CR, especially Epic with Classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

CR, especially Epic with Classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rob_douglas
07-30-07, 01:59 PM CRs definitely get weird at Epic, as we have all seen. But the idea that you add non-associated class levels at +1/2 until you reach the HD of the existing creature, then +1/level clearly seems wrong:

Take the LeShay. I know it says advancement none, but let's just add class levels like we always do...

CR28 with 50HD. Technically, if you add 50 wizard levels, it will be CR 28+25 = 43. Really? An elf wizard with 50 levels is CR 50, 47 if you use the optional rules on reducing NPC by 1/10 levels to account for the fact that wealth really creates a barrier. Is an elf wiz50 really more of a threat than a LeShay Wiz50? Clearly not.

I was never a fan of the "non-associated" class CR issue. I thought, you don't reduce an NPCs CR if he is a human fighter/rogue to only take into account 1/2 of the lower classes levels. Presumably the class features are worth something. At the same time, adding Sorcerer levels to a Rakshasa seems more dangerous than adding Wizard levels - but isn't that a standard DMs issue when multiclassing?

I really think 3.5 messed this up with the CR thing. Even if you support 1/2 non-associated, it should at least change over when you have more class levels than the initial CR. In the above, my LeShay Wiz50 would be 28+14 (for 28 wiz levels) + 22 (for the other 22 wiz levels) = 64 (maybe 59-60 based on the optional rule I mentioned).

I don't know, but as everyone knows, CR estimation at epic is "hard work." I just want to be fair to the PCs....

ROB
BillTheManiac
07-30-07, 02:05 PM Actually, 53, but still broken. It's even crazier if you have a monster with HD>2*CR. A celestial legendary animal does the trick.

I think the CR thing is the good way to express it. Alternatively, "halve either the 'old' part (monster CR and associated levels), or the 'new' part, whichever gives you the lowest CR (which will be whatever is lower)".
Tequila_Sunrise
07-30-07, 05:42 PM I ignore the 1/2 non-associated class levels thing. If I add class levels to an NPC or monster that don't add much effectiveness, it's because I'm purposely softening it for my players. Honestly, even a seemingly stupid addition of non-associated class levels provides benefits to the NPC/monster. Aside from hp, saves and so forth there are always class abilities that have some use for everyone. If I really want to accurately represent the CR of say, a rakshasa that has wizard levels for story reasons, I'll just eyeball it.

TS
fnord
07-30-07, 10:30 PM The quick and dirty fix is to base the "non-associated class level" thing on CR rather than hit dice.
runestar
07-30-07, 10:56 PM CR28 with 50HD. Technically, if you add 50 wizard levels, it will be CR 28+25 = 43.

Really? The last time I learnt math, 28+25 = 53...;)

To be fair, a lv50 wizard is not a true cr50 challenge anyways. I think Witch or someone one pegged it at around cr35-40 at most.
rob_douglas
07-31-07, 12:04 AM Yeah, thanks guys - always good to know someone will let you know when you mess your math up. ;)

I do agree that part of the problem might be the CR of post-epic classes. Could it be that class levels after 20 should really be +1/2 CR? A 50th level wizard would be (if my math skills are nor Confunded again) - 20+15 = 35. Fits Witch's view. It then maps in many ways to Outsider or Dragon HD.

Hmmm.... Something to think about. I think that might be closer to right. A party can take on higher level NPCs than they are pretty easily at epic.

Thanks,
ROB
runestar
07-31-07, 12:22 AM I do agree that part of the problem might be the CR of post-epic classes. Could it be that class levels after 20 should really be +1/2 CR? A 50th level wizard would be (if my math skills are nor Confunded again) - 20+15 = 35. Fits Witch's view. It then maps in many ways to Outsider or Dragon HD.

Seems plausible. I mean - look at the Elder Titan. 70 outsider HD + wiz29 spellcasting, and you are telling me it is supposed to be as tough as a wiz30?:P

As for melee classes, I don't quite believe that a fighter20 is a cr20 fight either, so maybe the point at which you start using the non-associated rule may have to come earlier (maybe starting from lv10 or 12?).

Or perhaps the problem is simply the 1-size-fits-all approach of the cr guidelines.

