Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TeMpOrAl 06-11-07, 10:48 AM	Can epic-spells be created with no exp or gold maybe a loop hole or somethin i'd appreciate it if some one tells me where i can find such a trick
TeMpOrAl 06-11-07, 10:53 AM	Anyone
rob_douglas 06-11-07, 11:26 AM	There are some, but I am loathe to tell you since they are really cheesy tricks. The one that is really by the spirit of the rules is a Rod of Excellent Magic. The cheapest trick in the book is to combine the Fortify seed to grant a creature SR1 (or 0) for a net of -28 to your spellcraft DC. Abusing Rituals with followers from Leadership or fanatical followers from high charisma/diplomacy, or simulacrums are also good ways to overpower epic spellcasting. However, you can't make it cost 0 - as even a DC 0 spell should cost 1/2 as much as a DC1 spell, same as Level 0 spells costs vs Level 1 spell costs. I hope you are asking so you can stop these kinds of abuses, and not so you can perpetrate them on some unsuspecting DM. ROB PS this is a forum, not a chat room, so you will not normally get timely replies. Please refrain from bumping your post for 24 hours after you ask a question. That is how long it may take before someone has the time, energy and interest to respond. Thanks.
TeMpOrAl 06-11-07, 12:18 PM	Okay, Thanx
bluemage55 06-11-07, 01:14 PM	Keep in mind that crap like this will only work if your DM's brain is made of marshmallows, in which case, just use Pun-Pun to destroy everything long before epic.
IceFractal 06-11-07, 02:19 PM	You can definitely reduce an Epic spell to DC 1, even without cheese (although it would have to a very weak and/or highly mitigated spell). However, the results of reducing it to 0 or lower are not well defined, so best to stay away from there - isn't DC 1 cheap enough? Keep in mind that the most useful mitigation methods (such as extra time and assistants), are only practical for buff spells. In fact, unless you're overflowing with wealth, Epic spells are best used for buffing purposes - leave the destruction to metamagiced standard spells. Incidentally, the Rod of Excellent Magic can negate the research costs, but at the price of expending a very pricy magic item. If you spell is expensive enough, however, it may be worth it.
Starmage21 06-11-07, 02:27 PM	People always complain about being able abuse the shiat out of followers that help in epic spellcasting rituals, but then they never let the PCs in their groups feel the burn of paying for that huge spell that requires more than the party at hand to contribute to, and then it gets dispelled in the field. It CAN be abused, but only if your DM has no brain.
Far_Traveler 06-11-07, 04:36 PM	Ya see that's the thing Starmage, the price of an epic spell is 9,000xspellcraftDC, so anything that decreases the DC (i.e. abusing followers) also reduces the price.
bluemage55 06-11-07, 05:09 PM	Epic spell abuse is generally a result of the poorly written epic spell section. The designers anticipated that DMs would carefully watch over the creation process, and thus didn't leave that many guidelines to prevent abuse like 1,000,000 follower rituals. For that reason, I have included certain errata within my revision thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=702299#post10076884). The rod of excellent magic also creates some problems, and it would seem as if the original intention was to substitute the power inherent in the rod (the 26,000 xp) in place of the experience cost, but only up to that 26,000 xp amount. Thus, it should look like this: Excellent Magic: Once per day when casting a nonepic or epic spell that has an experience point component, the rod supplies up to 2,000 XP, not the caster. If more experience points are required to cast the spell, the caster provides them. As a special use of the rod, the caster can substitute the power inherent in the rod for up to 26,000 experience points for the development cost of an epic spell. Doing so drains all the power from the rod, rendering it useless. Caster Level: 21st; Prerequisites: Craft Rod, Craft Epic Rod; Market Price: 650,000 gp; Cost to Create: 325,000 gp + 26,000 XP.
Starmage21 06-12-07, 10:56 AM	Ya see that's the thing Starmage, the price of an epic spell is 9,000xspellcraftDC, so anything that decreases the DC (i.e. abusing followers) also reduces the price. Yeah, it reduces the price. Consider you take your DC0 epic spell that requires all your followers to cast. You go on an adventure where you run into some encounter that results in your wonderful DC0 epic spell to be dispelled. Now, youve got to gather all your followers up to get your wonderful buff back again, and well you might not have the time to recast it. cheap /= useful If you wanna use a ritual, you can only really count on the immediate PC's magical abilities to contribute. Ive had a player attempt to design a heavily ritualized epic spell before, and as soon as I ran the above drawback to said cool ritual spell by him, he dropped the whole idea.
