Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grandmaster_Kane 06-16-07, 05:38 PM	Does anybody have any mor accurate Ecl's for the creatures in the handbook? Specifically Atropal, Infernal, LeShay and Titan elder
Taeldrin Laesrash 06-16-07, 08:44 PM	Check the errata. They're corrected there.
rob_douglas 06-17-07, 12:14 AM	Not that it helps, as there are still some creatures with ECL less than their HD. No, you can't trust the ECL values for creatures in the ELH. You can start there (and use HD when the value is less than that, i.e. LA +0) and then see how a particular creature works out in the game. ROB
runestar 06-17-07, 01:11 AM	According to the errata, force dragons have a LA of +0...:eek:
Balthanon 06-17-07, 02:01 AM	Yes, I would say the answer is a simple no. Even in the errata, the only thing that was done was to boost the LA up to the minimum of +0. They made no actual attempt to determine the correct ECL.
Taeldrin Laesrash 06-17-07, 01:02 PM	Real ECL is always going to be tricky to figure out. The system's lousy too, at the guesstimated ECLs, the monsters will be horribly weak. I've always looked at it this way: The monster is its own class, it gets HD, and its abilities are like class abilities. Doesn't it seem ridiculous that a 3rd-level Wizard has spells and ECL 3, while a Wyrmling dragon with spells and the same HD is a 6th-level character? Or something like that, but the point is, monsters need more than HD to be effective. I'd recommend playing a monster (Epic or otherwise) as an ECL of its HD, and give it a small LA if there's something really ridiculous.
danelsan 06-17-07, 05:56 PM	Comparing the mage with the dragon of the same HD is not so simple: the dragon is likelly to have more HP (d12, not d4),and surely or possibly better natural armor, stats (str, for example), spell resistance, damage reduction, spell-like abilities, breath weapon, flight, natural weapons and so on... So, sometimes a small LA won't do it. Take a LV 65 human Fighter and a 60 HD dragon with the same money for equipament and the same base values for stats. I'd say the dragon is not only much more powerful in one on one fight, but also better in a group against monsters several times in an adventure, and also more versatile, with magical powers that could help out of battle and more skill points. All that counts in ECL, and I believe many monsters are in fact way more powerful per HD than normal LA+0 characters with class levels (in all aspects of adventuring).
Grandmaster_Kane 06-17-07, 06:16 PM	Comparing the mage with the dragon of the same HD is not so simple: the dragon is likelly to have more HP (d12, not d4),and surely or possibly better natural armor, stats (str, for example), spell resistance, damage reduction, spell-like abilities, breath weapon, flight, natural weapons and so on... So, sometimes a small LA won't do it. Take a LV 65 human Fighter and a 60 HD dragon with the same money for equipament and the same base values for stats. I'd say the dragon is not only much more powerful in one on one fight, but also better in a group against monsters several times in an adventure, and also more versatile, with magical powers that could help out of battle and more skill points. All that counts in ECL, and I believe many monsters are in fact way more powerful per HD than normal LA+0 characters with class levels (in all aspects of adventuring). Well considering the amount of money a level 65 fighter would get i wouldnt be surprised We are talkin major artifact level money here -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyway i was thinking that i could use the cr as ecl
fnord 06-17-07, 06:28 PM	Anyway i was thinking that i could use the cr as ecl No. That doesn't work. You could maybe use CR as LA. First glance ballparks on the monsters: Atropal: ECL ~80 Infernal: ECL ~55 LeShay: ECL ~55 Elder Titan: ECL ~80
hawkinsthedm 06-17-07, 06:33 PM	Here is a template I made for the leShay. Only elves can take it. Tell me what you think: LESHAY (TEMPLATE) CREATING A LESHAY “LeShay” is an inherited template that can be added to any elf (referred to hereafter as the base creature). A leShay uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here. Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to fey. Do not recalculate the creature’s Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or saves. Size is unchanged. Speed: A leShay gains a +10 ft enhancement bonus to speed. Armor Class: A leShay gains a +20 insight bonus to AC. They also gain a +5 natural armor bonus (if the base creature already has natural armor, use whichever is better) Special Attacks: A leShay retains all the special attacks of the base creature and also gains the following special abilities. LeShay Weapons (Su): Each leShay carries two personal melee weapons that he or she manifests from his or her own life essence. The weapon can change form as he or she shifts from class to class, typically appearing as a bastard sword (one in each hand). When not in combat, the weapons simply do not exist, but leShay can “draw” their weapons from nowhere as a free action. LeShay weapons are considered light weapons for a leShay, regardless of their size. LeShay weapons are +10 keen brilliant energy weapons. Gaze (Su): All creatures within 30 feet who meet the gaze of a leShay become affected as if by charm monster. A Will save (DC 15 + 1/2 the leShay’s HD + the leShay’s Charisma modifier) negates the effect. Each opponent within range of a gaze attack must attempt a saving throw each round at the beginning of his or her turn in the initiative order. A leShay can also actively gaze as an attack action by choosing a target within range, who must then attempt a saving throw. LeShay are immune to their own gaze. The DC is Charisma-based. Spell-Like Abilities: At will—alter self, detect thoughts, displacement, freedom, greater dispelling, heal, greater invisibility, knock, speak with plants, spell turning, greater teleport, water breathing. Caster level 28th; save DC 28 + spell level. The DCs are Charisma-based. (Should the caster level be mutable? Right now all I can figure out is that the Caster Level is 15 + their Charisma Modifier) Special Qualities: A leShay has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus the following special qualities. — Superior Two-Weapon Fighting: A leShay fights with a leShay weapon in each hand. Because these weapons are extensions of its own body, the leShay does not take an attack or Damage penalty for attacking with two weapons. — Damage Reduction: 15/epic and cold iron. If the creature already possesses Damage reduction, use whichever is better. — Immunity to poison and disease. — Low-light vision. — Spell resistance equal to the paragon creature’s CR +25. If the creature already possesses spell resistance, use whichever is higher. (I couldn't find a good formula for figuring why a leShay's given SR is 42, so I used the SR from the Paragon Template). — Fast healing 10. If the creature already possesses fast healing, use whichever is better. — A leShay never dies of old age; they perish only if killed. — A leShay’s natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Saves: Same as base creature. Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +10, Dex +34, Con +26, Int +22, Wis +12, Cha +36. Skills: Same as base creature. Feats: Same as base creature, plus Polygot. Challenge Rating: As base creature +15. (CR for a 50 HD fey is 13, CR 28 - 13 = 15; I also note that the CR increase of a Paragon is +15) Alignment: Same as base creature. Advancement: Same as base creature. Level Adjustment: As base creature +17. (This could actually be anywhere between +17 and +20, I was just using an algorithm I found on another post: (CR / 5) + CR - 1 = ECL. So a Level 1 Elf Sorcerer with the the leShay template would be: (16 / 5) + 16 -1 = aprx. 18 ECL. 18 ECL - 1 level of Sorcerer = +17 LA). --Hawkins
bluemage55 06-18-07, 02:59 AM	Err, no. LeShay are not a type of elf. They are a different type of creature entirely. A template turning elves into leshay is about as appropriate as a template turning a dwarf into a gnome.
overelemental 06-18-07, 03:18 AM	A template turning elves into leshay is about as appropriate as a template turning a dwarf into a gnome. Now there's a template I'd love to see.
Grandmaster_Kane 06-18-07, 06:15 AM	arent LeShay fey?
hawkinsthedm 06-18-07, 11:23 AM	Err, no. LeShay are not a type of elf. They are a different type of creature entirely. I am not saying that hey are elves. However, the ELH hints at a relation to elves. Also, the main purpose was to see if the template was balanced, not if you agree with me as to whether or not they are a type of elf. arent LeShay fey? You are correct Kane, that is why the template changes the type from humaniod to fey. I also chose elf as the base race because the leShay begins with all of the elf traits. This template supplies two things: 1) since the base race must be elf, then there may be a variety of leShay subraces, just like there is for pretty much every major race in D&D; 2) to provide the leShay with the ability to take character classes and utilize the fact that their weapons are supposed to change with their class.
