Efficient Item Creation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Efficient Item Creation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RazielK
08-13-07, 03:54 AM If I have the Forge Ring and Forge Epic Ring item creation feats and I take Efficient Item Creation, does it apply for both Epic and non-epic Rings or just one of the two?
BigGus
08-13-07, 10:16 AM Good question! I've always assumed it applies to both, as it makes no sense to me that someone could make epic items quickly but not non-epic ones, but now you ask, I can't find anywhere which actually specifies it.

Update: looking at the Forge Epic Ring entry in the ELH, it just says "you can forge magic rings that exceed the normal limits for such items". As far as I can see, it could just as well be called "Improved Forge Ring". I don't think it's a seperate item creation feat, just as Improved Heighten Spell isn't a seperate metamagic feat from Heighten Spell; it just allows you to do the same thing, but more so.

But if anybody knows better, please enlighten me.
RazielK
08-13-07, 10:11 PM Anyone else have an idea?
rob_douglas
08-14-07, 01:38 PM By the RAW, yes, they are separate feats. They are tagged as separate feats, and called Item Creation. So EIC only applies to either the non-epic or epic version, your choice.

This makes it either a lot easier to keep up with demand for basic magic items, or it gives you time to make a single epic one - which is all you can afford when you first take it. It helps keep the number of Epic items available down as well.

ROB
Salernodc
08-14-07, 02:03 PM It applies to both - having them separate makes little to no sense.
metalhawk
08-14-07, 02:59 PM We've always seen it as you have to take it once for each feat (as described - "pick an item creation feat"), so you need it for both the non-epic and epic versions.
BigGus
08-14-07, 07:54 PM Interesting to see that there doesn't seem to be any consensus on this one. (Two say both, two say just one).

By the RAW, yes, they are separate feats.

This may be a stupid question, but what's the RAW? I'm new here and it isn't in the dictionary of terminology.
DarkWalker
08-14-07, 08:05 PM RAW means Rules as Written

Edit: I also agree with Salernodc and thankfully, so does my DM.
BigGus
08-14-07, 08:34 PM Thanks DarkWalker!
metalhawk
08-15-07, 07:14 AM Interesting to see that there doesn't seem to be any consensus on this one. (Two say both, two say just one).

In all fairness, I should note that Rob is my DM, so our two should really be one :) (I hadn't refreshed when I replied to this thread, so I didn't see his post...)

I understand what you mean - it doesn't make much sense that you could take "Efficient Item Creation - Craft Epic Ring" and be able to craft a +6 ring much faster than usual, but not a +5...but it does appear to be the way the rules are written, as each of them is an "Item Creation Feat" and EIC specifically states "Pick an item creation feat".

Someone should ask wizards.
BillTheManiac
08-15-07, 09:21 AM Well, you would still take longer to craft the +6 then the +5 because of the x10 epic pricing modifier.
rob_douglas
08-15-07, 11:37 AM Right, it would bring the time to make epic items down to what would "normally occur" with item creation. The place where it would speed things up would be Craft Epic Staff, where you really could craft some faster than weaker versions of similar staffs.

Like I said, that's the rules as written. I know one guy that doesn't even use Epic item creation feats and let's any craft keep crafting even into epic, so YCMV (Your campaign may vary). House rules are fine - and may help to offset the power of Epic Spellcasting. I have to say my first thought on using EIC is to use it for getting lots of non-epic things fast. But our campaign rarely has 200 days off, so getting to make a +10 equivalent sword in 20 days would really help, more than getting to make a +6 enhancement sword in 72 days.

ROB
BigGus
08-19-07, 08:46 PM Right, it would bring the time to make epic items down to what would "normally occur" with item creation. The place where it would speed things up would be Craft Epic Staff, where you really could craft some faster than weaker versions of similar staffs.
ROB

It's not just staffs. Certain rings (such as a ring of wizardry) rods (such as a rod of rulership) and wondrous items (such as a mantle of spell resistance) could be made faster in their epic versions than the normal ones if EIC applied only to the epic feat.

In extreme cases an epic item could be made nearly 10 times as fast as a non-epic one. For example, a mantle of epic spell resistance 33 (210 000GP) could be made in 21 days, while a mantle of spell resistance 32 (200 000GP) would take 200 days.
bluemage55
08-20-07, 01:55 AM Rob is absolutely correct about the RAW. You would indeed have to take it once for epic and once for non-epic.

However, it would be sensible to allow the feat to apply to both, as this does not contribute a great deal of power to an already limited feat (a feat that has no combat effect, and with varying degrees of usefulness depending on the time constraints of the campaign).
Sylvaroth
09-29-07, 03:20 AM This may be a stupid question, but what's the RAW? I'm new here and it isn't in the dictionary of terminology.
It is in the d0t. At least in the one that's actually being maintained and updated.
Look here.
Dawnshadow
10-07-07, 01:37 PM It applies to only one feat.

Of course, the thing is.. to craft an Epic item, you use BOTH feats -- and what Efficient Item Creation does applies any time you use the feat. It's one of the details from EIC, and for Epic Magic Items.

