Draconic Ascendant and the Quasi-diety Equation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Draconic Ascendant and the Quasi-diety Equation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Drake_the_Windseeker
06-28-07, 06:02 PM Due to the flavor text in the prestige class' ability Immortality, I am led to believe that the Dragon Ascendant becomes a quasi-diety. While statting most dieties, one comes across the text that something depends on Outsider hit dice. Now, for the Draconic Ascendant, would you think that they could use their Dragon hit dice instead of Outsider hit dice in order to calculate what sort of diety abilities it recieves?
Taeldrin Laesrash
06-28-07, 07:14 PM Yes. However, divinity probably makes you an outsider in the first place.
Drake_the_Windseeker
06-28-07, 07:58 PM Yes. However, divinity probably makes you an outsider in the first place.

And why would this be? I'm not arguing mechanics, simply asking why one with the power of a Dragon would change to an Outsider on account of being immortal. When I think of an Outsider, I think of an extraplanar being. But would the power of a god really be extraplanar in nature?
Taeldrin Laesrash
06-28-07, 08:28 PM And why would this be? I'm not arguing mechanics, simply asking why one with the power of a Dragon would change to an Outsider on account of being immortal. When I think of an Outsider, I think of an extraplanar being. But would the power of a god really be extraplanar in nature?

By definition. Gods are belief made substance, like the planes they reside on. Even ascended deities have some of this.
Drake_the_Windseeker
06-28-07, 08:43 PM By definition. Gods are belief made substance, like the planes they reside on. Even ascended deities have some of this.

I'm not sure about that. I'm just talking about my beliefs, personally. Some would speak of a god as being able to will existence as they see fit, which could give credibility to the statement you just made. But what if they simply had access to an element or a power that mortals do not possess? Perhaps it is not belief, but then, that could be because we do not have the word to describe it.
Kihon
06-28-07, 11:07 PM Drake the Immortal's Handbook takes a stance near what I believe you are stating. If you have not looked at that book, you may want to. On the other side of the argument the Canon D&D material does state that to be a 'true power' you are an outsider. I personally always wondered about the 'hero deities', 'quasi powers', 'cosmic forces', and perhaps even the least of the true demi-gods. Beyond that there is no doubt, you have become an outsider and represent some aspect of your domains. So I would say that a bit depends on your DM and their stance on what your power level is going to be, and how they are going to use it in play.
GoldGreatWyrm
06-28-07, 11:18 PM I don't quite remember, but does Tiamat and Bahamut have dragon or outsider Hit Dice. That could be the answer to the question
Taeldrin Laesrash
06-28-07, 11:19 PM I'm not sure about that. I'm just talking about my beliefs, personally. Some would speak of a god as being able to will existence as they see fit, which could give credibility to the statement you just made. But what if they simply had access to an element or a power that mortals do not possess? Perhaps it is not belief, but then, that could be because we do not have the word to describe it.

It is difficult to describe. Most actual gods function on both innate divine power and mortal belief; without the latter, they can die and fade away. On the other hand, some gods don't need worshippers (Like Boccob, who is powered by magic) and quasi-deities (Hero-deities) only occasionlly have worshippers and clerics.

A Dragon Ascendent would probably be working off the innate divinity. It's certainly not material and probably not elemental, so the Outer Planes (And thus, the Outsider type) seem to fit best for describing divinities.
rob_douglas
06-29-07, 12:14 AM A Dragon Ascendent stays a Dragon. Bahamut and Tiamat both are Dragons, not Outsiders. Undead can also be the type of a god - see Vecna. The DA happens to become Divine Rank 0. It just so happens that all the abilities granted by the PrC are the same ones you get from the template.

I am not sure what you mean about powers being tied to outsider Hit Dice. They don't get any more powers beyond the ones mentioned in the PrC. They certainly don't gain SDAs. If you want to make up rules for promoting them up the Divine ladder, that is a different issue. Whether they need worshippers or not, it is all up to the DM and not covered in the rules.

