Colossuses [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Colossuses [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Serge_P
06-22-07, 09:05 AM What is the market price for an iron colossus? (Or to be more correct, how much does it cost to pre-order and buy from a specialist?)

Is it 1000000 + ((50000xp x 25 gp/xp)= 1250000gp) = 2250000gp?

And if my char buys 300 Iron colossuses, gives them a spear, a tower shield, an adamantine full-plate armour, a heavy x-bow and 10 adamantine bolts each, and hires or acquires a cohort with high Int and high BaB to act as Unit aim-boy, puts them in a 100x3 formation, and make the colossuses fire a volley of bolts, how big area do they hit?

Is it 100 squares x 3 squares?

Or is it 600 squares x 18 squares?

Both make sense, 100x3 because its 300 bolts, and 600 x 18 because the bolts are so huge that the impact on the ground makes colossal damage.
Grandmaster_Kane
06-22-07, 09:29 AM Why would Colossi need armor?
Bernat
06-22-07, 09:42 AM From SRD (http://www.roles.es/sovelior_sage_srd/magicItemsCreation.html):
Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp and 1/25 of the base price in XP. For many items, the market price equals the base price.

Treating colossus as magic items, and applying the reverse formula, you would get:

Base price = X
GP to create = 1/2 * X; X = 2 * GP = 2 * 1.000.000 = 2.000.000
XP to create = 1/25 * X; X = 25 * XP = 25 * 50.000 = 1.250.000

Now for golems the same happens. XP cost is lower than price, while GP cost is higher. Sometimes XP-aproximated cost is closer than GP', sometimes the opposite, so let's just take the value in between.

(2.000.000 + 1.250.000) / 2 = 1.625.000 gp

Wow, that's a cheap colossus. I guess that would be a good reason to leave it unpriced. Another one would be that unless you're on a heavy epic campaign, no wizard is going to sell theirs, and much less mass produce them for selling.
bluemage55
06-22-07, 03:56 PM The OP's price calculation is correct. It costs 2,250,000 gp per colossus.

That's not cheap. The price for 300 colossi is the same amount of wealth as everything owned by a 65th level party combined. There's also the issue of finding 300 casters of at least 35th level willing to spend 50,000 xp each on creating a colossus.

The rules for mass combat and fighting in formation are covered by the Miniatures Handbook and Heroes of Battle.
Bernat
06-22-07, 05:23 PM Oh, so are colossus not priced in the same way as magic items or is the SRD wrong?

EDIT:
I've rechecked SRD's golems (I only have ECS with me, and homunculus "are never sold") and market price for them is 2*(cost_to_create - body_cost). However, there are two exceptions to this pricing.

First one is the greater stone golem that has no body cost stated, although following this formula it should be 7k gp. This shouldn't be a problem because the greater stone golem does not follow the rules for calculating the cost of creating advanced golems that are given at the beginning of the golem entry (it is 84k gp short).

The second is the iron golem. The formula for this one is market_price = 2*cost_to_create - body_cost. This is probably an errata, someone substracted body cost after multiplying by 2.

Following this pricing method, Iron Colossus' price should be equal to 2*(1.000.000-100.500) = 1.799.000.
bluemage55
06-22-07, 07:37 PM The pricing for colossi is simply different than that of other golems.

The pricing does, however, follow the absolute rule that the final market price of any magic item, is the cost of all materials that go into it, plus the XP cost * 25. All forms of magic item and magic creature creation follow that formula, which in essence allows you to convert XP -> gp at a rate of 25 gp per 1 XP spent.
Bernat
06-22-07, 08:29 PM I'm sorry, but I fail to see this absolute formula (no offense intended).

I had a peek at a friend's Magic Item Compendium (still no book other than ECS for me) and I found this (pg 233, Crafting Magic Items from previous page):

Magic supplies for items always cost half of the base price in gp and 1/25 of the base price in XP. For many items, the market price equals the base price. For example, a cloak of elvenkind (http://www.roles.es/sovelior_sage_srd/magicItemsWI.html#cloak-of-elvenkind) has a market price (and a base price) of 2,500 gp. Making one costs 1,250 gp in raw materials plus 100 XP.

Now, 1250 + 25*100 = 3750 (higher than 2500). This confirms what I had assumed previously to your replies, that base price (usually market price) equals 2 times cost to create; and that the base price equals 25 times the xp cost.

