CR of a human paragon with the paragon template [Archive] - Wizards Community

CR of a human paragon with the paragon template [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
goldomark
08-29-07, 08:49 PM I was thinking of doing a game base around Paragons (the epic template) of different races popping up everywhere. No class on them or just all the levels of the paragon class in UnA.

So what would be the Cr of a 3rd level Human Paragon (the class from Unearthed Arcana) with the Paragon template. His abilities scores are 18 (before any modification). Is Cr is not 21, atleast I don't think so.

In my opinion, the class is a Cr 2 (like a expert or a warrior), but I don't trust the +18 to Cr for creatures with less then 6 HD (like it is written in the template), 3 edition had badly evaluated Cr. But he is powerful. So I was ballparking it around 16. Any ideas?

And I don't what to given him wealth (not yet, maybe later the wealth proper for a NPC of his Cr).

Thanks!
runestar
08-29-07, 10:21 PM Cr of paragon is a flat +15cr as of 3.5.

So a paragon human paragon is cr18. Whether that is fair or not (he will have sick AC, saves but crap hp, and a single enervation or blasphemy does him in) is another question though.

It is really more for creatures with a lot of racial HD for their cr, IMO.:)
goldomark
08-29-07, 10:34 PM Where is that 3.5 conversion?
runestar
08-30-07, 06:08 AM http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm
fnord
09-01-07, 05:16 PM Using the Paragon or ELH Pseudonatural template on low hit-die creatures gives odd results. They are extremely difficult to kill in some ways, absurdly easy in others. Be warned.
Buugipopuu
09-03-07, 07:13 AM With U_K's system, it would be CR 9, which is more appropriate. You halve all CR adjustments once a creature has a CR greater than or equal to double its HD total.
runestar
09-03-07, 07:47 AM With U_K's system, it would be CR 9, which is more appropriate. You halve all CR adjustments once a creature has a CR greater than or equal to double its HD total.

That would be problematic in itself, given the human paragon's AC of around 50. Nothing can hit it at all, nor can you overcome its sr.

Your only hope would be to cast a cloudkill (since it automatically kills anyone of 5HD or less without save/sr). Which is kinda lame (a creature immune to just about everything save for 1 spell which you hope your party is smart enough to use)...:P
Buugipopuu
09-03-07, 08:03 AM Disregard that. I can't add. Its CR should be 12. 3 (Human Paragon levels) + 3 (Unadjusted Paragon CR) + 6 (The remaining 12 of the Paragon CR, halved)
runestar
09-03-07, 10:26 AM Which still doesn't solve the aforementioned problems. That its stats are too lopsided to decide on a common cr, since depending on how you tackle, it may either be too tough or too easy.
goldomark
09-04-07, 02:54 AM Then shoudn't we just make it immuned to spells that kill creature with low HD? On a ordinary monster that would boost it's Cr, but here it would just justify it's abnormal statut.

So it's immuned to could kill; power word kill, what else?
rob_douglas
09-04-07, 11:52 AM blasphemy/word of chaos/holy word/dictum
power word stun (because after a few rounds, he would be dead from coup)

The whole thing is a silly idea. Adding a paragon template to a really low level thing with no special abilities defeats the purpose of the template - which was to make a normal thing dnagerous again at Epic, but to do it very simply.

ROB
goldomark
09-05-07, 01:56 AM Well some of us like fluff, good storylines, background, etc, not just hack and slash (and a storyline is even more important at epic level, unless you just what to kill stuff).

My idea was paragons of differente races popping up around the world. The players have to find out why, while protecting the human paragon from various baddies. They are level 14, so even with a good idea, mechanics comes into play, and I had to find out what was the Cr of my human paragon paragon.

But I guess it's just silly :rolleyes: .
Count Arioch the 28th
09-05-07, 02:24 AM If your story is such that it can be ruined by someone casting a Holy Word spell, then the story is a poor one. (And that's not just the bad guys, if one of the PCs cast Holy Word and the paragon in question isn't good, bye-bye paragon.)

I suggest you not play epic until you know how to make the rules your personal [female dog]. Then, and only then, will you be able to write a good epic storyline. Mechanics and storytelling are not seperate entities, you need to know how to do one before you can do the other.
runestar
09-05-07, 04:38 AM Or just rule that it is also treated as being 15HD greater for purposes of interacting with HD-related effects.
goldomark
09-06-07, 02:42 AM Or just rule that it is also treated as being 15HD greater for purposes of interacting with HD-related effects.

