Crown of Vermin -- Useles??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Crown of Vermin -- Useles??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
HairyApe
04-20-07, 11:13 AM Crown of Vermin, as per the SRD, has 1000 tiny little creatures that overcome epic damage reduction that deal (minus a relfex save) one point of damage a piece, in an amount large enough to kill you, maximum of 1000 points.

With 3.5 Damage Reduction rules as the are...magic not overcoming materials -- would an 7th level barbarian (DR 1/-) or any warlock capable of seeing this threat (near 20th level with fiendish resilience(?)) be completely immune to this EPIC spell through their damage reduction?

This came up in a game last night, the capstone battle. We were 21st level and this guy was who knows what level. But due to my 55HD Iron golem, some good Greater Dispel Magics, and the inability for him to affect us with this spell, we won without losing anyone. Everyone had some piddly DR of some sort. The FB had DR1/-, we had a vampire, I was a 20 Dread Necro/1Dragon Disciple(red), warlock...every one was (ruled) immune.

Anyway, after the tangent...thanks for any input you give!!
spike81101
04-20-07, 01:40 PM In short, yes it is nearly useless. I used it against my PC's and was able to use it on one of them after his DR was dispelled.

My suggestion for DM's who use this spell, give it a few more DR's to penetrate, either adamantite, cold iron of silver. Probably give them either a good or evil alignment as well. Those with dr/- will obviously be immune, but others will not.
Aracor
04-20-07, 02:05 PM The problem is that the spell was written in 3.0; when damage reduction had nothing to do with special materials. So if something had damage reduction, it was generally easy to overcome with enough enhancement bonuses on the weapon.

I'd agree that the fix is to give it ad-hoc more ability to penetrate damage reduction; such as silver, adamantine, cold iron, etc. Probably increase the spellcraft DC by a little bit; but not an unmanageable number.
rob_douglas
04-20-07, 11:46 PM I think that it would not be unreasonable to treat the Crown of Vermin as a swarm, thereby only having a single "attack" that will definitely overcome DR. It does whatever it needs to to kill someone entering, so if they have DR 15/Adamantine, it would do HP+15 damage to them and bypass the DR. It would retain DR 1/Epic and bypass Epic and Magic DR as a result as well.

I think that is the intention, and follows the 3.5 Swarm rules more closely (though still not completely, as those rules imply only a 10' space, etc. but you can surmise the rest).

ROB
Grandmaster_Kane
04-22-07, 01:49 PM or do what i did and alter the spell ever so slightly and give it full ability to ignore damage reduction
bluemage55
04-22-07, 04:42 PM Or do what I did and update it to 3.5.

Creeping doom, the basis for crown of vermin, was updated to no longer use the 1 dmg bite mechanics, and instead now summons a mob of swarms. I have updated crown of vermin to instead summon a ruin swarm. In order to reduce the spell back to its original DC, I weakened the ruin swarm. Now the spell does 5d6 points of damage per round to everything in it, in addition to causing blinding and nausea unless enemies within it make Fort saves:

Crown of Vermin
Conjuration (Summoning)
Spellcraft DC: 56
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Personal
Effect: Ruin swarm that surrounds you in a 10-ft.-radius spread
Duration: 20 rounds (D)
Saving Throw: None (see text)
Spell Resistance: No
To Develop: 630,000 gp; 11 days; 25,200 XP. Seeds: summon (DC 14). Factors: summon creature other than outsider (+10 DC), summon CR 16 creature (+28 DC), allow mass to move at your speed (ad hoc +2 DC), perfect control of vermin (ad hoc +2 DC). Mitigating factor: change range to personal (–2 DC).
After casting crown of vermin, a ruin swarm erupts from the very air around the character. This swarm forms a living aura around the character to a radius of 10 feet. The character is immune to his or her own crown of vermin. The swarm goes where the character goes at his or her speed, even if the character takes to the air or water (though water drowns the vermin after 1 full round of immersion, unless the spell is cast underwater, in which case aquatic or marine vermin answer the call and cannot leave the water). Each creature that enters the area occupied by the effect (or an area that the character forces the effect into) takes swarm damage and suffers from the blinding and distraction abilities of the swarm, and is subject to these every round they spend within the area.
The character has utter control over the vermin in his or her aura, and can force them into areas that would normally deter common vermin. The character can completely suppress his or her vermin aura as a free action so that no vermin are visible at all. The time that vermin are suppressed does not count toward the spell’s duration. Alternatively, the character can roughly shape and move the vermin in any fashion he or she desires within the limits of the 10-foot-radius spread as a move-equivalent action. The vermin cannot be wrested from the character’s control through any means. The vermin make all saving throws to avoid damaging effects using the character’s base saving throw bonuses. They gain the character’s spell resistance, if any, and they get saving throws against spells that would otherwise automatically slay vermin. A character can see through his or her crown of vermin without difficulty, but gains one-half concealment against enemy attacks launched both outside and within the character’s crown of vermin.