Starmage21 06-18-07, 11:31 AM	I am not saying that hey are elves. However, the ELH hints at a relation to elves. Also, the main purpose was to see if the template was balanced, not if you agree with me as to whether or not they are a type of elf. You are correct Kane, that is why the template changes the type from humaniod to fey. This template supplies two things: 1) since the base race must be elf, then there may be a variety of leShay subraces, just like there is for pretty much every major race in D&D; 2) to provide the leShay with the ability to take character classes and utilize the fact that their weapons are supposed to change with their class. Why do their weapons need to change with their class? Theyre always proficient with the "bastard swords"(lightsabers) that they can create anyway. If a LeShay takes up the commoner profession, they can still use their energy weapons just as good as they could before. Theyre not losing proficiency.
hawkinsthedm 06-18-07, 12:04 PM	Basically, every different monster is a "template" added to a certain number of hit dice for the monster's type. For example, the Atropal has the Undead type. An Undead's CR increases by 1 for every four HD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingHitDice). This begins our base CR for a 66 HD Atropal at 16.5, rounded up to 17. Next the Atropal's size is large, increasing its CR by another 1 (see link above). Though you are supposed to include another +2 to the CR for "special attacks or qualities that significantly improve combat effectiveness," I am not going to add that to the base CR and include that as part of the "template" CR. So now we have a base CR of 18 (17 for HD plus 1 for size). If we subtract that from the CR for the Atropal, which is 30, then we get a "template" CR of +12. Continuing on to the Infernal. The Infernal's type is Outsider, giving it a base CR of 20 (+1 CR for every two levels). Its size is large, giving it another +1 to CR for a total base CR of 21. If you subtract the base CR from the total CR of 26, you get a +5 "template" CR. Next, the leShay. The leShay's type is Fey, so it receives a base CR of 13 (50 / 4 = 12.5, rounded up to 13). The leShay's size is medium, so it does not receive any bonus to CR for size. The total CR of 28 minus the base CR of 13 gives you a "template" CR of +15. Finally, the Elder Titan. The Elder Titan's type is Ousider, which then breaks my formula because that would put its base CR at 35, which is higher than its total CR of 30. This breaks my theory, or the CR of the Elder Titan is wrong. I would appreciate help with this. If you choose to ignore my issues with the Elder Titan, then all you have to do is find a formula to change the CR adjustment of the "template" to a level adjustment. A level adjustment is never lower than the CR adjustment. The two formula's I have found that seem to work are: LA = CR +2 -OR- ECL = (CR / 5) + CR (-1 for epic templates). For the second formula, you then subtract the HD from the ECL to find the LA. Also, I do not know how to determine how many HD each type of monster should begin with. Most monstrous races begin with some hit dice (i.e. Mind Flayer, Thri-Keen, Lizardfolk, et cetera). Hack away at me :) , Hawkins
BillTheManiac 06-18-07, 03:38 PM	*hacking sound effect* Ability scores. Does the X creature template include X's ability scores-10? Do we assume the base creature had elite array? Average for its size? The CR system doesn't mention that because it looks only at changes to HD. Not all 66 HD undead with no special abilities are the same.
hawkinsthedm 06-18-07, 05:09 PM	Does the X creature template include X's ability scores-10? Do we assume the base creature had elite array? I'm not sure. I think we assume reductions of ability scores -10 (or -11 if an odd number) because most were not meant to be player races, and therefore probably did not have the elite array. Once upon a time, it all made sense, now it doesn't ("Oh, how the mighty have fallen!"). Anyway, I think my leShay template is workable still, whether or not you limit the bast creature to being an elf. But then again, I am not so sure about anything anymore. I think we need to call in the Epic Guru's. "Quick commissioner, light up the Epic Guru signal!"