ROB
Taeldrin Laesrash
06-29-07, 09:33 AM I see now, DvRs don't actually change one's type to Outsider. That's what I do, I guess.

Rob Douglas is right, there are no Dragon Ascendent powers based on Hit Dice. In fact, the divinity template never specifically mentions Outsider HD as powering its abilities, it's just DvR or unspecified HD.
Drake_the_Windseeker
06-29-07, 10:27 AM Interesting debate I seem to have started here. My work is finished.

Joking aside, when I was referring to certain abilities being tied to abilities, it was usually for diefic beings of Divine Rank 1 or more, and there are currently no official WotC rules about how one would ascend from Divine Rank 0 to 1. Someone should make an Ascender's Handbook. They can even use that name, if they want. I think it sounds good. That could be because I thought of it, though...
rob_douglas
06-29-07, 10:50 AM That is basically what Upper Krust is doing - it is called the Ascension: The Immortals Handbook.

ROB
Drake_the_Windseeker
06-30-07, 03:00 PM That is basically what Upper Krust is doing - it is called the Ascension: The Immortals Handbook.

ROB

Thanks for the tip.
rob_douglas
07-01-07, 01:15 AM I also just noticed an error in the Draconomicon. Clearly the DA is suposed to get all the DvR 0 abilities, but it is still getting 3.0 version of Fire Resistance. This was reduced from 20+DvR to 5+DvR.

Its DR seems high too, but that seems to be on purpose as being better than DvR0. It is 3.5 compliant after all. SR should be 32, but is listed as 33.

ROB
Starmage21
07-01-07, 06:07 PM I see now, DvRs don't actually change one's type to Outsider. That's what I do, I guess.

Rob Douglas is right, there are no Dragon Ascendent powers based on Hit Dice. In fact, the divinity template never specifically mentions Outsider HD as powering its abilities, it's just DvR or unspecified HD.

Rather, it should be stated that upon gaining DvR that your type changes to outsider unless your current type is better.

Both the Dragon and Undead types are pretty awesome to have. Its an SDA by itself to gain the undead qualities without actually being undead(which I think Nerull has that particular SDA). All the others would most likely become outsiders upon ascention IMO.
Taeldrin Laesrash
07-02-07, 02:29 PM Rather, it should be stated that upon gaining DvR that your type changes to outsider unless your current type is better.

Both the Dragon and Undead types are pretty awesome to have. Its an SDA by itself to gain the undead qualities without actually being undead(which I think Nerull has that particular SDA). All the others would most likely become outsiders upon ascention IMO.

Savage Species had a list of "type tiers", where certain types on a base creature were replaced by higher-level tiers. In this case, Undead, Outsider, and Construct are all the final types a creature can have, it can't change after becoming one of those. All gods are outsiders, except for gods like Vecna, who were undead before ascension.
rob_douglas
07-02-07, 11:15 PM And Bahamut who stays Dragon. It was also proposed the Elemental gods would stay Elemental as well. But I agree, anything else - humanoid, monstrous humanoid, magical beast, etc. should become Outsider.

ROB
Starmage21
07-03-07, 11:42 AM Savage Species had a list of "type tiers", where certain types on a base creature were replaced by higher-level tiers. In this case, Undead, Outsider, and Construct are all the final types a creature can have, it can't change after becoming one of those. All gods are outsiders, except for gods like Vecna, who were undead before ascension.

That works, but the dragon type should be considered one of the end-types for this particular equation. It has pretty much everything outsider has to offer, with some things that are alot better (D12 hit die for instance).
Taeldrin Laesrash
07-03-07, 12:52 PM It wasn't just about power, it was mostly flavor. If you're a Dracolich, are you more defined by your dragon-ness or your unliving-ness? SS assumes the latter. If you're a dragon made out of gears and steel parts, are you more defined by your dragon-ness or construct-ness? Again, the latter. If you're a Planar Dragon, well...Actually, they're dragons, despite being representatives of their plane. Stupid system...
Drake_the_Windseeker
07-04-07, 03:47 PM It wasn't just about power, it was mostly flavor. If you're a Dracolich, are you more defined by your dragon-ness or your unliving-ness? SS assumes the latter. If you're a dragon made out of gears and steel parts, are you more defined by your dragon-ness or construct-ness? Again, the latter. If you're a Planar Dragon, well...Actually, they're dragons, despite being representatives of their plane. Stupid system...

