Dragon #359 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon #359 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Unicorn_Giggles
09-25-07, 11:01 AM Does anyone else own this issue? If you do, then you know about the time dragon, which is a monster that has no place in this game. How could anyone possibly defeat a monster that has a CR 90 when it becomes a great wyrm? You’d need a couple of dragon gods helping you to stand a chance.

So my question is this: Why do people invent monsters that are so radically beyond any gamer’s scope? Even tackling a great wyrm prismatic dragon is an undertaking that would require an army of soldiers with levels equal to your greater than your party at your back. But what’s really crazy is I’m sure some nuckin’ futz DM out there saw that dragon and planned a way of slipping it in.
Deamon
09-25-07, 12:12 PM Because some people do game at that level. For example I'm fairly sure that RealSorceror's group could take down a great wyrm time dragon without breaking a sweat. Also if you compare it to the immortals handbook CR 90 is fairly low with around 20 monsters with higher CR and with it easily topped by the neutronium golem with its CR 9721.
Unicorn_Giggles
09-25-07, 12:42 PM Because some people do game at that level. For example I'm fairly sure that RealSorceror's group could take down a great wyrm time dragon without breaking a sweat. Also if you compare it to the immortals handbook CR 90 is fairly low with around 20 monsters with higher CR and with it easily topped by the neutronium golem with its CR 9721.

The whozawhata golem? Is there a possible link you can give me to some of these beasts?
Deamon
09-25-07, 12:53 PM Here's the site. (http://www.immortalshandbook.com/index.htm) The neutronium golem isn't there, but this (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=162465)is merely an oversized version. And if you want an obsenely powerful monster. (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2873260&postcount=1)
Unicorn_Giggles
09-25-07, 01:17 PM Well, after looking at the Mortiverse I feel pretty awkward for posting this topic. :P
Taeldrin Laesrash
09-25-07, 08:31 PM There was another thread talking about this. It is a pretty cool part of a fabulous send-off. It needs Time Duplicate, though.

But it really is there for those few groups who do play at those levels. More groups could use its younger forms, or just as a neat plot device.
Paradox_of_Life
09-25-07, 08:51 PM Here's the site. (http://www.immortalshandbook.com/index.htm) The neutronium golem isn't there, but this (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=162465)is merely an oversized version. And if you want an obsenely powerful monster. (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2873260&postcount=1)

You think THAT is powerful, try this....http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801

:D
E-Arkham
09-25-07, 11:29 PM There comes a point where you just have to stop and ask yourself, "Why bother writing stats for this?"

And that point is well, WELL before you need seven digit armour classes. :D

The smaller time dragons sound quite fun, however.

Kep
WarDragon
09-26-07, 12:50 AM Actually, the Mortiverse is more powerful than Pun-pun. Its abilities are literally infinite, while P-p's are merely arbitrarily high; i.e., lower than Mortiverse's.
BillTheManiac
09-26-07, 07:01 AM Actually, the Mortiverse is more powerful than Pun-pun. Its abilities are literally infinite, while P-p's are merely arbitrarily high; i.e., lower than Mortiverse's.

Keep up with the times. Pun-Pun has infinite abilities. And infinite turns. And Singular Enemy (Pun-Pun): Pun-Pun can only be harmed by Pun-Pun.
Deamon
09-26-07, 10:14 AM And Singular Enemy (Pun-Pun): Pun-Pun can only be harmed by Pun-Pun.Which the mortiverse can ignore. How does pun-pun get infinite ability scores.
Unicorn_Giggles
09-26-07, 10:43 AM Wow. Did my topic just turn into a Mortiverse vs. Pun-Pun debate? I apologize, everyone. I’ll never speak again.
BillTheManiac
09-26-07, 04:04 PM Which the mortiverse can ignore. How does pun-pun get infinite ability scores.

Infinite loops. See the Omniscifier. Oh and Pun-Pun also has infinite DvR.
Frobojoe
09-26-07, 04:17 PM Keep up with the times. Pun-Pun has infinite abilities. And infinite turns. And Singular Enemy (Pun-Pun): Pun-Pun can only be harmed by Pun-Pun.