This is supported by other items in the Magic Item Compendium (I've seen at least 10, all following these calculations). Take a look at the Ring of Communication (pg 122):

Price: 2.000 gp
Cost to create: 1.000 gp
XP to create: 80 xp

Again:
1000 + 25*80 = 3000 gp != Price
1000 * 2 = 2000 gp = Price
80 * 25 = 2000 gp = Price

Am I missing something obvious? Did I understand something wrong? :confused:

EDIT:

Btw, if "all forms of magic item and magic creature follow that formula", then "the pricing for colossi is not different than that of other golems" :D.
bluemage55
06-22-07, 09:23 PM The primary issue seems to be that for the colossi, the gp cost is lower than it should be, as the gp cost for most items is equal to 12.5 x the XP cost, plus the cost of extra materials such as a golem's body or the price of a masterwork weapon.

This may be a holdover from 3.0, but I won't be able to look at all my old books until later this weekend.

The main point I am making, however, is that the total market price for any item is the gold cost used in crafting plus the XP cost * 25. This was designed so that you can never profit from item creation, because you must pay 1 XP for each 25 gp you get, which is exactly how much each XP is worth.
Bernat
06-22-07, 09:52 PM Hehehe, I'm even more lost now.

The gp cost for colossi (at least for iron') is actually higher than 12'5 x XP cost. 1.000.000 gp vs 725.500 = (12'5*50.000 + 100.500). Maybe you mean that the xp cost is lower than it should be.

However, I agree with you that some (or most) epic material has been poorly updated to 3.5.

But, what is intriguing me is the method you use for calculating magic item costs, though not for being complicated. Is that a houserule?

By the rules (which I try to follow when calculating market price), you can still never profit for making magic items. You would at best trade your exp for money at a ratio of 12'5 gold back for each point of experience you spend.

Remember that all my talking involves how to calculate an item's market price from it's cost to create or xp to create. This doesn't mean that you must either spend the gold or the experience to create the magic item. Rules say that you must spend both cost to create and xp to create, but market price is only twice the cost to create or 25 times the xp to create (these two should be equal).

So, changing xp into gp at a rate of 1 x 25, a cloak of elvenkind (http://www.roles.es/sovelior_sage_srd/magicItemsWI.html#cloak-of-elvenkind) would cost you 1.250 gp + 25*100 = 3.750 gp to create. Market price is 2.500 gp, so you're in fact losing money there.

If you instead calculate market price following your houserule, market price would be 3.750 gp, and it would cost you the same when crafting than when buying from a merchant.

If anyone other than bluemage, at any point, finds out what I'm doing wrong, please tell me. I'm starting to get worried about this :).
Bernat
06-22-07, 10:27 PM Ok, I've found these two entries in the SRD, let's see if this helps (underlined what I found important for the case):

Market Price: This gold piece value, given following the word “Price,” represents the price someone should expect to pay to buy the item. The market price for an item that can be constructed with an item creation feat is usually equal to the base price plus the price for any components (material or XP).

Cost to Create: The next part of a notational entry is the cost in gp and XP to create the item, given following the word “Cost.” This information appears only for items with components (material or XP), which make their market prices higher than their base prices. The cost to create includes the costs derived from the base cost plus the costs of the components. Items without components do not have a “Cost” entry. For them, the market price and the base price are the same. The cost in gp is 1/2 the market price, and the cost in XP is 1/25 the market price.
Let's state a couple of concepts.

Market price: standard price that a merchant would charge for an item before applying any ad hoc modifier (like not liking PCs, or being on shortage of the item, or being a greedy NPC, etc).

Base price: price of an item before adding the cost of any material or XP component you need for the process of creating the item.

An example:
Ring of Three Wishes (http://www.roles.es/sovelior_sage_srd/magicItemsPRR.html#ring-of-three-wishes)

What we have:
Market Price: 97.950 gp
Cost to create: 11,475 gp + 15,918 XP

What we can calculate:
gp to create: 11.475
xp to create: 918
xp component: 15.000 (the xp component needed to cast 3 wishes)
base price = 22.950 gp
Market Price = base price + component price = [1 xp <=> 5 gp] = 22.950 + 15.000 * 5 = 22.950 + 75.000 = 97.950 gp

So, at least, rules are consistent, and I think you're confusing the xp component of creating an item with the xp you need to spend to create a magic item. All magic items cost xp to create, but not all items have spells involved that require an xp component (such as wish in the example).

