Changing Type [Archive] - Wizards Community

Changing Type [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bluetooth
06-12-07, 12:54 AM If you change your type (through any means, ritual, plot device, epic spell, etc) to what degree does this effect your character in terms of game mechanics?

Obviously if you change your type to undead you get d12s for all your HD, no Con score, etc, etc.

But what if you change your type to Outsider? To Fey? I doubt your HD change, given that there are Outsiders listed with class levels and they get the HD of their classes. I would imagine the same is true of Fey.

So what traits do you pick up? Do become immortal if you become an Outsider? Do you get low-light vision if you become fey?

Sorry, but I'm still very new at epic. (But I have been doing my homework, it's just that often my questions are fairly specific and don't always show up in FAQs)

Thanks
Bernat
06-12-07, 04:35 AM http://www.roles.es/sovelior_sage_srd/monsterTypes.html

Look at the aberration example. When you become one, you gain aberration traits, but not aberration features. Those features belong totalyl to racial HD (not class HD). If you don't have any racial HD (a Ghaele has outsider racial HD, but an Aasimar doesn't), then you don't need to bother about aberration features.

I hope this helps.
bluetooth
06-12-07, 09:04 AM Well the Aasimar also has the naitive subtype, but in general is that true for types other than Aberation? (that if you have the type but not racial HD than you get the traits but not the features?)
Taeldrin Laesrash
06-12-07, 09:16 AM That's the case for all types. However, generally, when you become an Outsider, a mortal also is a Native Outsider.
Bernat
06-12-07, 09:35 AM Yes.

Attack bonus, skill points, hit dice type (d6, d8, d10, etc) and saves are things tied to racial HD or HD gained from class levels.

If you have racial HD, then those HD's attack bonus, skill points, etc depend on your race.

When you gain a class level, that class determines the type of attack bonus, skill points, etc.

For example: Troll with ranger levels (http://www.roles.es/sovelior_sage_srd/monstersTtoZ.html#troll)

HD: 6d8 (6 giant HD) + 6d8 (6 ranger levels) = 12d8
BAB: 4 (6 giant HD) + 6 (6 ranger levels) = +10
Fort Save: 5 (6 giant HD) + 5 (6 ranger levels) = +10 + 6 (Con) = +16
Refl Save: 2 (6 giant HD) + 5 (6 ranger levels) = +7 + 1 (Dex) = +8
Will Save: 2 (6 giant HD) + 2 (6 ranger levels) = +4 + 2 (Wis) + 2 (Iron Will) = +8
Skill Points: (2+0)*(6+3) (6 giant HD, 4x for fist HD) + (6+0)*(6) (6 ranger levels) = 18 + 36 = 54

Hope that helps. :)
bluetooth
06-12-07, 10:51 AM Well that much I was clear on. I have a fairly strong grasp on the rules pre-epic, but my question had to do with changing type and in particular in situations that aren't entirely straitforward particularly in situation that just don't happen pre-epic (such as an epic spell).

For instance, does a human who changes his type to a fey become immortal and gain low-light vision (though I think now from what Taeldrin said the answer is Yes) or does an elf who changes himself into an outsider and does not give himself the naitive subtype no longer need to eat, sleep or breath?

I'm pretty sure the answers to these are Yes, from what's been said.
Bernat
06-12-07, 06:17 PM When your type changes, you acquire all the traits from the new type (don't forget to remove all traits from its previous race, such as human's bonus feat and skill points or elf's secret doors sense, ability score bonuses, etc.). And as Taeldrin Laesrash noticed:

Native Subtype: A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.

So an elf who turns into an outsider would probably need to eat and sleep.
bluetooth
06-12-07, 06:30 PM See, I understand where your coming from, but to my knowledge there's nothing specifically stating that if you change type from humanoid(elf) to Outsider you automatically pick up the native subtype.

Sure it makes sense, and I'm sure most DMs would go ahead and tack that on, but it never actually says to do it expressly in the rules. (At least the Transform seed doesn't, I'll have to go back and look to see if Savage Species mentions it)

So yeah, I understand what makes sense, but not what is and is not specified by the rules. I mean, what if a tiefling wizard wanted to remove the naitive subtype from himself with a ritual or epic spell? Further, if my example of the elf who changes himself inot an Outsider specifically didn't want to pick up the naitive subtype I don't see anything in the fortify seed that forces him to take it.