Yeah, Mortiverse can just negate all of Pun-Pun's feats as well as his most powerful ability (say, manipulate form) and probably a bunch of other stuff that I don't remember because I didn't build Mortiverse. They both have infinite stats, but Mortiverse has better special abilities.
nekoryuu
09-26-07, 06:13 PM No, actually Pun-Pun has ALL the special abilities, including anything and everything Mortiverse has, and then some. He can actually make them up on the fly. And he ascends at level 1. As a paladin, no less, though that's not strictly necessary. It really is no contest.
PrinceOfTheVoid
09-26-07, 07:06 PM I for one would like to know how Pun-pun has access to Cosmic, Transcendental, and Omnific abilities. I belive he's statted on the IH forums as something like Cr 27,000 by Immortals Handbook standards. The Mortiverse is a little beyond that. (Unless someone has updated Pun-pun to take IH rules into account that is.)
BillTheManiac
09-26-07, 07:23 PM I for one would like to know how Pun-pun has access to Cosmic, Transcendental, and Omnific abilities. I belive he's statted on the IH forums as something like Cr 27,000 by Immortals Handbook standards. The Mortiverse is a little beyond that. (Unless someone has updated Pun-pun to take IH rules into account that is.)

So he's what, an ECL 1 CR 27,000 character?

I'd also like to point out that Pun-Pun can, if able to create a rock of uncountably infinite weight, can then lift it and throw it at himself, gaining uncountable infinity to all stats.

Oh, and he has Monty: Pun-Pun exists outside of time, and thus can never be defeated. He just starts again at the beginning of time.
Frobojoe
09-26-07, 08:26 PM So he's what, an ECL 1 CR 27,000 character?

I'd also like to point out that Pun-Pun can, if able to create a rock of uncountably infinite weight, can then lift it and throw it at himself, gaining uncountable infinity to all stats.

Yes, but that doesn't matter, because his infinite stats don't help him against Mortiverse. Actually, Pun-Pun doesn't even have Slipstream, so Mortiverse can just kill him with impunity, as Pun-Pun is unable to take actions against him.
PrinceOfTheVoid
09-26-07, 08:38 PM Seriously, the kind of powers that Time Lords and High Lords have make Pun-pun look like a wimp. I mean, I remeber there being an Omnific ability, a weaker one at that, that gestalts the TIme Lord in every single base class and prestiege class in the game. And of course, Learned Opponent Immunity (Pun-Pun) nullifies any argument anyways. What it basically comes down to is that these entities are so powerful that they basically change the rules of the game itself, making Pun-Pun, who is the ultimate expression of the power limit inherent within the 3.5 rule system, utterly out-classed. THere's really no arguement, and don't take it personally, its not like anything short of the Supreme Being (who remains arbitrarily statless) could even come close to slaying the Mortiverse anyways. Hell, every Time Lord in every dimension combining their powers together would have a hard time fighting that thing. (And if I'm wrong on any of these points, anyone who actually has read Ascension can feel free to correct me. I only know what I've seen on the boards and U_K's site.)
Taeldrin Laesrash
09-26-07, 08:42 PM It's not a fair comparison, really. Pun-Pun can't be compared to UK's beings, considering the mass of abilities they have. However, as long as they are SU, SP, or EX abilities, Pun-Pun's got them, and may even to be able to grant himself EX versions of the Immortal's abilities.

BTW, this is really off-topic.
BillTheManiac
09-26-07, 08:46 PM Yes, but that doesn't matter, because his infinite stats don't help him against Mortiverse. Actually, Pun-Pun doesn't even have Slipstream, so Mortiverse can just kill him with impunity, as Pun-Pun is unable to take actions against him.

Well there is infinite and then there is infinite. When your stat's are higher then Mortiverse's that has to count for someting.

I'm going to keep fighting anyways.

What is Slipstream? And what is Learned Opponent Immunity?

I'd also like to point out that this is a perfect example of what is wrong with Immortal's Handbook. As far as I can tell, there is a hierarchy of abilities that automatically win against people without that or stronger abilities.

I'd like to remind you that Pun-Pun has no abilities in categories with funny names, so is CR is technically 1.
PrinceOfTheVoid
09-26-07, 09:30 PM Pun-Pun was obviously not designed with the Immortals Handbook in mind, but he does offer a decent comparison to some of the more ridiculous open ended builds out there. Slipstream makes you immune to any time effect, basically you exist outside the time stream so that spells like TIme Stop and the more powerful variations thereof don't work on or near you. And learned opponent immunity is, I think, (and I'm not too sure on this one) basically makes you completely immune to harm from the selected individual. I think it is an Omnific ability, which is the equivelant of like hundreds of feats or something. (i.e. you could either take an Omnific Ability or several hundred stacking feats) Keep in mind though, that I don't own the pdf and have not read it, so that may not work that way or may even have been editted or abolished. If anyone here knows, help would be much appreciated.