RUIN SWARM
Tiny Vermin (Swarm)
Hit Dice: 22d8+220 (319 hp)
Initiative: +14
Speed: 20 ft., climb 20 ft., fly 90 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 26 (+2 size, +12 Dex, +2 natural), touch 24, flatfooted 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +16/—
Attack: Swarm (5d6)
Full Attack: Swarm (5d6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Blinding, distraction (DC 31)
Special Qualities: Blindsense, fast healing 15, swarm traits, vermin traits
Saves: Fort +23, Ref +19, Will +13
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 35, Con 30, Int—, Wis 23, Cha 32
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, cloud (2–4 swarms), or plague (5–8 swarms)
Challenge Rating: 16
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: None
Combat
Blinding (Ex): Any living creature that begins its turn with a ruin swarm in its space must make a Fortitude save (DC 33) or be blinded for one round. The save DC is Dexterity-based.
Blindsense (Ex): The ruin swarm notices and locates creatures within 200 ft. Opponents still have 100% concealment against the swarm (but swarm attacks ignore concealment).
Distraction (Ex): Any living creature vulnerable to the swarm’s damage that begins its turn with a swarm in its square is nauseated for 1 round; a DC 31 Fortitude save negates the effect. Even with a successful save, spellcasting or concentrating on spells within the area of a swarm requires a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level). Using skills requiring patience and concentration requires a Concentration check (DC 20). The save DC is Constitution-based.
Swarm Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons.
Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or fewer causes the swarm to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple another.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects if the swarm has an intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes a –10 penalty on saving throws against spells or effects that affect an area, such as many evocation spells or grenadelike weapons. If the area effect attack does not allow a saving throw, the swarm takes double damage instead.
A swarm rendered unconscious by means of subdual damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not re-form until its hit points exceed its subdual damage.
Vermin Traits: A ruin swarm is immune to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). It also has darkvision (60-foot range).
HairyApe
04-23-07, 02:10 PM Thanks for the input everyone! I'll take that into consideration. Maybe require a focus of the type of DR you want to penetrate and add 5 or 10 to the spellcraft check for each additional type. (I.E. epic/silver is normal, but epic/silver/cold iron is +5 or + 10 to the DC) Thanks again!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HairyApe 04-20-07, 11:13 AM	Crown of Vermin, as per the SRD, has 1000 tiny little creatures that overcome epic damage reduction that deal (minus a relfex save) one point of damage a piece, in an amount large enough to kill you, maximum of 1000 points. With 3.5 Damage Reduction rules as the are...magic not overcoming materials -- would an 7th level barbarian (DR 1/-) or any warlock capable of seeing this threat (near 20th level with fiendish resilience(?)) be completely immune to this EPIC spell through their damage reduction? This came up in a game last night, the capstone battle. We were 21st level and this guy was who knows what level. But due to my 55HD Iron golem, some good Greater Dispel Magics, and the inability for him to affect us with this spell, we won without losing anyone. Everyone had some piddly DR of some sort. The FB had DR1/-, we had a vampire, I was a 20 Dread Necro/1Dragon Disciple(red), warlock...every one was (ruled) immune. Anyway, after the tangent...thanks for any input you give!!
spike81101 04-20-07, 01:40 PM	In short, yes it is nearly useless. I used it against my PC's and was able to use it on one of them after his DR was dispelled. My suggestion for DM's who use this spell, give it a few more DR's to penetrate, either adamantite, cold iron of silver. Probably give them either a good or evil alignment as well. Those with dr/- will obviously be immune, but others will not.
Aracor 04-20-07, 02:05 PM	The problem is that the spell was written in 3.0; when damage reduction had nothing to do with special materials. So if something had damage reduction, it was generally easy to overcome with enough enhancement bonuses on the weapon. I'd agree that the fix is to give it ad-hoc more ability to penetrate damage reduction; such as silver, adamantine, cold iron, etc. Probably increase the spellcraft DC by a little bit; but not an unmanageable number.
rob_douglas 04-20-07, 11:46 PM	I think that it would not be unreasonable to treat the Crown of Vermin as a swarm, thereby only having a single "attack" that will definitely overcome DR. It does whatever it needs to to kill someone entering, so if they have DR 15/Adamantine, it would do HP+15 damage to them and bypass the DR. It would retain DR 1/Epic and bypass Epic and Magic DR as a result as well. I think that is the intention, and follows the 3.5 Swarm rules more closely (though still not completely, as those rules imply only a 10' space, etc. but you can surmise the rest). ROB
Grandmaster_Kane 04-22-07, 01:49 PM	or do what i did and alter the spell ever so slightly and give it full ability to ignore damage reduction