You may ask "why 1 xp <=> 5 gp"? That's the extra cost for creating magic items that use spells that have an xp cost. Follow this link (http://www.roles.es/sovelior_sage_srd/magicItemsCreation.html):

Component ..................................... Extra Cost ........................................ ........ Example
Armor, shield, or weapon ..................... Add cost of masterwork item .......................... +1 composite longbow
Spell has material component cost ........ Add directly into price of item per charge5 ........ Wand of stoneskin
Spell has XP cost ............................... Add 5 gp per 1 XP per charge5 ....................... Ring of three wishes
Underlined is mine.

It's funny how I randomly picked the same example.
goro
06-22-07, 10:28 PM I don't know if this means anything, but;

Construction
The construction cost given for each colossus takes into account the physical body and all the materials and spell components that are consumed or become a permanent part of it. Except for the much tougher requirements, constructing a colossus is not unlike constructing a golem.
and
CONSTRUCTION
The cost to create given for each golem includes the cost of the physical body and all the materials and spell components that are consumed or become a permanent part of the golem. Creating a golem is essentially similar to creating any sort of magic item. However, a golem’s body includes costly material components that may require some extra preparation. The golem’s creator can assemble the body or hire someone else to do the job. The builder must have the appropriate skill, which varies with the golem variety.
Completing the golem’s creation drains the appropriate XP from the creator and requires casting any spells on the final day.
The creator must cast the spells personally, but they can come from outside sources, such as scrolls.
The characteristics of a golem that come from its nature as a magic item (caster level, prerequisite feats and spells, market price, cost to create) are given in summary form at the end of each golem’s description.
Note: The market price of an advanced golem (a golem with more Hit Dice than the typical golem described in each entry) is increased by 5,000 gp for each additional Hit Die, and increased by an additional 50,000 gp if the golem’s size increases. The XP cost for creating an advanced golem is equal to 1/25 the advanced golem’s market price minus the cost of the special materials required.

Also, wouldn't colossi be treated as epic magic items for purposes of price?
Bernat
06-22-07, 10:58 PM It does help a bit because I didn't recall that the indicated cost to create included spell components. I think too that colossus would use epic pricing, and this is probably something already included in the price (an iron golem costs 80.000 to create, an adamantine golem costs 500.000 to create). What I find funny is that the body cost for the iron golem is the same than the mithral golem :).

I haven't been able to find out how the calculate the market price yet. I will continue trying tomorrow, since here it's a bit late already.
bluemage55
06-22-07, 11:16 PM The big thing that you are overlooking, Bernat, is that there are sometimes additional raw material costs that are added to the price of an item, that are not considered as part of the "raw materials = 1/2 of total price"

For example, a +1 dagger is 2,302 gp.

If you were given the cost to create, you would get 1,302 gp and 80 xp. However, it would be erroneous to assume that the final price is 2,302 gp.

Rather, the way the price is calculated is the total cost for materials + the XP cost * 12.5, which is 1,302 + 80*12.5 = 2,302 gp. This formula is the only one that holds true regardless of extra costs.

The appropriate way to calculate the price is to take the total materials cost + 12.5 * XP cost, which for the iron collossus yields 1,625,000 gp.
Bernat
06-23-07, 03:59 AM But why do magic items in the SRD and MIC follow my pricing method? I know there are raw materials added to some magic item's cost, but in the case of the Ring of Three Wishes there was only raw XP costs. Do you see that all the magic items I've posted follow my pricing method?

Please tell me your example has a mistake and 1.302 + 80*25 = 3.302 or I find I may have some kind of color blindness applied to maths...
bluemage55
06-23-07, 04:55 AM My example has been fixed.
Bernat
06-24-07, 04:37 PM Back home again...

Ok, let's look at an example ("http://www.roles.es/sovelior_sage_srd/magicItemsAW.html#plate-armor-of-the-deep):
Plate Armor of the Deep: This +1 full plate is decorated with a wave and fish motif. The wearer of plate armor of the deep is treated as unarmored for purposes of Swim checks. The wearer can breathe underwater and can converse with any creature with a language that breathes water.