Edit: I might be a little rusty on slipstream too, I haven't had access to my Epid Bestiary I in a while
Sagetim
09-26-07, 09:47 PM Well there is infinite and then there is infinite. When your stat's are higher then Mortiverse's that has to count for someting.

I'm going to keep fighting anyways.

What is Slipstream? And what is Learned Opponent Immunity?

I'd also like to point out that this is a perfect example of what is wrong with Immortal's Handbook. As far as I can tell, there is a hierarchy of abilities that automatically win against people without that or stronger abilities.

I'd like to remind you that Pun-Pun has no abilities in categories with funny names, so is CR is technically 1.

which means that the gods that it would take to kill him won't even get xp for it :P

also: I'm starting a topic for this debate specifically.
Frobojoe
09-26-07, 10:24 PM Well there is infinite and then there is infinite. When your stat's are higher then Mortiverse's that has to count for someting.

I'm going to keep fighting anyways.

What is Slipstream? And what is Learned Opponent Immunity?

I'd also like to point out that this is a perfect example of what is wrong with Immortal's Handbook. As far as I can tell, there is a hierarchy of abilities that automatically win against people without that or stronger abilities.

I'd like to remind you that Pun-Pun has no abilities in categories with funny names, so is CR is technically 1.
Slipstream just makes it so no one can go back in time and kill you when you were a kid. Mortiverse has Transtemporal, so he gets infinite actions against any creatures who don't have Slipstream (if Pun-Pun had slipstream, Mortiverse would just get triple actions against him). Learned Opponent Immunity means that anyone can only affect Mortiverse once. After that, he's immune to everything they do to him thereafter.

Also, you're high if you think a creature with arbitrarily high HD and infinite ability scores is CR 1. Pun-Pun starts out a level 1, he doesn't stay at ECL 1.
Deamon
09-27-07, 02:33 AM I'd also like to point out that this is a perfect example of what is wrong with Immortal's Handbook. As far as I can tell, there is a hierarchy of abilities that automatically win against people without that or stronger abilities.But those abilities only come into play if you're playing around ECL 720.
BillTheManiac
09-27-07, 02:03 PM Slipstream just makes it so no one can go back in time and kill you when you were a kid. Mortiverse has Transtemporal, so he gets infinite actions against any creatures who don't have Slipstream (if Pun-Pun had slipstream, Mortiverse would just get triple actions against him). Learned Opponent Immunity means that anyone can only affect Mortiverse once. After that, he's immune to everything they do to him thereafter.

Also, you're high if you think a creature with arbitrarily high HD and infinite ability scores is CR 1. Pun-Pun starts out a level 1, he doesn't stay at ECL 1.

"Monty" is definitely the same as Slipstream. Pun-Pun exists outside of time in the Far Realms.

Oh and Pun-Pun gets INFINITE actions against Mortiverse.

Learned Opponent Immunity: Pun-Pun can copy himself in 1 round easy, so he should have no problem getting around this.

There's nothing in Manipulate Form that mentions a change in ECL. Therefore ECL does not change.

Deamon: What is the point of a system that supports play at 720 unless your system supports actual play at level 720, rather then childhood games "oh I have an anti-anti-rocket launcher shield-rocket launcher! Oh nope I teleported out of the way!"?
PrinceOfTheVoid
09-27-07, 02:19 PM You know, that is kind of what this comes down to when you start comparing infinities like this.

Edit: So, what are Pun-Pun's base stats when the 2 infinities cancel each other out? Do they just resort to being arbitrarily high? But, can't the Mortiverse disrupt the time in which Pun-Pun is raising his stats to be that high? This is so confusing. Couldn't the Mortiverse destroy Pun-Pun before he acheives omnipotence and erases his past to duplicate Slipstream? I mean, the thing's senses extend beyond the reaches of the RL universe, in all dimensions too unless I'm mistaken, so it really doesn't seem like that much of a stretch. Then again, without any flavor to work with, we don't even know if the Mortiverse would move to protect itself anyways.
BillTheManiac
09-27-07, 03:48 PM You know, that is kind of what this comes down to when you start comparing infinities like this.

