Divine Power [Archive] - Wizards Community

Divine Power [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bluetooth
06-09-07, 09:16 AM Sorry to post a new thread about something that certainly must have been dealt with by now, but I can't seem to find anything relating to how the Divine Power spell works at epic levels.

I found an archived thread that mentioned it, but it was a thread about something else with only one person mentioning a previous thread in which Divine Power at epic levels became an issue.

The Divine Power spell grants (among other things) a base attack bonus equal to your character level. Now the epic rules say (I believe) that any time the rules refer to base attack bonus they mean BAB + EAB. Does this mean that a level 40 cleric casting this spell has +40 to hit (plus other modifiers) when a level 40 fighter has +30?
bluemage55
06-09-07, 10:31 AM The PHB (although not the SRD) version caps at +20. The PHB version is correct.

This means a 40th level cleric has +30, just like a 30th level fighter.
rob_douglas
06-09-07, 11:15 AM My version of the PHB doesn't cap. That said, it should definitely cap. No one took epic levels into account when writing that spell. Its wording hasn't changed since 3.0, and when they wrote it in 3.0, they didn't yet know how they were going to handle BAB at Epic.

ROB
bluetooth
06-09-07, 11:24 AM I suspected it would work like that. So if you have a BAB of +17 going into epic then that spell isn't nearly as useful, though it's still good for +6 str and a tad bit of temporary hit points.

I'm still new at epic. haven't even gotten there yet in my game, but I saw someone on a board that said if your game goes to level 30 then you pretty much have to build your character at 30 and then work backwards or you'll end up with a piece of crap.

I have a pretty standard gish build going into epic, but given the way EAP and ESB works I figured I would start leaning towards my spellcasting side. (actually this is what I've been doing from the beginning). I favor item creation so I'm looking at Master Arcane Artisan and I'm an elf in a Forgotten Realms game, so I'm also looking at Elven High Mage.

The High Mage looks particularly useful for me, as a gish, since I can make epic spells with the Mythal seed and then add "Change Area to Personal" at the end of my mitigating factors creating incredible buff spells for myself. Both the Arcane Artisan and High Mage get spell levels every other level, and I'm already two caster levels behind, so Practiced Spellcaster won't keep my caster level up for long.

The thing is, I don't actually know how much of a problem loosing caster levels really is in epic. My guess would be just about everything has a really high SR, though many of my spells are personal buffs and battlefield control while most of the others are used out of combat like Fabricate, teleport, etc.

The reason I switched from talking about BAB to CL so quickly is because part of my build is Abjurant Champion, and I was wondering if that 5th level was worth taking or not (though d10 HD might be worth it on it's own).

Now, with personal mythals, I can increase my defensive capabilities enough that I'm confident in my ability to defend myself, but with my caster level beginning to suffer, I'm less sure I'll be able to keep up offensively. Unfortunately there's not much in the way of official epic spellcaster prestige classes. Also, High Magic and Item creation are very much a part of this guy's character.

I just don't know if he'll end up being on par with other level 30 characters when he hits character level 30.
rob_douglas
06-09-07, 11:35 AM Yes Divine Power is nearly useless at Epic, but it is only a 4th level spell. Don't forget the +6 strength won't stack with your Belt I am sure you will have. So it amounts to +3 to hit and +20 or so hp. It is +5 to hit and an extra attack for a regular cleric, which is a little better, and that is what it is designed to help.

One thing I allow as a DM especially for Epics is some amount of "re-tooling". The PHBII has some rules, but I allow even more - maybe a Wish for major changes, but minor ones, and even a couple of levels here and there I can let through. Because as you said, growing a character naturally up to level 30 will be a lot different.

Caster level is very important, and you should favor classes that grant caster level. This is rule #1 of character optimization. I don't know if I would allow Divine Power to increase your caster level as a result of Abjurant Champion - seems cheesy to me - but I am not a big fan of that class anyway (I think it is overpowered). Anyway, The second rule of EPic optimizing is to get Epic Bonus feats early and often. Figure out your best PrC and advance it to get your bonus feats. Don't take other non-epic PrCs. You can go for an Epic PrC, like Cosmic Descryer (loses caster level, but look what it can do at level 7!). Getting through SR can be good, but since most things will save on a 1, the goal there is to fire off lots of spells, or combine spells with buffed melee attacks so that something happens every round. Buffing is often superior.

Good luck,
ROB
bluetooth
06-09-07, 12:00 PM Thanks,

I appreicate the suggestions, and while High Mage is something too in character not to go for, I think if I just take 5 levels I won't loose any caster levels (due to Practiced Spellcaster that I already have). Arcane Artisan is something I can live without, although this too is a class I would take for RP purposes.