It makes me wonder why more epic level spellcasters don't just make an extremely cheap epic spell that makes them immortal by changing their type into fey/outsider/abberation/plant/whatever. It certainly works when you change into an undead, why not those other types?
Bernat
06-13-07, 05:59 AM I think it's not in the rules that you gain a creature's racial traits when you change your type either.

Why don't you just pick an Elan for your character if immortality is what you're looking for?
Taeldrin Laesrash
06-13-07, 09:35 AM Why don't you just pick an Elan for your character if immortality is what you're looking for?

Flavor or the Charisma penalty.

As far as the Native Outsider thing goes:

A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.

Since this is a Prime mortal becoming an outsider, applying it just common sense. Besides, why debate? You only gain from it.
bluetooth
06-13-07, 12:56 PM Well I want to stress that immortality is not the main focus of what i'm talking about, but since we're on that topic, are native outsiders (such as teiflings and aasimars) actually immortal? I thought they had roughly the same age categories as humans.

And there are other benefits much more tangible in game play such a the breathing/eating/sleeping issues. More than that though, I'm simply trying to understand the mechanics of changing type, because I'm very new to epic and so is my DM and I don't want to create overpowered epic spells.

My character is an elf, and may be changing his type to Fey, and I need to know what automatically comes with that and what I have to add manually, such as immunity to natural and magical aging (...ok so maybe immortality is part of it, but it's still not the main focus).
bluemage55
06-13-07, 06:19 PM Native outsiders do age and die normally, although their lifespans may be longer than a normal human's.
bluetooth
06-14-07, 07:20 PM Yeah, that's what I had always thought. Thus there is something to be gained from becoming an Outsider without the Native subtype. It doesn't expressly say that you don't age, but I have a hard time seeing a creature who doesn't needed air, food, or water dying of old age.

In an epic spell that was posted to an earlier question I added "immortal traits" which I assume to mean immunity to natural and magical aging was added in as a +30 factor to the fortify seed. To make this instantaneous would be +300, and thus seems like it might be balanced.

Also, since I like adding in these kinds of details to my setting, I want to have an epic power that changes a person into an Elan as a part of their origins (after all, they are born and not made. sure it could be a ritual like the necropolitans, but why not an epic psionic power?)
rob_douglas
06-14-07, 09:51 PM I am not sure that Outsiders don't age. In 2E, the Warriors of Heaven supplement included rules for playing celestials, and it was put forth that Archons did die, but Aasimon's (Angels) didn't.

I believe the sage has said to assume they have very long life spans, but are not immortal. It is up to the DM to decide how long very long is. Yes, the sage punted.

The issue of immortal vs. mortal is also relevant to the discussion of gods and their abilities. Some say they automatically affect mortals. Most people here have taken that to mean anyone that does not have a Divine Rank. Those are the true Immortals.

ROB
bluetooth
06-15-07, 02:05 AM well the Eldritch Disciple (Complete Mage) gains immunity to natural and magical aging at 10th level. I guess I just want to grant that ability with an epic spell.
El_Machinae
06-15-07, 06:26 AM If you change to a Fey, you get the traits listed under fey:
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monsterTypes.html

Just do a ctrl+f for "fey"
Taeldrin Laesrash
06-15-07, 11:18 AM I am not sure that Outsiders don't age. In 2E, the Warriors of Heaven supplement included rules for playing celestials, and it was put forth that Archons did die, but Aasimon's (Angels) didn't.

I believe the sage has said to assume they have very long life spans, but are not immortal. It is up to the DM to decide how long very long is. Yes, the sage punted.

All exemplars, in the Planescape products, were described as being made of soulstuff, and thus existing forever. Warriors of Heaven, I believe, has been decried for inconsistancy (The book also says that the CG exemplars, Eladrin, only formed through live birth).
rob_douglas
06-16-07, 11:49 PM Being of soulstuff does not require existing forever, not necessarily in that state. When the upper planes need workers, warriors, or whatever, they are created from soulstuff and infused with the power of good. But there is no reason that action has to be eternal. There is nothing wrong with chaotic exemplars having live birth either - it makes them closer to the experiences of those they are to sheperd. I don't see any inconsistencies, or requirements of immortality.

