Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AtmaWeapon 07-31-07, 12:51 AM	(Spell is in quotes, as it's actually going to be a psionic power) So, here's the spell as I've laid it out based on how I understand it, if people could let me know where I made mistakes it'd be appreciated, first time I've had to do this. Items marked with a * are the ones that I figured seemed logical but I'd need to get approved of course, as they're ad-hoc. Blazing Cometfall Seed: Transport (DC 27) - Time Stop Effect(+8 DC) Seed: Energy (DC 19) - Emination[Area] (+ -- DC) - Increase to 10d6 (+16 DC) Seed: Destroy(DC 29) Factors: Change From Target to Area (+10 DC) Change to Bolt (10'x150') (+2 DC) Increase Area by 200% (+2 DC) Change cast time to Standard Action (+20 DC) Total: DC 133 Mitigating Factors: Ritual [10 casters contributing 3rd level slots] (-30 DC) Backlash 10d6 (-10 DC) Burn 1000xp (-10 DC) Within Specialist Discipline (Psychoportation->Transport) (-5 DC) *Ad-hoc limiting factor (must be cast from deck of airship at least 70ft high) (-5 DC) * Ad-hoc reduce duration to 1/1200 normal (-12 DC) Total DC: 61 Description: The caster rends time itself to simulate a blazing comet crashing to the ground. The caster abruptly and violently teleports forward, ripping apart the molecules of air and any matter in the path of his teleportation. This process inflicts 20d6 points of damage to any creature caught in the path, and any creatures killed by this damage are reduced to piles of smoking ash. The caster, however, also suffers 10d6 points of damage under the strain of the spell. The agitation of the air in this manner causes any oxygen to spontaneously ignite and burn for 10 rounds, causing 10d6 points of fire damage to anything remaining in the path. The caster remains in an accelerated timeframe for a brief period of time after teleporting, allowing them to act for 5 rounds of apparent time. During these rounds, you cannot affect other creatures in any way in the same manner as that generated by a Time Stop spell.
bluemage55 07-31-07, 07:13 AM	You need to add a "Change from target to area" factor (+10 DC) to get the destroy seed to affect everything in its path. Increasing area by 200% is +8 DC. Your first ad-hoc should probably grant -8 DC instead, as it is a limited circumstance like the let go of me spell. Your second ad-hoc seems like poorly-veiled attempt to get something for nothing. Your final DC would be 86.
AtmaWeapon 07-31-07, 08:34 PM	You need to add a "Change from target to area" factor (+10 DC) to get the destroy seed to affect everything in its path. So I need to take the factor two times, one for destroy and one for energy? Increasing area by 200% is +8 DC. Miscommunication on my part, I just wanted to make it a 20x300 (from 10x150) instead, so I ment 100% Your first ad-hoc should probably grant -8 DC instead, as it is a limited circumstance like the let go of me spell. Ok. Your second ad-hoc seems like poorly-veiled attempt to get something for nothing. Really? You don't think cutting from 20 hours to 10 rounds is worth anything? I kinda thought that -1 for each 1/100th seemed fair. Are there any actual rules for reducing the duration besides +2 for dismissable? I'm not finding anything. The path burning for 20 hours isn't really what I was going for with this, and seeing as it is sacrificing potential power from the energy seed it seemed like it should be worth something.
bluemage55 08-01-07, 08:07 AM	So I need to take the factor two times, one for destroy and one for energy? No. Energy already affects an area. Really? You don't think cutting from 20 hours to 10 rounds is worth anything? I kinda thought that -1 for each 1/100th seemed fair. It's not. Compared to the regular use of energy for 10d6 damage, you basically get to deal it for 10 rounds for a paltry +4 DC (+16 DC to increase emanation damage back up, -14 for your crazy mitigation factor). Are there any actual rules for reducing the duration besides +2 for dismissable? I'm not finding anything. The path burning for 20 hours isn't really what I was going for with this, and seeing as it is sacrificing potential power from the energy seed it seemed like it should be worth something. You could make it a regular energy seed, dealing instantaneous damage in a bolt. That's how you trade duration for damage (or more accurately, untrading damage for duration). Otherwise, just set the duration to 10 rounds, with no reduction of DC.
