhere in the range given for great wyrm dragons, about 38. Alternatively ASuperHero’s calculation works perfectly well.
bluemage55 05-08-07, 07:10 PM	The save DC is determined by the item creation rules. A breakdown of the item yields this: +12 equivalent shield = 1,440,000 masterwork heavy steel shield = 170 breath weapon power = 172,800 Accounting for the 3/day usage yields the unlimited use price as 288,000 gp. Dividing by 1,800 gp for a command-word item gives you 160,000 gp. Since the caster level is 20, the power is counted as an 8th-level spell equivalent: 20*8*1,800*3/5 = 172,800 gp, matching the above figure. Thus the save DC is calculated normally as for an 8th-level spell in an item, which gives you DC 22. On a side note, the [energy name] ward abilities for epic armor and shields is in need of a revision. In 3.0, the energy resistance abilities were equivalent bonuses, but in 3.5, they are now a flat cost-increase, and the epic versions should be changed to match. Adding a single energy immunity to a suit of armor or a shield should cost only 360,000 gp, far less than a +6 bonus would be. Given that, here is the revised shield: Bulwark of the Great Dragon: This +6 heavy shield bears the image of a dragon’s head. Three times per day, the bearer of the shield can command it to belch forth a breath weapon of the appropriate type. The range of this breath weapon is 80 feet (if a line) or 40 feet (if a cone). Regardless of the type, the breath weapon deals 20d6 points of damage. Creatures caught in the area can attempt Reflex saves (DC 22) to take half damage. In addition, the shield provides the bearer immunity to the energy type that matches its breath weapon. To determine what type of dragon shield is found, roll d% and consult the following table: d% Color Breath 01–10 Black Line of acid 11–20 Blue Line of lightning 21–30 Brass Line of fire 31–40 Bronze Line of lightning 41–50 Copper Line of acid 51–60 Gold Cone of fire 61–70 Green Cone of corrosive (acid) gas 71–80 Red Cone of fire 81–90 Silver Cone of cold 91–100 White Cone of cold Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, protection from energy; Market Price: 892,970 gp; Cost to Create: 446,570 gp + 18,988 XP.
fnord 05-08-07, 10:15 PM	The save DC is determined by the item creation rules. <snip> You're begging the question. There's no reason to assume that the "spell equivalent" would allow a save. You can make a philosophical or balance argument that it should allow a save, but simply saying that "this is how saves are calculated so this is what it's save is" doesn't float. As a rule of thumb, if an action is to harm an opponent the victim will either get a save, or you must overcome its Ac via an attack roll. Wrong, at least as a deciding factor. In addition to Magic Missile, Ice Storm does direct damage with no save and no to-hit roll. Acid Fog and Wall of Thorns can also be used that way, albeit with AC reducing damage from Wall of Thorns. And that's just the ones that deal direct damage. Waves of Exhaustion and Fatigue inflict a detrimental condition with no save and no attack roll, as does Prayer. The Power Words and Holy Word set use other conditions to determine efficacy (remaining hp or hd), but again no save and no attack roll.
kalstrand 05-08-07, 10:27 PM	The save DC is determined by the item creation rules. A breakdown of the item yields this: +12 equivalent shield = 1,440,000 masterwork heavy steel shield = 170 breath weapon power = 172,800 Accounting for the 3/day usage yields the unlimited use price as 288,000 gp. Dividing by 1,800 gp for a command-word item gives you 160,000 gp. Since the caster level is 20, the power is counted as an 8th-level spell equivalent: 20*8*1,800*3/5 = 172,800 gp, matching the above figure. Thus the save DC is calculated normally as for an 8th-level spell in an item, which gives you DC 22. On a side note, the [energy name] ward abilities for epic armor and shields is in need of a revision. In 3.0, the energy resistance abilities were equivalent bonuses, but in 3.5, they are now a flat cost-increase, and the epic versions should be changed to match. Adding a single energy immunity to a suit of armor or a shield should cost only 360,000 gp, far less than a +6 bonus would be. Given that, here is the revised shield: Bulwark of the Great Dragon: This +6 heavy shield bears the image of a dragon’s head. Three times per day, the bearer of the shield can command it to belch forth a breath weapon of the appropriate type. The range of this breath weapon is 80 feet (if a line) or 40 feet (if a cone). Regardless of the type, the breath weapon deals 20d6 points of damage. Creatures caught in the area can attempt Reflex saves (DC 22) to take half damage. In addition, the shield provides the bearer immunity to the energy type that matches its breath weapon. To determine what type of dragon shield is found, roll d% and consult the following table: d% Color Breath 01–10 Black Line of acid 11–20 Blue Line of lightning 21–30 Brass Line of fire 31–40 Bronze Line of lightning 41–50 Copper Line of acid 51–60 Gold Cone of fire 61–70 Green Cone of corrosive (acid) gas 71–80 Red Cone of fire 81–90 Silver Cone of cold 91–100 White Cone of cold Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, protection from energy; Market Price: 892,970 gp; Cost to Create: 446,570 gp + 18,988 XP. As far as the 3.5 update book is concerned nothing needs changed about the armor abilities listed or the shield.