ROB
El_Machinae
06-19-07, 09:50 AM Each god, too, might have a finite amount of soulstuff that they have jurisdiction over at any one time. While they're probably happy to let the Solars remain as Solars (showing a fairly efficient use of soulstuff) there are probably lesser spirits with which the god could make better use of, if it needed to.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bluetooth 06-12-07, 12:54 AM	If you change your type (through any means, ritual, plot device, epic spell, etc) to what degree does this effect your character in terms of game mechanics? Obviously if you change your type to undead you get d12s for all your HD, no Con score, etc, etc. But what if you change your type to Outsider? To Fey? I doubt your HD change, given that there are Outsiders listed with class levels and they get the HD of their classes. I would imagine the same is true of Fey. So what traits do you pick up? Do become immortal if you become an Outsider? Do you get low-light vision if you become fey? Sorry, but I'm still very new at epic. (But I have been doing my homework, it's just that often my questions are fairly specific and don't always show up in FAQs) Thanks
Bernat 06-12-07, 04:35 AM	http://www.roles.es/sovelior_sage_srd/monsterTypes.html Look at the aberration example. When you become one, you gain aberration traits, but not aberration features. Those features belong totalyl to racial HD (not class HD). If you don't have any racial HD (a Ghaele has outsider racial HD, but an Aasimar doesn't), then you don't need to bother about aberration features. I hope this helps.
bluetooth 06-12-07, 09:04 AM	Well the Aasimar also has the naitive subtype, but in general is that true for types other than Aberation? (that if you have the type but not racial HD than you get the traits but not the features?)
Taeldrin Laesrash 06-12-07, 09:16 AM	That's the case for all types. However, generally, when you become an Outsider, a mortal also is a Native Outsider.
Bernat 06-12-07, 09:35 AM	Yes. Attack bonus, skill points, hit dice type (d6, d8, d10, etc) and saves are things tied to racial HD or HD gained from class levels. If you have racial HD, then those HD's attack bonus, skill points, etc depend on your race. When you gain a class level, that class determines the type of attack bonus, skill points, etc. For example: Troll with ranger levels (http://www.roles.es/sovelior_sage_srd/monstersTtoZ.html#troll) HD: 6d8 (6 giant HD) + 6d8 (6 ranger levels) = 12d8 BAB: 4 (6 giant HD) + 6 (6 ranger levels) = +10 Fort Save: 5 (6 giant HD) + 5 (6 ranger levels) = +10 + 6 (Con) = +16 Refl Save: 2 (6 giant HD) + 5 (6 ranger levels) = +7 + 1 (Dex) = +8 Will Save: 2 (6 giant HD) + 2 (6 ranger levels) = +4 + 2 (Wis) + 2 (Iron Will) = +8 Skill Points: (2+0)(6+3) (6 giant HD, 4x for fist HD) + (6+0)(6) (6 ranger levels) = 18 + 36 = 54 Hope that helps. :)
bluetooth 06-12-07, 10:51 AM	Well that much I was clear on. I have a fairly strong grasp on the rules pre-epic, but my question had to do with changing type and in particular in situations that aren't entirely straitforward particularly in situation that just don't happen pre-epic (such as an epic spell). For instance, does a human who changes his type to a fey become immortal and gain low-light vision (though I think now from what Taeldrin said the answer is Yes) or does an elf who changes himself into an outsider and does not give himself the naitive subtype no longer need to eat, sleep or breath? I'm pretty sure the answers to these are Yes, from what's been said.
Bernat 06-12-07, 06:17 PM	When your type changes, you acquire all the traits from the new type (don't forget to remove all traits from its previous race, such as human's bonus feat and skill points or elf's secret doors sense, ability score bonuses, etc.). And as Taeldrin Laesrash noticed: Native Subtype: A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep. So an elf who turns into an outsider would probably need to eat and sleep.
bluetooth 06-12-07, 06:30 PM	See, I understand where your coming from, but to my knowledge there's nothing specifically stating that if you change type from humanoid(elf) to Outsider you automatically pick up the native subtype. Sure it makes sense, and I'm sure most DMs would go ahead and tack that on, but it never actually says to do it expressly in the rules. (At least the Transform seed doesn't, I'll have to go back and look to see if Savage Species mentions it) So yeah, I understand what makes sense, but not what is and is not specified by the rules. I mean, what if a tiefling wizard wanted to remove the naitive subtype from himself with a ritual or epic spell? Further, if my example of the elf who changes himself inot an Outsider specifically didn't want to pick up the naitive subtype I don't see anything in the fortify seed that forces him to take it. It makes me wonder why more epic level spellcasters don't just make an extremely cheap epic spell that makes them immortal by changing their type into fey/outsider/abberation/plant/whatever. It certainly works when you change into an undead, why not those other types?