Now that is a great idea. Thank you master Runestar

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
goldomark 08-29-07, 08:49 PM	I was thinking of doing a game base around Paragons (the epic template) of different races popping up everywhere. No class on them or just all the levels of the paragon class in UnA. So what would be the Cr of a 3rd level Human Paragon (the class from Unearthed Arcana) with the Paragon template. His abilities scores are 18 (before any modification). Is Cr is not 21, atleast I don't think so. In my opinion, the class is a Cr 2 (like a expert or a warrior), but I don't trust the +18 to Cr for creatures with less then 6 HD (like it is written in the template), 3 edition had badly evaluated Cr. But he is powerful. So I was ballparking it around 16. Any ideas? And I don't what to given him wealth (not yet, maybe later the wealth proper for a NPC of his Cr). Thanks!
runestar 08-29-07, 10:21 PM	Cr of paragon is a flat +15cr as of 3.5. So a paragon human paragon is cr18. Whether that is fair or not (he will have sick AC, saves but crap hp, and a single enervation or blasphemy does him in) is another question though. It is really more for creatures with a lot of racial HD for their cr, IMO.:)
goldomark 08-29-07, 10:34 PM	Where is that 3.5 conversion?
runestar 08-30-07, 06:08 AM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm
fnord 09-01-07, 05:16 PM	Using the Paragon or ELH Pseudonatural template on low hit-die creatures gives odd results. They are extremely difficult to kill in some ways, absurdly easy in others. Be warned.
Buugipopuu 09-03-07, 07:13 AM	With U_K's system, it would be CR 9, which is more appropriate. You halve all CR adjustments once a creature has a CR greater than or equal to double its HD total.
runestar 09-03-07, 07:47 AM	With U_K's system, it would be CR 9, which is more appropriate. You halve all CR adjustments once a creature has a CR greater than or equal to double its HD total. That would be problematic in itself, given the human paragon's AC of around 50. Nothing can hit it at all, nor can you overcome its sr. Your only hope would be to cast a cloudkill (since it automatically kills anyone of 5HD or less without save/sr). Which is kinda lame (a creature immune to just about everything save for 1 spell which you hope your party is smart enough to use)...:P
Buugipopuu 09-03-07, 08:03 AM	Disregard that. I can't add. Its CR should be 12. 3 (Human Paragon levels) + 3 (Unadjusted Paragon CR) + 6 (The remaining 12 of the Paragon CR, halved)
runestar 09-03-07, 10:26 AM	Which still doesn't solve the aforementioned problems. That its stats are too lopsided to decide on a common cr, since depending on how you tackle, it may either be too tough or too easy.
goldomark 09-04-07, 02:54 AM	Then shoudn't we just make it immuned to spells that kill creature with low HD? On a ordinary monster that would boost it's Cr, but here it would just justify it's abnormal statut. So it's immuned to could kill; power word kill, what else?
rob_douglas 09-04-07, 11:52 AM	blasphemy/word of chaos/holy word/dictum power word stun (because after a few rounds, he would be dead from coup) The whole thing is a silly idea. Adding a paragon template to a really low level thing with no special abilities defeats the purpose of the template - which was to make a normal thing dnagerous again at Epic, but to do it very simply. ROB
goldomark 09-05-07, 01:56 AM	Well some of us like fluff, good storylines, background, etc, not just hack and slash (and a storyline is even more important at epic level, unless you just what to kill stuff). My idea was paragons of differente races popping up around the world. The players have to find out why, while protecting the human paragon from various baddies. They are level 14, so even with a good idea, mechanics comes into play, and I had to find out what was the Cr of my human paragon paragon. But I guess it's just silly :rolleyes: .
Count Arioch the 28th 09-05-07, 02:24 AM	If your story is such that it can be ruined by someone casting a Holy Word spell, then the story is a poor one. (And that's not just the bad guys, if one of the PCs cast Holy Word and the paragon in question isn't good, bye-bye paragon.) I suggest you not play epic until you know how to make the rules your personal [female dog]. Then, and only then, will you be able to write a good epic storyline. Mechanics and storytelling are not seperate entities, you need to know how to do one before you can do the other.
runestar 09-05-07, 04:38 AM	Or just rule that it is also treated as being 15HD greater for purposes of interacting with HD-related effects.
goldomark 09-06-07, 02:42 AM	Or just rule that it is also treated as being 15HD greater for purposes of interacting with HD-related effects. Now that is a great idea. Thank you master Runestar