Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grandmaster_Kane 02-12-07, 04:23 PM	Me and 11 friends have decided that we are going to do 1 last campaign. A campaign so incredibly dangerous that the odds of survival for pretty much anyone is about 0 We are in the employ of the Demilich Grunoose Necromancer 30/ Horned harbinger 10/ Ture necromancer 10/Dread Necromancer 10/ Archmage 5/ Red wizard 5 And we must Dethrone the king of heroes. He has reached the peak of human perfection and rules the entire world behind the scenes (just under dieties). He has a powerful posses (much like gareth but uber strong) that is made up of his sons and 1 daughter Here they are Bo Dragovern (Ruler of the plains) Ranger 30/ Scout 28/ Highland stalker 10/ Order of the bow initiate 10 Dormeck Dragovern (Ruler of the mountains & tundra) Barbarian 40/ Fighter 17/ Frenzied berserker 10/ Unstoppable Juggernaut 10 The Tree Gaurdain (Ruler of the forest) Driud 50/Nature's warrior 10/ Master of many forms 10/ Forest master 10 The Magister (Ruler of the heartlands and Master of the Great tower) Sorecerer 35/ Envocker 35/ Arcane devotee 5/ Archmage5 Shandra Dragonvern (Ruler of the shadowlands) Rogue 30/ Ninja 20 /Assassin 20/ Shadowdancer 20 and finally Lord Taggeth Dragovern (King of Heroes) Paladin 40/ Cleric of Kelevmor 30/ Doom guide 10/ Hunter of the dead 10/ Shadowbane Inquisitor 10 Besides the dragoverns we have to worry about The finder Divanator 30/ Justiscar 10/ Windwalker 10/ Bloodhound 10/ Cosmic Descryer 10 who will rat us out to the dragovern agents at the drop of a silver also Taggeth has a dive rank of 0 My party only has a 65 average level so we are systematically destroying his entire army until we get enough levels to take on the big bad boss edit* Change them so that they were incrediibly multiclassed anymore
Witch 02-12-07, 04:31 PM	Why should we drool? I get the impression that this entire post is to try and impress us with somehow starting at high level. If it has another point, I will gladly try and help you, and apologize if this sounded rude.
Grandmaster_Kane 02-12-07, 05:29 PM	well i suppose it was ment a wi little bit to impress you but it really something we are in the process of doing I was really wondering if anybody had anything to really say about it or if anybody wanted to get in on the action
Witch 02-12-07, 05:32 PM	Well, I've got a bit of the comment on the builds, really: they seem tremendously multiclassed. I think your characters would make more sense (saying this without knowing their background, here), if they had less classes, but more levels in the same class. This would also grant you more bonus feats, and hence more epic power. For example, I find it weird as to why one of the players is both a master thrower and an order of the bow initiate :)
rob_douglas 02-12-07, 06:12 PM	Those weren't the characters, those were the "targets". Notice they have an ECL progression from 68 up to 100. So I guess the party are to take them on one at a time until they take out the 100 level guy, then they can go after the boss. I agree, the multiclassing seems to be suboptimal. Order of the Bow/Master Thrower??? ROB
Witch 02-12-07, 06:16 PM	Ah, not the characters. Strange that the players have their builds then. Nevertheless, the comments stand :)
Grandmaster_Kane 02-12-07, 08:23 PM	i thought about the master thrower class a bit as a back up class ( you know incase his bow should be sundered for any reason) And even thou they are crazy multi classed they are still building toward one particular goal
bluemage55 02-12-07, 08:59 PM	All that "crazy multi-classing" makes them utterly useless. With barely any bonus epic feats available to them and only a plethora of abilities that are mostly useless at epic, they're going to get smacked around with ease. The Order of the Bow shouldn't be worried about sunder. He should be worried about the fact that a non-epic caster can stop every single one of his arrows with wind wall, or the fact that the deflection tree will make all of his ranged attacks reflect at him.
Aluroon 02-12-07, 09:25 PM	Sounds like the kind of stuff people I knew in middle school came up with. Ruler of Rulers? oookkkkkkkk. As for the builds... reminds my of my work before I found out about epic feats... or read the epic level handbook. Pardon me if I refrain from drooling.
LordBOB777 02-12-07, 11:46 PM	........what if someone doesnt know how to drool or lacks saliva glands? Are you asking for help or are you just ranting?
ZolDarklock 02-13-07, 02:18 AM	I have seen much much worse, many many times, try walking into a massive underground arena with over a 100 of the realms most powerful npc's all laying in wait, and backed up by several avatars... first round 167 of the most deadliest spells went off "castings, contigencies, spells traps, etc., etc..." all my PC's lived thru it, go figure, anything CAN happen when you refuse to cheat/alter rolls, and they were only about 22 levels average hahahahha killing overpowered punks like the ones you named is childs play, tell me how do you suppose they would survive hundreds of tons of granite crashing into to them when dropped from the clouds...can you says nuke like devastation...hahahah damn you guys cant think outside the box, you guys cant phatom the crap my players and npcs can come up with to take out anything that exist's, it all a matter of just using the right equipment at the right time, sometimes ti8ming is everything, by the way my npc Fzoul did that to them, all my npc's play like geniuses, but only one can outsmarted them all in a single instance in time, killing avatars is childs play, survivng the fallout from ones actions is the hard part
bluemage55 02-13-07, 02:40 AM	I have seen much much worse, many many times, try walking into a massive underground arena with over a 100 of the realms most powerful npc's all laying in wait, and backed up by several avatars... first round 167 of the most deadliest spells went off "castings, contigencies, spells traps, etc., etc..." all my PC's lived thru it, go figure, anything CAN happen when you refuse to cheat/alter rolls, and they were only about 22 levels average Either you're a liar, or all of those epic NPCs were played like idiots, because there is no possibility that a 22nd level part can survive even 10 of the strongest NPCs of Faerun. As far as I'm aware, just Daurgothoth alone could wipe out your party without breaking a sweat. Same goes for Tchazaar, Larloch, or Elminster.
MacGyver_ 02-13-07, 03:54 AM	Some duct tape, nitrate, cellulose, and acid will solve this problem quite nicely.
Aluroon 02-13-07, 07:27 AM	Looks like this has turned into another tard thread... Note, I'm in full agreement with Bluemage on ZolDarkLock. Either your lying, you play npcs like most dm's play dragons, or the 100 most powerful npc's were between 5th-10th level.
Grandmaster_Kane 02-13-07, 10:19 AM	My Dm is using varient rules on the epic feats he is acquiring them like normal feats
Witch 02-13-07, 10:31 AM	My Dm is using varient rules on the epic feats he is acquiring them like normal feats That's not a variant, that's the rules. Any feat you get by virtue of hit dice, over level 20, can be an epic feat. However, Epic Bonus feats mean you have more.
Aluroon 02-13-07, 10:53 AM	My Dm is using varient rules on the epic feats he is acquiring them like normal feats .... You are saying this while at the same time saying you are playing level 65 characters... /puke.
Rickiel 02-13-07, 04:33 PM	*Holds up his hand* I've done worse. Much much worse. And if no one minds, I'll refrain from drooling thank you.
pflame5000 02-13-07, 07:18 PM	Is the whole point of this thread just to impress?
bluemage55 02-13-07, 08:05 PM	Is the whole point of this thread just to impress? Yes. But it fails to do so because the execution is noobtastic.