Kord's Boon 05-08-07, 11:19 PM	Wrong, at least as a deciding factor. In addition to Magic Missile, Ice Storm does direct damage with no save and no to-hit roll. Acid Fog and Wall of Thorns can also be used that way, albeit with AC reducing damage from Wall of Thorns. And that's just the ones that deal direct damage. Waves of Exhaustion and Fatigue inflict a detrimental condition with no save and no attack roll, as does Prayer. The Power Words and Holy Word set use other conditions to determine efficacy (remaining hp or hd), but again no save and no attack roll. Which again, is why I qualified my statement as “a rule of thumb” and not an absolute. I don’t claim to be a R.A.W. guru but in this case I felt the intent was fairly transparent and wanted to note that in the crushing majority of cases, you do in fact receive a save or have the benefit of your AC to avoid deleterious effects.
bluemage55 05-09-07, 12:45 AM	As far as the 3.5 update book is concerned nothing needs changed about the armor abilities listed or the shield. I'm not referring to the update book. I'm referring to a necessary revision that was left out in the slipshod job that the designers did on the Epic SRD and the Epic portion of the update book.
dragon221284 05-09-07, 01:31 AM	there is no save :)
bluemage55 05-09-07, 01:33 AM	there is no save :) Due to an error.
fnord 05-09-07, 04:52 PM	Which again, is why I qualified my statement as “a rule of thumb” and not an absolute. Which is great if one is designing your own spells/items/powers, but not terribly useful as a rebuttal to an actual rule. I felt the intent was fairly transparent That's an odd thing to feel, given that nothing actually mentions a save and it's hardly gamebreakingly overpowered if there's not. I'm not saying it's transparently clear that there should be no save, the lack of a save is a bit jarring, but it's hardly clear that there should be one. bluemage55, why do you feel that a revision is needed? Do you think that it is overpowered without a save?
Witch 05-09-07, 04:54 PM	He's applying a save because such is consistent with all other breath weapons.
bluemage55 05-09-07, 05:07 PM	He's applying a save because such is consistent with all other breath weapons. Indeed.
Kord's Boon 05-09-07, 05:38 PM	Which is great if one is designing your own spells/items/powers, but not terribly useful as a rebuttal to an actual rule. Fnord, I appreciate your insistence on rigor, but as some point you must allow individuals to make reasonable statements, to allow approximation. What I was attempting to do is come up with a satisfying solution to what the O.P. was asking, not as you say, attempting to rebut an actual rule. That's an odd thing to feel, given that nothing actually mentions a save and it's hardly gamebreakingly overpowered if there's not. I'm not saying it's transparently clear that there should be no save, the lack of a save is a bit jarring, but it's hardly clear that there should be one. The text for the Bulwark suggest the effect is analogous to a dragon’s breath weapon. As both Witch and Bluemage have said, the goal was to make things consistent. Do you have a spell or item to use as an example that deals a similar magnitude of automatic, unavoidable, inescapable damage that would give us reason to believe that this was an intended effect rather then an oversight? (and no, not falling damage)
Witch 05-09-07, 05:40 PM	To be fair, it's hardly inescapable. Immunity to said energy type might work, and the damage doesn't have that much of an impact at these levels.