Definitely needs some playtesting, but looks like a step in the right direction.:)
bluemage55
07-31-07, 07:03 AM Seems plausible. I mean - look at the Elder Titan. 70 outsider HD + wiz29 spellcasting, and you are telling me it is supposed to be as tough as a wiz30?:P

Thankfully I fixed that one in my revisions.

As for melee classes, I don't quite believe that a fighter20 is a cr20 fight either, so maybe the point at which you start using the non-associated rule may have to come earlier (maybe starting from lv10 or 12?).

The problem there is that the fighter class needs to be improved, not have its CR lowered.

Or perhaps the problem is simply the 1-size-fits-all approach of the cr guidelines.

This is part of the problem, but it's inevitable. As long as I can put together an optimal build for a monster, and a crappy, poorly optimized one, two monsters with identical CR are going to be different challenges.
Draegun Fury
08-02-07, 09:07 AM Could it be that class levels after 20 should really be +1/2 CR?

Thanks,
ROB

I thought that was official :P
Kain Darkwind
08-04-07, 03:04 PM Frankly, I don't think any standard NPC with NPC wealth is really a CR=Character level once you get past 10th level. I usually start knocking off -1 at that point, and increasing it by -1 every 5 levels. 20th level NPC = CR 18. 30th level NPC = CR 26. Works out alright as far as I can see.
runestar
08-04-07, 10:57 PM I dunno - spellcasters seem to be more worth their cr at higher lvs, since their spells can be used to replicate magic gear.

If anything, I would say that they are too weak for their cr early on. What is human wiz1 (cr1) supposed to do? Cast sleep and hope that you fail your will saves?

Besides, the designers have themselves admitted that cr for classed npcs is generally accurate only over a very narrow range of lvs.:(
bluemage55
08-05-07, 02:02 AM If anything, I would say that they are too weak for their cr early on. What is human wiz1 (cr1) supposed to do? Cast sleep and hope that you fail your will saves?

More or less.

It's an area save-or-die that they can use from the get-go that is especially useful against the brute-type enemies that would give the party fighter trouble.

Besides, the designers have themselves admitted that cr for classed npcs is generally accurate only over a very narrow range of lvs.:(