Witch 06-12-07, 11:07 AM	Yeah, it reduces the price. Consider you take your DC0 epic spell that requires all your followers to cast. You go on an adventure where you run into some encounter that results in your wonderful DC0 epic spell to be dispelled. Now, youve got to gather all your followers up to get your wonderful buff back again, and well you might not have the time to recast it. cheap /= useful If you wanna use a ritual, you can only really count on the immediate PC's magical abilities to contribute. Ive had a player attempt to design a heavily ritualized epic spell before, and as soon as I ran the above drawback to said cool ritual spell by him, he dropped the whole idea. Apply a ward against disjunction and common dispell spells. There, fixed. It's free buffs. Even if it does get dispelled on occassion, the player suffers no noticeable loss of wealth or XP.
bluetooth 06-12-07, 06:44 PM	If the DM wants it dispelled it'll be dispelled. But I do agree that epic spell abuse seems to be a major potential flaw. I'm heavy into optimization, and I've been accused of being a munchkin/power gamer at non-epic levels, but in my attempts to develope epic spells for a game that will be going epic in maybe a few months or as much as a year, I've been policing myself quite extensively. For instance, my Elven High Mage will be creating a mythal over his nation that allows people use of create food and water, Endure Elements and a whole host of other utility spells that will quickly rocket his nation into incredible prosperousness. (He's an elf ruling a somewhat backward human nation. It was an interesting story but I digress). I find myself unsure of what mitigating factors it would be appropriate to actually have (let alone that wouldn't be broken). Further, I've been considering a Mythal with the mitgating factor: Change from area to personal. That one I'm going to have to be even more careful about.
Starmage21 06-12-07, 10:33 PM	Apply a ward against disjunction and common dispell spells. There, fixed. It's free buffs. Even if it does get dispelled on occassion, the player suffers no noticeable loss of wealth or XP. random NPC lackey #1 dispels the ward using a scroll created by the BBEG. BBEG or Random NPC lackey #2 dispels the buff. Epic characters have epic reputations. a BBEG should know what he's up against.
bluemage55 06-12-07, 11:56 PM	random NPC lackey #1 dispels the ward using a scroll created by the BBEG. BBEG or Random NPC lackey #2 dispels the buff. You cannot dispel the ward against disjunciton and dispels except with another epic spell, and that epic dispel must be coming from someone with a failry close caster level.
bluetooth 06-13-07, 12:01 AM	fairly close yes, although that feat that lets you take 10 on caster level checks (can't remember the name, Complete Arcane I think it's from though) helps a LOT. Still, if the spell costs nothing with a laster sacrifice it can just be recast later. My suggestion would be to decimate his followers. Suddenly you don't have the enormous legion of 1st level wizards you need to get the ritual off and your Leadership feat just took an insane hit.
Starmage21 06-13-07, 10:36 AM	You cannot dispel the ward against disjunciton and dispels except with another epic spell, and that epic dispel must be coming from someone with a failry close caster level. you may not be able to target anything within the ward for a dispel, but the ward itself is dispellable. The only seed that resists nonepic dispels is Mythal.
Witch 06-13-07, 10:47 AM	you may not be able to target anything within the ward for a dispel, but the ward itself is dispellable. Prove it. I held the opinion. Superior argumentation convinced me of the opposite.
rob_douglas 06-13-07, 06:38 PM	Prove it. I held the opinion. Superior argumentation convinced me of the opposite. Dispelling, Epic Spells, and Antimagic Field A lucky nonepic spellcaster casting greater dispel magic might be able to dispel an epic spell. The game mechanics do not change, and epic spells do not occupy any privileged position allowing them to resist being dispelled other than their presumably high caster level. Likewise, epic spells using the dispel seed can dispel nonepic spells. Such epic spells use the same game mechanic: The check to dispel is 1d20 + a specified number (usually dispeller’s level), and the DC is 11 + the spellcaster’s level. However, once you hit 30th level, it is no longer possible with Greater Dispel. Reaving Dispel would still work up to 34th level. At 35th level, only Epic Spells even stand a chance of dispelling you. Then I realized you were talking about the Ward, so: The ward could be brought down by a targeted dispel magic spell. The Ward protects the target or the area of the emanation, but not itself. ROB
bluemage55 06-13-07, 08:19 PM	The Ward protects the target or the area of the emanation, but not itself. That's the specific rules debate in question. Witch argues that a ward does protect itself, and I agree. Even if you don't allow a ward to protect itself, simply put up two wards and they protect each other. ;)
Loren Pechtel 06-13-07, 10:40 PM	The rod of excellent magic also creates some problems, and it would seem as if the original intention was to substitute the power inherent in the rod (the 26,000 xp) in place of the experience cost, but only up to that 26,000 xp amount. Thus, it should look like this: Unless the intent was to provide a means of capping the XP cost of creating an epic spell?