Well, actually the system makes sense, from a Neutral point of view, which how I think DMs need to look at D&D's mechanical system. Some people are biased towards certain racial types or alignments (for example, I'm quite certain that some of the administrator's on DiceFreaks are strongly biased on the Lawful-Evil side of things). In my opinion, one's type does not necessarily change due to another resource of power being attained. A being's type should define what they are at the most basic level. Just because a Dragon becomes a God does not make it any less a Dragon. Savage Species indicates on their Type Pyramid section the following: "Once a creature stops being a native of the Material Plane, it becomes an Outsider and stays one." But a Dragon can be born and raised in the Prime Material and become a quasi-diety while still residing on the Prime Material, so how would you justify it becoming an Outsider?
NinjaPenguin
07-05-07, 08:07 PM Personally, I don't see why becoming a Deity would change your type at all? I mean, most characters that would ascend are of the Humanoid type and have no racial hit dice, so its only a matter of a few special abilities and targeting restrictions. Saying that, I haven't seen anything indicating that a Deity becomes an Outsider upon ascending, and especially the Dragon Ascendant itself. *shrugs* Still, pretty interesting
Taeldrin Laesrash
07-06-07, 01:30 PM In my opinion, one's type does not necessarily change due to another resource of power being attained. A being's type should define what they are at the most basic level. Just because a Dragon becomes a God does not make it any less a Dragon.

You have a point-I see the pyramid as working for everything except ascended deities. Maybe we should use a (Deity) subtype instead of changing basic type?
NinjaPenguin
07-06-07, 05:34 PM *gigglefits* Yes! That's perfect! A (God) subtype sounds like the perfect thing for it to give some concrete rules meaning to deityhood. I love that idea, and now I'm going to have to figure out how to make it work.

No more making a difference between 'divine rank 0' and 'not divine'. Having the (God) subtype would be the equivalent of having DvR 0 currently, then adding in Rank on top of that is simply a measure of Salient Divine Ability, etc... Yeah, this can work.

And then, since (God) is a subtype, you could theoretically have (God)-related magic items and spells. God-bane weapons, and such, and an actual measure of 'you are a deity'. Score!

*selects (God) as her favored enemy race as a level 1 ranger...* :D
bluemage55
07-07-07, 04:16 PM I agree. Divinity as a subtype would often make sense.

As a sidenote, I would name the subtype (divine), rather than (deity), because the term "deity" alone might suggest something above DvR 0 (quasi-deityhood), while "divine" is more generic.

And then, since (God) is a subtype, you could theoretically have (God)-related magic items and spells. God-bane weapons, and such, and an actual measure of 'you are a deity'. Score!

*selects (God) as her favored enemy race as a level 1 ranger...* :D

I don't believe that bane weapons or Favored Enemy would be possible.

Both apply only to subtypes in the case of humanoids and outsiders, and to the general types on everything else. As the (divine) subtype would be across the board and not tied to humanoids or outsiders in particular, just like the (shapechanger) subtype, such a bane or Favored Enemy would not be possible.

However, it would be concievable to create a "divine-bane" epic weapon enhancement.
Drake_the_Windseeker
07-10-07, 04:43 PM You have a point-I see the pyramid as working for everything except ascended deities. Maybe we should use a (Deity) subtype instead of changing basic type?

