Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thejibboo 12-21-07, 12:55 AM	This is coming from a first-time DM, so i apologize if it's a stupid question, but would a multiclass Bard/20 Rogue/20 really be CR 40? A 20th level Bard and a 20th level Rogue working together is only CR 22, and they would get to attack twice as often with the same attacks that the level 40 Bard/Rogue had at his disposal. I know the level 40 character would also have certain advantages over 2 level 20 characters (such as saves) but it just seems hard to believe that such a character would be twice as difficult to take down as some of the toughest dragons.
runestar 12-21-07, 01:11 AM	Cr is more art than science. I honestly doubt that a rogue20 or a bard20 is cr20 to start with. Likewise, there really isn't much synergy with their abilities, so one class should be considered non-associated. So my solution would be to have either side add only ~+10cr, and revise the cr of the other side downwards appropriately. For example, if say, a rogue20 is cr15? at best, then a rogue20/bard20 would be cr25 at most. Still seems a tad too high though, but I admit to having little experience with epic class crs.:(
thejibboo 12-21-07, 01:45 AM	that sounds very close to my thinking, i just wanted to hear someone else say it. I was thinking just calculating it like two level 20 characters and adding 2 to the CR, give or take a little. Thanks for the reply
BigGus 12-21-07, 07:46 AM	Well, there would be a few things they'd be good at other than saves. BAB would be +25, they'd have 7 epic feats, and could have 43 ranks in combat-useful skills such as hide, move silently, and use magic device. So I'd say their CR would be a bit more than 22, although I think you're right that it wouldn't be as high as 40. I'd say 25-30 is probably nearer to it.
LordBOB777 12-21-07, 12:20 PM	***disclaimer...... I might be wrong *** It seems as though i remember reading that in Epic, PC's only gain 1/2 CR for a class level, so a Bard or Rogue 40 is not a CR 40, it is instead a CR 30. 20 +20/2 = 30 That being said, templates add the full CR. As does being a monster
thejibboo 12-21-07, 12:38 PM	thanks for all the tips everyone. sounds like maybe the only way to really figure it out is to throw one at my players when i think they're ready and have some sort of contingency escape hatch planned in case things go badly
runestar 12-21-07, 09:15 PM	You may also need to pit it against other epic foes and see how they stack up. Cr30 implies they will pose as great a threat as say, an appropriately advanced red dragon or an elder titan...:eek: Even with epic spellcasting, I don't quite see that happening...:embarrass
rob_douglas 12-25-07, 12:44 PM	There are a lot of factors that go into determining the CR of such an NPC. Let's be sure you are talking about an NPC, because PCs have no CR per se. If you do end up fighting a PC, their CR is actually higher than an equivalent NPC usually, because they are better optimized and have more resources. That said, yes, CR is more art than science, but has some basic tenets. First off, a 40th level character is ostensibly CR40. However, given the gap in resources for NPCs, there is an optional rule in the ELH I recommend that suggests dropping 1 CR per 10 levels in epic, so it would make him closer to CR37 at 40th level. However, this presumes at least a minimal effort at optimization, and 20/20 split class is so totally not optimized. There is no real synergy here, and the epic feats that he gains from epic levels won't give him the greatest bang for the buck. He should be going into some sort of PrC at some point before that. Agent Retriever would work well and could be gained at Bard 20/Rog5, giving 15 levels of AR, spellcasting as a Bard 35, and access to Epic Spellcasting and a bunch of extra feats. Other PrCs would do as well. This lack of optimization would be worth following the non-associated class levels rule, and making this character CR 20+1/2*20 = 30, maybe -1 or -2 more for the resource issue, so CR28 as a minimum. So now we have a range from 28-37. Still that should be more than enough to take out the Bard and Rogue individuals that might go against him. Why? Bluff should be more than 20 points higher than the 2 of them's Sense Motive, probably closer to 50 points, giving him a good chance of instilling a suggestion each round, non-magical. Even if he can't he can basically convince them not to fight him. There are other skills as well. The resources available at NPC level 40 are twice that of the 20th level characters, at 1.47 million. So the bard/rogue can afford better stuff, and only has to protect one of them. No flanking either way, so no one gets Sneak Attacks. In all, I don't think the 2 20th level characters could "overcome" the encounter at all, if only because the definition of overcoming an encounter with such a character would be something they could not achieve - probably getting him to give them something, or tell them some secrets only he could know. A bard20/rogue20 is not a combat encounter. Treated as such, I would go with the CR28. He will have saves way better than they can get through, and an AC that will be hard to touch, plus lots of hp. The 2 actions per round could slow things down, but the Bard's Music will give him a Suggestion that they can't overcome (DC based on Perform check - meaning 80ish!) - unless they are Mind Blanked, and then he will have to dispel that first (scroll of MDJ and a healthy UMD skill) before suggesting them into submission. That means it could be very tough/untouchable, if played right. Don't forget the NPC's BAB is +25 to those characters +15. That gives a lot of AC to overcome. BTW, be sure to include inherent bonuses in the bard20/rogue20's ability scores as well. Dex/Cha for sure. ROB
BigGus 12-25-07, 07:08 PM	Rob said what I was trying to say, but better.