Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bluetooth 06-07-07, 11:18 PM	Hi all, I'm somewhat new to the Epic Board (this is my first post), and I'm hoping someone can help me. I've been looking around for information about gaining divine ranks as a PC. I have found some information (or ideas rather and I'm sure there's nothing official about this yet *crosses fingers and prays for a Complete Epic). Specifically what I'm thinking about is a character (specifically an epic spellcaster) achieving divine rank. I think most of the abilities that Divine Rank 0 and even Divine Rank 1 grant can be granted by epic spells, but that raises the question: If I grant myself every ability of a diety (including natural immortality) does that actually make me a diety? Further, while I've seen a diety PrC or two, I think it would make more sense to make becoming a diety a combination of an epic PrC and a progression of epic spells like the Dragon and Avangion in darksun. But that's just my opinion. Aside from the straitforward adding of abilities (natural armor, speed, etc) is there anything that isn't straitforward that a PC would have to pick up in order to be considered a diety? thanks
bluemage55 06-07-07, 11:52 PM	You can duplicate the powers of a deity, but it doesn't make you one. For example, you can use spells to give yourself all the abilities of a goblin, but that doesn't mean that you actually are one unless you use an instantaneous spell that turns you into one.
goro 06-07-07, 11:53 PM	Check THIS (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineRanksPowers.htm) out, for more info.
bluetooth 06-08-07, 12:05 AM	thanks goro, but I had that already. BlueMage, that was kind of my point. I was specifically asking what needed to be added to a character besides deific abilities to qualify as one.
bluemage55 06-08-07, 12:19 AM	BlueMage, that was kind of my point. I was specifically asking what needed to be added to a character besides deific abilities to qualify as one. My point is that nothing will allow you to qualify as one, other than somehow adding DvR 0. That said, I would allow an epic spell that forces you to lose 6 levels in return for DvR 0 (since DvR 0 is approximately LA +6).
bluetooth 06-08-07, 12:22 AM	well you can do just about anything with epic spells and DM approval, but it seems a bit overly simplistic to just have a seed called "Divine Ascension" But if you had to do it that way, would there be any reason to make the Spellcraft DC higher than the combination of all the abilities it provides?
ArochanoX 06-08-07, 02:25 AM	If you disregard the ascension merely as a epic spell, there are some other classic ways to get dvr 0 (the LA should be paid as normal). Kill a deity with higher divine rank than yours. So go and kill a DvR 0 creature and take its place in the cosmic struggle of deities. "Meet a God" by praying, magicks or by other means. Ask to become the deity's servant - a hero-deity or quasideity. Probably you'd need to successfully complete a quest before you'd gain the ascension. Become so powerful that the deities note your power and see you as their kin. Note, that there are no (at least I've not seen one) LA mentioned or even tried to calculate for a DvR 1. It could be over the top. But I guess that dicefreaks have already figured that out... :D
bluemage55 06-08-07, 03:50 AM	Kill a deity with higher divine rank than yours. So go and kill a DvR 0 creature and take its place in the cosmic struggle of deities. There is nothing to suggest that killing a deity gives you their power (if you are a mortal at least). "Meet a God" by praying, magicks or by other means. Ask to become the deity's servant - a hero-deity or quasideity. Probably you'd need to successfully complete a quest before you'd gain the ascension. This is possible. Become so powerful that the deities note your power and see you as their kin. This doesn't do anything unless a deity chooses to give you DvR 0, in which case it is similar to the one above.
ArochanoX 06-08-07, 05:27 AM	Bluemage, I was not referring to any rules. Just giving a guy without ideas some hints what might be enough to gain a DvR, nonethless it's DM:s judgement.
bluemage55 06-08-07, 05:31 AM	Bluemage, I was not referring to any rules. Just giving a guy without ideas some hints what might be enough to gain a DvR, nonethless it's DM:s judgement. You suggested it as a "classic way", which implies that it is backed by some sort of rules or flavor as evidence. To the contrary, there is nothing "classic" about it, unless you consider "classic" misconceptions.
Bernat 06-08-07, 05:37 AM	I think that by "classic way" he meant methods known by most of the people, though not necessarily accepted by each and every DM. I'm sure you knew of all those methods. But, do you know of the ascension method that consist on bathing a cockroach in virgin's blood in a full moon night, while having a barbarian tribe sing the Macarena around a fire? No, definately that's not a "classic way".
bluemage55 06-08-07, 06:06 AM	I'm sure you knew of all those methods. But, do you know of the ascension method that consist on bathing a cockroach in virgin's blood in a full moon night, while having a barbarian tribe sing the Macarena around a fire? No, definately that's not a "classic way". My point is that the way he suggested isn't actually "classic". It's generally not a method at all. There are no rules to suggest that it is feasible, and there are no D&D novels or stories to suggest that it is feasible. Thus, how can it be "classic" except as a "classic" mistake?