Sounds like a good idea to me. Personally, I understand why DiceFreaks puts caps on mortal hit dice and such. Dieties are dieties for a reason. But I also believe in the odd chance, the underdog that can out-resource, outwit and beat down even a God. Change is a constant, so even gods must pass down the torch to a mortal every so often (or so rare, as the case may be).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drake_the_Windseeker 06-28-07, 06:02 PM	Due to the flavor text in the prestige class' ability Immortality, I am led to believe that the Dragon Ascendant becomes a quasi-diety. While statting most dieties, one comes across the text that something depends on Outsider hit dice. Now, for the Draconic Ascendant, would you think that they could use their Dragon hit dice instead of Outsider hit dice in order to calculate what sort of diety abilities it recieves?
Taeldrin Laesrash 06-28-07, 07:14 PM	Yes. However, divinity probably makes you an outsider in the first place.
Drake_the_Windseeker 06-28-07, 07:58 PM	Yes. However, divinity probably makes you an outsider in the first place. And why would this be? I'm not arguing mechanics, simply asking why one with the power of a Dragon would change to an Outsider on account of being immortal. When I think of an Outsider, I think of an extraplanar being. But would the power of a god really be extraplanar in nature?
Taeldrin Laesrash 06-28-07, 08:28 PM	And why would this be? I'm not arguing mechanics, simply asking why one with the power of a Dragon would change to an Outsider on account of being immortal. When I think of an Outsider, I think of an extraplanar being. But would the power of a god really be extraplanar in nature? By definition. Gods are belief made substance, like the planes they reside on. Even ascended deities have some of this.
Drake_the_Windseeker 06-28-07, 08:43 PM	By definition. Gods are belief made substance, like the planes they reside on. Even ascended deities have some of this. I'm not sure about that. I'm just talking about my beliefs, personally. Some would speak of a god as being able to will existence as they see fit, which could give credibility to the statement you just made. But what if they simply had access to an element or a power that mortals do not possess? Perhaps it is not belief, but then, that could be because we do not have the word to describe it.
Kihon 06-28-07, 11:07 PM	Drake the Immortal's Handbook takes a stance near what I believe you are stating. If you have not looked at that book, you may want to. On the other side of the argument the Canon D&D material does state that to be a 'true power' you are an outsider. I personally always wondered about the 'hero deities', 'quasi powers', 'cosmic forces', and perhaps even the least of the true demi-gods. Beyond that there is no doubt, you have become an outsider and represent some aspect of your domains. So I would say that a bit depends on your DM and their stance on what your power level is going to be, and how they are going to use it in play.
GoldGreatWyrm 06-28-07, 11:18 PM	I don't quite remember, but does Tiamat and Bahamut have dragon or outsider Hit Dice. That could be the answer to the question
Taeldrin Laesrash 06-28-07, 11:19 PM	I'm not sure about that. I'm just talking about my beliefs, personally. Some would speak of a god as being able to will existence as they see fit, which could give credibility to the statement you just made. But what if they simply had access to an element or a power that mortals do not possess? Perhaps it is not belief, but then, that could be because we do not have the word to describe it. It is difficult to describe. Most actual gods function on both innate divine power and mortal belief; without the latter, they can die and fade away. On the other hand, some gods don't need worshippers (Like Boccob, who is powered by magic) and quasi-deities (Hero-deities) only occasionlly have worshippers and clerics. A Dragon Ascendent would probably be working off the innate divinity. It's certainly not material and probably not elemental, so the Outer Planes (And thus, the Outsider type) seem to fit best for describing divinities.
rob_douglas 06-29-07, 12:14 AM	A Dragon Ascendent stays a Dragon. Bahamut and Tiamat both are Dragons, not Outsiders. Undead can also be the type of a god - see Vecna. The DA happens to become Divine Rank 0. It just so happens that all the abilities granted by the PrC are the same ones you get from the template. I am not sure what you mean about powers being tied to outsider Hit Dice. They don't get any more powers beyond the ones mentioned in the PrC. They certainly don't gain SDAs. If you want to make up rules for promoting them up the Divine ladder, that is a different issue. Whether they need worshippers or not, it is all up to the DM and not covered in the rules. ROB