Karsus the Mad 08-04-07, 12:24 PM	The spell utilizes the destroy seed. It's already Instantaneous since when you combine seeds, you use the shortest duration, and destroy has an Instantaneous duration.
bluemage55 08-05-07, 02:04 AM	The spell utilizes the destroy seed. It's already Instantaneous since when you combine seeds, you use the shortest duration, and destroy has an Instantaneous duration. That's not true. Like the damnation spell, the spell should have different durations for the different effects.
Karsus the Mad 08-05-07, 03:21 AM	That's not true. Like the damnation spell, the spell should have different durations for the different effects. Combining Durations: When combining two or more seeds to develop an epic spell, the seed with the shortest duration determines the duration of the finished epic spell. If any seed of an epic spell is dismissible by the caster, the epic spell is dismissible. The damanation spell is incorrect within the rules for combining durations. There's also another example, Ioulaum's longevity, which has an instaneous destroy effect, and a permanent (stacking no less) fortify age extension. They're still incorrect within the rules presented (however, if the DM allows such things, it's all good:P). Allowing a mitigating factor for something technically incorrect to begin with sounds more like trying to get something for nothing imo. The burning scenario (being represented with the energy seed), going by the description of the spell, seems more like a result of the rapid transportation effect of the spell, rather than the effect of the spell itself. As such, merely including the energy seed is enough, and prolly doesn't require any factors/mitigating factors of it's own. Just my opinion of course. There's also two transport effects going on. One is transportation to the destination (initial effect). Since it's simulating rapid transportation through the same plane, there should be a +2, since the base use of the seed uses the astral plane to transport, and changing the transportation medium to the "same plane" would be +2. The time stop effect is a seperate effect of the transport seed, requiring a second application of the seed with +8.
bluemage55 08-05-07, 03:54 AM	For the purposes of the combining duration clause, instantaneous is actually considered the longest duration, meaning that if an instantaneous seed is combined with a non-instantaneous one, the instantaneous duration is not used. All the epic spells that combine instantaneous and non-instantaneous durations are as follows (we'll leave out damnation because it's kind of an oddball with the split durations): demise unseen, eclipse, eidolon, origin of speices: achaierai. As you can see, none of them have instantaneous durations.
Karsus the Mad 08-05-07, 04:33 AM	I added create living vault, as it's weird to:) create living vault instantaneous animate: 20 rounds fortify: 20 hours make permanent??? Here they've used the permanent factor to create an intantaneous effect. demise unseen instantaneous slay: intantaneous animate dead: instantaneous delude: concentration + 20 hours The only one you mentioned that actually follows the Combined Duration rules. It is instantaneous. eclipse 8 hours conjure: 8 hours transport: instantaneous keep disk in place for 8 hours (ad hoc +10 DC). Ecplise has a specific Ad-Hoc factor noting 8 hours, which is the same as the conjure seed. Coincidence, or one of the game designers actually read their own rules, and decided that in this instance, instantaneous can't be used, so creates an ad-hoc to bypass the Combined Duration rules? eidolon 8 hours conjure: 8 hours transform: permanent transport: instantaneous This one seemed arbitrary. This is the only spell that actually does what you say about "instantaneous is considered longest duration", which I've never heard before, but makes sense I suppose. See Proctiv's Move Mountain below tho'. origin of species permanent conjure: 8 hours life: instantaneous fortify: 20 hours They use the permanent factor to create a dispellable race. Well, it's sorta messy like the living vault spell. Conclusion: The rules say one thing, the designers obviously don't read them too often, since the list of spells we're using has had to be errata'd:P Especially since some of those are also ignoring this rule 2 Seeds that already have an instantaneous or permanent duration cannot be increased. Another example is Proctiv's Move Mountain, from Player's Guide to Faerun. It uses transform (permanent), Transport (instantaneous), and includes the Permanent factor to make the spell permanent. If intantaneous was indeed the longest duration, that wouldn't happen. Of course, making an instantaneous effect permanent is also not possible. I'm using it to show as an example that instantaneous is considered, at least by some of the designers, shorter than permanent, rather than as the longest duration. Starshine Upon the People, in the same book, is also another dual duration spell, with instantaneous and 20 hours, so ehhhhh, it's doable :P