Bernat 06-08-07, 06:30 AM	Well, it is suggested as one method for gaining divinity in Deities and Demigods (Deicide, pg 220).
arxhaon 06-08-07, 01:22 PM	I seem to remember Raistlin becoming a god in the alternate future of Test of The Twins, and thats practically a DnD novel...
bluemage55 06-08-07, 02:02 PM	I seem to remember Raistlin becoming a god in the alternate future of Test of The Twins, and thats practically a DnD novel... He is imbued with divine power by the deities of good once Takhisis comes through the poartal so that he can actually beat her (which entails at least DvR 0), before he defeats her and takes her power.
Witch 06-08-07, 02:10 PM	This is the Epic Spell JD used: Created by Jaerom Darkwind and originally posted at Dicefreaks Constitute Transitive Nexus Conjuration/Transmutation Spellcraft DC: 246 Components: V, S, M, DF, XP, A, B, E, I, P, T, Dragon, Feat, Location, Sacrifice, Spell Display: Auditory, material, and visual Casting Time: 100 days, 10 hours, 11 minutes Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) To Develop: 2,214,000 gp; 45 days; 88,560 XP. Seeds: Armor (DC 14), fortify (damage reduction) (DC 17), fortify (energy resistance) (DC 17), fortify (spell resistance) (DC 27), fortify (grant statisic: divine rank 0) (DC 27), transform (DC 21); Factors: +15 natural armor bonus (+22 DC), add damage reduction 10/epic (+33 DC), add sonic resistance 20 (+38 DC), add special quality (deflection bonus equal to Cha bonus) (+10 DC), add special quality (immunity to ability damage) (+10 DC), add special quality (immunity to death effects) (+10 DC), add special quality (immunity to mind-affecting effects) (+10 DC), add special quality (immunity to energy drain) (+10 DC), add special quality (immunity to transmutations) (+10 DC), add uncommon special quality (maximum hit points per HD) (ad hoc +30 DC), add uncommon special quality (immortal traits) (ad hoc +30 DC), add spell resistance 54 (+116 DC), change type to Outsider (+5 DC), increase speed to 60 ft. (ad hoc +12 DC), change duration from temporary to permanent (x5 DC), change duration from permanent to instantaneous (x2 DC); Mitigating Factors: Abstinance (ad hoc –50 DC), add descriptor (ad hoc –12 DC), backlash (90d12 damage) (ad hoc –180 DC), backlash (decrease caster levels by 30 for 24 hours) (ad hoc –90 DC), backlash (lose arcane spellcasting for 14 days) (ad hoc –140 DC), backlash (lose divine spellcasting for 14 days) (ad hoc –140 DC), backlash (lose psionic manifesting for 14 days) (ad hoc –140 DC), backlash (lose psionic focus for 15 days) (ad hoc –105 DC), burn 20,000 XP (–200 DC), change from target to personal (–2 DC), contribute epic divine spell slot (ad hoc –19 DC), contribute epic psionic power slot (ad hoc –50 DC), Dragon component (ad hoc –10 DC), essentia component (ad hoc –27 DC), feat (Heroic Destiny) (ad hoc –12 DC), feat (Fearless Destiny) (ad hoc –16 DC), feat (Planar Touchstone) (ad hoc –12 DC), feat (Protected Destiny) (ad hoc –16 DC), immunities subject to rank check (ad hoc –30 DC), incantation component (9th; Authypnosis DC 68) (ad hoc –57 DC), incantation component (9th; Concentration DC 71) (ad hoc –57 DC), incantation component (9th; Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (psionics), Knowledge (religion) DC 78) (ad hoc –57 DC), incantation component (9th; Knowledge (the planes) DC 75) (ad hoc –57 DC), increase casting time by 10 minutes (–20 DC), increase casting time by 10 hours (–20 DC), increase casting time by 100 days (–200 DC), location component (ad hoc –400 DC), material component ([i]astral controller) (–236 DC), material component (ethereal controller) (–236 DC), material component (ordial controller) (–236 DC), material component (rod of infinite miracles) (–361 DC), material component (rod of endless reality revision) (–361 DC), material component (rod of unlimited wishes) (–361 DC), power component (34 action points) (ad hoc –152 DC), power component (psionic focus) (ad hoc –7 DC), power component (11 turn/rebuke attempts) (ad hoc –33 DC), sacrifice component (epic arcane spell slot) (–95 DC), sacrifice component (epic divine spell slot) (–95 DC), sacrifice component (epic psionic power slot) (–95 DC), truename component (ad hoc –57 DC). This mighty spell was conceived and designed by the red mage Jaerom Darkwind, and was the culmination of both the ideals of the order of red magi and of his own centuries-long quest--with this spell, Darkwind proved that it is possible for a man to attain divinity purely through personal effort and under his own power. The spell is tailored to his unique diversity of gifts and abilities, and requires the full extent of his personal power to cast; the caster must have epic skill in psionics as well as arcane and divine spellcasting; he must possess almost superhuman endurance in both mind and body as well as an inner reserve of strength far beyond that of most mortals; he must have a detailed and extensive knowledge of the mysteries of Incarnum, the lexicons of Truespeach, and the intricacies of Cosmic mechanics and planar engineering. The caster must have plumbed the depths of mortal learning and wisdom, and synthesized it all into a single whole. All this and more Darkwind did, and in the end he triumphed. This spell has the potential to catapult its caster to divinity. It operates by channeling energy from