Moderate abjuration; CL 11th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, freedom of movement, water breathing, tongues; Price 24,650 gp; Cost 17,150 gp + 600 XP.

Rhino Hide: This +2 hide armor is made from rhinoceros hide. In addition to granting a +2 enhancement bonus to AC, it has a –1 armor check penalty and deals an additional 2d6 points of damage on any successful charge attack made by the wearer, including a mounted charge.

Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, bull’s strength; Price 5,165 gp; Cost 2,665 gp + 200 XP.

What would be the price for this item? 2.665 + 200 * 25 = 7.665 gp?

You haven't still answered my questions, so I'm starting to think that you have been joking all these posts (or you have no idea what you're talking about).

To the OP:

I've been trying to price golems under standard magic item pricing with no success, so I recommend you use the formula I provided above to price colossus (it works when determining market price of most of the golems). Price for Iron Colossus would be 1.799.000 gp.
goro
06-24-07, 07:39 PM An iron colossus’s body is sculpted from 150,000 pounds of pure iron. The colossus costs 1,000,000 gp to create, which includes 100,500 gp for the body.
Fairly obvious, +1,000,000 gp to total market price.

Assembling the body requires a successful Craft (armorsmithing) or Craft (weaponsmithing) check (DC 42).
Is there a price for craft checks?

The creator must be 35th level and able to cast epic spells. Completing the ritual drains 50,000 XP from the creator and requires cloudkill, geas/quest, limited wish, and polymorph any object.

Spell level*Caster level (Minimum caster level 35th, for Iron Colossus)*250 gp each spell.

Completing the ritual drains 50,000 XP from the creator
Does the 50,000 exp drained through the ritual include the exp cost from making the magic item, casting the listed spells, and casting the epic spells to give it life? Or a combination of any of those?

I can't think at the moment to complete my thought.
bluemage55
06-25-07, 02:31 AM You haven't still answered my questions, so I'm starting to think that you have been joking all these posts (or you have no idea what you're talking about).

I've been screwing up the whole time. :embarrass I got misled by the OP's post, and I've been saying and using *25, when it's actually *12.5.

The correct price for any item is:

Market Price = raw materials + 12.5 gp * XP cost

So by that calculation, the price for an iron colossus is 1,625,000 gp.
Bernat
06-25-07, 06:00 AM Glad we finally price items in the same way. I was going a bit crazy because noone confirmed my or your pricing method. So it was me saying green and you saying blue.

As for colossus pricing, that system isn't perfect either, but the difference between real price and price calculated using that formula is around 5%. That's enough for me, seeing as I haven't found a perfect method yet.

Goro, on regular magic items, XP required by spells is added to the XP cost to create. However, you need to separate both when calculating market price because the former is worth 5 gp per point and the later 12'5 gp per point. This can be easily seen in the example for the Ring of Three Wishes I posted a bit above.

However, I've been trying to apply this to pricing golems to no success.
rob_douglas
06-25-07, 11:21 AM The problem with the Iron Colossus is that it does not follow normal magic item pricing/cost to create. Look at the costs - 1Million, but 100,500 for raw materials. That would mean that cost to create without the materials (from which normal XP costs are figured) is 899,500. Double that and divide by 25 - that is the normal XP cost of creating a magic item with a base price of 1,799,000. You get 71,960. But the Colossus only costs 50,000XP. So it is cheaper to create than a similar priced magic item.

Normal magic items have
base price = material cost + (cost to create)*2
= material cost + (XP cost)*25
but neither of those work for the Colossus, because of the discrepency in XP to creation costs above. The cost that you need to use, that uses both, is
base price = material cost + cost to create + (XP Cost *12.5)
which comes out to 1,625,000

as you all finally discovered, so you are only including the two factors once each. Interestingly, if the XP cost had been above 71,960, then the additional XP would be added in at a mere 5gp per XP, such as in the ring of wishes, where you pay 25,000gp for each 5,000XP spent.

Which I think is where we all are now, and we are on the same page - sorry if I had to reiterate it all, but I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. :)

ROB
bluemage55
06-25-07, 02:54 PM Interestingly, if the XP cost had been above 71,960, then the additional XP would be added in at a mere 5gp per XP, such as in the ring of wishes, where you pay 25,000gp for each 5,000XP spent.