SokenzanMarauder 02-13-07, 11:46 PM	Okay, and? I'm not drooling, nor am I particularly impressed. All you've succeeded in doing is making several ridiculously high level NPCs with generally sub-optimal class choice. Try again. -Gene
Grandmaster_Kane 02-14-07, 05:56 PM	Yes. But it fails to do so because the execution is noobtastic. hey there is no reason to use the n word everybody makes mistakes :mad:
bluemage55 02-14-07, 06:04 PM	hey there is no reason to use the n word everybody makes mistakes :mad: I apologize if I offended you, but I must point out that when you take such an overly condescending attitude ("don't drool over this"), you are not likely to invite approval when your attitude is not justified.
angryman 02-14-07, 09:52 PM	A LITTLE STORY When I was a lot younger and loved stupidly munchkinny games, my favourite character was a level 360 God (I'll spare you the details). I gated myself to another universe and fought against what were basically fleets of Imperial Star Destroyers and Battle Stations. It was fun, but so was burning ants with a magnifying glass when I was 7. One of my friends had a character whose every melee attack was a nuclear blast and he had about 10 attacks a round. He accidentally killed our party the moment he got it by attacking us with 10x nuclear warheads. He survived. And my favourite, long ago, another friend worked out how to get infinite levels in 2e AD&D and his character ended up as a 36,000th level ninja. Unfortuntely I kid you not. Sorry, what were you talking about?
rob_douglas 02-15-07, 11:52 AM	If we are confessing to childish muchkinisms... When I was 10-12, I designed a prison to hold all the good gods from all the pantheons in the original Deities and Demigods - and all the evil gods were their jailers. Then I proceeded to take a character and mow down all the evil gods to release the good ones. Just open to a random page, kill that god, and move on.... ;) That is why they put those stats in a book, right? :) ROB
Witch 02-15-07, 12:06 PM	Haha =) Dear dear, confession silliness of that degree is fun. A campaign I played in ended up with summoning both Demogorgon and Asmodeus simply to kill them temporarily and end their influence on the mortal coil. I also had one where I was an archwizard that came from the future and commanded an army of mechs. That one was amusing. I don't think I ever did anything of far higher degrees of epic silliness though. Never really got the chance.
Thomas_Covenant 02-15-07, 03:04 PM	Well, I guess I can add my two bits here, I've Dm'ed some legendary "Monty Hall" campaigns in my day. (Before 3.X, and before I realized the joys of using a willingness to kill characters who truly deserve it.) I think my top two were: One time the PC's were very nearly using the Orc Pantheon as a checklist of creatures to kill, and everyone had at least one full-fledged major artifact. The best, though, was when another group decided to go straight at Bahamut's flying, teleporting, plane hopping Citadel....and they *Won*. Keep in mind, he did have all 7 max age Gold Dragons on-hand, and they had to fight through a few heavy encounters before that, including a team of two Solars who used Wish and Heal effectively, along with their infinite arrows of anything slaying. (In that edition, no saving throw, iirc.) That pretty much ended that campaign though....Bahamut did come back to attempt to try to retake his palace (Gods had little trouble doing this at the time) but failed miserably, no shock there.
ZolDarklock 02-16-07, 12:12 AM	Either you're a liar, or all of those epic NPCs were played like idiots, because there is no possibility that a 22nd level part can survive even 10 of the strongest NPCs of Faerun. As far as I'm aware, just Daurgothoth alone could wipe out your party without breaking a sweat. Same goes for Tchazaar, Larloch, or Elminster. there were no epic it was 2e, by the rules, during the ToT, you would be surprised at the things that can go awry during the ToT, PS - the physical chaos that was generated did more damage to everyone than the battle
ZolDarklock 02-16-07, 12:24 AM	trust me if you ever played 2e by the rules during the ToT you would realize that literally anything can happen in real combat situation were rolls are not fudged... PS - the physical and magical chaos effects from the fight did more harm to everyone than the battle did... that battle was nothing, should have seen the look on Bane and a few other avatars faces when Fzoul pulled up above them and disconnected his spelljammer helm from his floating castle, and it came down crashing thru the roof...in my world, even the npc's play to win, by any means possible not many avatars "actually none" can withstand a hundreds of tons of granite dropped from the clouds on there head....it was all over but the crying, even avatars in 3.5 would be hard pressed to survive that kind of blow, and if they were there during the ToT they would be history along with them other pathetic overpowered punks you named off... IU'm sure you will come up with some rule justifing there survival, I'm sure it will be humorous to us all ;-)
ZolDarklock 02-16-07, 12:37 AM	Looks like this has turned into another tard thread... Note, I'm in full agreement with Bluemage on ZolDarkLock. Either your lying, you play npcs like most dm's play dragons, or the 100 most powerful npc's were between 5th-10th level. apparently you guys never played 2e during the ToT by the magical/physical chaos rules that applied during that time and by the way Fzoul won that battle single handed, he just parked a floating castle in the clouds above everybody and powered down /cut loose it's helm from the castle, it was all over but the crying for everyone in the area effect of the hundreds of tons of granite that came down on them from the clouds....sorry folks even all your favorite overpowered punks bit the dust with ease.... hmmmm seems you folks dont allow your npc's to think outside the box, mine prefer to play smarter, but only one can be the smartest of them all
bluemage55 02-16-07, 02:12 AM	And none of these extremely powerful NPCs were capable of escaping either with a saving throw or teleportation magic? :rolleyes: Like I said, you play your NPCs like they have Int 6.
Aluroon 02-16-07, 08:49 AM	So basically your saying that all the spells failed to work? ...
Uberman 02-17-07, 02:59 PM	Either you're a liar, or all of those epic NPCs were played like idiots, because there is no possibility that a 22nd level part can survive even 10 of the strongest NPCs of Faerun. As far as I'm aware, just Daurgothoth alone could wipe out your party without breaking a sweat. Same goes for Tchazaar, Larloch, or Elminster. How do you know? You know the party? I've seen 20th level characters solo Great Prismatic worms, and I've seen 30th level characters fall to WHITE dragons... ANYTHING can happen. it all depends on tactics, contingencies, what the party/enemy is immune/resistant/weak to, and most of all: LUCK. Try thinking before you speak/type. I've seen several NON-EPIC builds that can defeat Elminster, et all. Most of the so called "epic" NPC's that are printed are sorely under-powered for their level.
Uberman 02-17-07, 03:02 PM	apparently you guys never played 2e during the ToT by the magical/physical chaos rules that applied during that time and by the way Fzoul won that battle single handed, he just parked a floating castle in the clouds above everybody and powered down /cut loose it's helm from the castle, it was all over but the crying for everyone in the area effect of the hundreds of tons of granite that came down on them from the clouds....sorry folks even all your favorite overpowered punks bit the dust with ease.... hmmmm seems you folks dont allow your npc's to think outside the box, mine prefer to play smarter, but only one can be the smartest of them all Don't know about 2E but in the current edition you could drop a planet on someone and they still only take 20d6 damage.. ;)
SokenzanMarauder 02-17-07, 08:10 PM	I've seen 20th level characters solo Great Prismatic worms This is an example of a dragon being played incorrectly. I've seen 30th level characters fall to WHITE dragons... This is an example of a dragon being played correctly. ANYTHING can happen. it all depends on tactics, contingencies, what the party/enemy is immune/resistant/weak to, and most of all: LUCK. I agree with this. Try thinking before you speak/type. :rolleyes: I've seen several NON-EPIC builds that can defeat Elminster, et all. Most of the so called "epic" NPC's that are printed are sorely under-powered for their level. Elminister in particular is one of the most un-optimized pieces of trash out of the FR setting. -Gene
Thomas_Covenant 02-17-07, 08:16 PM	Elminister in particular is one of the most un-optimized pieces of trash out of the FR setting.Yeesh. You got that right. Any single-class 18th level full spellcaster with PC wealth should mop the floor with Elminster as written in the majority of duels, and that's without preparation. With preparation, they should only lose to a seriously unlucky save, or if he summons most of the Seven Sisters (which, come to think of it, he actually might...) or the like, those "Epic" PC's are an utter joke as written, no matter how you look at it.
bluemage55 02-17-07, 08:50 PM	How do you know? You know the party? I've seen 20th level characters solo Great Prismatic worms, and I've seen 30th level characters fall to WHITE dragons... ANYTHING can happen. it all depends on tactics, contingencies, what the party/enemy is immune/resistant/weak to, and most of all: LUCK. Luck doesn't matter as much as intelligent playing does. CR exists as a measure of power. If you can beat the CR 63 Ioulaum with a weak little low-epic character, something is really wrong, either with the CR or the players/DM using the characters (much more likely). I really don't care much for your hearsay evidence that a 20th level character can solo a great prismatic wyrm. If you can show me how it can be done without rules loopholes (e.g. Pun-Pun and the like), then go ahead.