bluemage55 04-22-07, 04:42 PM	Or do what I did and update it to 3.5. Creeping doom, the basis for crown of vermin, was updated to no longer use the 1 dmg bite mechanics, and instead now summons a mob of swarms. I have updated crown of vermin to instead summon a ruin swarm. In order to reduce the spell back to its original DC, I weakened the ruin swarm. Now the spell does 5d6 points of damage per round to everything in it, in addition to causing blinding and nausea unless enemies within it make Fort saves: Crown of Vermin Conjuration (Summoning) Spellcraft DC: 56 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Personal Effect: Ruin swarm that surrounds you in a 10-ft.-radius spread Duration: 20 rounds (D) Saving Throw: None (see text) Spell Resistance: No To Develop: 630,000 gp; 11 days; 25,200 XP. Seeds: summon (DC 14). Factors: summon creature other than outsider (+10 DC), summon CR 16 creature (+28 DC), allow mass to move at your speed (ad hoc +2 DC), perfect control of vermin (ad hoc +2 DC). Mitigating factor: change range to personal (–2 DC). After casting crown of vermin, a ruin swarm erupts from the very air around the character. This swarm forms a living aura around the character to a radius of 10 feet. The character is immune to his or her own crown of vermin. The swarm goes where the character goes at his or her speed, even if the character takes to the air or water (though water drowns the vermin after 1 full round of immersion, unless the spell is cast underwater, in which case aquatic or marine vermin answer the call and cannot leave the water). Each creature that enters the area occupied by the effect (or an area that the character forces the effect into) takes swarm damage and suffers from the blinding and distraction abilities of the swarm, and is subject to these every round they spend within the area. The character has utter control over the vermin in his or her aura, and can force them into areas that would normally deter common vermin. The character can completely suppress his or her vermin aura as a free action so that no vermin are visible at all. The time that vermin are suppressed does not count toward the spell’s duration. Alternatively, the character can roughly shape and move the vermin in any fashion he or she desires within the limits of the 10-foot-radius spread as a move-equivalent action. The vermin cannot be wrested from the character’s control through any means. The vermin make all saving throws to avoid damaging effects using the character’s base saving throw bonuses. They gain the character’s spell resistance, if any, and they get saving throws against spells that would otherwise automatically slay vermin. A character can see through his or her crown of vermin without difficulty, but gains one-half concealment against enemy attacks launched both outside and within the character’s crown of vermin. RUIN SWARM Tiny Vermin (Swarm) Hit Dice: 22d8+220 (319 hp) Initiative: +14 Speed: 20 ft., climb 20 ft., fly 90 ft. (perfect) Armor Class: 26 (+2 size, +12 Dex, +2 natural), touch 24, flatfooted 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +16/— Attack: Swarm (5d6) Full Attack: Swarm (5d6) Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft. Special Attacks: Blinding, distraction (DC 31) Special Qualities: Blindsense, fast healing 15, swarm traits, vermin traits Saves: Fort +23, Ref +19, Will +13 Abilities: Str 3, Dex 35, Con 30, Int—, Wis 23, Cha 32 Skills: — Feats: — Environment: Any Organization: Solitary, cloud (2–4 swarms), or plague (5–8 swarms) Challenge Rating: 16 Treasure: None Alignment: Always neutral Advancement: None Combat Blinding (Ex): Any living creature that begins its turn with a ruin swarm in its space must make a Fortitude save (DC 33) or be blinded for one round. The save DC is Dexterity-based. Blindsense (Ex): The ruin swarm notices and locates creatures within 200 ft. Opponents still have 100% concealment against the swarm (but swarm attacks ignore concealment). Distraction (Ex): Any living creature vulnerable to the swarm’s damage that begins its turn with a swarm in its square is nauseated for 1 round; a DC 31 Fortitude save negates the effect. Even with a successful save, spellcasting or concentrating on spells within the area of a swarm requires a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level). Using skills requiring patience and concentration requires a Concentration check (DC 20). The save DC is Constitution-based. Swarm Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or fewer causes the swarm to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple another. A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects if the swarm has an intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes a –10 penalty on saving throws against spells or effects that affect an area, such as many evocation spells or grenadelike weapons. If the area effect attack does not allow a saving throw, the swarm takes double damage instead. A swarm rendered unconscious by means of subdual damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not re-form until its hit points exceed its subdual damage. Vermin Traits: A ruin swarm is immune to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). It also has darkvision (60-foot range).
HairyApe 04-23-07, 02:10 PM	Thanks for the input everyone! I'll take that into consideration. Maybe require a focus of the type of DR you want to penetrate and add 5 or 10 to the spellcraft check for each additional type. (I.E. epic/silver is normal, but epic/silver/cold iron is +5 or + 10 to the DC) Thanks again!