Witch 06-18-07, 05:17 PM	I disagree with the system you propose. Analyzing hit dice and abilities seperately for purposes of CR is not a good idea, in my opinion - as is shown by your Elder Titan problem. I acknowledge that the Elder Titan might need a slightly higher CR, but I think that you can add a lot of abilities to a high HD creature without increasing its CR by anything. For example, let us assume a 100 HD Outsider. Adding "fireball" as an at will SLA will do nothing for its CR. To clarify a bit more, to a 50 HD fey, Spell-Like Abilities: At will—alter self, detect thoughts, displacement, freedom, greater dispelling, heal, greater invisibility, knock, speak with plants, spell turning, greater teleport, water breathing. may be worth a +1 CR at most. Apply that same thing to a 5HD creature, and its challenge rating will increase far more vastly. This is why I'm not sure that system is a good idea.
hawkinsthedm 06-18-07, 07:02 PM	I see your point Witch. Other than noting that it doesn't seem to work (which I agree that it doesn't seem to; even though I am keeping my hopes up on my leShay template--I want to pit it against a Paragon of the same ECL and see how it does), do you know of any systems that do work?
SpawnOfMorgoth 06-18-07, 08:08 PM	arent LeShay fey? LeShay just are (were?). They do not even have an advancement scheme, so they only use their own 'monster' class IF someone wanted to and got the green light to play one...
GAMBLE_d13 06-20-07, 06:52 AM	They advance by Class this is shown by Anaka the Guildmaster of the Garrote who is a High Level LeShay, but shhh if she finds out we know we're dead ;) My stance on ECL HD and LA is, Wizards is retarded... how can CR NOT be related to Level? A 20th Level Wizard is a CR 20, so another CR 20 monster should be Level 20, no matter what its HD are. It doesn't make sense to work it any other way, what's good for the goose is good for the gander right? All this said, I acknowldge that a Wizard 20 is under rated (ie: their CR should be higher), this said, I give most monsters an ECL of CR +2 to +6, their HD be damned. The variation is because I don't believe that Wizards of the Coast always get the CR of a monster right (take a look at Dragons for a good example). Hope this Helps. Cheers.
Witch 06-20-07, 09:46 AM	My stance on ECL HD and LA is, Wizards is retarded... how can CR NOT be related to Level? A 20th Level Wizard is a CR 20, so another CR 20 monster should be Level 20, no matter what its HD are. It doesn't make sense to work it any other way, what's good for the goose is good for the gander right? All this said, I acknowldge that a Wizard 20 is under rated (ie: their CR should be higher), this said, I give most monsters an ECL of CR +2 to +6, their HD be damned. The variation is because I don't believe that Wizards of the Coast always get the CR of a monster right (take a look at Dragons for a good example). Hope this Helps. Cheers. You need to get your facts straight about what ECL means and what CR means. You also need to get your facts straight on the difference in wealth for an ECL 20 and a CR 20. After you've checked those out, you can try calling WotC retarded again. You'll not be able to do so, ofcourse - not with any sort of justification. All you could do is say they estimate some things badly.
ArochanoX 06-20-07, 11:04 AM	I once figured out a (quite complex) system that calculates the LA quite accurately. First give gp value for each and every ability the creature has. For example a creature that has a +2 bonus on strenght, would cost 4000 gp. Then add the costs together to get a total gp value of the creature's abilities and divide the gp cost by 5 to get a xp cost. Then look at the table in phb to see how much experience points a character at certain level would have. If a race had 3000 xp (15 000gp) worth of abilities, it would be a LA +2 creature since you need 3000 xp to get to 2nd level. Note that this works only for templates!!! I've not yet figured the "cost" of different hit dice. You could work out a cost of your LeShay template Hawkings to see if it gives a LA that roughly is the same as per your formula, I'd guess that both of our "systems" are good and work fairly well.
Balthanon 06-20-07, 12:07 PM	Note that this works only for templates!!! I've not yet figured the "cost" of different hit dice. You could work out a cost of your LeShay template Hawkings to see if it gives a LA that roughly is the same as per your formula, I'd guess that both of our "systems" are good and work fairly well. Interesting idea-- I did something similar once, I believe, though it wasn't a direct gold correlation. Have you found this to compare fairly well with existing level adjustments? For the hit dice, I would probably try and utilize a few existing level adjustments that seem to be priced fairly for different hit die types and then see how they offset the "cost" of the level adjustment. (Either a direct reduction of the level adjustment or altering the gold cost, which could come out slightly differently.)