Aluroon 02-19-07, 10:40 AM	This is an example of a dragon being played incorrectly. This is an example of a dragon being played correctly. I agree with this. :rolleyes: Elminister in particular is one of the most un-optimized pieces of trash out of the FR setting. -Gene A man after my own heart. All your responses are spot on with mine :).
Elessar Lespin 02-19-07, 11:00 AM	I bet I could take the entire party out with one lvl 38 npc...
Uberman 02-20-07, 01:47 AM	Luck doesn't matter as much as intelligent playing does. CR exists as a measure of power. If you can beat the CR 63 Ioulaum with a weak little low-epic character, something is really wrong, either with the CR or the players/DM using the characters (much more likely). I really don't care much for your hearsay evidence that a 20th level character can solo a great prismatic wyrm. If you can show me how it can be done without rules loopholes (e.g. Pun-Pun and the like), then go ahead. OK, don't have a clue who Ioulaum is, but I'm pretty sure a lvl 40-50 party could beat him.. specifically if he's one of the printed characters... Ya know, people get WAY too caught up on "CR".. Maybe it's just our group, but CR's of your level or a little higher are usually too easy, and when you get epic, CR becomes practically meaningless.. Take the Iron Collusus for example... If you can get around/function inside the anti-magic field, it's no problem at lvl 25, wheras if your party is made of entirely people screwed by anti-magic, it can take down level 40's. Devastation beetle.... Unintelligent creature that can't fly and doesn't have a ranged attack.... A winged elven archer can kill it fairly low level if he's got 8000 arrows. (1 in 8000 chance of rolling 3 20's= instant kill). Uber undead monster CR 2 million vs drumsticks of disruption.. sure he has to nat-1 the save, but that happens on average once in 20 attacks.. so when characters can take 30-60 attacks a round, that = undeath to death. As for the beating of a great Prismatic Wyrm by a 20th lvl character, I spoke to my guy, and he gave me this: Slayer Human male; 5 Wizard, 1 Cleric, 4 Thrall of Demogorgon (Book of Vile Darkness), 10 Dweomer Keeper (Complete Divine Web Enhancement) Feats: Empower spell(PHB), Sudden Maximize (Complete Arcane), Twin spell(Complete Arcane), Split Ray (Complete Arcane), Thrall to Demon (BoVD), Willing Deformity (BoVD), Arcane Thesis (Ray of stupidity) (PHBII), Improved Initiative (PHB), Lucky Start (Complete Scoundrel) Domains: Magic, Luck Ability Scores: Dex: 22 (16 Base + 6 Enhancement) Int: 34 (18 Base + 5 Level + 5 Inherant + 6 Enhancement) Initiative: +10 Equipment: Rod of Maximize Lesser Rod of Quicken Greater +5 Tome of Int +6 Dex and Int Item Ring of Permanent Divine Power (Caster Level 20)* Ring of Permanent Haste* Wings of Flying (*=Custom items from DMG chart.) Step One: Activate Dual Actions Ability (Thrall of Demogorgon) Step Two: Approach the Dragon (2 Move Actions of 90ft each) Step Three: Cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction on Dragon. Apply Rod of Quicken to make it a swift action. Step Four: Cast an Empowered, Twinned, Split Rayed Ray of Stupidity at the Dragon. Apply Rod of Maximize. Use Supernatural Spell ability (Dweomer Keeper). 4 attack rolls at +28 to hit Touch AC 29. Each hit deals 7 Int Damage. Step Five: Repeat step four. Step Six: Cast a Twinned, Split Rayed Ray of Stupidity at the Dragon. Apply Rod of Quicken to make it a swift action. Apply Sudden Maximize. Use Supernatural Spell ability (Dweomer Keeper). 4 attack rolls at +28 to hit Touch AC 29. Each hit deals 5 Int Damage. Note: 12 Attacks are made. Statistically, you will roll one or less natural 1's. If you do, you may use the luck domain to reroll. Additionally, you can afford to miss one of the rays and still drop the Dragon, which has an Int of 64 (You should be dealing up to 76 Int Damage). You should be beating the Dragon in Initiative (As you have two rolls and a much better initiative modifier), and as long as you begin the encounter within 245ft of the Dragon, you should statistically have a very high chance of dropping it into a coma immediatly.
Uberman 02-20-07, 01:50 AM	Oh and as for luck not mattering.. Statistcally a lvl 1 commoner has a 1 in 160,000 chance of killing any non-divine rank being that isn't immune to a triple-crit. Nat 20 the init, triple-20 the attack roll.
Thomas_Covenant 02-20-07, 02:18 AM	Oh-kay....generally, when using examples, you don't want to depend on multiple house rules that don't exist anywhere in print. (Triple crit = death, natural 20 on init means you mean "win" init.) Even with your house rules, you're still outright wrong in your assertion. Pre-Epic, the Paranoid Wizard with Foresight + Celerity still gets an autowin. Luck always matters, but smart Wizards make their own Luck.
Caros 02-20-07, 09:48 AM	Heh, heard about this thread, thought I'd step off the CO boards to give it a quick look. Firstly, the nat 20 inniative is a house rule. The Triple crit is a varient rule out of the DMG (Page 28). Secondly, Celerity, like Anticipitory strike (its psionic equivilent) has one fatal flaw. I beat you in inniative, You cast celerity. Okay, in response I cast celerity. You've wasted both our swift actions. Whupty. Of note, this response only really works if I don't win iniative, but still =) Bluemage, much as I love your work on the epic forums, you are wrong on this, as are the crowd of people who use CR as an accurate judgement. The problem with the CR system is that it cannot deal with extremes. First off it just flat out does NOT work in epic, and works at best sparingly at high level. I have personally RP'd a frenzy berzerker one rounding a balor at level 14. It saw me, I saw it, Iniative, Leap attack, I believe some form of pounce (Lions charge) Dead. This is because PC's simpy have too many options open to them at epic levels, and because most characters become too specialized. The above example of the iron colossus is a prime example, another exampe is that the above frenzied berzerker got utterly destroyed three levels higher at 17 by a 10th level mage. By CR I'd have slaughtered him, but I couldn't see invis and didn't have sense enough to throw flour etc. A cr 20 red dragon is not the same challenge for a party of melee fighters as it is for a party of mages, not even close. CR is their best guess of what kind of challege a creature would be for the iconic non-optimized/minmaxed D&D party. You want an example of this, see above. The great prismatic falls to that level 20 caster more often than not. However, remove dwomerkeeper and the same character build is slaughtered. CR. Does. Not. Work. ^_^; As for playing them smart. That does play a large part in D&D, forewarned is forearmed and all that. Realistically the above build isn't that bad if you are prepared to deal with the int damage before it happens. The problem with that idea lies in the concept of "Why the hell would the prismatic be prepared to fight this paticular niche build. Furthermore, due to its arrogance, why would it even consider this mortal a threat?" Oh and I'm going to post a build tomorrow for a somewhat melee character. Also a shuriken thrower and possibly a few others. All in all, good thread.
bluemage55 02-20-07, 10:35 AM	Your argument doesn't prove that CR doesn't work. Rather, it proves that there are classes, feats, and other materials that are unbalanced and need to be fixed or removed entirely. If the dweomerkeeper class allows a 20th level character to beat a prismatic dragon, then it isn't a problem with the CR of the prismatic dragon, but a problem with the dweomerkeeper class.