Maybe there's a way I can use those classes strengths to make up for my dwindling caster level.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bluetooth 06-09-07, 09:16 AM	Sorry to post a new thread about something that certainly must have been dealt with by now, but I can't seem to find anything relating to how the Divine Power spell works at epic levels. I found an archived thread that mentioned it, but it was a thread about something else with only one person mentioning a previous thread in which Divine Power at epic levels became an issue. The Divine Power spell grants (among other things) a base attack bonus equal to your character level. Now the epic rules say (I believe) that any time the rules refer to base attack bonus they mean BAB + EAB. Does this mean that a level 40 cleric casting this spell has +40 to hit (plus other modifiers) when a level 40 fighter has +30?
bluemage55 06-09-07, 10:31 AM	The PHB (although not the SRD) version caps at +20. The PHB version is correct. This means a 40th level cleric has +30, just like a 30th level fighter.
rob_douglas 06-09-07, 11:15 AM	My version of the PHB doesn't cap. That said, it should definitely cap. No one took epic levels into account when writing that spell. Its wording hasn't changed since 3.0, and when they wrote it in 3.0, they didn't yet know how they were going to handle BAB at Epic. ROB
bluetooth 06-09-07, 11:24 AM	I suspected it would work like that. So if you have a BAB of +17 going into epic then that spell isn't nearly as useful, though it's still good for +6 str and a tad bit of temporary hit points. I'm still new at epic. haven't even gotten there yet in my game, but I saw someone on a board that said if your game goes to level 30 then you pretty much have to build your character at 30 and then work backwards or you'll end up with a piece of crap. I have a pretty standard gish build going into epic, but given the way EAP and ESB works I figured I would start leaning towards my spellcasting side. (actually this is what I've been doing from the beginning). I favor item creation so I'm looking at Master Arcane Artisan and I'm an elf in a Forgotten Realms game, so I'm also looking at Elven High Mage. The High Mage looks particularly useful for me, as a gish, since I can make epic spells with the Mythal seed and then add "Change Area to Personal" at the end of my mitigating factors creating incredible buff spells for myself. Both the Arcane Artisan and High Mage get spell levels every other level, and I'm already two caster levels behind, so Practiced Spellcaster won't keep my caster level up for long. The thing is, I don't actually know how much of a problem loosing caster levels really is in epic. My guess would be just about everything has a really high SR, though many of my spells are personal buffs and battlefield control while most of the others are used out of combat like Fabricate, teleport, etc. The reason I switched from talking about BAB to CL so quickly is because part of my build is Abjurant Champion, and I was wondering if that 5th level was worth taking or not (though d10 HD might be worth it on it's own). Now, with personal mythals, I can increase my defensive capabilities enough that I'm confident in my ability to defend myself, but with my caster level beginning to suffer, I'm less sure I'll be able to keep up offensively. Unfortunately there's not much in the way of official epic spellcaster prestige classes. Also, High Magic and Item creation are very much a part of this guy's character. I just don't know if he'll end up being on par with other level 30 characters when he hits character level 30.
rob_douglas 06-09-07, 11:35 AM	Yes Divine Power is nearly useless at Epic, but it is only a 4th level spell. Don't forget the +6 strength won't stack with your Belt I am sure you will have. So it amounts to +3 to hit and +20 or so hp. It is +5 to hit and an extra attack for a regular cleric, which is a little better, and that is what it is designed to help. One thing I allow as a DM especially for Epics is some amount of "re-tooling". The PHBII has some rules, but I allow even more - maybe a Wish for major changes, but minor ones, and even a couple of levels here and there I can let through. Because as you said, growing a character naturally up to level 30 will be a lot different. Caster level is very important, and you should favor classes that grant caster level. This is rule #1 of character optimization. I don't know if I would allow Divine Power to increase your caster level as a result of Abjurant Champion - seems cheesy to me - but I am not a big fan of that class anyway (I think it is overpowered). Anyway, The second rule of EPic optimizing is to get Epic Bonus feats early and often. Figure out your best PrC and advance it to get your bonus feats. Don't take other non-epic PrCs. You can go for an Epic PrC, like Cosmic Descryer (loses caster level, but look what it can do at level 7!). Getting through SR can be good, but since most things will save on a 1, the goal there is to fire off lots of spells, or combine spells with buffed melee attacks so that something happens every round. Buffing is often superior. Good luck, ROB
bluetooth 06-09-07, 12:00 PM	Thanks, I appreicate the suggestions, and while High Mage is something too in character not to go for, I think if I just take 5 levels I won't loose any caster levels (due to Practiced Spellcaster that I already have). Arcane Artisan is something I can live without, although this too is a class I would take for RP purposes. Maybe there's a way I can use those classes strengths to make up for my dwindling caster level.