Kord's Boon 05-09-07, 05:42 PM	To be fair, it's hardly inescapable. Immunity to said energy type might work, and the damage doesn't have that much of an impact at these levels. Given, I was not taking into account the effects of magic items, sub-types, ect.
fnord 05-09-07, 05:53 PM	Fnord, I appreciate your insistence on rigor, but as some point you must allow individuals to make reasonable statements, to allow approximation. This is hardly a slavish adherence to the literal text, at the expense of reason (Try (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=546612) this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=777565) for (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801) that (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=142565)). The text doesn't mention a saving throw, so no saving throw is allowed. What I was attempting to do is come up with a satisfying solution to what the O.P. was asking, not as you say, attempting to rebut an actual rule. The answer to the O.P.'s question is "as written, there is no save for the Bulwark of the Great Dragon's breath weapon attack, however..." To your credit, in your original reply, you get that across. And it would be reasonable to have allow save (and reasonable not to). But I want to get it across that it is not the way the rules are written, and it's not obvious that it's the way the rules were intended. Do you have a spell or item to use as an example that deals a similar magnitude of automatic, unavoidable, inescapable damage that would give us reason to believe that this was an intended effect rather then an oversight? (and no, not falling damage) Intensified Ice Storm = 60 damage v. average damage of 70 from the Bulwark? Twinned Swarm of Crystals augmented to 20 pp (65 average damage, and with no energy type)?
bluemage55 05-09-07, 06:31 PM	The text doesn't mention a saving throw, so no saving throw is allowed. And the text is not always correct. The ELH and Epic SRD are rife with errors that require corrections. The text implies that the shield is meant to duplicate those draconic breath weapons, and as such, should allow a Reflex saving throw as those very same breath weapons do. If you acknowledge that the shield was meant to duplicate those breath weapons, then denying that the Reflex save is appropriate is slavish adherence to the text, in a false assumption that the text is correct even when it does not make sense.
fnord 05-09-07, 06:50 PM	And the text is not always correct. The ELH and Epic SRD are rife with errors that require corrections. But the assumption that the text is correct it presents serious problems is reasonable. 20d6 elemental damage for no save or attack roll is possibly reasonable, in a way that negative LA or the blatantly wrong epic spell examples are not. The text implies that the shield is meant to duplicate those draconic breath weapons, and as such, should allow a Reflex saving throw as those very same breath weapons do. This is the strongest argument for allowing a saving throw, in my mind. But it doesn't emulate them exactly: golds and reds breath d10s, silvers d8s, and coppers and blacks d4s, the size is for a Large dragon, but no dragon gets a 20d breath until at least huge. I'm not saying it's unreasonable to claim that a save was intended, or to allow a save. But claiming that's the only reasonable interpretation is unreasonable.
bluemage55 05-10-07, 12:36 AM	I'm not saying it's unreasonable to claim that a save was intended, or to allow a save. But claiming that's the only reasonable interpretation is unreasonable. I consider it unreasonable to believe that the designers intended for a breat-weapon duplicating shield to not allow a Reflex save, because of the sheer improbability. It might be possible, but it doesn't seem very likely at all. In addition to the argument I gave above, consider spells that don't allow saving throws. The very examples you gave are magic missile, which follows a target unerringly, ice storm, which you cannot dodge anymore than you could dodge a downpour of rain, acid fog, which you cannot dodge anymore than you can dodge the fog around you. A reasonable case can be made for all of them to be no-save because they cannot be dodged (wall of thorns allow no save because you are actually choosing to go move through it, rather than avoiding it). Breath weapons, on the other hand, can always be avoided with a Reflex save, and one coming from a shield is no less avoidable than one coming from the mouth of a dragon.