The 5 gp per 1 XP applies only when an item duplicates a spell that consumes XP, and only for the amount that comes from that spell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Serge_P 06-22-07, 09:05 AM	What is the market price for an iron colossus? (Or to be more correct, how much does it cost to pre-order and buy from a specialist?) Is it 1000000 + ((50000xp x 25 gp/xp)= 1250000gp) = 2250000gp? And if my char buys 300 Iron colossuses, gives them a spear, a tower shield, an adamantine full-plate armour, a heavy x-bow and 10 adamantine bolts each, and hires or acquires a cohort with high Int and high BaB to act as Unit aim-boy, puts them in a 100x3 formation, and make the colossuses fire a volley of bolts, how big area do they hit? Is it 100 squares x 3 squares? Or is it 600 squares x 18 squares? Both make sense, 100x3 because its 300 bolts, and 600 x 18 because the bolts are so huge that the impact on the ground makes colossal damage.
Grandmaster_Kane 06-22-07, 09:29 AM	Why would Colossi need armor?
Bernat 06-22-07, 09:42 AM	From SRD (http://www.roles.es/sovelior_sage_srd/magicItemsCreation.html): Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp and 1/25 of the base price in XP. For many items, the market price equals the base price. Treating colossus as magic items, and applying the reverse formula, you would get: Base price = X GP to create = 1/2 * X; X = 2 * GP = 2 * 1.000.000 = 2.000.000 XP to create = 1/25 * X; X = 25 * XP = 25 * 50.000 = 1.250.000 Now for golems the same happens. XP cost is lower than price, while GP cost is higher. Sometimes XP-aproximated cost is closer than GP', sometimes the opposite, so let's just take the value in between. (2.000.000 + 1.250.000) / 2 = 1.625.000 gp Wow, that's a cheap colossus. I guess that would be a good reason to leave it unpriced. Another one would be that unless you're on a heavy epic campaign, no wizard is going to sell theirs, and much less mass produce them for selling.
bluemage55 06-22-07, 03:56 PM	The OP's price calculation is correct. It costs 2,250,000 gp per colossus. That's not cheap. The price for 300 colossi is the same amount of wealth as everything owned by a 65th level party combined. There's also the issue of finding 300 casters of at least 35th level willing to spend 50,000 xp each on creating a colossus. The rules for mass combat and fighting in formation are covered by the Miniatures Handbook and Heroes of Battle.
Bernat 06-22-07, 05:23 PM	Oh, so are colossus not priced in the same way as magic items or is the SRD wrong? EDIT: I've rechecked SRD's golems (I only have ECS with me, and homunculus "are never sold") and market price for them is 2(cost_to_create - body_cost). However, there are two exceptions to this pricing. First one is the greater stone golem that has no body cost stated, although following this formula it should be 7k gp. This shouldn't be a problem because the greater stone golem does not follow the rules for calculating the cost of creating advanced golems that are given at the beginning of the golem entry (it is 84k gp short). The second is the iron golem. The formula for this one is market_price = 2cost_to_create - body_cost. This is probably an errata, someone substracted body cost after multiplying by 2. Following this pricing method, Iron Colossus' price should be equal to 2*(1.000.000-100.500) = 1.799.000.
bluemage55 06-22-07, 07:37 PM	The pricing for colossi is simply different than that of other golems. The pricing does, however, follow the absolute rule that the final market price of any magic item, is the cost of all materials that go into it, plus the XP cost * 25. All forms of magic item and magic creature creation follow that formula, which in essence allows you to convert XP -> gp at a rate of 25 gp per 1 XP spent.
Bernat 06-22-07, 08:29 PM	I'm sorry, but I fail to see this absolute formula (no offense intended). I had a peek at a friend's Magic Item Compendium (still no book other than ECS for me) and I found this (pg 233, Crafting Magic Items from previous page): Magic supplies for items always cost half of the base price in gp and 1/25 of the base price in XP. For many items, the market price equals the base price. For example, a cloak of elvenkind (http://www.roles.es/sovelior_sage_srd/magicItemsWI.html#cloak-of-elvenkind) has a market price (and a base price) of 2,500 gp. Making one costs 1,250 gp in raw materials plus 100 XP. Now, 1250 + 25100 = 3750 (higher than 2500). This confirms what I had assumed previously to your replies, that base price (usually market price) equals 2 times cost to create; and that the base price equals 25 times the xp cost. This is supported by other items in the Magic Item Compendium (I've seen at least 10, all following these calculations). Take a look at the Ring of Communication (pg 122): Price: 2.000 gp Cost to create: 1.000 gp XP to create: 80 xp Again: 1000 + 2580 = 3000 gp != Price 1000 * 2 = 2000 gp = Price 80 * 25 = 2000 gp = Price Am I missing something obvious? Did I understand something wrong? :confused: EDIT: Btw, if "all forms of magic item and magic creature follow that formula", then "the pricing for colossi is not different than that of other golems" :D.