the three transitive planes--the Astral, the Ethereal, and the Ordial--and focusing it on the caster's location. (Though the existence of the Ordial Plane is uncertain, it is possible to calculate the approximate magical frequencies that would be necessary to channel its energy if it existed; these calculations are part of the research process.) At this point of convergence, the energies of the Realms of Dreams, Possibility, and Essence first resist each other, and then finally begin to react and synergize; over the course of one hundred days, they slowly combine into a nexus of pure energy. Once the nexus is fully formed, the magic uses it as a catalyst to amplify the latent power within the caster's own soul into a fully-realized divine spark. The trauma and agony of so much power rushing into the caster's body and soul is overpowering, and the strain of controlling so much raw energy enormous. However, if she survives it, the caster ascends to quasi-divinity. She gains divine rank 0, with all of the qualities and abilities that typically accompany it (see Deities and Demigods for more information). Abstinance: The caster must abstain from toxicants and stimulants for three months before casting this spell; she also must fast for forty days, and abstain from liquids for a week. She must not be suffering from any ability damage, ability drain, or energy drain at the time she casts the spell, including the effects of any previously cast sanctified or corrupt spell. The caster must abstain from sexual activity for one month, and she must not have cast any spells or manifested any powers within the last week before casting this spell. Backlash: Upon completion, the caster takes 90d12 points of backlash (untyped) damage. If backlash damage kills the caster, no spell or method exists that will return life to her body without costing her a level—not even wish, true resurrection, miracle, epic spells that return life to the deceased, or the Hand of Life SDA. Spells that normally penalize the recipient one level when they return her to life penalize a caster killed by backlash two levels. In addition, upon completion the caster loses the ability to cast arcane and divine spells and the ability to manifest psionic powers for fourteen days. After recovering her spellcasting abilities, she takes a -30 penalty to her arcane and divine caster levels and her psionic manifester level for 24 hours, and is unable to become psionically focused. Essentia Component: Nine points of essentia must be invested to power the spell. Unlike most incarnum spells, investng essentia into constitute transitive nexus is not optional--without it, the spell fails. Feats: In order to successfully cast this spell, the caster must have Heroic Destiny, Fearless Destiny, Protected Destiny, and Planar Touchstone. Incantations: At specific points during the casting, 9th-level incantations involving the following skills must be performed: Autohypnosis DC 68; Concentration DC 71; Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (psionics), and Knowledge (religion), three DC 78 checks each; Knowledge (the planes) DC 75. Location: An area under the effects of hallow and unhallow effects; within the radius of a category 4 earth node; on a plot of incarnate earth within the perimiter of a greater dolman circle; on a plane with the highly morphic, null gravity, positive dominant, and timeless traits; in the area of major planar breaches with the Astral, Ethereal, and Ordial planes. Material Components: Three intelligent magic items, called planar controllers, which help the caster monitor and control the flow of planar energy during the casting. A rod of infinite miracles, a rod of endless reality revision, and a rod of unlimited wishes, which serve as power sources for the spell. See below for magic item descriptions. Power Components: The caster must expend 11 turn or rebuke attempts, 34 action points, and her psionic focus. Sacrifice: The caster permanently loses one epic arcane spell slot, one epic divine spell slot, and one epic psionic power slot. Spell Component: In addition to the arcane spell slot used to cast the spell, the caster must contribute an epic divine spell slot and an epic psionic power slot. She must make a Psicraft check and an additional Spellcraft check, both against the spell’s DC. Truename Component: The caster must correctly speak her own truename (DC 105) nine times with varying inflections. This recitation causes subtle alterations in the caster's composition that help prepare her to receive the divine spark. XP Cost: 20,000 XP. New Magic Items Rod of Endless Reality Revision: This universal item is a solid and flawless shaft of green psionic crystal. With a command word, its wielder can use [i]reality revision, as the power, at will. . . Overwhelming clairsentience; ML 51st; Craft Universal Item, reality revision; Price 3,326,200 gp. Rod of Infinite Miracles: This simple mithral rod is capped in a large flawless diamond. With a command word, its wielder can use miracle, as the spell, at will. . . Overwhelming universal; CL 51st; Craft Rod, miracle; Price 3,326,200 gp. Rod of Unlimited Wishes: This ornate golden rod is capped in a large flawless ruby. With a command word, its wielder can use wish, as the spell, at will. . . Overwhelming universal; CL 51st; Craft Rod, wish; Price 3,326,200 gp.