Edit: So, what are Pun-Pun's base stats when the 2 infinities cancel each other out?
Infinity. That's my point in the other thread.
Alternately, because he technically doesn't have infinite abilities, his abilities are equal to Mortiverse's. Therefore for example both of them always hit the other's AC and each have an equal chance of going first. The problem lies in subtraction: Infinite HP-Infinite damage=undefined. Well technically whoever is hit has taken damage equal to their HP+10, and is therefore dead.
But, can't the Mortiverse disrupt the time in which Pun-Pun is raising his stats to be that high?
Pun-Pun goes back in time before then, and transforms a random 1st level kobold paladin into Pun-Pun. For the purposes of this, I'm going to assume Neo-Terminator and slipstream cancel.
This is so confusing.
Your side's fault, not mine
Couldn't the Mortiverse destroy Pun-Pun before he acheives omnipotence and erases his past to duplicate Slipstream? I mean, the thing's senses extend beyond the reaches of the RL universe, in all dimensions too unless I'm mistaken, so it really doesn't seem like that much of a stretch. Then again, without any flavor to work with, we don't even know if the Mortiverse would move to protect itself anyways.
Pun-Pun can go back in time to protect itself as well. Like the Mortiverse he has infinite reach and he also can open up any number of portals.
PrinceOfTheVoid
09-27-07, 05:29 PM So they're both operating outside of the time stream basically since their time hopping should just nullify each other's.

(Perhaps these two threads should be merged?)
Frobojoe
09-27-07, 05:47 PM The problem lies in subtraction: Infinite HP-Infinite damage=undefined. Well technically whoever is hit has taken damage equal to their HP+10, and is therefore dead.

Under IH rules, Infinite Strength cancels out Infinite Constitution and you roll damage normally.
BillTheManiac
09-28-07, 07:08 AM So they're both operating outside of the time stream basically since their time hopping should just nullify each other's.

(Perhaps these two threads should be merged?)

Seems to me like what'd you'd get with slipstream v. slipstream.