Taeldrin Laesrash 06-29-07, 09:33 AM	I see now, DvRs don't actually change one's type to Outsider. That's what I do, I guess. Rob Douglas is right, there are no Dragon Ascendent powers based on Hit Dice. In fact, the divinity template never specifically mentions Outsider HD as powering its abilities, it's just DvR or unspecified HD.
Drake_the_Windseeker 06-29-07, 10:27 AM	Interesting debate I seem to have started here. My work is finished. Joking aside, when I was referring to certain abilities being tied to abilities, it was usually for diefic beings of Divine Rank 1 or more, and there are currently no official WotC rules about how one would ascend from Divine Rank 0 to 1. Someone should make an Ascender's Handbook. They can even use that name, if they want. I think it sounds good. That could be because I thought of it, though...
rob_douglas 06-29-07, 10:50 AM	That is basically what Upper Krust is doing - it is called the Ascension: The Immortals Handbook. ROB
Drake_the_Windseeker 06-30-07, 03:00 PM	That is basically what Upper Krust is doing - it is called the Ascension: The Immortals Handbook. ROB Thanks for the tip.
rob_douglas 07-01-07, 01:15 AM	I also just noticed an error in the Draconomicon. Clearly the DA is suposed to get all the DvR 0 abilities, but it is still getting 3.0 version of Fire Resistance. This was reduced from 20+DvR to 5+DvR. Its DR seems high too, but that seems to be on purpose as being better than DvR0. It is 3.5 compliant after all. SR should be 32, but is listed as 33. ROB
Starmage21 07-01-07, 06:07 PM	I see now, DvRs don't actually change one's type to Outsider. That's what I do, I guess. Rob Douglas is right, there are no Dragon Ascendent powers based on Hit Dice. In fact, the divinity template never specifically mentions Outsider HD as powering its abilities, it's just DvR or unspecified HD. Rather, it should be stated that upon gaining DvR that your type changes to outsider unless your current type is better. Both the Dragon and Undead types are pretty awesome to have. Its an SDA by itself to gain the undead qualities without actually being undead(which I think Nerull has that particular SDA). All the others would most likely become outsiders upon ascention IMO.
Taeldrin Laesrash 07-02-07, 02:29 PM	Rather, it should be stated that upon gaining DvR that your type changes to outsider unless your current type is better. Both the Dragon and Undead types are pretty awesome to have. Its an SDA by itself to gain the undead qualities without actually being undead(which I think Nerull has that particular SDA). All the others would most likely become outsiders upon ascention IMO. Savage Species had a list of "type tiers", where certain types on a base creature were replaced by higher-level tiers. In this case, Undead, Outsider, and Construct are all the final types a creature can have, it can't change after becoming one of those. All gods are outsiders, except for gods like Vecna, who were undead before ascension.
rob_douglas 07-02-07, 11:15 PM	And Bahamut who stays Dragon. It was also proposed the Elemental gods would stay Elemental as well. But I agree, anything else - humanoid, monstrous humanoid, magical beast, etc. should become Outsider. ROB
Starmage21 07-03-07, 11:42 AM	Savage Species had a list of "type tiers", where certain types on a base creature were replaced by higher-level tiers. In this case, Undead, Outsider, and Construct are all the final types a creature can have, it can't change after becoming one of those. All gods are outsiders, except for gods like Vecna, who were undead before ascension. That works, but the dragon type should be considered one of the end-types for this particular equation. It has pretty much everything outsider has to offer, with some things that are alot better (D12 hit die for instance).
Taeldrin Laesrash 07-03-07, 12:52 PM	It wasn't just about power, it was mostly flavor. If you're a Dracolich, are you more defined by your dragon-ness or your unliving-ness? SS assumes the latter. If you're a dragon made out of gears and steel parts, are you more defined by your dragon-ness or construct-ness? Again, the latter. If you're a Planar Dragon, well...Actually, they're dragons, despite being representatives of their plane. Stupid system...
