Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Roivas 06-18-07, 10:53 PM	After some discussion with my current group it has been decided I am going to be running the final battle in our game. The battle will be against a Great Wyrm Red dragon and it's minions and the player will have to find a way into the lair themselves. I have a small issue though, the players are all new to epic games and I don't just want to add four new marks to my screen. So how tough should I make the dragon? The players will be fighting it at 27th level and so far I just gave the dragon a group of four CR 20 monsters [one of each 'core' type] as backup during the fight to push the CR up to 27 should I make it harder or not? Also I am limiting their options on epic item purchases, not allowing them to have a single item worth more than 1/4th their wealth for that level.
dragon221284 06-19-07, 01:39 AM	i think its to low for the final battle 1xCR24 (Great Red) and 4xCR20 is for a group of Lvl 27 PC's no Problem. personaly i would make a Half-Fiend Great Red Wyrm (CR27) with 4 Minions (CR20 each) for an CR28-CR29 fight and not a CR26 final battle...
Roivas 06-19-07, 02:08 AM	A great wrym red dragon alone is a CR 26. The vampire cleric, half-dragon drider sorcerer, dragonkin barbarian, and the githzerai ninja should be enough to tip the scales into balance right?
dragon221284 06-19-07, 04:47 AM	A great wrym red dragon alone is a CR 26. The vampire cleric, half-dragon drider sorcerer, dragonkin barbarian, and the githzerai ninja should be enough to tip the scales into balance right? oh... thats looks nice :) you right that is enought.
Dispater24 06-19-07, 08:53 AM	a tribe of hill Giants or trolls would be good for distraction and forwarning of the BBEG and his power minions.
rob_douglas 06-19-07, 02:09 PM	Take a look at the Dungeon Delve articles: Part I (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060929a) Part II (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20061013a) Part I has the set up, and a link to 20th level character sheets to take on 2 dragons provided in Part II. The first is a CR22 Black, the second is a CR 26 Red. The whole is designed to allow you to run the setup yourself, and if you are new to dragon-fighting at epic, this might be a good pre-cursor for your entire group. For a final fight, I like the CR of the BBEG to be 4 more than the party. They might all die - but being the "last" fight of the day, they also don't have to hold back. There should also be one minion per party member above 2, and that minion should be CR 1 or 2 less than the party. So in your case, I would want a CR31 dragon, and 2 minions of CR25. But try out the delve, I think you will find it great fun for getting your head around all the options at Epic. Then you can design your own final battle with your friends' characters in mind. ROB
Roivas 06-22-07, 12:33 AM	I've got the basic plan for now the first fight will be two advanced ironwrym golems a CR 25 fight and they can both heal each other. Then on to the 10 fire giants all 10th level fighters and their leader the storm giant fighter who wields a colossal greatsword. Then the final battle against a great wyrm red dragon and his cohorts each a CR20. An 18th level vampire cleric of Erthynul, a half [red] dragon drider 11th level sorcerer, a githzerai ninja 18th level, and a dragonnkin barbarian 17. Should I add another fight before the last battle? Are any of these fights lacking something? The tactic for the final fight is for the dragon have greater invisibility cast [he'll hear them coming no problem] when they get into the room and an illusion of the dragon popping out of the lava will appear to draw the first round's attacks. Hopefully this will trick them into throwing their best spells away at an invisible opponent. But then the ninja and the barbarian will attack from the cave ceiling attempting to take out/harass the spellcaster early into the fight. Big red will cast a few buffs on himself as the drider uses shout followed by a quickened invisibility to mask the sounds of the dragon's spellcasting. From there tactics will break down based off of how the initial strike worked. The vampire will be held in reserve for later as the dragon will most likely move into melee after using a fire/acid breath weapon attack and crave up whoever seemed to take the least amount of damage from his attacks. But if the fight turns south the vampire is to cast energy drain on the healer or the spell lobber whichever tactics dictate and then cast heal on the dragon so it can focus on slaying the foe who has most constantly damaged it. Any ideas?
rob_douglas 06-22-07, 11:13 AM	That sounds fine. One thing you could add as a cohort is a bard-type (stealing from Bastion of Broken Souls). Inspire Greatness and such can really make the Dragon's attacks something fierce. The golems are good - makes for a nice entrance guardian. Fire Giants - but lead by a Storm Giant? He isn't immune to fire. Is this taking place inside a volcano (as I would expect). Even so, you could make him a Blackguard if you wanted something different than a fighter (stealing from Storm Lord's Keep). Most likely the cohorts will have no real effect on the battle. I doubt the barbarian will be able to hit the party if they are buffed right, and they should be immune to energy drain. Greater Dispel might be the cleric and sorcerer's best bets - targeting the party's weapons and armor first. The Dragon could use Project Image instead of "just an illusion". Then all his attacks seem to come from there anyway, and he can remain hidden much longer. OK, so the real question - how are you dealing with Etherealness or Astral Projection? How are you making it so the party HAS to go through all the other encounters, instead of around them? With the Cleric, that means you can have Forbiddance around the area - keeping out extra planar travel. That will help. It also damages the party. Be sure to put some symbols and greater glyphs of warding around in inconvenient places. And maybe a Passwall behind the dragon providing an escape route. Sounds like you are planning the fight to be inside - that means one of the biggest advantages to the dragon - flight - is lost. Be sure he can take the fight outside if the party is doing too many full-attacks. ROB
Roivas 06-22-07, 06:14 PM	If the players chose to fight the dragon ignoring the other encounters the dragon can easily stay alive long enough for the rest of his minions [the giants] to arrive and tip the scales even further in the favor of the dragon. I don't really need to worry about the dragon missing anything given that it can with true strike get a +80 to hit and the characters aren't going to have access to epic spells due to the time consuming nature of the development of such. Anticipate teleport [greater] is one of the sorcerer's higher level spells so if the player teleport in it gives the dragon 3 rounds to get ready for a fight, which is two more than it needs, and it can also summon it's minions. The barbarian being large and having multiattack gives it 7 attacks which all have at least a +40 and do respectable damage so I wouldn't count him count either. Greater dispel magic is a good spell for both the cleric and sorcerer and I fully expect the players warded with death ward or better at the fight's start. As far as the advice on project image, appreciated I'll most likely use it. And I'll think of some way around ethereal targets that doesn't involve magic missile.
Lixith 06-24-07, 02:42 PM	If the battle is way too one sided for the PC's, and it's clear they are going to win fairly early on..... 5 baylors with class levels (or whatever) teleport in/fall from hidden compartments in the ceeling...etc. But only if it's necessicary... and don't pull that trick very often.