Under Pun-Pun's infinite strength, he still has infinite strength. I think. Maybe. IH and infinite numbers are not compatible.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Unicorn_Giggles 09-25-07, 11:01 AM	Does anyone else own this issue? If you do, then you know about the time dragon, which is a monster that has no place in this game. How could anyone possibly defeat a monster that has a CR 90 when it becomes a great wyrm? You’d need a couple of dragon gods helping you to stand a chance. So my question is this: Why do people invent monsters that are so radically beyond any gamer’s scope? Even tackling a great wyrm prismatic dragon is an undertaking that would require an army of soldiers with levels equal to your greater than your party at your back. But what’s really crazy is I’m sure some nuckin’ futz DM out there saw that dragon and planned a way of slipping it in.
Deamon 09-25-07, 12:12 PM	Because some people do game at that level. For example I'm fairly sure that RealSorceror's group could take down a great wyrm time dragon without breaking a sweat. Also if you compare it to the immortals handbook CR 90 is fairly low with around 20 monsters with higher CR and with it easily topped by the neutronium golem with its CR 9721.
Unicorn_Giggles 09-25-07, 12:42 PM	Because some people do game at that level. For example I'm fairly sure that RealSorceror's group could take down a great wyrm time dragon without breaking a sweat. Also if you compare it to the immortals handbook CR 90 is fairly low with around 20 monsters with higher CR and with it easily topped by the neutronium golem with its CR 9721. The whozawhata golem? Is there a possible link you can give me to some of these beasts?
Deamon 09-25-07, 12:53 PM	Here's the site. (http://www.immortalshandbook.com/index.htm) The neutronium golem isn't there, but this (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=162465)is merely an oversized version. And if you want an obsenely powerful monster. (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2873260&postcount=1)
Unicorn_Giggles 09-25-07, 01:17 PM	Well, after looking at the Mortiverse I feel pretty awkward for posting this topic. :P
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-25-07, 08:31 PM	There was another thread talking about this. It is a pretty cool part of a fabulous send-off. It needs Time Duplicate, though. But it really is there for those few groups who do play at those levels. More groups could use its younger forms, or just as a neat plot device.
Paradox_of_Life 09-25-07, 08:51 PM	Here's the site. (http://www.immortalshandbook.com/index.htm) The neutronium golem isn't there, but this (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=162465)is merely an oversized version. And if you want an obsenely powerful monster. (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2873260&postcount=1) You think THAT is powerful, try this....http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801 :D
E-Arkham 09-25-07, 11:29 PM	There comes a point where you just have to stop and ask yourself, "Why bother writing stats for this?" And that point is well, WELL before you need seven digit armour classes. :D The smaller time dragons sound quite fun, however. Kep
WarDragon 09-26-07, 12:50 AM	Actually, the Mortiverse is more powerful than Pun-pun. Its abilities are literally infinite, while P-p's are merely arbitrarily high; i.e., lower than Mortiverse's.
BillTheManiac 09-26-07, 07:01 AM	Actually, the Mortiverse is more powerful than Pun-pun. Its abilities are literally infinite, while P-p's are merely arbitrarily high; i.e., lower than Mortiverse's. Keep up with the times. Pun-Pun has infinite abilities. And infinite turns. And Singular Enemy (Pun-Pun): Pun-Pun can only be harmed by Pun-Pun.
Deamon 09-26-07, 10:14 AM	And Singular Enemy (Pun-Pun): Pun-Pun can only be harmed by Pun-Pun.Which the mortiverse can ignore. How does pun-pun get infinite ability scores.
Unicorn_Giggles 09-26-07, 10:43 AM	Wow. Did my topic just turn into a Mortiverse vs. Pun-Pun debate? I apologize, everyone. I’ll never speak again.
BillTheManiac 09-26-07, 04:04 PM	Which the mortiverse can ignore. How does pun-pun get infinite ability scores. Infinite loops. See the Omniscifier. Oh and Pun-Pun also has infinite DvR.
Frobojoe 09-26-07, 04:17 PM	Keep up with the times. Pun-Pun has infinite abilities. And infinite turns. And Singular Enemy (Pun-Pun): Pun-Pun can only be harmed by Pun-Pun. Yeah, Mortiverse can just negate all of Pun-Pun's feats as well as his most powerful ability (say, manipulate form) and probably a bunch of other stuff that I don't remember because I didn't build Mortiverse. They both have infinite stats, but Mortiverse has better special abilities.
nekoryuu 09-26-07, 06:13 PM	No, actually Pun-Pun has ALL the special abilities, including anything and everything Mortiverse has, and then some. He can actually make them up on the fly. And he ascends at level 1. As a paladin, no less, though that's not strictly necessary. It really is no contest.
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-26-07, 07:06 PM	I for one would like to know how Pun-pun has access to Cosmic, Transcendental, and Omnific abilities. I belive he's statted on the IH forums as something like Cr 27,000 by Immortals Handbook standards. The Mortiverse is a little beyond that. (Unless someone has updated Pun-pun to take IH rules into account that is.)