Caros 02-20-07, 11:00 AM	Okay, fine. In the next three days, to prove my argument I'll go with... Say ten different builds with as little overlap as possible that can all kill the dragon. Why? Because specialist builds are good at what they do! It's not a matter of overpowered and arbitrarily banning feats, spells and class abilities. Survivability, in real life and D&D is zero, if someone wants to kill you enough, they WILL kill you. Take the prismatic. By itself, a character that is meant to fight a variety of encounters gets slaughtered by it. However, the specialist character, in this case the dwomerkeeper who's specialization is defeating SR, (Keep in mind thats what the supernatural spell does, it beats the dragons SR. OMG NERF!!1!) and dealing ability damage slaughters the dragon because it has no defense against ability damage. That same build against undead of its own level? Not nearly as effective.
bluemage55 02-20-07, 11:17 AM	CR is a measure of general power. Specialized undead hunting builds will of course fare better against undead, and be less effective against everything else. That just means that an ad-CR modifer is required when that build is fighting undead (lowering the CR of the undead to represent an easier challenge) or not (increasing the CR of the other foes to represent a tougher challenge). Of course, the CR system generally anticipates a party scenario, and as most parties are not composed of characters that are all specialized at the same task, this is usually unecessary. Please save yourself the time and effort of constructing builds to prove your point. We can discuss this without that much detail. Also, I dispute the notion that a prismatic dragon is defenseless against ability damage. With sky-high mental ability scores, no powerful dragon should fail to realize their own weaknesses and use their spell selection and/or massive wealth to compensate appropriately. Not to mention they still have the "squish the puny little spellcaster before he opens his mouth" solution.
rob_douglas 02-20-07, 02:49 PM	Again, posted strategies rely ultimately on the rule that 1 always fails or 20 always hits. And does not take into account any counters the dragon might have. 78 HD - hmm, can it afford deflect arrows, exceptional deflection, infinite deflection, reflect arrows? That will take care of the pesky wizard. Epic Spellcasting (are you really going to have 36th level caster ability and not take this?) - for wards against MDJ, reflect for rays. Contingencies - to go off before MDJ? Ring of Greater Counterspelling (MDJ). The ability to Counterspell. There are a couple of specific issues with the build that deal with rules irregularities that do highlight themselves at epic - Dual Actions were not an issue in 3.0 when everyone had Haste, but it is a huge advantage that should be nerfed in 3.5. Ray of Stupidity *is* stupid because it does ability damage - not something normally available for that level. It is a perfectly effective single spell strategy for all opponents: no one but a wizard can withstand 2 twinned, maximized ones in a round (one quickened). Ray of Enfeeblement, and Clumsiness, comparable spells don't do damage and this shouldn't either - they provide non-stacking penalties. It is just bad design. I understand what you are saying about what is possible. Dual vorpal swords could take down the dragon too. But that just calls for the DM to use the abilities of the dragon to keep it out of situations where that is what it has to deal with. It has plenty of resources - it could certainly start with an astral projection or simulacrum to find out what your strategy is - or even research you to find your preferred spells, and then just take a nice Permanent Emination (AMF) and shut down your spells completely. MDJ to take it down - it can put it back up. Using flyby attacks, you can't keep up with it. I agree that you get a lot more variety in how well CRs hold up at Epic, but if used properly to plan out 7 encounters a day for a party of 4, they will provide more than the right challenge - and the GW Prismatic will remain safe knowing if you get there, it will be your 7th encounter that day.... ROB PS I forgot - Ring of Permanent Mind Blank for the Dragon - unlikely to be affected by the MDJ, immunity to Ray of Stupidity....
Witch 02-20-07, 03:32 PM	PS I forgot - Ring of Permanent Mind Blank for the Dragon - unlikely to be affected by the MDJ, immunity to Ray of Stupidity.... Let's not do that - people might object to custom items (though a silly objection that would be). Let's instead take the Third Eye: Conceal item, which does exactly the same, but is actually printed in a book =)
Grandmaster_Kane 02-20-07, 03:38 PM	wow can we get back on topic?
Witch 02-20-07, 03:42 PM	Okay. ":clap: :love: :ayyyy!: :bow: :OMG! " :rimshot:
winters_night 02-20-07, 04:04 PM	there becomes a point when a character simply needs to stop obtaining levels, these listed NPCs while being hindered by all the multiclassing have more levels than most gods.. simply saying you can continue obtaining levels after some point becomes absurd and you'd have to assume they simply can not advance in power after a certain point..
Witch 02-20-07, 04:05 PM	I concur, really. I follow Dicefreaks in putting that cap at 50 Hit Dice for humanoids. Deities get to go a bit higher.
Grandmaster_Kane 02-20-07, 04:07 PM	the highest god avatar is bane with 65 levels but i dont consider the true avatars i think that the gods in reality have 3 times there listed levels
Witch 02-20-07, 04:08 PM	I see no need for that - the Gods do fine with their levels at about 60-70. SDA's increase their power vastly already.
Ryusage 02-20-07, 05:00 PM	why would anyone want to drool over a troll post?
Caros 02-20-07, 05:46 PM	Okay. Replace the ray spells with shivering touch out of frostburn. 3d6 dex damage. No metamagic required as on average it puts the dragon into a coma. (10.5 dex to the dragons' 10) Though to be safe we maximize it making that a 6th level spell. Hell, lets go out of our way to make this as simple as I can. Dungeonscape. The new base clas Factotum. 11th level ability is the ability to ignore SR for one round. Start of combat, Maximized shivering touch, Swift action teleport, sun school deliver the touch attack. I have now killed a great prismatic wyrm with a single class, a couple of metamagic feats and a tactical feat. Respectfully, you asked for a build that could beat a great prismatic at level 20. I'd like to point out that both posted builds do that, with ease in fact. This is of course assuming a neutral setting in which both combatants meet, neither aware of the other. Bluemage, the entire point of the posted builds is the dragon DOESN'T get to go 'puny mortal *squish.*' Both sides roll initiative and the mortal kills the dragon before the dragon gets to act. Hell, the prismatic dragon is supposed to be one of the most passive of dragons so it'd probably try and talk him down first anyways. And finally, keep in mind that this is all based off of a level 20 charachter build. A great prismatic is CR what again? 68? That means it is supposed to be an equal challenge for a party of 68th level characters, I can beat it, without much work at level 20 (I came up with the factotum build over lunch.) with one character. Give me 48 levels and I'd put money that the dragon couldn't even scratch my forehead. At epic CR simply does not work, it cannot balance out because no two epic parties are the same because PC's have diverged far too much in their abilities. This isn't to say that CR is useless. If nothing else it gives a comparitive gague as to how powerful a monster is supposed to be, but intelligent DMing is required. You don't put a mage vs an iron collosus in wide open plains and expect a fight. And for simplicities sake, the other builds were as follows. A shuriken fighter using master thrower and bloodstorm blade. Two wounding-marrowcrushing shuriken hitting on touch attacks for the dragon's con in one round. A shadowlord with a blink dog familiar, Ruby knight vindicator and nightsticks. It benign transpositions around 160 times, hitting 540 times with a dragonbane katana (it beats its damage reduction. Killing it by hitpoint damage before it acts. A diplomancer. It walks up and turns the dragon into its fanatic follower in the first round. I'd like to see a contingency that beats this one by the by. The above Factotum. Thats four. I can quite litteraly go all day if you still think it is impossible.
Witch 02-20-07, 05:48 PM	Respectfully, you asked for a build that could beat a great prismatic at level 20. I'd like to point out that both posted builds do that, with ease in fact. This is of course assuming a neutral setting in which both combatants meet, neither aware of the other. You ignored the Epic Spellcasting defences and the feat defences. A Diplomancer is a loophole. I'm not familiar enough with the other builds.
Caros 02-20-07, 05:57 PM	I ignored epic spellcasting because neither of the sample epic dragons took the feat, even though it would have been sensible to do so as soon as possible. Furthermore epic spells are DM permissable only, and thus not constant (Some DM's would allow mords immunity, some would not). On top of that, the dragon not only gets a limited amount, but because each spell costs the dragon xp to create the dragon would have a limited selection as well and have to pick what to buff and what not to. I ignored the deflection feats because the dragon's DEX score is ten and it thus does not qualify for deflect arrows. Nor did it matter after I suggested shivering touch which is a touch attack. The diplomancer is one of many, and I'd point out that the diplomancer is only an exploit if you are using the rules loopholes to get checks in the thousands. A diplomacy check of 100, easy to do non-epic would make the dragon fanatic. The problem with the diplomancer builds is that players generally use them once in combat. The prismatic however, "enjoy's visitors to their remote lairs, and rarely attack any creature unless provoked." Game set? PS. You don't recognize the other builds because they are off the top of my think tank's collective heads in the last 4 hours.