bluemage55 08-05-07, 07:38 AM	Another example is Proctiv's Move Mountain, from Player's Guide to Faerun. It uses transform (permanent), Transport (instantaneous), and includes the Permanent factor to make the spell permanent. If intantaneous was indeed the longest duration, that wouldn't happen. Of course, making an instantaneous effect permanent is also not possible. I'm using it to show as an example that instantaneous is considered, at least by some of the designers, shorter than permanent, rather than as the longest duration. Starshine Upon the People, in the same book, is also another dual duration spell, with instantaneous and 20 hours, so ehhhhh, it's doable :P Adding in sources from outside of the SRD makes things more difficult, as you get more rule-breaking once that happens. But yes, I understand your basic point, which is that not even the designers follow the rules. That said, I feel that in many cases the split duration makes more sense (and also prevents the "Guess I'll add the destroy seed to my buff to make it instantaneous!!!" junk). I feel that the shortest duration prevails clause makes sense only for combining seeds with actual timed duration. Whe mixing seeds of different duration types (not just times, but types), it just gets ugly.
Kyuketsukiouji 08-05-07, 12:58 PM	In Epic Spells, Instantaneous is the longest duration (longer than permanent), not the shortest.
Karsus the Mad 08-05-07, 09:00 PM	Adding in sources from outside of the SRD makes things more difficult, as you get more rule-breaking once that happens. Yeah, I know, but it's me :P I like being as broad as possible. But yes, I understand your basic point, which is that not even the designers follow the rules. Yep, that's my primary point. That said, I feel that in many cases the split duration makes more sense (and also prevents the "Guess I'll add the destroy seed to my buff to make it instantaneous!!!" junk). I actually have to agree with you. I made my first call without reading the description of the OP's spell. I went purely on the calculations. Bad mistake on my part, I know, but you responded with such an interesting tidbit, I just couldn't help myself:) I feel that the shortest duration prevails clause makes sense only for combining seeds with actual timed duration. Whe mixing seeds of different duration types (not just times, but types), it just gets ugly. That makes sense to me. Have you done work in this regard in your 3.5 SRD ideas? It's a pretty interesting situation I think, and could use some more tweaking than what is presented in the RAW. Either way, I think it makes more sense than what there is at the moment. In Epic Spells, Instantaneous is the longest duration (longer than permanent), not the shortest. Hmmm...I'm feeling this sharp pain behind my left eye...right here;) Please show me where that's an actual rule (I could be missing it, my eyesight isn't what it used to be when I was flinging vengeful gazes of god all over the place:P). Actually, show me where that's actually suggested at all and I'll accept it, since Bluemage has made me already partial to the idea. Is there some new FAQ or eratta I'm unaware of? Or perhaps an assumption based on some other rule? Anyway, that's been said already by Bluemage55. Eidolon, in the SRD supports that idea. However, there are also two published epic spells which show the exact opposite thinking (demise unseen and proctiv's move mountain). The rest either have a specific ad-hoc factor, or an illegal use of the permanent factor.
Holy_Beholder 08-05-07, 09:29 PM	Miscommunication on my part, I just wanted to make it a 20x300 (from 10x150) instead, so I ment 100% Thats an increase of 300%. 20x300 is 6,000; 10x150 is 1500. 1500x4=6000 therefore 6000 is 400% of 1500, and 400%-100%(what you start with) is 300%