Dire Charge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dire Charge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tequila_Sunrise
06-17-07, 10:43 PM Reasonably, if a character is able to make a full attack at the end of a charge, he/she would also be able to do so as a standard action. I can't think of any particular reason as to how this could unbalance anything, but I could be wrong. Ideas?
Archtyrant Terevoth
06-17-07, 11:05 PM Very unbalancing with tumble. You can start in melee, full attack as a standard, then move back with your move action and not draw any AoOs. If the other guy doesn't have pounce, then you're getting like 4-5 attacks to one.
Tequila_Sunrise
06-18-07, 12:12 AM Very true. It would be easy to stipulate that a character cannot modify their movement while moving/full attacking, so keep the criticisms coming!
Lecen_of_Mitran
06-18-07, 09:12 AM Reasonably, if a character is able to make a full attack at the end of a charge, he/she would also be able to do so as a standard action. I can't think of any particular reason as to how this could unbalance anything, but I could be wrong. Ideas?

Fine.

Make it work like Pounce or something similar, where you can use all the time. Believe me, after seeing Barbarians getting this at level first, I won´t say it´s broken. Even so, at lvl 21+, a combatant wouldnt minde having the chance to full attack when he moves, even more when spellcaster are much more stronger.

About tumble: the rogue full attack, and the tumble way out of the Great Wyrm Red Dragon´s area. The dragon moves and full attack him back. Rogue´s dead. Balanced.

Serious! At lvl 21+, a Cleric can true ressurect for free (with the right feat)!
Tequila_Sunrise
06-18-07, 01:35 PM About tumble: the rogue full attack, and the tumble way out of the Great Wyrm Red Dragon´s area. The dragon moves and full attack him back. Rogue´s dead. Balanced.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I don't like balance to be dependant on an enemy having the same feat that you do. Here is the new Dire Charge:

Dire Charge allows two options:
1. The option presented in the ELH.
2. As a full round action, you can make a full attack and move up to your base speed in a straight line. If you use this option, you cannot modify your movement in any way such as by Hiding, Moving Silently or Tumbling.

Neither option is actually a full attack, so you cannot use attacks derived from anything other than your base attack bonus, such as from the haste spell or by wielding a secondary weapon, unless you would normally be able to gain such attacks as part of a charge or standard action.

Rip it apart if you can.
Lecen_of_Mitran
06-18-07, 03:08 PM Dire Charge allows two options:
1. The option presented in the ELH.
2. As a full round action, you can make a full attack and move up to your base speed in a straight line. If you use this option, you cannot modify your movement in any way such as by Hiding, Moving Silently or Tumbling.

I liked number two. And I would add the following: you can´t make a charge with a horse and get the double damage from it (all the attacks getting double damage, I mean). Or one or another.

How about that? What´s your thought?
rob_douglas
06-19-07, 11:39 AM See the SRD revision thread for more on Dire Charge, but basically it should be updated in 3.5 to match the update given to pounce - you can full attack at the end of a charge. Allowing movement after is problematic as noted.

As for how the damage goes when you charge (especially if you are a cavalier), I believe my take on it was that the double and the charging attack bonus (+2) should only apply to the first attack. The AC penalty applies all the time. If you do Ride-by-Attack, you only get 1 attack. Note that if your mount has Dire Charge, and you don't, it can full attack at the end and not you, and vice-versa.

ROB
Tequila_Sunrise
06-19-07, 01:39 PM Thanks for the input; I'm adding a clause about charge bonuses and such only applying to the first attack.
Lecen_of_Mitran
06-19-07, 06:16 PM See the SRD revision thread for more on Dire Charge, but basically it should be updated in 3.5 to match the update given to pounce - you can full attack at the end of a charge. Allowing movement after is problematic as noted.

As for how the damage goes when you charge (especially if you are a cavalier), I believe my take on it was that the double and the charging attack bonus (+2) should only apply to the first attack. The AC penalty applies all the time. If you do Ride-by-Attack, you only get 1 attack. Note that if your mount has Dire Charge, and you don't, it can full attack at the end and not you, and vice-versa.

ROB

Weird, because the Cavalier prestige class from Complete Warrior has a special ability that let the character make a full attack after it´s mount move more than 10ft. if I´m not mistaken.