ArochanoX 06-20-07, 12:53 PM	Some LA:s ranging from +1 to +4 have worked out quite well. The margin of error has been fairly low (occasional +-1), but that's because I don't have gp estimations for regeneration, different creature types, proficiencies etc etc. That I've noticed that one feat is roughly 1000 gp. :D
bluemage55 06-20-07, 03:51 PM	That I've noticed that one feat is roughly 1000 gp. :D Not at all true, if you've read Arms and Equipment and done some extrapolating here and there. One feat is worth 10,000 gp, with an additional +10,000 gp per feat prerequisite. Epic feats are worth 100,000 gp, with an additional +100,000 gp per epic feat prerequisite and +10,000 gp per non-epic feat prerequisite. Stackable feats require that you pay for each prior application as a prerequisite with each additional feat, and they do not stack with existing applications you may have. Certain feats should not be allowed by magic items because they are covered by existing magic items. Improved Natural Armor, for example, should not, because natural armor pricing already exists. The same goes for the Great (ability) feats, Armored Skin, and some others.
rob_douglas 06-20-07, 05:18 PM	They advance by Class this is shown by Anaka the Guildmaster of the Garrote who is a High Level LeShay, but shhh if she finds out we know we're dead ;) I think he was referring to the fact that "officially" they don't advance by class. There is no advancement given - it says "Advancement: None" under the LeShay. I use By class as well. My stance on ECL HD and LA is, Wizards is retarded... how can CR NOT be related to Level? A 20th Level Wizard is a CR 20, so another CR 20 monster should be Level 20, no matter what its HD are. It doesn't make sense to work it any other way, what's good for the goose is good for the gander right? No, not really. Again, the difference is in how dangerous an opponent is to fight, and how useful it is to have in a party. Greater Teleport at will is somewhat useful in a fight, but in general, it can't be used every round and will eventually have no effect on whether or not the creature is defeated. But a PC who can do that has huge advantages in every aspect of the game. Heal or any cure spell at will is also not a big deal for monsters you fight - so you have to do more hp damage to them. But for a PC - every single party member and cohorts are always fully healed before every encounter. Continuous True Seeing - not a big deal in a single encounter - it counters the invisible caster and rogue for once - but on a PC - every illusion in the dungeon is foiled. Dragon breath weapon and flight - way more useful to a PC than in a single encounter. On and on. CR is specifically a measure of how high a group of 4 adventurers, composed of a fighter, cleric, rogue, and wizard will have to be to be able to take it on. ECL is a measure of how powerful the rest of the party needs to be so that you won't take all the fun out of the game for them because you are better at everything than they are. A 20-HD Dragon has more skills than a rogue 20, more attacking ability than the fighter 20, more maneuverability than anyone, and can still cast spells, and breath every 1-4 rounds for decent damage at no risk to himself. He better be considered higher than 20th level. First give gp value for each and every ability the creature has. For example a creature that has a +2 bonus on strenght, would cost 4000 gp. Then add the costs together to get a total gp value of the creature's abilities and divide the gp cost by 5 to get a xp cost. Then look at the table in phb to see how much experience points a character at certain level would have. That is a good way to see relative power levels, but it could be a bit off. The first problem is what about HD. In general, HD that are not class HD don't offer any special abilities, so they should get some of their special abilities for "free". If you add them all up, then you really should add up class features that PCs get to see how even they are. Am I making sense? A 20-HD outsider with no special abilities shouldn't be 20th level, because he is slightly better than a warrior or expert then. But of the Balor's many special properties, I am not sure how many he should get for free before you say that is 20th level, and the rest of these abilities are jacking you up to higher and higher ECL. But it is a good measure of "ECL power" since it measures in a PC-centric way. How good would it be to have magic items that did the same thing? Cool. ROB