Drake_the_Windseeker 07-04-07, 03:47 PM	It wasn't just about power, it was mostly flavor. If you're a Dracolich, are you more defined by your dragon-ness or your unliving-ness? SS assumes the latter. If you're a dragon made out of gears and steel parts, are you more defined by your dragon-ness or construct-ness? Again, the latter. If you're a Planar Dragon, well...Actually, they're dragons, despite being representatives of their plane. Stupid system... Well, actually the system makes sense, from a Neutral point of view, which how I think DMs need to look at D&D's mechanical system. Some people are biased towards certain racial types or alignments (for example, I'm quite certain that some of the administrator's on DiceFreaks are strongly biased on the Lawful-Evil side of things). In my opinion, one's type does not necessarily change due to another resource of power being attained. A being's type should define what they are at the most basic level. Just because a Dragon becomes a God does not make it any less a Dragon. Savage Species indicates on their Type Pyramid section the following: "Once a creature stops being a native of the Material Plane, it becomes an Outsider and stays one." But a Dragon can be born and raised in the Prime Material and become a quasi-diety while still residing on the Prime Material, so how would you justify it becoming an Outsider?
NinjaPenguin 07-05-07, 08:07 PM	Personally, I don't see why becoming a Deity would change your type at all? I mean, most characters that would ascend are of the Humanoid type and have no racial hit dice, so its only a matter of a few special abilities and targeting restrictions. Saying that, I haven't seen anything indicating that a Deity becomes an Outsider upon ascending, and especially the Dragon Ascendant itself. shrugs Still, pretty interesting
Taeldrin Laesrash 07-06-07, 01:30 PM	In my opinion, one's type does not necessarily change due to another resource of power being attained. A being's type should define what they are at the most basic level. Just because a Dragon becomes a God does not make it any less a Dragon. You have a point-I see the pyramid as working for everything except ascended deities. Maybe we should use a (Deity) subtype instead of changing basic type?
NinjaPenguin 07-06-07, 05:34 PM	gigglefits Yes! That's perfect! A (God) subtype sounds like the perfect thing for it to give some concrete rules meaning to deityhood. I love that idea, and now I'm going to have to figure out how to make it work. No more making a difference between 'divine rank 0' and 'not divine'. Having the (God) subtype would be the equivalent of having DvR 0 currently, then adding in Rank on top of that is simply a measure of Salient Divine Ability, etc... Yeah, this can work. And then, since (God) is a subtype, you could theoretically have (God)-related magic items and spells. God-bane weapons, and such, and an actual measure of 'you are a deity'. Score! selects (God) as her favored enemy race as a level 1 ranger... :D
bluemage55 07-07-07, 04:16 PM	I agree. Divinity as a subtype would often make sense. As a sidenote, I would name the subtype (divine), rather than (deity), because the term "deity" alone might suggest something above DvR 0 (quasi-deityhood), while "divine" is more generic. And then, since (God) is a subtype, you could theoretically have (God)-related magic items and spells. God-bane weapons, and such, and an actual measure of 'you are a deity'. Score! selects (God) as her favored enemy race as a level 1 ranger... :D I don't believe that bane weapons or Favored Enemy would be possible. Both apply only to subtypes in the case of humanoids and outsiders, and to the general types on everything else. As the (divine) subtype would be across the board and not tied to humanoids or outsiders in particular, just like the (shapechanger) subtype, such a bane or Favored Enemy would not be possible. However, it would be concievable to create a "divine-bane" epic weapon enhancement.
Drake_the_Windseeker 07-10-07, 04:43 PM	You have a point-I see the pyramid as working for everything except ascended deities. Maybe we should use a (Deity) subtype instead of changing basic type? Sounds like a good idea to me. Personally, I understand why DiceFreaks puts caps on mortal hit dice and such. Dieties are dieties for a reason. But I also believe in the odd chance, the underdog that can out-resource, outwit and beat down even a God. Change is a constant, so even gods must pass down the torch to a mortal every so often (or so rare, as the case may be).