That's mainly due to the equipment shortage. Unfortunately, there's no real way to give them appropriate equipment without handing PCs massive amounts of treasure each NPC encounter.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rob_douglas 07-30-07, 01:59 PM	CRs definitely get weird at Epic, as we have all seen. But the idea that you add non-associated class levels at +1/2 until you reach the HD of the existing creature, then +1/level clearly seems wrong: Take the LeShay. I know it says advancement none, but let's just add class levels like we always do... CR28 with 50HD. Technically, if you add 50 wizard levels, it will be CR 28+25 = 43. Really? An elf wizard with 50 levels is CR 50, 47 if you use the optional rules on reducing NPC by 1/10 levels to account for the fact that wealth really creates a barrier. Is an elf wiz50 really more of a threat than a LeShay Wiz50? Clearly not. I was never a fan of the "non-associated" class CR issue. I thought, you don't reduce an NPCs CR if he is a human fighter/rogue to only take into account 1/2 of the lower classes levels. Presumably the class features are worth something. At the same time, adding Sorcerer levels to a Rakshasa seems more dangerous than adding Wizard levels - but isn't that a standard DMs issue when multiclassing? I really think 3.5 messed this up with the CR thing. Even if you support 1/2 non-associated, it should at least change over when you have more class levels than the initial CR. In the above, my LeShay Wiz50 would be 28+14 (for 28 wiz levels) + 22 (for the other 22 wiz levels) = 64 (maybe 59-60 based on the optional rule I mentioned). I don't know, but as everyone knows, CR estimation at epic is "hard work." I just want to be fair to the PCs.... ROB
BillTheManiac 07-30-07, 02:05 PM	Actually, 53, but still broken. It's even crazier if you have a monster with HD>2*CR. A celestial legendary animal does the trick. I think the CR thing is the good way to express it. Alternatively, "halve either the 'old' part (monster CR and associated levels), or the 'new' part, whichever gives you the lowest CR (which will be whatever is lower)".
Tequila_Sunrise 07-30-07, 05:42 PM	I ignore the 1/2 non-associated class levels thing. If I add class levels to an NPC or monster that don't add much effectiveness, it's because I'm purposely softening it for my players. Honestly, even a seemingly stupid addition of non-associated class levels provides benefits to the NPC/monster. Aside from hp, saves and so forth there are always class abilities that have some use for everyone. If I really want to accurately represent the CR of say, a rakshasa that has wizard levels for story reasons, I'll just eyeball it. TS
fnord 07-30-07, 10:30 PM	The quick and dirty fix is to base the "non-associated class level" thing on CR rather than hit dice.
runestar 07-30-07, 10:56 PM	CR28 with 50HD. Technically, if you add 50 wizard levels, it will be CR 28+25 = 43. Really? The last time I learnt math, 28+25 = 53...;) To be fair, a lv50 wizard is not a true cr50 challenge anyways. I think Witch or someone one pegged it at around cr35-40 at most.
rob_douglas 07-31-07, 12:04 AM	Yeah, thanks guys - always good to know someone will let you know when you mess your math up. ;) I do agree that part of the problem might be the CR of post-epic classes. Could it be that class levels after 20 should really be +1/2 CR? A 50th level wizard would be (if my math skills are nor Confunded again) - 20+15 = 35. Fits Witch's view. It then maps in many ways to Outsider or Dragon HD. Hmmm.... Something to think about. I think that might be closer to right. A party can take on higher level NPCs than they are pretty easily at epic. Thanks, ROB
runestar 07-31-07, 12:22 AM	I do agree that part of the problem might be the CR of post-epic classes. Could it be that class levels after 20 should really be +1/2 CR? A 50th level wizard would be (if my math skills are nor Confunded again) - 20+15 = 35. Fits Witch's view. It then maps in many ways to Outsider or Dragon HD. Seems plausible. I mean - look at the Elder Titan. 70 outsider HD + wiz29 spellcasting, and you are telling me it is supposed to be as tough as a wiz30?:P As for melee classes, I don't quite believe that a fighter20 is a cr20 fight either, so maybe the point at which you start using the non-associated rule may have to come earlier (maybe starting from lv10 or 12?). Or perhaps the problem is simply the 1-size-fits-all approach of the cr guidelines. Definitely needs some playtesting, but looks like a step in the right direction.:)
bluemage55 07-31-07, 07:03 AM	Seems plausible. I mean - look at the Elder Titan. 70 outsider HD + wiz29 spellcasting, and you are telling me it is supposed to be as tough as a wiz30?:P Thankfully I fixed that one in my revisions. As for melee classes, I don't quite believe that a fighter20 is a cr20 fight either, so maybe the point at which you start using the non-associated rule may have to come earlier (maybe starting from lv10 or 12?). The problem there is that the fighter class needs to be improved, not have its CR lowered. Or perhaps the problem is simply the 1-size-fits-all approach of the cr guidelines. This is part of the problem, but it's inevitable. As long as I can put together an optimal build for a monster, and a crappy, poorly optimized one, two monsters with identical CR are going to be different challenges.
Draegun Fury 08-02-07, 09:07 AM	Could it be that class levels after 20 should really be +1/2 CR? Thanks, ROB I thought that was official :P
Kain Darkwind 08-04-07, 03:04 PM	Frankly, I don't think any standard NPC with NPC wealth is really a CR=Character level once you get past 10th level. I usually start knocking off -1 at that point, and increasing it by -1 every 5 levels. 20th level NPC = CR 18. 30th level NPC = CR 26. Works out alright as far as I can see.
runestar 08-04-07, 10:57 PM	I dunno - spellcasters seem to be more worth their cr at higher lvs, since their spells can be used to replicate magic gear. If anything, I would say that they are too weak for their cr early on. What is human wiz1 (cr1) supposed to do? Cast sleep and hope that you fail your will saves? Besides, the designers have themselves admitted that cr for classed npcs is generally accurate only over a very narrow range of lvs.:(
bluemage55 08-05-07, 02:02 AM	If anything, I would say that they are too weak for their cr early on. What is human wiz1 (cr1) supposed to do? Cast sleep and hope that you fail your will saves? More or less. It's an area save-or-die that they can use from the get-go that is especially useful against the brute-type enemies that would give the party fighter trouble. Besides, the designers have themselves admitted that cr for classed npcs is generally accurate only over a very narrow range of lvs.:( That's mainly due to the equipment shortage. Unfortunately, there's no real way to give them appropriate equipment without handing PCs massive amounts of treasure each NPC encounter.