fnord 05-10-07, 09:29 AM	IThe very examples you gave are magic missile, which follows a target unerringly, ice storm, which you cannot dodge anymore than you could dodge a downpour of rain, acid fog, which you cannot dodge anymore than you can dodge the fog around you. A reasonable case can be made for all of them to be no-save because they cannot be dodged (wall of thorns allow no save because you are actually choosing to go move through it, rather than avoiding it). You can evade a Fire Storm but not an Ice Storm. You can escape the sudden conjuring of a Blade Barrier, but not a Wall of Fire or Wall of Thorns (which allow no save even if conjured directly on top of someone). You can evade a cone of fire or acid, but not a cone of "thousands of tiny crystal shards". Breath weapons, on the other hand, can always be avoided with a Reflex save, and one coming from a shield is no less avoidable than one coming from the mouth of a dragon. They all do allow saves, but some are are Fortitude (Iron Golem, Gold Dragon Alternate) and some are Will (Bronze Dragon Alternate). And none come from 1.6M gp magical items. And designers can make apparently strange decisions. Ray of Exhaustion allows a save (which many rays don't, c.f. Ray of Enfeeblement, Scorching Ray) while Waves of Exhaustion does not, when (as others have noted) most area of effect spells do. Similar ability can work differently.
Thorsljon 05-11-07, 09:19 AM	I consider it unreasonable to believe that the designers intended for a breat-weapon duplicating shield to not allow a Reflex save, because of the sheer improbability. It might be possible, but it doesn't seem very likely at all. In addition to the argument I gave above, consider spells that don't allow saving throws. The very examples you gave are magic missile, which follows a target unerringly, ice storm, which you cannot dodge anymore than you could dodge a downpour of rain, acid fog, which you cannot dodge anymore than you can dodge the fog around you. A reasonable case can be made for all of them to be no-save because they cannot be dodged (wall of thorns allow no save because you are actually choosing to go move through it, rather than avoiding it). Breath weapons, on the other hand, can always be avoided with a Reflex save, and one coming from a shield is no less avoidable than one coming from the mouth of a dragon. I have to agree with bluemage55, Witch and Kord's Boon's: the lack of saving throw in the text comes from the slipshod manner in which Wizards assembled the Epic Level Handbook--by far the sloppiest job of any Wizards D&D book I have seen--and as the shield's breath weapons replicate dragon breath weapons that allow a Reflex saving throw, the shield's breath weapons also allow a Reflex saving throw. :)
Thorsbjorn 05-11-07, 09:25 AM	The save DC is determined by the item creation rules. A breakdown of the item yields this: +12 equivalent shield = 1,440,000 masterwork heavy steel shield = 170 breath weapon power = 172,800 Accounting for the 3/day usage yields the unlimited use price as 288,000 gp. Dividing by 1,800 gp for a command-word item gives you 160,000 gp. Since the caster level is 20, the power is counted as an 8th-level spell equivalent: 20*8*1,800*3/5 = 172,800 gp, matching the above figure. Thus the save DC is calculated normally as for an 8th-level spell in an item, which gives you DC 22. On a side note, the [energy name] ward abilities for epic armor and shields is in need of a revision. In 3.0, the energy resistance abilities were equivalent bonuses, but in 3.5, they are now a flat cost-increase, and the epic versions should be changed to match. Adding a single energy immunity to a suit of armor or a shield should cost only 360,000 gp, far less than a +6 bonus would be. Given that, here is the revised shield: Bulwark of the Great Dragon: This +6 heavy shield bears the image of a dragon’s head. Three times per day, the bearer of the shield can command it to belch forth a breath weapon of the appropriate type. The range of this breath weapon is 80 feet (if a line) or 40 feet (if a cone). Regardless of the type, the breath weapon deals 20d6 points of damage. Creatures caught in the area can attempt Reflex saves (DC 22) to take half damage. In addition, the shield provides the bearer immunity to the energy type that matches its breath weapon. To determine what type of dragon shield is found, roll d% and consult the following table: d% Color Breath 01–10 Black Line of acid 11–20 Blue Line of lightning 21–30 Brass Line of fire 31–40 Bronze Line of lightning 41–50 Copper Line of acid 51–60 Gold Cone of fire 61–70 Green Cone of corrosive (acid) gas 71–80 Red Cone of fire 81–90 Silver Cone of cold 91–100 White Cone of cold Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, protection from energy; Market Price: 892,970 gp; Cost to Create: 446,570 gp + 18,988 XP. I support you in adding the Reflex save DC and the updated market price and cost to create to your 3.5 Revision thread. :)