Kihon 06-08-07, 02:11 PM	The Immortals Handbook is devoted specifically to this issue. There is a whole 300+ page book on becoming a true power. It is not exactly cannon, but it is accepted by many. I would urge you to check out Dicefreaks and see what they have to say on the matter. Bluemage as far as "rules" go - there are not any, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You think Vecna said - well this can't be done. Or how about St. Cuthbert? Both were human, both are now lesser powers. It does happen, just so rarely - perhaps 1 in 10,000 years that no one really understands it, probably least of all those undergoing the change. If a DM is going to let you become a true power, chances are you are done using that character - they now have worshipers to deal with, divine politics, plots that take thousands of years to fulfill, etc... The powers don't go adventuring - they send their mortal followers to do so.
rob_douglas 06-08-07, 03:45 PM	As you may be able to tell, the rules for divine ascension are free form. There are none. Many of the ideas presented here will work. I will go further and suggest that you may need some kind of artifact as well. The Codex of Infinite Planes, or the Throne of the Gods may do the trick. As for whether or not slaying/stealing power from another divine being is the "classic way" I always considered it such. That is how Zagyg ascended. Another way is to be born with it - ala Hercules. The DM should decide if he wants to run a deific campaign. If so, will all or some of the characters be deities? What level does he want to get up to. After that, he can provide Level Adjustment through play testing or asking around, and find a way to mechanically provide for the ascension. There are may suggested ways, and no reason to think that the same way will work for all characters. In some ways, it can be seen as being a perfected embodiment of something you represent. A Lawful Good servant of a god might be promoted by the god, but a chaotic evil being would have to take the power by enslaving powerful outsiders. In the Greyhawk campaign - Zagyg imprisoned 9 demigods(?) and siphoned power from them. (It has been revealed by Gygax that the term demigod was used loosely, and included Heironeous, Hextor, and Iuz). Iuz has trapped several powerful beings in the Soul Husks and gained deific power from them. Mayaheine was a paladin of Pelor from another world and was promoted by Pelor to demigodhood. The DM needs to decide how deific power flows, is there a limited amount, can it be stolen, how important are followers/worshippers. But there is no set of rules whereby you can tell the DM "I did X, Y and Z so now I am a god." ROB PS If someone asks "Are you a god?" - you say YES!!!!! :)
bluetooth 06-08-07, 05:00 PM	Well first let me start by thanking everyone, especially Witch and Rob, for the ideas. And I really didn't want to come out and admit this, but I'm not actually asking for this info as a player. In fact, I'm still in the planning stages for considering whether or not I want to run a deific campaign myself. I'm not unfamaliar with the immortals handbook (though I'm not an expert with it, yet) but after reading the entry for the neutronium golem, I realised doing a deific campaign might be possible. As far as the powers not adventuring...well not every DnD game is about going through a lost dungeon for treasure and glory. In the setting I'm considering, the gods have been "dead" for a thousand years. Of course what actually happened, is that in a confrontation with evil, the evil deity (who was a match for all the good dieties combined but still ended up loosing) convinced them that they really didn't know anything about mortals so how could they act in their best interests? The good dieties responded by setting up their "deaths" and reincarnations as mortals (including the evil deity) so that they could live mortal lives over and over again over the course of the next milennia. Obviously they took special care to enure their people who be taken care of (I'm working on the details of that still, but cleric for instance still have power though by the end of the thousand years no one is really sure where the clerics get their power and faith in the deities is quite low). This is where the game will begin, with low level PCs who are all the reincarnations of ancient dieties and no pantheon above them (for this world at least). Of course there will be forces trying to stop them from ascending and their ascension will not be easy (it will not be faith based, they will have to reclaim their power and I was thinking an epic spell would be the way to go in that respect.) After they ascend I intend to show that the gods do not sit around all day doing nothing, but actually present them with threats to their world on a regular basis that only they can handle. These will come from things like space-faring undead (there will be limits to the degree they can interfere directly with non-deities), cosmic natural disasters, Cthulhu, and wars among the gods of many worlds. I may have to end the game if they become the rulers of the gods, but I might think of something before then, although my goal is to keep the game focused on mortals. Once again, Witch, thanks for the post of that epic spell. I will probably split it up into 10 seperate epic spells (cause I love the Dragon and Avangion progressions from Darksun so much, and because I want deific ascension to be gradual). And I will see about looking into what Dicefreaks has to offer a bit more. Thanks again, everyone.