rob_douglas 06-13-07, 11:09 PM	Well, I would still allow a target dispel to dispel it, since that is specifically allowed, regardless of the ward chosen. :) However, in that case, go with an Epic Spell with the Destroy seed. Wait, I can't remember, can you make yourself immune to the Dispel seed, an Epic Dispel spell, or not any epic spells? OK, I don't think we are talking about epic spells. It does suggest you could Ward against all Epic spells at +200DC, but to ward against a specific Epic Dispel spell that anyone might cast depends on whether the DM makes specific Epic spells, or let's people craft their own, so you can use the Specific spell ward. There should be a way to ward against an effect - it seems weird that to avoid dispelling, you really need to ward against dispel, greater dispel, reaving dispel, dispelling screen, greater dispelling screen, and wall of dispel magic (why is this a separate spell from dispelling screen?) And really then, what about a researched, individual, Rob's Special Dispel? Are you warded from that? I am sure I can add something that makes it unique. How about fireworks and a whistling sound. ;) I would also want to be able to Ward against Force effects, with a simple cost, or Death Effects, Mind Affecting Effects. You know? That all should have been in the Ward. Regardless, I understand the debate now. Thanks, ROB
bluemage55 06-13-07, 11:27 PM	Unless the intent was to provide a means of capping the XP cost of creating an epic spell? That would be an odd choice, considering that it would completely mitigate the need to burn any XP at all for epic spells when you can just buy rods. Thus the (questionably) powerful high DC epic spells would become even more powerful? It also runs into the question of how you could get more XP out of something than you put into it. Free XP is probably not balanced.
bluemage55 06-13-07, 11:30 PM	However, in that case, go with an Epic Spell with the Destroy seed. Wait, I can't remember, can you make yourself immune to the Dispel seed, an Epic Dispel spell, or not any epic spells? Techincally you can make yourself immune to any epic spell, but since every epic spell is customized for the user, it's going to be almost impossible to obtain such an immunity. You might choose to gain immunity to Superb Dispelling, but all of my epic spells have names like 1952-235-2358. Good luck guessing the right number.
Witch 06-14-07, 07:01 AM	However, once you hit 30th level, it is no longer possible with Greater Dispel. Reaving Dispel would still work up to 34th level. At 35th level, only Epic Spells even stand a chance of dispelling you. Then I realized you were talking about the Ward, so: The Ward protects the target or the area of the emanation, but not itself. ROB I was mostly thinking of the important one though, Disjunction, which I believe cannot bring a Ward down if warded against.
BelRex 06-14-07, 09:02 AM	Would you allow a player to change one of the factors of creating an epic spell? Reduce the exp, if they split the difference between time to create and gold. I remember something called the research triad, a feat that allowed you to do that. Was in the netbook of feats or something. You balance out one reduction for an increase in another, or split between the remaining two.
rob_douglas 06-14-07, 11:31 AM	@Bluemage - yeah, that was my point I think. What makes it the same spell - name, formula (if I guess the formula, can I make it that?), or individual use. I suppose I could choose your dispelling spell after you hit me with it once. Which is why I think immunity to dispelling effects should be in there - so you don't have to guess. @Witch - definitely MDJ can't take it down if warded against, since it can't target that particular spell, by the RAW. I think I would allow MDJ to take down an Epic Ward, just as it can an AMF. I do not believe that a ward spell should protect itself - another Ward maybe, but not the same one. And casting the same spell twice won't do it either. Why, because I just don't want complete immunity to all dispelling IMC. @BelRex - Are you asking if as a Dm we would allow a player to start with a published epic spell and then customize it by changing the factors, while leaving the cost the same? In general, that is allowed by the rules - the Epic Spells are just examples, you can tweak them on a per caster basis when that character researches the spell. As a DM, I am inclined to believe there exist certain epic spells, with certain formulae, and that the research is to find it. I may tweak some published spells in particular ways, but in my view - that is the way to cast that spell. If you want a custom effect, I will come up with a spell that does it, and you can decide if you like the spell and all its necessary pieces. I think that is the best I can do at controlling loophole epic spells, and making sure I approve. You don't have to predetermine what those spells are, but work with the caster when he is researching. For example, suppose a Wizard PC wants a spell that gives +40 to INT for 3 months, with a ritual. I decide that there is an Epic spell to boost INT, but only to +20, and it only lasts a day, but it is highly resistant to dispelling, and requires XP as well as ritual casting. The Player decides if he wants to take that or not. ROB