Witch 02-20-07, 05:59 PM	I ignored the deflection feats because the dragon's DEX score is ten and it thus does not qualify for deflect arrows. Nor did it matter after I suggested shivering touch which is a touch attack. It gets items, you know ;) A diplomacy check of 100, easy to do non-epic would make the dragon fanatic. No, diplomacy's mechanics are too flawed for such to be accepted as valid.
bluemage55 02-20-07, 05:59 PM	Okay. Replace the ray spells with shivering touch out of frostburn. 3d6 dex damage. No metamagic required as on average it puts the dragon into a coma. (10.5 dex to the dragons' 10) Though to be safe we maximize it making that a 6th level spell. Dungeonscape. The new base clas Factotum. 11th level ability is the ability to ignore SR for one round. Start of combat, Maximized shivering touch, Swift action teleport, sun school deliver the touch attack. And what do you do if the dragon expends some wealth to pump it's Dex (which it should be doing anyway)? How are you going to deal with it once it's running around with a +60 Dex buff? What if it has Exceptional Deflection? I have now killed a great prismatic wyrm with a single class, a couple of metamagic feats and a tactical feat No, you've beaten a baseline dragon that hasn't yet spent its wealth or optimized its spells and feats. And finally, keep in mind that this is all based off of a level 20 charachter build. A great prismatic is CR what again? 68? That means it is supposed to be an equal challenge for a party of 68th level characters, I can beat it, without much work at level 20 (I came up with the factotum build over lunch.) with one character. Give me 48 levels and I'd put money that the dragon couldn't even scratch my forehead. Give me the same dragon and I'll optimize it so that it is a challenge. Don't expect to break out a bunch of different books to optimize with and expect the same dragon. If the DM allows you to use sources in addition to the SRD, expect him to do the same. Mythals, anyone? At epic CR simply does not work, it cannot balance out because no two epic parties are the same because PC's have diverged far too much in their abilities. At epic, CR varies more. That is not to say that it does not work, only that it weakens. This is true prior to epic; there will always be more divergence between 20th level characters than between 1st level characters. The more sources you allow (widening the optimization field) the more divergence there will be. Yet many players use more than just the SRD, and they don't complain about CR failing. This isn't to say that CR is useless. If nothing else it gives a comparitive gague as to how powerful a monster is supposed to be, but intelligent DMing is required. You don't put a mage vs an iron collosus in wide open plains and expect a fight. Agreed. And for simplicities sake, the other builds were as follows. A shuriken fighter using master thrower and bloodstorm blade. Two wounding-marrowcrushing shuriken hitting on touch attacks for the dragon's con in one round. Exceptional Deflection and Infinite Deflection ignores that entire build. A shadowlord with a blink dog familiar, Ruby knight vindicator and nightsticks. It benign transpositions around 160 times, hitting 540 times with a dragonbane katana (it beats its damage reduction. Killing it by hitpoint damage before it acts. That demonstrates the problem with some components of the build, not the dragon. A diplomancer. It walks up and turns the dragon into its fanatic follower in the first round. I'd like to see a contingency that beats this one by the by. Diplomacy rules need a fix to be an opposed check (essentially a trained version of the standard opposed Cha check to get someone to do something). Everyone knows that skill is a problem waiting to be fixed. Thats four. I can quite litteraly go all day if you still think it is impossible. Keep going. You don't seem to know epic nearly as well as most of us on these boards do, so it's quite easy to refute a whole mess of builds with single sentences.
Witch 02-20-07, 06:00 PM	How are you going to deal with it once it's running around with a +60 Dex buff? I find such extreme buffs problematic, and I think they should be discouraged. As such, it's most likely not a good example. I'd be more amenable to simply items, or perhaps a +20 enhancement bonus rather than an extreme bonus of +60.
bluemage55 02-20-07, 06:07 PM	The diplomancer is one of many, and I'd point out that the diplomancer is only an exploit if you are using the rules loopholes to get checks in the thousands. A diplomacy check of 100, easy to do non-epic would make the dragon fanatic. The problem with the diplomancer builds is that players generally use them once in combat. The prismatic however, "enjoy's visitors to their remote lairs, and rarely attack any creature unless provoked." Game set? Diplomacy is still an exploit even if you don't get checks in the thousands. 100 is clearly enough to turn any opponent into a fanatic follower, so why would you need any higher? Try again. Try harder.
Uberman 02-20-07, 06:16 PM	I don't know WHERE to start... First off, Dragons are NOT PC's, heck they're not even NPCs.. Dragons are a monster encounter.. Sure, they're the smartest of monsters, but they do not have equipment.. they have RANDOMLY DETERMINED treasure and the intelligence to use what they may have, sure... so roll up the random items using the chart, and if you want to have the dragon start flinging it's millions of coins at us with attack rolls, go ahead. Seriously though... You guys talk to me about 'hearsay' and then anything that comes up that shuts you down you just say "Broken so it can't be considered' or 'diplomacy's mechanics are too flawed for such to be accepted as valid'. THAT'S AN OPINION! And it's obviously not the majority opinion b/c diplomacy has remained unchanged since the first printing of the 3.0 PHB... Epic spells.. IF we're using epic spells, then CR REALLY goes out the window... a low-20's epic mage with Epic Spellcasting can create a spell that does.. well, damn near anything... It's way too easy to pump your Skill checks. You keep trying to shut things down with single sentences in an attempt to prove that you're so right there's no contest, but you're not even SAYING anything more than "you're wrong cuz i disagree with you"
Caros 02-20-07, 06:18 PM	And what do you do if the dragon expends some wealth to pump it's Dex (which it should be doing anyway)? How are you going to deal with it once it's running around with a +60 Dex buff? What if it has Exceptional Deflection? Well exceptional Deflection doesn't make a whit of difference when I'm using a melee touch atttack to deliver a spell. If its dex increases by even 10 points then I have to be a little more careful with how I build the character to make sure I can hit its touch AC. Keep in mind that the Factotum build isn't even on paper. If I want I'm pretty sure I could hit touch ac 58 and still kill the thing =/ No, you've beaten a baseline dragon that hasn't yet spent its wealth or optimized its spells and feats.[quote] You didn't ask us to, you said beat a prismatic dragon. The shadowlord beats it without any real contestation other than "Thats broken!" The shivering touch beats it along the same lines [quote]Give me the same dragon and I'll optimize it so that it is a challenge. Don't expect to break out a bunch of different books to optimize with and expect the same dragon. If the DM allows you to use sources in addition to the SRD, expect him to do the same. Mythals, anyone? Really? Fair enough If you'd like I've got three days off to kill. Build the dragon, using the nastiest, most optimized min/maxed TPK your party tricks and We'll beat it in short order at level 50 (The humanoid 'max') I'm serious. I picked 50 because by CR it should be impossible for me to do so =) It gets items, you know No. No it doesn't. ^_^; Though in the interest of fairness, bluemage, you can use full PC wealth for level 68. Or NPC wealth, I'm not sure which one is higher. PS. Your choice over whether we use epic spells or not. I'd personally say no simply because then it goes down to which of us twists the system more. But if you want to I'm game. Its your challenge after all.