bluemage55 06-22-07, 09:23 PM	The primary issue seems to be that for the colossi, the gp cost is lower than it should be, as the gp cost for most items is equal to 12.5 x the XP cost, plus the cost of extra materials such as a golem's body or the price of a masterwork weapon. This may be a holdover from 3.0, but I won't be able to look at all my old books until later this weekend. The main point I am making, however, is that the total market price for any item is the gold cost used in crafting plus the XP cost * 25. This was designed so that you can never profit from item creation, because you must pay 1 XP for each 25 gp you get, which is exactly how much each XP is worth.
Bernat 06-22-07, 09:52 PM	Hehehe, I'm even more lost now. The gp cost for colossi (at least for iron') is actually higher than 12'5 x XP cost. 1.000.000 gp vs 725.500 = (12'550.000 + 100.500). Maybe you mean that the xp cost is lower than it should be. However, I agree with you that some (or most) epic material has been poorly updated to 3.5. But, what is intriguing me is the method you use for calculating magic item costs, though not for being complicated. Is that a houserule? By the rules (which I try to follow when calculating market price), you can still never profit for making magic items. You would at best trade your exp for money at a ratio of 12'5 gold back for each point of experience you spend. Remember that all my talking involves how to calculate an item's market price from it's cost to create or xp to create. This doesn't mean that you must either spend the gold or the experience to create the magic item. Rules say that you must spend both cost to create and xp to create, but market price is only twice the cost to create or 25 times the xp to create (these two should be equal). So, changing xp into gp at a rate of 1 x 25, a cloak of elvenkind (http://www.roles.es/sovelior_sage_srd/magicItemsWI.html#cloak-of-elvenkind) would cost you 1.250 gp + 25100 = 3.750 gp to create. Market price is 2.500 gp, so you're in fact losing money there. If you instead calculate market price following your houserule, market price would be 3.750 gp, and it would cost you the same when crafting than when buying from a merchant. If anyone other than bluemage, at any point, finds out what I'm doing wrong, please tell me. I'm starting to get worried about this :).
Bernat 06-22-07, 10:27 PM	Ok, I've found these two entries in the SRD, let's see if this helps (underlined what I found important for the case): Market Price: This gold piece value, given following the word “Price,” represents the price someone should expect to pay to buy the item. The market price for an item that can be constructed with an item creation feat is usually equal to the base price plus the price for any components (material or XP). Cost to Create: The next part of a notational entry is the cost in gp and XP to create the item, given following the word “Cost.” This information appears only for items with components (material or XP), which make their market prices higher than their base prices. The cost to create includes the costs derived from the base cost plus the costs of the components. Items without components do not have a “Cost” entry. For them, the market price and the base price are the same. The cost in gp is 1/2 the market price, and the cost in XP is 1/25 the market price. Let's state a couple of concepts. Market price: standard price that a merchant would charge for an item before applying any ad hoc modifier (like not liking PCs, or being on shortage of the item, or being a greedy NPC, etc). Base price: price of an item before adding the cost of any material or XP component you need for the process of creating the item. An example: Ring of Three Wishes (http://www.roles.es/sovelior_sage_srd/magicItemsPRR.html#ring-of-three-wishes) What we have: Market Price: 97.950 gp Cost to create: 11,475 gp + 15,918 XP What we can calculate: gp to create: 11.475 xp to create: 918 xp component: 15.000 (the xp component needed to cast 3 wishes) base price = 22.950 gp Market Price = base price + component price = [1 xp <=> 5 gp] = 22.950 + 15.000 * 5 = 22.950 + 75.000 = 97.950 gp So, at least, rules are consistent, and I think you're confusing the xp component of creating an item with the xp you need to spend to create a magic item. All magic items cost xp to create, but not all items have spells involved that require an xp component (such as wish in the example). You may ask "why 1 xp <=> 5 gp"? That's the extra cost for creating magic items that use spells that have an xp cost. Follow this link (http://www.roles.es/sovelior_sage_srd/magicItemsCreation.html): Component ..................................... Extra Cost ........................................ ........ Example Armor, shield, or weapon ..................... Add cost of masterwork item .......................... +1 composite longbow Spell has material component cost ........ Add directly into price of item per charge5 ........ Wand of stoneskin Spell has XP cost ............................... Add 5 gp per 1 XP per charge5 ....................... Ring of three wishes Underlined is mine. It's funny how I randomly picked the same example.