BillTheManiac 09-26-07, 07:23 PM	I for one would like to know how Pun-pun has access to Cosmic, Transcendental, and Omnific abilities. I belive he's statted on the IH forums as something like Cr 27,000 by Immortals Handbook standards. The Mortiverse is a little beyond that. (Unless someone has updated Pun-pun to take IH rules into account that is.) So he's what, an ECL 1 CR 27,000 character? I'd also like to point out that Pun-Pun can, if able to create a rock of uncountably infinite weight, can then lift it and throw it at himself, gaining uncountable infinity to all stats. Oh, and he has Monty: Pun-Pun exists outside of time, and thus can never be defeated. He just starts again at the beginning of time.
Frobojoe 09-26-07, 08:26 PM	So he's what, an ECL 1 CR 27,000 character? I'd also like to point out that Pun-Pun can, if able to create a rock of uncountably infinite weight, can then lift it and throw it at himself, gaining uncountable infinity to all stats. Yes, but that doesn't matter, because his infinite stats don't help him against Mortiverse. Actually, Pun-Pun doesn't even have Slipstream, so Mortiverse can just kill him with impunity, as Pun-Pun is unable to take actions against him.
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-26-07, 08:38 PM	Seriously, the kind of powers that Time Lords and High Lords have make Pun-pun look like a wimp. I mean, I remeber there being an Omnific ability, a weaker one at that, that gestalts the TIme Lord in every single base class and prestiege class in the game. And of course, Learned Opponent Immunity (Pun-Pun) nullifies any argument anyways. What it basically comes down to is that these entities are so powerful that they basically change the rules of the game itself, making Pun-Pun, who is the ultimate expression of the power limit inherent within the 3.5 rule system, utterly out-classed. THere's really no arguement, and don't take it personally, its not like anything short of the Supreme Being (who remains arbitrarily statless) could even come close to slaying the Mortiverse anyways. Hell, every Time Lord in every dimension combining their powers together would have a hard time fighting that thing. (And if I'm wrong on any of these points, anyone who actually has read Ascension can feel free to correct me. I only know what I've seen on the boards and U_K's site.)
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-26-07, 08:42 PM	It's not a fair comparison, really. Pun-Pun can't be compared to UK's beings, considering the mass of abilities they have. However, as long as they are SU, SP, or EX abilities, Pun-Pun's got them, and may even to be able to grant himself EX versions of the Immortal's abilities. BTW, this is really off-topic.
BillTheManiac 09-26-07, 08:46 PM	Yes, but that doesn't matter, because his infinite stats don't help him against Mortiverse. Actually, Pun-Pun doesn't even have Slipstream, so Mortiverse can just kill him with impunity, as Pun-Pun is unable to take actions against him. Well there is infinite and then there is infinite. When your stat's are higher then Mortiverse's that has to count for someting. I'm going to keep fighting anyways. What is Slipstream? And what is Learned Opponent Immunity? I'd also like to point out that this is a perfect example of what is wrong with Immortal's Handbook. As far as I can tell, there is a hierarchy of abilities that automatically win against people without that or stronger abilities. I'd like to remind you that Pun-Pun has no abilities in categories with funny names, so is CR is technically 1.
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-26-07, 09:30 PM	Pun-Pun was obviously not designed with the Immortals Handbook in mind, but he does offer a decent comparison to some of the more ridiculous open ended builds out there. Slipstream makes you immune to any time effect, basically you exist outside the time stream so that spells like TIme Stop and the more powerful variations thereof don't work on or near you. And learned opponent immunity is, I think, (and I'm not too sure on this one) basically makes you completely immune to harm from the selected individual. I think it is an Omnific ability, which is the equivelant of like hundreds of feats or something. (i.e. you could either take an Omnific Ability or several hundred stacking feats) Keep in mind though, that I don't own the pdf and have not read it, so that may not work that way or may even have been editted or abolished. If anyone here knows, help would be much appreciated. Edit: I might be a little rusty on slipstream too, I haven't had access to my Epid Bestiary I in a while
Sagetim 09-26-07, 09:47 PM	Well there is infinite and then there is infinite. When your stat's are higher then Mortiverse's that has to count for someting. I'm going to keep fighting anyways. What is Slipstream? And what is Learned Opponent Immunity? I'd also like to point out that this is a perfect example of what is wrong with Immortal's Handbook. As far as I can tell, there is a hierarchy of abilities that automatically win against people without that or stronger abilities. I'd like to remind you that Pun-Pun has no abilities in categories with funny names, so is CR is technically 1. which means that the gods that it would take to kill him won't even get xp for it :P also: I'm starting a topic for this debate specifically.