Witch 02-20-07, 06:20 PM	they have RANDOMLY DETERMINED treasure They have treasure that makes sense for them. They're not retarded. They're far more intelligent than most spellcasters. You guys talk to me about 'hearsay' and then anything that comes up that shuts you down you just say "Broken so it can't be considered' or 'diplomacy's mechanics are too flawed for such to be accepted as valid'. On these boards, we don't work with things that are obviously broken. We work with things that preserve the relative balance of the game. Epic spells.. IF we're using epic spells, then CR REALLY goes out the window... a low-20's epic mage with Epic Spellcasting can create a spell that does.. well, damn near anything... It's way too easy to pump your Skill checks. Skill checks are irrelevant for Epic Spellcasting - mitigation is. And most people on this boards agree that there should be some sort of limit on mitigation, though opinions vary on the degree and the method.
bluemage55 02-20-07, 06:23 PM	First off, Dragons are NOT PC's, heck they're not even NPCs.. Dragons are a monster encounter.. Sure, they're the smartest of monsters, but they do not have equipment.. they have RANDOMLY DETERMINED treasure and the intelligence to use what they may have, sure... so roll up the random items using the chart, and if you want to have the dragon start flinging it's millions of coins at us with attack rolls, go ahead. Dragons are NPCs. They are intelligent adversaries and can be customized. Have you seen all of the different dragons in Draconomicon? No two dragons are alike. You guys talk to me about 'hearsay' and then anything that comes up that shuts you down you just say "Broken so it can't be considered' or 'diplomacy's mechanics are too flawed for such to be accepted as valid'. THAT'S AN OPINION! And it's obviously not the majority opinion b/c diplomacy has remained unchanged since the first printing of the 3.0 PHB... Diplomacy is broken. It's not an opinion. A 1st level character using diplomacy can defeat anything in the game. That's clearly broken. Epic spells.. IF we're using epic spells, then CR REALLY goes out the window... a low-20's epic mage with Epic Spellcasting can create a spell that does.. well, damn near anything... It's way too easy to pump your Skill checks. Don't talk about things you know nothing about. It's embarassing. Epic spells are a default part of the game. They are key story devices in many settings, and there are monsters and characters assumed to have them. Epic spells are not a variant rule. Pumping your skill checks does not obviate the massive gold and xp cost of a high-DC epic spell. You keep trying to shut things down with single sentences in an attempt to prove that you're so right there's no contest, but you're not even SAYING anything more than "you're wrong cuz i disagree with you" As long as foolish arguments are made, I will continue to shut them down. If a 5-year-old tells you that the earth is flat, it usually doesn't merit the need to say anything beyond "No, it's round."
bluemage55 02-20-07, 06:36 PM	You didn't ask us to, you said beat a prismatic dragon. The shadowlord beats it without any real contestation other than "Thats broken!" I asked you to beat it without using rules loopholes. I have yet to see you do so. The shivering touch beats it along the same lines. Unless it's Dex is higher, which it will be. Or unless I dig through splatbooks to find immunity to ability damage. The Really? Fair enough If you'd like I've got three days off to kill. Build the dragon, using the nastiest, most optimized min/maxed TPK your party tricks and We'll beat it in short order at level 50 (The humanoid 'max') I'm serious. I picked 50 because by CR it should be impossible for me to do so =) The prismatic dragon presented in the SRD is CR 48. Go ahead and use a CR 36 party, and I'll throw together a build in a few hours that can beat it without trying. So if you would like to do this, use SRD materials to put together an ECL 36 party of 4, following all rules in the SRD revision thread I have on these boards. I will use the old prismatic wyrm in the SRD, customizing its wealth and build (but without changing the HD/levels). No. No it doesn't. ^_^; Though in the interest of fairness, bluemage, you can use full PC wealth for level 68. Or NPC wealth, I'm not sure which one is higher. Intelligent adversaries can always customize their builds and wealth. Read the Draconomicon and look at all the different builds therein. PS. Your choice over whether we use epic spells or not. I'd personally say no simply because then it goes down to which of us twists the system more. But if you want to I'm game. Its your challenge after all. Don't complain about "twisting the system" when you have been presenting Diplomancer builds. Epic spellcasting is part of the game, so they will be included. Follow all rules listed in my revision thread. You may only use items that could be created by an ECL 36 caster, and I may only use items available to an ECL 48 caster. My revision thread is located here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=702299
Uberman 02-20-07, 06:44 PM	Dragons are NPCs. They are intelligent adversaries and can be customized. Have you seen all of the different dragons in Draconomicon? No two dragons are alike. No two Imps/Orcs/Kobolds/Lichs/etc/etc/etc are alike either, I don't see anybody arguing their case... And yes I have seen all the dragons in the Draconomicon, it's actually one of my favourite books.. I love dragons! Speaking of the Draconomicon, i'ld like to point out that I specifically checked (just now) over 2 dozen of those sample dragons, and only one of them (The Old Red Dragon, "Sventsorggviresh") had listed Possessions.. 2 gloves of storing, neclace of adaptation, ring of swimming, wand of chaos hammer, wand of fire shield. Yeah.. Diplomacy is broken. It's not an opinion. A 1st level character using diplomacy can defeat anything in the game. That's clearly broken. That's clearly an opinion.. From Webster: OPINION: 1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b : APPROVAL, ESTEEM 2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b : a generally held view FACT: 1 : a thing done: as a obsolete : FEAT b : CRIME <accessory after the fact> c archaic : ACTION 2 archaic : PERFORMANCE, DOING 3 : the quality of being actual : ACTUALITY <a question of fact hinges on evidence> 4 a : something that has actual existence <space exploration is now a fact> b : an actual occurrence <prove the fact of damage> Don't talk about things you know nothing about. It's embarassing. Could we possibly do this without resorting to petty name calling and insults? Explain your opinion.. WHY do you think I know nothing about it and why does this embarass you? Epic spells are a default part of the game. They are key story devices in many settings, and there are monsters and characters assumed to have them. Epic spells are not a variant rule. Pumping your skill checks does not obviate the massive gold and xp cost of a high-DC epic spell. As long as foolish arguments are made, I will continue to shut them down. If a 5-year-old tells you that the earth is flat, it usually doesn't merit the need to say anything beyond "No, it's round." First off, I'm not 5.. second off, I ask again.. are there any people on your side of the discussion who're willing to go about this with a modicum of civility? You still have yet to prove anything foolish, you just spend your time attempting to put me down to make yourself look smart... It's getting annoying and i'ld rather this not devolve into a flame-war. this whole CR thing SERIOUSLY needs to be adressed..
Uberman 02-20-07, 06:45 PM	Nevermind
Witch 02-20-07, 06:48 PM	"His" rules are errata that are not only his, but pointed out and suggested by the epic community. As I noted earlier, not everyone here agrees about how he solves the issues, but pretty much everyone sees that the issues must be addressed. And regarding diplomacy: I'd call its brokenness a fact.
Caros 02-20-07, 07:22 PM	Okay, a couple of quick things, then I'm going to go rent video games etc. Firstly. I suggest that we both build our respective characters and then get a third party DM or some such. As I noted earlier, you can beat anything if you know what you are fighting. We'll know you're a dragon, you'll know we're for PC's. We know the books and thats that. Fair? =) Secondly, leadership? I'd like to use it for a cohort (it doesn't get gear so *shrug*) Your choice, we're playing entirely by your rules here. GP, Do you want full PC gold? Full NPC gold? Triple standard treasure gold? Triple PC gold? Since we're using Epic spells, are there any limitations other than your Errata? Are we starting with bonus XP for creation? Are we allowed to use the rod? Anyways, I'll be back in an hour. We're halfway done our builds, next its paper =)
Caros 02-20-07, 07:32 PM	Oh, and before I forget... Epic contingencies. Are we putting any limit besides money on these? While I acknowledge they are part of the system, the fight will come down to which of us has more/more inventive contingencies. Once again, its your dance =)
bluemage55 02-20-07, 08:26 PM	Firstly. I suggest that we both build our respective characters and then get a third party DM or some such. As I noted earlier, you can beat anything if you know what you are fighting. We'll know you're a dragon, you'll know we're for PC's. We know the books and thats that. Fair? =) Sounds fair to me. Secondly, leadership? I'd like to use it for a cohort (it doesn't get gear so *shrug*) Your choice, we're playing entirely by your rules here. If you want. It's extra work, but more of the burden falls on you than me (since you're building an entire party). GP, Do you want full PC gold? Full NPC gold? Triple standard treasure gold? Triple PC gold? As PCs, your party use standard PC gold. As a dragon, I will be using an amount equal to the horde the dragon has been statted out with. Since we're using Epic spells, are there any limitations other than your Errata? Are we starting with bonus XP for creation? Are we allowed to use the rod? Start halfway to the next level.
bluemage55 02-20-07, 08:29 PM	Oh, and before I forget... Epic contingencies. Are we putting any limit besides money on these? While I acknowledge they are part of the system, the fight will come down to which of us has more/more inventive contingencies. Once again, its your dance =) There is already a limit. If you have not noticed, a contingency uses up an epic spell slot until it is expended. Thus you will be limited to 3 epic spell slots. The thought has occured to me that since you aren't that familiar with epic spellcasting, we can dispense with it entirely so we don't have to spend a large amount of time arguing over epic spells. But, it's up to you.