hawkinsthedm 06-20-07, 07:58 PM	I once figured out a (quite complex) system that calculates the LA quite accurately. First give gp value for each and every ability the creature has. For example a creature that has a +2 bonus on strenght, would cost 4000 gp. Then add the costs together to get a total gp value of the creature's abilities and divide the gp cost by 5 to get a xp cost. Then look at the table in phb to see how much experience points a character at certain level would have. If a race had 3000 xp (15 000gp) worth of abilities, it would be a LA +2 creature since you need 3000 xp to get to 2nd level. Note that this works only for templates!!! I've not yet figured the "cost" of different hit dice. You could work out a cost of your LeShay template Hawkings to see if it gives a LA that roughly is the same as per your formula, I'd guess that both of our "systems" are good and work fairly well. Using your system and bluemage55's feat values, I came up with the following: +15 Weapon (2) 9,000,600 Quickdraw 10,000 Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting 130,000 Polygot 100,000 +10 Str 1,000,000 +34 Dex 11,560,000 +26 Con 6,760,000 +22 Int 4,840,000 +12 Wis 1,440,000 +36 Cha 12,960,000 +20 Insight Bonus to AC 1,000,000 +5 Natural Armor 50,000 Immunity to Disease 7,400 Immunity to Poison 27,000 Low-Light Vision 6,000 SR 42 300,000 Gaze (charm monster, mass) 240,000 DR 15/epic and cold iron 400,000 +10 ft to speed 1,000 detect thoughts 112,000 disguise self 56,000 displacement 168,000 freedom 504,000 dispel magic, greater 336,000 heal 336,000 invisibility, greater 224,000 knock 112,000 speak with animals 168,000 spell turning 392,000 teleport, greater 392,000 water breathing 168,000 fast healing 10 (vigor, greater) 120,000 Total 43,889,400 gp 43,889,400 / 5 = 8,777,880 xp A lvl 42 PC has an xp total of 873,000. That would place the template at LA +42. I think I will try this with the Paragon template as well. A LA of +42 seems a bit high.
ArochanoX 06-21-07, 12:43 AM	Thanks Hawkings for calculating all that! I'm really awed that somebody seriously used mine system :D detect thoughts 112,000 disguise self 56,000 displacement 168,000 freedom 504,000 dispel magic, greater 336,000 heal 336,000 invisibility, greater 224,000 knock 112,000 speak with animals 168,000 spell turning 392,000 teleport, greater 392,000 water breathing 168,000 These could be turned into a staff so the cost would be: freedom: 504,000 x 1 = 504,000 teleport, greater 392,000 x 0,75 = 294,000 spell turning 392,000 x 0,5 = 196 000 dispel magic, greater 336,000 x 0,5 = 168,000 heal 336,000 x 0,5 = 168,000 = 168,000 invisibility, greater 224,000 x 0,5 = 112,000 displacement 168,000 x 0,5 = 84,000 water breathing 168,000 x 0,5 = 84,000 speak with animals 168,000 x 0,5 = 84,000 knock 112,000 x 0,5 = 56,000 detect thoughts 112,000 x 0,5 = 56,000 disguise self 56,000 x 0,5 = 28,000 = 1,834,000 +10 Str 1,000,000 +34 Dex 11,560,000 +26 Con 6,760,000 +22 Int 4,840,000 +12 Wis 1,440,000 +36 Cha 12,960,000 I think you shouldn't use epic multiplier x10 here. So the abilities will be a total of 3,856,000. For a grand total of: +15 Weapon (2) 9,000,600 Quickdraw 10,000 Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting 130,000 Polygot 100,000 Ability bonuses 3,856,000 +20 Insight Bonus to AC 1,000,000 +5 Natural Armor 50,000 Immunity to Disease 7,400 Immunity to Poison 27,000 Low-Light Vision 6,000 SR 42 300,000 Gaze (charm monster, mass) 240,000 DR 15/epic and cold iron 400,000 +10 ft to speed 1,000 Spell-like abilities: 1,834,000 fast healing 10 (vigor, greater) 120,000 = 17,082,000 gp Total 43,889,400 gp I think that now the template will have significantly lower LA. Atleast I reduced the gp cost to almost 1/3... I don't have ELH or other material with me right now, so somebody else must check the estimated LA. There might be other places too from which could be saved money. Maybe removing the epic multiplier from LeShay weapons does the trick.