goro 06-22-07, 10:28 PM	I don't know if this means anything, but; Construction The construction cost given for each colossus takes into account the physical body and all the materials and spell components that are consumed or become a permanent part of it. Except for the much tougher requirements, constructing a colossus is not unlike constructing a golem. and CONSTRUCTION The cost to create given for each golem includes the cost of the physical body and all the materials and spell components that are consumed or become a permanent part of the golem. Creating a golem is essentially similar to creating any sort of magic item. However, a golem’s body includes costly material components that may require some extra preparation. The golem’s creator can assemble the body or hire someone else to do the job. The builder must have the appropriate skill, which varies with the golem variety. Completing the golem’s creation drains the appropriate XP from the creator and requires casting any spells on the final day. The creator must cast the spells personally, but they can come from outside sources, such as scrolls. The characteristics of a golem that come from its nature as a magic item (caster level, prerequisite feats and spells, market price, cost to create) are given in summary form at the end of each golem’s description. Note: The market price of an advanced golem (a golem with more Hit Dice than the typical golem described in each entry) is increased by 5,000 gp for each additional Hit Die, and increased by an additional 50,000 gp if the golem’s size increases. The XP cost for creating an advanced golem is equal to 1/25 the advanced golem’s market price minus the cost of the special materials required. Also, wouldn't colossi be treated as epic magic items for purposes of price?
Bernat 06-22-07, 10:58 PM	It does help a bit because I didn't recall that the indicated cost to create included spell components. I think too that colossus would use epic pricing, and this is probably something already included in the price (an iron golem costs 80.000 to create, an adamantine golem costs 500.000 to create). What I find funny is that the body cost for the iron golem is the same than the mithral golem :). I haven't been able to find out how the calculate the market price yet. I will continue trying tomorrow, since here it's a bit late already.
bluemage55 06-22-07, 11:16 PM	The big thing that you are overlooking, Bernat, is that there are sometimes additional raw material costs that are added to the price of an item, that are not considered as part of the "raw materials = 1/2 of total price" For example, a +1 dagger is 2,302 gp. If you were given the cost to create, you would get 1,302 gp and 80 xp. However, it would be erroneous to assume that the final price is 2,302 gp. Rather, the way the price is calculated is the total cost for materials + the XP cost * 12.5, which is 1,302 + 8012.5 = 2,302 gp. This formula is the only one that holds true regardless of extra costs. The appropriate way to calculate the price is to take the total materials cost + 12.5 XP cost, which for the iron collossus yields 1,625,000 gp.
Bernat 06-23-07, 03:59 AM	But why do magic items in the SRD and MIC follow my pricing method? I know there are raw materials added to some magic item's cost, but in the case of the Ring of Three Wishes there was only raw XP costs. Do you see that all the magic items I've posted follow my pricing method? Please tell me your example has a mistake and 1.302 + 80*25 = 3.302 or I find I may have some kind of color blindness applied to maths...
bluemage55 06-23-07, 04:55 AM	My example has been fixed.