Frobojoe 09-26-07, 10:24 PM	Well there is infinite and then there is infinite. When your stat's are higher then Mortiverse's that has to count for someting. I'm going to keep fighting anyways. What is Slipstream? And what is Learned Opponent Immunity? I'd also like to point out that this is a perfect example of what is wrong with Immortal's Handbook. As far as I can tell, there is a hierarchy of abilities that automatically win against people without that or stronger abilities. I'd like to remind you that Pun-Pun has no abilities in categories with funny names, so is CR is technically 1. Slipstream just makes it so no one can go back in time and kill you when you were a kid. Mortiverse has Transtemporal, so he gets infinite actions against any creatures who don't have Slipstream (if Pun-Pun had slipstream, Mortiverse would just get triple actions against him). Learned Opponent Immunity means that anyone can only affect Mortiverse once. After that, he's immune to everything they do to him thereafter. Also, you're high if you think a creature with arbitrarily high HD and infinite ability scores is CR 1. Pun-Pun starts out a level 1, he doesn't stay at ECL 1.
Deamon 09-27-07, 02:33 AM	I'd also like to point out that this is a perfect example of what is wrong with Immortal's Handbook. As far as I can tell, there is a hierarchy of abilities that automatically win against people without that or stronger abilities.But those abilities only come into play if you're playing around ECL 720.
BillTheManiac 09-27-07, 02:03 PM	Slipstream just makes it so no one can go back in time and kill you when you were a kid. Mortiverse has Transtemporal, so he gets infinite actions against any creatures who don't have Slipstream (if Pun-Pun had slipstream, Mortiverse would just get triple actions against him). Learned Opponent Immunity means that anyone can only affect Mortiverse once. After that, he's immune to everything they do to him thereafter. Also, you're high if you think a creature with arbitrarily high HD and infinite ability scores is CR 1. Pun-Pun starts out a level 1, he doesn't stay at ECL 1. "Monty" is definitely the same as Slipstream. Pun-Pun exists outside of time in the Far Realms. Oh and Pun-Pun gets INFINITE actions against Mortiverse. Learned Opponent Immunity: Pun-Pun can copy himself in 1 round easy, so he should have no problem getting around this. There's nothing in Manipulate Form that mentions a change in ECL. Therefore ECL does not change. Deamon: What is the point of a system that supports play at 720 unless your system supports actual play at level 720, rather then childhood games "oh I have an anti-anti-rocket launcher shield-rocket launcher! Oh nope I teleported out of the way!"?
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-27-07, 02:19 PM	You know, that is kind of what this comes down to when you start comparing infinities like this. Edit: So, what are Pun-Pun's base stats when the 2 infinities cancel each other out? Do they just resort to being arbitrarily high? But, can't the Mortiverse disrupt the time in which Pun-Pun is raising his stats to be that high? This is so confusing. Couldn't the Mortiverse destroy Pun-Pun before he acheives omnipotence and erases his past to duplicate Slipstream? I mean, the thing's senses extend beyond the reaches of the RL universe, in all dimensions too unless I'm mistaken, so it really doesn't seem like that much of a stretch. Then again, without any flavor to work with, we don't even know if the Mortiverse would move to protect itself anyways.
BillTheManiac 09-27-07, 03:48 PM	You know, that is kind of what this comes down to when you start comparing infinities like this. Edit: So, what are Pun-Pun's base stats when the 2 infinities cancel each other out? Infinity. That's my point in the other thread. Alternately, because he technically doesn't have infinite abilities, his abilities are equal to Mortiverse's. Therefore for example both of them always hit the other's AC and each have an equal chance of going first. The problem lies in subtraction: Infinite HP-Infinite damage=undefined. Well technically whoever is hit has taken damage equal to their HP+10, and is therefore dead. But, can't the Mortiverse disrupt the time in which Pun-Pun is raising his stats to be that high? Pun-Pun goes back in time before then, and transforms a random 1st level kobold paladin into Pun-Pun. For the purposes of this, I'm going to assume Neo-Terminator and slipstream cancel. This is so confusing. Your side's fault, not mine Couldn't the Mortiverse destroy Pun-Pun before he acheives omnipotence and erases his past to duplicate Slipstream? I mean, the thing's senses extend beyond the reaches of the RL universe, in all dimensions too unless I'm mistaken, so it really doesn't seem like that much of a stretch. Then again, without any flavor to work with, we don't even know if the Mortiverse would move to protect itself anyways. Pun-Pun can go back in time to protect itself as well. Like the Mortiverse he has infinite reach and he also can open up any number of portals.
PrinceOfTheVoid 09-27-07, 05:29 PM	So they're both operating outside of the time stream basically since their time hopping should just nullify each other's. (Perhaps these two threads should be merged?)
Frobojoe 09-27-07, 05:47 PM	The problem lies in subtraction: Infinite HP-Infinite damage=undefined. Well technically whoever is hit has taken damage equal to their HP+10, and is therefore dead. Under IH rules, Infinite Strength cancels out Infinite Constitution and you roll damage normally.
BillTheManiac 09-28-07, 07:08 AM	So they're both operating outside of the time stream basically since their time hopping should just nullify each other's. (Perhaps these two threads should be merged?) Seems to me like what'd you'd get with slipstream v. slipstream. Under Pun-Pun's infinite strength, he still has infinite strength. I think. Maybe. IH and infinite numbers are not compatible.