But, you can´t make a charge with this special ability. Dire Charge should be like that.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tequila_Sunrise 06-17-07, 10:43 PM	Reasonably, if a character is able to make a full attack at the end of a charge, he/she would also be able to do so as a standard action. I can't think of any particular reason as to how this could unbalance anything, but I could be wrong. Ideas?
Archtyrant Terevoth 06-17-07, 11:05 PM	Very unbalancing with tumble. You can start in melee, full attack as a standard, then move back with your move action and not draw any AoOs. If the other guy doesn't have pounce, then you're getting like 4-5 attacks to one.
Tequila_Sunrise 06-18-07, 12:12 AM	Very true. It would be easy to stipulate that a character cannot modify their movement while moving/full attacking, so keep the criticisms coming!
Lecen_of_Mitran 06-18-07, 09:12 AM	Reasonably, if a character is able to make a full attack at the end of a charge, he/she would also be able to do so as a standard action. I can't think of any particular reason as to how this could unbalance anything, but I could be wrong. Ideas? Fine. Make it work like Pounce or something similar, where you can use all the time. Believe me, after seeing Barbarians getting this at level first, I won´t say it´s broken. Even so, at lvl 21+, a combatant wouldnt minde having the chance to full attack when he moves, even more when spellcaster are much more stronger. About tumble: the rogue full attack, and the tumble way out of the Great Wyrm Red Dragon´s area. The dragon moves and full attack him back. Rogue´s dead. Balanced. Serious! At lvl 21+, a Cleric can true ressurect for free (with the right feat)!
Tequila_Sunrise 06-18-07, 01:35 PM	About tumble: the rogue full attack, and the tumble way out of the Great Wyrm Red Dragon´s area. The dragon moves and full attack him back. Rogue´s dead. Balanced. Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I don't like balance to be dependant on an enemy having the same feat that you do. Here is the new Dire Charge: Dire Charge allows two options: 1. The option presented in the ELH. 2. As a full round action, you can make a full attack and move up to your base speed in a straight line. If you use this option, you cannot modify your movement in any way such as by Hiding, Moving Silently or Tumbling. Neither option is actually a full attack, so you cannot use attacks derived from anything other than your base attack bonus, such as from the haste spell or by wielding a secondary weapon, unless you would normally be able to gain such attacks as part of a charge or standard action. Rip it apart if you can.
Lecen_of_Mitran 06-18-07, 03:08 PM	Dire Charge allows two options: 1. The option presented in the ELH. 2. As a full round action, you can make a full attack and move up to your base speed in a straight line. If you use this option, you cannot modify your movement in any way such as by Hiding, Moving Silently or Tumbling. I liked number two. And I would add the following: you can´t make a charge with a horse and get the double damage from it (all the attacks getting double damage, I mean). Or one or another. How about that? What´s your thought?
rob_douglas 06-19-07, 11:39 AM	See the SRD revision thread for more on Dire Charge, but basically it should be updated in 3.5 to match the update given to pounce - you can full attack at the end of a charge. Allowing movement after is problematic as noted. As for how the damage goes when you charge (especially if you are a cavalier), I believe my take on it was that the double and the charging attack bonus (+2) should only apply to the first attack. The AC penalty applies all the time. If you do Ride-by-Attack, you only get 1 attack. Note that if your mount has Dire Charge, and you don't, it can full attack at the end and not you, and vice-versa. ROB
Tequila_Sunrise 06-19-07, 01:39 PM	Thanks for the input; I'm adding a clause about charge bonuses and such only applying to the first attack.
Lecen_of_Mitran 06-19-07, 06:16 PM	See the SRD revision thread for more on Dire Charge, but basically it should be updated in 3.5 to match the update given to pounce - you can full attack at the end of a charge. Allowing movement after is problematic as noted. As for how the damage goes when you charge (especially if you are a cavalier), I believe my take on it was that the double and the charging attack bonus (+2) should only apply to the first attack. The AC penalty applies all the time. If you do Ride-by-Attack, you only get 1 attack. Note that if your mount has Dire Charge, and you don't, it can full attack at the end and not you, and vice-versa. ROB Weird, because the Cavalier prestige class from Complete Warrior has a special ability that let the character make a full attack after it´s mount move more than 10ft. if I´m not mistaken. But, you can´t make a charge with this special ability. Dire Charge should be like that.