bluemage55 06-21-07, 02:46 AM	Using the pricing system, or any system, is not likely to yield the correct LA for most monsters. ECL is extremely complex, and some abilities which may be quite costly don't actually increase the effectiveness of a monster significantly (possibly because the monster will most often choose to use a different ability, etc.) and vice versa. In the end, the most effective way to calculate ECL is by eyeballing and then acid testing until you have a satisfactory number (rounding up or going with the higher numbers, just in case).
ArochanoX 06-21-07, 05:43 AM	You are perfectly correct. There though can be difficult situations. There are just a few templates that have higher than +5 LA, which makes comparsion to other templates difficult. There should be a system that offers *quite* accurate estimation of LA. Then it can be adjusted by acid-testing etc etc. There are numerous gaming systems that have no levels classes or anything like that. They can be balanced. Basically it should be possible to turn dnd into classless and levelless system.
bluemage55 06-21-07, 07:24 PM	They can be balanced. Basically it should be possible to turn dnd into classless and levelless system. I don't think this would be D&D anymore.
hawkinsthedm 06-22-07, 10:52 AM	I don't think this would be D&D anymore. LOL. Ya, I like BESM and the World of Darkness, but I do appreciate the leveling system of DnD. I do however believe that the rules set for DnD could be turned into a point based system. I just don't know if it should be. :)
hawkinsthedm 06-22-07, 10:54 AM	Does anybody have any mor accurate Ecl's for the creatures in the handbook? Specifically Atropal, Infernal, LeShay and Titan elder I think, in answer to your question Kane, no; no one really knows (possibly even Wizards doesn't).
Taeldrin Laesrash 06-22-07, 08:10 PM	LOL. Ya, I like BESM and the World of Darkness, but I do appreciate the leveling system of DnD. I do however believe that the rules set for DnD could be turned into a point based system. I just don't know if it should be. :) Definately not. If you did, you'd have something like GURPS Un-Lite.
Grandmaster_Kane 06-24-07, 11:53 AM	im am going to use them at there cr's to if they work out ok
rob_douglas 06-25-07, 10:27 AM	You are going to allow someone to play a Solar as a 22nd level character? Or a balor at 20th? Or a young adult Force Dragon as 28th level? I doubt anyone will want to play any form of "normal" character, as they will all be ridiculously less useful. At the very least, use their HD instead of CRs. But as always, as long as you are having fun.... ROB
hawkinsthedm 06-26-07, 01:09 AM	At the very least, use their HD instead of CRs. I have to agree with Rob. Then min ECL you should ever give a monster is equal to their HD.
Grandmaster_Kane 06-27-07, 03:57 AM	I have to agree with Rob. Then min ECL you should ever give a monster is equal to their HD. If i did that they would all be the same as there ones in the elh
rob_douglas 06-27-07, 09:36 AM	Pretty much - and why is that a problem? I still believe all of them should have some LA, but like I said, at a minimum the ECL should be equal to HD. Giving them a negative LA (such as going with CR would do) does not do justice to any of their abilities. But do what you want. If the players don't complain, then its fine. If everyone starts playing ELH monsters, and you are fine with that, then where's the harm. I just wanted to help you understand where the discrepancy comes from. Do you really think a Balor is a level 20 character? ROB
Grandmaster_Kane 06-27-07, 03:08 PM	Pretty much - and why is that a problem? I created this thread because i dont like the ecl's in the elh I still believe all of them should have some LA, but like I said, at a minimum the ECL should be equal to HD. Giving them a negative LA (such as going with CR would do) does not do justice to any of their abilities. But do what you want. If the players don't complain, then its fine. If everyone starts playing ELH monsters, and you are fine with that, then where's the harm. I just wanted to help you understand where the discrepancy comes from. Do you really think a Balor is a level 20 character? ROB Well so far everything is good. Everybody is a LeShay except for the black sheep who is a Infernal.