Bernat 06-13-07, 05:59 AM	I think it's not in the rules that you gain a creature's racial traits when you change your type either. Why don't you just pick an Elan for your character if immortality is what you're looking for?
Taeldrin Laesrash 06-13-07, 09:35 AM	Why don't you just pick an Elan for your character if immortality is what you're looking for? Flavor or the Charisma penalty. As far as the Native Outsider thing goes: A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep. Since this is a Prime mortal becoming an outsider, applying it just common sense. Besides, why debate? You only gain from it.
bluetooth 06-13-07, 12:56 PM	Well I want to stress that immortality is not the main focus of what i'm talking about, but since we're on that topic, are native outsiders (such as teiflings and aasimars) actually immortal? I thought they had roughly the same age categories as humans. And there are other benefits much more tangible in game play such a the breathing/eating/sleeping issues. More than that though, I'm simply trying to understand the mechanics of changing type, because I'm very new to epic and so is my DM and I don't want to create overpowered epic spells. My character is an elf, and may be changing his type to Fey, and I need to know what automatically comes with that and what I have to add manually, such as immunity to natural and magical aging (...ok so maybe immortality is part of it, but it's still not the main focus).
bluemage55 06-13-07, 06:19 PM	Native outsiders do age and die normally, although their lifespans may be longer than a normal human's.
bluetooth 06-14-07, 07:20 PM	Yeah, that's what I had always thought. Thus there is something to be gained from becoming an Outsider without the Native subtype. It doesn't expressly say that you don't age, but I have a hard time seeing a creature who doesn't needed air, food, or water dying of old age. In an epic spell that was posted to an earlier question I added "immortal traits" which I assume to mean immunity to natural and magical aging was added in as a +30 factor to the fortify seed. To make this instantaneous would be +300, and thus seems like it might be balanced. Also, since I like adding in these kinds of details to my setting, I want to have an epic power that changes a person into an Elan as a part of their origins (after all, they are born and not made. sure it could be a ritual like the necropolitans, but why not an epic psionic power?)
rob_douglas 06-14-07, 09:51 PM	I am not sure that Outsiders don't age. In 2E, the Warriors of Heaven supplement included rules for playing celestials, and it was put forth that Archons did die, but Aasimon's (Angels) didn't. I believe the sage has said to assume they have very long life spans, but are not immortal. It is up to the DM to decide how long very long is. Yes, the sage punted. The issue of immortal vs. mortal is also relevant to the discussion of gods and their abilities. Some say they automatically affect mortals. Most people here have taken that to mean anyone that does not have a Divine Rank. Those are the true Immortals. ROB
bluetooth 06-15-07, 02:05 AM	well the Eldritch Disciple (Complete Mage) gains immunity to natural and magical aging at 10th level. I guess I just want to grant that ability with an epic spell.
El_Machinae 06-15-07, 06:26 AM	If you change to a Fey, you get the traits listed under fey: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monsterTypes.html Just do a ctrl+f for "fey"
Taeldrin Laesrash 06-15-07, 11:18 AM	I am not sure that Outsiders don't age. In 2E, the Warriors of Heaven supplement included rules for playing celestials, and it was put forth that Archons did die, but Aasimon's (Angels) didn't. I believe the sage has said to assume they have very long life spans, but are not immortal. It is up to the DM to decide how long very long is. Yes, the sage punted. All exemplars, in the Planescape products, were described as being made of soulstuff, and thus existing forever. Warriors of Heaven, I believe, has been decried for inconsistancy (The book also says that the CG exemplars, Eladrin, only formed through live birth).
rob_douglas 06-16-07, 11:49 PM	Being of soulstuff does not require existing forever, not necessarily in that state. When the upper planes need workers, warriors, or whatever, they are created from soulstuff and infused with the power of good. But there is no reason that action has to be eternal. There is nothing wrong with chaotic exemplars having live birth either - it makes them closer to the experiences of those they are to sheperd. I don't see any inconsistencies, or requirements of immortality. ROB
El_Machinae 06-19-07, 09:50 AM	Each god, too, might have a finite amount of soulstuff that they have jurisdiction over at any one time. While they're probably happy to let the Solars remain as Solars (showing a fairly efficient use of soulstuff) there are probably lesser spirits with which the god could make better use of, if it needed to.