Bernat 06-24-07, 04:37 PM	Back home again... Ok, let's look at an example ("http://www.roles.es/sovelior_sage_srd/magicItemsAW.html#plate-armor-of-the-deep): Plate Armor of the Deep: This +1 full plate is decorated with a wave and fish motif. The wearer of plate armor of the deep is treated as unarmored for purposes of Swim checks. The wearer can breathe underwater and can converse with any creature with a language that breathes water. Moderate abjuration; CL 11th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, freedom of movement, water breathing, tongues; Price 24,650 gp; Cost 17,150 gp + 600 XP. Rhino Hide: This +2 hide armor is made from rhinoceros hide. In addition to granting a +2 enhancement bonus to AC, it has a –1 armor check penalty and deals an additional 2d6 points of damage on any successful charge attack made by the wearer, including a mounted charge. Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, bull’s strength; Price 5,165 gp; Cost 2,665 gp + 200 XP. What would be the price for this item? 2.665 + 200 * 25 = 7.665 gp? You haven't still answered my questions, so I'm starting to think that you have been joking all these posts (or you have no idea what you're talking about). To the OP: I've been trying to price golems under standard magic item pricing with no success, so I recommend you use the formula I provided above to price colossus (it works when determining market price of most of the golems). Price for Iron Colossus would be 1.799.000 gp.
goro 06-24-07, 07:39 PM	An iron colossus’s body is sculpted from 150,000 pounds of pure iron. The colossus costs 1,000,000 gp to create, which includes 100,500 gp for the body. Fairly obvious, +1,000,000 gp to total market price. Assembling the body requires a successful Craft (armorsmithing) or Craft (weaponsmithing) check (DC 42). Is there a price for craft checks? The creator must be 35th level and able to cast epic spells. Completing the ritual drains 50,000 XP from the creator and requires cloudkill, geas/quest, limited wish, and polymorph any object. Spell levelCaster level (Minimum caster level 35th, for Iron Colossus)250 gp each spell. Completing the ritual drains 50,000 XP from the creator Does the 50,000 exp drained through the ritual include the exp cost from making the magic item, casting the listed spells, and casting the epic spells to give it life? Or a combination of any of those? I can't think at the moment to complete my thought.
bluemage55 06-25-07, 02:31 AM	You haven't still answered my questions, so I'm starting to think that you have been joking all these posts (or you have no idea what you're talking about). I've been screwing up the whole time. :embarrass I got misled by the OP's post, and I've been saying and using 25, when it's actually 12.5. The correct price for any item is: Market Price = raw materials + 12.5 gp * XP cost So by that calculation, the price for an iron colossus is 1,625,000 gp.
Bernat 06-25-07, 06:00 AM	Glad we finally price items in the same way. I was going a bit crazy because noone confirmed my or your pricing method. So it was me saying green and you saying blue. As for colossus pricing, that system isn't perfect either, but the difference between real price and price calculated using that formula is around 5%. That's enough for me, seeing as I haven't found a perfect method yet. Goro, on regular magic items, XP required by spells is added to the XP cost to create. However, you need to separate both when calculating market price because the former is worth 5 gp per point and the later 12'5 gp per point. This can be easily seen in the example for the Ring of Three Wishes I posted a bit above. However, I've been trying to apply this to pricing golems to no success.
rob_douglas 06-25-07, 11:21 AM	The problem with the Iron Colossus is that it does not follow normal magic item pricing/cost to create. Look at the costs - 1Million, but 100,500 for raw materials. That would mean that cost to create without the materials (from which normal XP costs are figured) is 899,500. Double that and divide by 25 - that is the normal XP cost of creating a magic item with a base price of 1,799,000. You get 71,960. But the Colossus only costs 50,000XP. So it is cheaper to create than a similar priced magic item. Normal magic items have base price = material cost + (cost to create)2 = material cost + (XP cost)25 but neither of those work for the Colossus, because of the discrepency in XP to creation costs above. The cost that you need to use, that uses both, is base price = material cost + cost to create + (XP Cost *12.5) which comes out to 1,625,000 as you all finally discovered, so you are only including the two factors once each. Interestingly, if the XP cost had been above 71,960, then the additional XP would be added in at a mere 5gp per XP, such as in the ring of wishes, where you pay 25,000gp for each 5,000XP spent. Which I think is where we all are now, and we are on the same page - sorry if I had to reiterate it all, but I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. :) ROB
bluemage55 06-25-07, 02:54 PM	Interestingly, if the XP cost had been above 71,960, then the additional XP would be added in at a mere 5gp per XP, such as in the ring of wishes, where you pay 25,000gp for each 5,000XP spent. The 5 gp per 1 XP applies only when an item duplicates a spell that consumes XP, and only for the amount that comes from that spell.