Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Starman IX 04-12-07, 11:06 AM	Something with a +4 level adjustment, does it get epic attack/saves/feats when it reaches level 17? Something with +7 level adjustment and +7 racial hit die, does it get epic attack/saves/feats when it reaches level 7 or 13? Something with nil level adjustment and 12 racial hit die, does it get epic attack/saves/feats when it reaches level 9?
Witch 04-12-07, 11:09 AM	Something with a +4 level adjustment, does it get epic attack/saves/feats when it reaches level 17? No. I might allow epic feats in my game, though. Something with +7 level adjustment and +7 racial hit die, does it get epic attack/saves/feats when it reaches level 7 or 13? 14. Something with nil level adjustment and 12 racial hit die, does it get epic attack/saves/feats when it reaches level 9? Yes.
Starman IX 04-12-07, 11:13 AM	Thanks :)
runestar 04-12-07, 11:39 AM	Are you sure that makes sense? If so, that seems to unfairly screw over monstrous PC fighter types, since they get skewed over for their bab, though their saves benefit. This means that PCs with a LA of +5 or more can never get their 4th iterative attack...:weep: I am aware of the existing FAQ ruling. Though I would still rule that regardless of LA, you still incur epic bab/saves progression only when the sum of your racial HD and class lvs exceed 20.
Witch 04-12-07, 11:48 AM	Are you sure that makes sense? If so, that seems to unfairly screw over monstrous PC fighter types, since they get skewed over for their bab, though their saves benefit. This means that PCs with a LA of +5 or more can never get their 4th iterative attack...:weep: I am aware of the existing FAQ ruling. Though I would still rule that regardless of LA, you still incur epic bab/saves progression only when the sum of your racial HD and class lvs exceed 20. Before you go in with this line of reasoning, I suggest you read what I answered. Your post seems to suggest otherwise.
rob_douglas 04-12-07, 03:00 PM	Witch has it all right. Runestar, you are agreeing with Witch. Level adjustment is not part of figuring out Epic AB/Saves, but racial hit dice are. The fighters that really get s****ed over are the Cloud Giants and Storm Giants. They never get a 4th attack, but Fire, Frost, etc do. ROB
bluemage55 04-12-07, 03:03 PM	The fighters that really get s****ed over are the Cloud Giants and Storm Giants. They never get a 4th attack, but Fire, Frost, etc do. I am really thinking that should be fixed somehow. Issues like this can't have been the intention when they were creating the Epic BAB/save rules.
Lacyon 04-12-07, 03:55 PM	I am really thinking that should be fixed somehow. Issues like this can't have been the intention when they were creating the Epic BAB/save rules. the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks), use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus. Just make Epic attack bonus count as Base Attack Bonus for all purposes and cap out at 4 iterative attacks? This would allow medium BAB classes an extra attack once they hit 31st level (and a 4th for low-BAB classes at 41st level). How much of a problem would that be? The spellcasters won't likely be full-attacking much (unless they're melee clerics, who would get 4 attacks with Divine Power anyway). Rogues/Bards can already UMD a Divine Power wand/staff (even a persistent one, by Epic). Anyone else would have a fairly hard time hitting with that last attack, I'd think. -Lacyon
runestar 04-13-07, 01:08 AM	Witch has it all right. Runestar, you are agreeing with Witch. Level adjustment is not part of figuring out Epic AB/Saves, but racial hit dice are. Slaps face on desk... This is what I get for posting way past bedtime...:embarrass
rob_douglas 04-16-07, 10:16 AM	Lacyon makes a good point. I was always concerned because they clearly "intended" not to give 4 attacks to wizards and clerics, but Divine Power and Tenser's Transformation show that it can be done, and you could make either persistent and hard to dispel by 31st and 41st level (I know - Tenser's has its own limitations, but you could get it from Limited Wishing DP instead by then). So there is no real reason not to just add the extra attacks in. 4 attacks for clerics and rogues and 3 for wizards at 31st level, 4 for all at 41st. One benefit that comes from more attacks for a wizard is with the feats Wand/Staff Expertise from Epic Compilation. They let you activate such an item once per attack - including hasted, so you could activate a staff 5 times in a round - so that could be an issue. But an Eldritch Knight already could do that (and I think the feat should be revisited in light of 3.5 - the change in Haste means they tended to want fewer spells a round, and the change in staff rules made them more effective as well). ROB
bluemage55 04-16-07, 12:34 PM	Hmm, I just noticed something. In the ELH, under epic attack bonus, they stipulate that EAB does not apply towards additional attacks. However, the Epic SRD leaves out that paranthesized phrase. Perhaps it's already fixed? :D