SokenzanMarauder 02-20-07, 08:37 PM	*tear* Bluemage55 beat me to the punch... -Gene
Uberman 02-20-07, 08:45 PM	So the dragon has 3.5 Million GP, a staff of the cosmos, and a ring of regeneration?
Uberman 02-20-07, 08:46 PM	*tear* Bluemage55 beat me to the punch... -Gene Wait your turn. We'll get to you soon enough. :)
Caros 02-20-07, 09:01 PM	Okay. Thats fair enough, sorry about not noting the contingency thing but my group tends to not play with epic spells (They don't like them and I'm nice enough to avoid them most nights.) That said I'm happy to get the chance to use them. We're pretty much ready, I'll be posting my build sometime this morning/tomorow morning. It is simple in my head, but putting that much type to paper is annoying at times, specifically when I want to be absolutely sure that there are no points of contestation when we are done. Enjoy!
bluemage55 02-20-07, 09:20 PM	So the dragon has 3.5 Million GP, a staff of the cosmos, and a ring of regeneration? The prismatic dragon gets double standard CR 48 treasure (2,772,000 gp), 15,563 gp, the staff, and the ring. I can trade off the equipment at my discretion.
SokenzanMarauder 02-20-07, 11:38 PM	Wait your turn. We'll get to you soon enough. :) I feel wanted again. :D -Gene
Caros 02-21-07, 05:55 AM	Fair enough, though the suggestion of triple standard was only included because most 3.5 dragons have triple standard, we just assumed the dragon was not updated. Should be ready today, got a bit sidetracked by lack of sleep ^_^;
bluemage55 02-21-07, 01:17 PM	Triple standard it is then. Oh, and are you planning on using leadership?
Uberman 02-21-07, 03:39 PM	Wanted you are, SokenzanMarauder... BTW, how do you shorten that name?
SokenzanMarauder 02-21-07, 05:19 PM	Wanted you are, SokenzanMarauder... BTW, how do you shorten that name? Just call me Gene, or SM if you want. Up to you. :) Also, if you guys need someone to arbitrate this conflict between you, I suppose I could DM it if nobody else wants to. I don't have tons of Epic experience but I figure I've been DMing for 8 years so that's got to count for something. :D -Gene
Witch 02-21-07, 05:24 PM	I'll be glad to DM as well - and I have less than a year's worth of DMing experience, and not much more of player's experience. But I know the rules fairly well.
SokenzanMarauder 02-21-07, 06:00 PM	I'll be glad to DM as well - and I have less than a year's worth of DMing experience, and not much more of player's experience. But I know the rules fairly well. Take Witch. He definitely knows the Epic rules better than I do and has a good eye for balance. -Gene
HappyPenguinOnAStick 02-21-07, 07:41 PM	Righio, Since Witch gets to DM it ill just stand aside dressed like a 13 year old Cheerleader Going; "GO BLUEMAGE I LOVE U!11!".
Caros 02-21-07, 10:16 PM	Well I considered using leadership as a for amusement value thing, but I guess it'll be left out for simplicity. Witch, if you'd like to DM that'd be just perfect. Mind Sending me and Bluemage a PM so we can e-mail you the characters? I'd have been faster on it (Was planning on having it ready by now, but RL bills called). And a last point for bluemage, Going by the dragons ELH description, can we assume that the two sides start within talking distance of one another (IE, on the same plane, either in the dragons' lair or in an environment of your chosing?)
rob_douglas 02-22-07, 12:10 AM	Why not throw the coming battle onto a new thread - since you all may have lost an audience a page or 2 ago who might be interested. The original was thoroughly hijacked. (including by me! ;) ) Regarding Diplomacy - you realize of course that Fanatic state is a non-magical mind-affecting effect, and is therefore overcome by Mind Blank again. And you do take a -20 to use it rushed in 1 round instead of over a minute. And yes - it is still broken. Enjoy. ROB
Archangel_Tyrael 02-22-07, 12:59 AM	Has this guy never heard of a little spell called "ALARM"? It seems he can just run up and touch the dragon like he won't even know he's there. The example old prismatic dragon has a spot check and a listen check of +80. He's gonna know you're there. And who trains their whole life just to kill a prismatic dragon? THAT'S dedication.
Witch 02-22-07, 03:04 AM	Witch, if you'd like to DM that'd be just perfect. Mind Sending me and Bluemage a PM so we can e-mail you the characters? I'd have been faster on it (Was planning on having it ready by now, but RL bills called). I'll send both of you a PM when I get back home from university, this evening. But at the moment, I think that, rather than having you two start within talking distance, you start in a town instead, and Bluemage starts in his lair. Bluemage details the lair. Anything that is not natural for a cave system is to be paid out of his wealth. You get to use divination before you approach, if you wish. This allows for a more realistic setting, in which the Dragon has already defended its lair as it would normally, and you have researched it, as you would normally. Dragons are not random encounters.
bluemage55 02-22-07, 03:43 AM	And a last point for bluemage, Going by the dragons ELH description, can we assume that the two sides start within talking distance of one another (IE, on the same plane, either in the dragons' lair or in an environment of your chosing?) I wasn't aware that this was an actual duel, but rather an intellectual exercise. Simply post a party and the forum can collectively look at the stats and evaluate how combat would result in a variety of situations.
Witch 02-22-07, 10:23 AM	A duel ánd a collective look will prove more though ;)
Caros 02-22-07, 10:40 AM	Just heading off to bed. Rough night =.=; That said, my only thought regarding the 'start in town' idea is that it seems rather pointless. The dragon isn't likely to attempt to kill us flat out before we declare intentions, and as previously stated they tend to talk to be somewhat pacifistic. I suppose it allows him to mislead via illusions and whatnot, but that just leads to a somewhat confusing and longwinded combat. *Shrugs* I really couldn't care one way or the other, I've just had experience on en world that such combats are hell to run via message boards =)
Uberman 02-23-07, 06:21 PM	OK, the new thread's up with a few comments.. "Prismatic Dragon vs lower level party?"
Witch 02-23-07, 06:47 PM	Is this going to happen as a fight or a mere theoretical experiment? I'd like to have some confirmation.
Chaotis 02-24-07, 12:16 AM	I got to page 3 before I had to say this: 1) There was no question to answer, so this entire thread is utterly pointless, no offense to the poster. 2) The builds always seem to assume the the character knows that it's being optimized. Honestly, why would it know exactly what, how, and when to use what item/spell? Something I'd like cleared up for me. 3) I sense trolls, flamers, and overthinking. That's normally a bad sign, partly because trolls have a weakness to fire :P. So, there you have it, it's a pointless thread escalating with a flame war, and the burning husks of trolls don't smell good either. Someone seriously just needs to lock this.
bluemage55 02-24-07, 01:08 AM	Is this going to happen as a fight or a mere theoretical experiment? I'd like to have some confirmation. Sounds like they want a fight.
Witch 02-24-07, 07:13 AM	Bluemage, you know where you can reach me for PMs - at this place, my inbox is generally full or close to it. Caros, I'll get you my e-mail adress. We'll drop the lair-town thing, as both of you think it's not necessary.
DragonLich 02-25-07, 07:20 PM	It would be really cool, and worth drooling over if you were to have actually achieved these levels without making the characters at level 65 to begin with. Because it would be well worth the fight then instead of in this case, a one shot were you spent more time making the character then playing.