EIC (epic feat): applies to epic items only
EIC (regular feat): applies to all items of that type, including epic

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RazielK 08-13-07, 03:54 AM	If I have the Forge Ring and Forge Epic Ring item creation feats and I take Efficient Item Creation, does it apply for both Epic and non-epic Rings or just one of the two?
BigGus 08-13-07, 10:16 AM	Good question! I've always assumed it applies to both, as it makes no sense to me that someone could make epic items quickly but not non-epic ones, but now you ask, I can't find anywhere which actually specifies it. Update: looking at the Forge Epic Ring entry in the ELH, it just says "you can forge magic rings that exceed the normal limits for such items". As far as I can see, it could just as well be called "Improved Forge Ring". I don't think it's a seperate item creation feat, just as Improved Heighten Spell isn't a seperate metamagic feat from Heighten Spell; it just allows you to do the same thing, but more so. But if anybody knows better, please enlighten me.
RazielK 08-13-07, 10:11 PM	Anyone else have an idea?
rob_douglas 08-14-07, 01:38 PM	By the RAW, yes, they are separate feats. They are tagged as separate feats, and called Item Creation. So EIC only applies to either the non-epic or epic version, your choice. This makes it either a lot easier to keep up with demand for basic magic items, or it gives you time to make a single epic one - which is all you can afford when you first take it. It helps keep the number of Epic items available down as well. ROB
Salernodc 08-14-07, 02:03 PM	It applies to both - having them separate makes little to no sense.
metalhawk 08-14-07, 02:59 PM	We've always seen it as you have to take it once for each feat (as described - "pick an item creation feat"), so you need it for both the non-epic and epic versions.
BigGus 08-14-07, 07:54 PM	Interesting to see that there doesn't seem to be any consensus on this one. (Two say both, two say just one). By the RAW, yes, they are separate feats. This may be a stupid question, but what's the RAW? I'm new here and it isn't in the dictionary of terminology.
DarkWalker 08-14-07, 08:05 PM	RAW means Rules as Written Edit: I also agree with Salernodc and thankfully, so does my DM.
BigGus 08-14-07, 08:34 PM	Thanks DarkWalker!
metalhawk 08-15-07, 07:14 AM	Interesting to see that there doesn't seem to be any consensus on this one. (Two say both, two say just one). In all fairness, I should note that Rob is my DM, so our two should really be one :) (I hadn't refreshed when I replied to this thread, so I didn't see his post...) I understand what you mean - it doesn't make much sense that you could take "Efficient Item Creation - Craft Epic Ring" and be able to craft a +6 ring much faster than usual, but not a +5...but it does appear to be the way the rules are written, as each of them is an "Item Creation Feat" and EIC specifically states "Pick an item creation feat". Someone should ask wizards.
BillTheManiac 08-15-07, 09:21 AM	Well, you would still take longer to craft the +6 then the +5 because of the x10 epic pricing modifier.
rob_douglas 08-15-07, 11:37 AM	Right, it would bring the time to make epic items down to what would "normally occur" with item creation. The place where it would speed things up would be Craft Epic Staff, where you really could craft some faster than weaker versions of similar staffs. Like I said, that's the rules as written. I know one guy that doesn't even use Epic item creation feats and let's any craft keep crafting even into epic, so YCMV (Your campaign may vary). House rules are fine - and may help to offset the power of Epic Spellcasting. I have to say my first thought on using EIC is to use it for getting lots of non-epic things fast. But our campaign rarely has 200 days off, so getting to make a +10 equivalent sword in 20 days would really help, more than getting to make a +6 enhancement sword in 72 days. ROB
BigGus 08-19-07, 08:46 PM	Right, it would bring the time to make epic items down to what would "normally occur" with item creation. The place where it would speed things up would be Craft Epic Staff, where you really could craft some faster than weaker versions of similar staffs. ROB It's not just staffs. Certain rings (such as a ring of wizardry) rods (such as a rod of rulership) and wondrous items (such as a mantle of spell resistance) could be made faster in their epic versions than the normal ones if EIC applied only to the epic feat. In extreme cases an epic item could be made nearly 10 times as fast as a non-epic one. For example, a mantle of epic spell resistance 33 (210 000GP) could be made in 21 days, while a mantle of spell resistance 32 (200 000GP) would take 200 days.
bluemage55 08-20-07, 01:55 AM	Rob is absolutely correct about the RAW. You would indeed have to take it once for epic and once for non-epic. However, it would be sensible to allow the feat to apply to both, as this does not contribute a great deal of power to an already limited feat (a feat that has no combat effect, and with varying degrees of usefulness depending on the time constraints of the campaign).
Sylvaroth 09-29-07, 03:20 AM	This may be a stupid question, but what's the RAW? I'm new here and it isn't in the dictionary of terminology. It is in the d0t. At least in the one that's actually being maintained and updated. Look here.
Dawnshadow 10-07-07, 01:37 PM	It applies to only one feat. Of course, the thing is.. to craft an Epic item, you use BOTH feats -- and what Efficient Item Creation does applies any time you use the feat. It's one of the details from EIC, and for Epic Magic Items. EIC (epic feat): applies to epic items only EIC (regular feat): applies to all items of that type, including epic