Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Avatar of Kokusho 12-01-07, 07:48 AM	Considering the fact that the aforementioned book came out before the ELH, quite a few of the SDAs mentioned in the book replicate epic feats, or in the case of some, several epic feats at once. Now, I'm not talking about the obviously inaccessible SDAs, such as Avatar or Divine Blast, but what about some of the lesser abilities? Divine Rogue gives you the benefit of around three epic feats, Divine Monk is also interesting, and Craft Artifact gives you epic item creation. Thoughts on which should or should not be allowed, and why?
BillTheManiac 12-01-07, 08:55 AM	Didn't it come out after? However, they had a policy where each supplement is playable with the core rules alone, and the ELH wasn't core.
Kain_Darkwind 12-01-07, 10:42 AM	Didn't it come out after? However, they had a policy where each supplement is playable with the core rules alone, and the ELH wasn't core. No, it came out before. One or two months if I remember correctly. Which is the second reason (the first you've already mentioned) that it integrated absolutely no epic material and meshes poorly when brought together with those concepts. As for making SDAs epic feats, I'd personally spend more time trying to achieve a better epic system before introducing even more material into it.
Kesuk2k5 12-08-07, 06:21 AM	Well, while any person can include whatever they want in their games, salient divine abilities and epic feats were discussed as being entirely seperate. Let's see if I can find the reference here... Ah, here we are. Deities and Demigods, page 31: "The Epic Level Handbook introduces more than one hundred epic feats that give mortal characters access to some of these abilities (this is referring to things that gods can do easily). Many salient divine abilities are identical with a combination of two or more epic feats. For example, Divine Bard allows a deity to use bardic music as a standard action, to affect creatures that are immune to mind-affecting effects, to double the effects of bardic music, to affect a large number of allies at once, to create lingering inspiration effects, and to use countersong as a reaction. A mortal can learn the epic feats Rapid Inspiration, Music of the Gods, Epic Inspiration, Group Inspiration, Lasting Inspiration, and Reactive Countersong, getting most of the same effects as the Divine Bard ability. However, the range of this mortal's music never extends as far as a deity's does. Some abilities truly are beyond mortal capacity."
rob_douglas 12-13-07, 03:13 PM	Dicefreaks changed their concept of those SDAs that mimicked epic feats by having the SDA grant "bonus" epic feats. So then they used the same rules, so in the case of Divine Bard, it would grant all of those epic feats. Upper_Krust, in his work on Immortality, has proposed that an SDA is the equivalent of 5 epic feats, and even changed the power of some feats and some SDAs to make this relationship more accurate. Check this out for more: Revising SDAs: http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff7.htm Revising Epic Feats: http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff11.htm I do think that some SDAs would be good inspiration for a "feat tree" and others would be excellent inspiration for some kind of Epic Spells. In my view (and I know I am on my own here) Epic Spells can grant divinity, or at least duplicate it very well. All it takes is what the DM says (and not what the player says) it does - including some form of Divine energy: begged, borrowed, or stolen. If you like, we can start a list.... ROB
Starmage21 12-13-07, 04:24 PM	Dicefreaks changed their concept of those SDAs that mimicked epic feats by having the SDA grant "bonus" epic feats. So then they used the same rules, so in the case of Divine Bard, it would grant all of those epic feats. Upper_Krust, in his work on Immortality, has proposed that an SDA is the equivalent of 5 epic feats, and even changed the power of some feats and some SDAs to make this relationship more accurate. Check this out for more: Revising SDAs: http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff7.htm Revising Epic Feats: http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff11.htm I do think that some SDAs would be good inspiration for a "feat tree" and others would be excellent inspiration for some kind of Epic Spells. In my view (and I know I am on my own here) Epic Spells can grant divinity, or at least duplicate it very well. All it takes is what the DM says (and not what the player says) it does - including some form of Divine energy: begged, borrowed, or stolen. If you like, we can start a list.... ROB I dont particularly have a problem with epic spells granting divinity, but it's never going to be above DvR 0 for games I run unless I'm feeling nutty. Velsharoon from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting attained his divinity using some kind of magical ritual provided to him by the greater diety Talos.
Kain_Darkwind 12-13-07, 05:52 PM	Dicefreaks changed their concept of those SDAs that mimicked epic feats by having the SDA grant "bonus" epic feats. So then they used the same rules, so in the case of Divine Bard, it would grant all of those epic feats. This is the first I've heard about that. Care to reference?
BigGus 12-13-07, 06:42 PM	Well, under "Divine Bard" in The Gates of Hell the entry starts "The deity gains Group Inspiration, Lasting Inspiration, Music of the Gods, Rapid Inspiration, and Reactive Countersong as bonus feats". I don't know if I'd call that "changing the concept" though. I thought it was just done that way to make the entries quicker and simpler, since the SDA is just duplicating epic feats.
Kain_Darkwind 12-14-07, 10:58 AM	Hmm. I knew that had been discussed as a concept, but didn't realize it had been incorporated. Thanks.
rob_douglas 12-20-07, 01:18 AM	Yep, that was what I meant. I thought I first saw it on the Deity Conversion Guidelines page, which of course, no longer exists: http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12 OK, not so much a change of concept, but a logical unification and clarification of the link between epic and SDAs. ROB
Kain_Darkwind 12-20-07, 01:49 AM	Yes, well I was against this change when it was first discussed, and I appear to have been sleeping while it was adopted. I hate any ability that tells you to refer to another ability to see what it does. The less long the chain of information one has to follow to understand something, the better.
rob_douglas 12-20-07, 02:08 AM	I like the consistency. Divine Paladin grants Great Smiting. Change Great Smiting, and Divine Paladin gets updated automatically. Either way. ROB
Kain_Darkwind 12-20-07, 02:41 AM	I like the consistency. Divine Paladin grants Great Smiting. Change Great Smiting, and Divine Paladin gets updated automatically. Either way. ROB And to me, consistency is Divine Paladin always doing the same thing. No matter what you do with a feat from a different book. But then again, I think both epic feats and SDAs need a serious overhaul. Neither were paid any attention in the 3.5 upgrade.