Duke_of_Shards 02-27-07, 08:54 PM	Don't drool, but my character is a: Fighter 20/Cleric 20/Rogue 20/Mage 20/Sorceror 20/Monk 20/Barbarian 20/Ranger 20/Paladin 20/Bard 20/Bad Optimizer 10
NoldorForce 02-27-07, 10:11 PM	Don't drool, but my character is a: Fighter 20/Cleric 20/Rogue 20/Mage 20/Sorceror 20/Monk 20/Barbarian 20/Ranger 20/Paladin 20/Bard 20/Bad Optimizer 10That's up there with saying things like "OMG!!11!!!11!1OneElevenCos(0)!!!" in terms of sarcasm.
AffableDoomwalker 02-28-07, 04:00 AM	That's up there with saying things like "OMG!!11!!!11!1OneElevenCos(0)!!!" in terms of sarcasm. I enjoy pie. You all enjoy pie, regardless of preference, you still enjoy pie, it is universal law. Commence drooling.
Duke_of_Shards 02-28-07, 08:08 AM	I enjoy pie. You all enjoy pie, regardless of preference, you still enjoy pie, it is universal law. Commence drooling. Pie is a nice dessert, but chicken is better. :chicken:
SokenzanMarauder 02-28-07, 04:03 PM	Pie is a nice dessert, but chicken is better. :chicken: I agree. I'd kill for chicken, but I'd only maim for pie. -Gene
Duke_of_Shards 02-28-07, 08:51 PM	I agree. I'd kill for chicken, but I'd only maim for pie. -Gene Eating apples is just as bad as killing. You are killing poor defenseless plants. At least the chickens can fight back.
Rickiel 03-01-07, 12:10 PM	Is it our fault that delicious plants and their fruit are in possession of poor defenses? Possibly. But I have a perfectly logical explanation of why it is so right to kill an apple, brutally. I like eating apples :D
s4ndm4n 03-01-07, 01:31 PM	Me and 11 friends have decided that we are going to do 1 last campaign. A campaign so incredibly dangerous that the odds of survival for pretty much anyone is about 0 We are in the employ of the Demilich Grunoose Necromancer 30/ Horned harbinger 10/ Cleric of velshroon 30/ Archmage 5/ Arcane Devotee 5 And we must Dethrone the king of heroes. He has reached the peak of human perfection and rules the entire world behind the scenes (just under dieties). He has a powerful posses (much like gareth but uber strong) that is made up of his sons and 1 daughter Here they are Bo Dragovern (Ruler of the plains) Ranger 25/ Scout 20/ Highland stalker 10/ Wild plains outrider 3/ Order of the bow initiate 10/ Master thrower 5 Dormeck Dragovern (Ruler of the mountains & tundra) Barbarian 27/ Fighter 20/ Weapon master 10/ Bear warrior 10/ Frenzied berserker 10 The Tree Gaurdain (Ruler of the forest) Driud 30/ Beastmaster 10/ Nature's warrior 10/ wolflord 10/ Master of many forms 10/ Forest master 10 The Magister (Ruler of the heartlands and Master of the Great tower) Sorecerer 30/ Envocker 30/ Arcane devotee 5/ Archmage5/ Stormlord 10 Shandra Dragonvern (Ruler of the shadowlands) Rogue 30/ Ninja 20/ Ghost faced killer 10/ Assassin 20/ Shadowdancer 10 and finally Lord Taggeth Dragovern (Ruler of rulers) Paladin 30/ Cleric of Kelevmor 20/ Doom guide 10/ Hunter of the dead 10/ Kensai 10/ knight of the Chalice 10/ Shadowbane Inquisitor 10 Besides the dragoverns we have to worry about The finder Divanator 30/ Justiscar 10/ Windwalker 10/ Bloodhound 10/ Fighter 10 who will rat us out to the dragovern agents at the drop of a silver Well go ahead and drool now also Taggeth has a dive rank of 0 My party only has a 65 average level so we are systematically destroying his entire army until we get enough levels to take on the big bad boss ......................so?............... ......... you wanna ask something?talk over something? u know i can add +80 HD to Cthulhu and make him rise from Rly'eh and start the end times ,advance my players to 60lvl+ and then make Cthulhu attack them alongside with all the Great old ones from CoC, I'll even make Lovecraft shake his bones from excitement,but you dont have to drool, guys.I'll drool for you a bit and then I'll come down to earth.
Psionx 03-02-07, 12:48 PM	But rap music is just so cool... Anyway, just pull something off the CO boards or theoretical optomization etc. The bestow power fission, Synchronicity Shuffle, Ubercharger, Hivemind, w/e
Duke_of_Shards 03-04-07, 01:36 PM	......................so?............... ......... you wanna ask something?talk over something? u know i can add +80 HD to Cthulhu and make him rise from Rly'eh and start the end times ,advance my players to 60lvl+ and then make Cthulhu attack them alongside with all the Great old ones from CoC, I'll even make Lovecraft shake his bones from excitement,but you dont have to drool, guys.I'll drool for you a bit and then I'll come down to earth. Lovecraft would probably be cheesed off at you for making something like that...
SilverEyes 03-05-07, 09:19 PM	omg bbq i cant belived u soe stupid, epic stuff is teh r0z0xs, everything si balanced from cr like -5!11!!! 2 cr 500; i 1nce made tihs campign where it was awesum you fot the universe itself!!!!!one11eleven cos(0) [<-- I stole this joke, I thought it was hilarious] 111111 all teh players were like level N + 008 where N was was level 111 (I like all the ones) it was such good ROLE-playing and wuz like the hrdest thing evar!!!!!!11111111 we played every day for six yearz to get that awesome Seriously though, it's hard to balance. Can anyone point me to a source (other than the ELH, because my word, what a terribly balanced, (is it even PROOFREAD??) book) that reasonably extends the existing rules (say to levels 1-30, maybe 35) without getting just laughably ridiculous? Epic is definitely not standard in my campaign. My take on it is to extend the existing game by about 10 or so levels, max. 35 I would say, with new abilities that are awesome, but only progress relatively linearly from level 20 to at least keep some semblance of a playable game. (I realize that not many people go for this too, but {RANT} I like limiting the dieties and countless extraplanar creatures and all the infinities of time, and the planes, and the gods, and magic, blah blah blah [...]; so that it's just not so blatantly ridiculous..., CR 70 creatures and gods can do anything and everything, etc. etc. etc.) [...]
goblinbonez 03-15-07, 01:55 AM	Don't drool, but my character is a: Fighter 20/Cleric 20/Rogue 20/Mage 20/Sorceror 20/Monk 20/Barbarian 20/Ranger 20/Paladin 20/Bard 20/Bad Optimizer 10 LOL!!!! Duke_of_Shards is my hero!
angryman 03-15-07, 04:37 AM	......................so?............... ......... you wanna ask something?talk over something? u know i can add +80 HD to Cthulhu and make him rise from Rly'eh and start the end times ,advance my players to 60lvl+ and then make Cthulhu attack them alongside with all the Great old ones from CoC, I'll even make Lovecraft shake his bones from excitement,but you dont have to drool, guys.I'll drool for you a bit and then I'll come down to earth. I mean this in the politest and least offensive way possible. You are an idiot.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-17-07, 10:17 AM	Don't know about 2E but in the current edition you could drop a planet on someone and they still only take 20d6 damage.. ;) Damage from height caps at 20d6. Damage from weight does not. Assuming the planet masses as much as the Earth, it'd deal about 65,854,282,300,000,000,000,000d6 damage.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-17-07, 10:20 AM	That's up there with saying things like "OMG!!11!!!11!1OneElevenCos(0)!!!" in terms of sarcasm. Cos(0). Nice. I have got to remember that one.
Grandmaster_Kane 03-17-07, 05:24 PM	OMG ive created a monster look at what my thread has become.... Anyway i changed up some off the levels on the character on my post so stop by if you get a chance
Azar_of_Faerun 03-18-07, 12:16 AM	No, you created a dungeon. The monsters just showed up for a block party