Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fenrir423 04-19-08, 01:48 PM	When a Druid's Animal Companion goes above 20 hit die, do its base attack and saves use the epic bonuses or continue at the same rate? Since Dragons have a Fighter's progression and their BAB seem to always equal their character level it would seem to keep to the same formula, but I can't find enough high hit die animals to reverse engineer their development.
Kain_Darkwind 04-19-08, 03:19 PM	When a Druid's Animal Companion goes above 20 hit die, do its base attack and saves use the epic bonuses or continue at the same rate? Since Dragons have a Fighter's progression and their BAB seem to always equal their character level it would seem to keep to the same formula, but I can't find enough high hit die animals to reverse engineer their development. Animals (and anything else using racial HD) keep the same progression above 20 HD as they do pre-epic progression. Essentially, you ignore any racial HD when calculating to see if you use epic attack bonus. So a 20th level frost giant fighter doesn't use epic attack bonus, a 21st level frost giant fighter does. For proof, take a look at the legendary animals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/legendaryAnimal.htm#legendaryBear) in the SDA. The legendary tiger with 26 HD has a BaB of +19. That is .75 x 26. Had it been using epic attack bonus, it would have had a BaB of +18. (20 x .75) + (6 x .5)
runestar 04-20-08, 04:31 AM	While I disagree with Kain as to when epic progression rules kick in for creatures sporting both racial HD and class lvs, he is indeed correct that racial HD alone never triggers epic bab/save progression.:)
Kain_Darkwind 04-20-08, 04:45 AM	While I disagree with Kain as to when epic progression rules kick in for creatures sporting both racial HD and class lvs, he is indeed correct that racial HD alone never triggers epic bab/save progression.:) Go take a look at the frost giant jarl. Then the Draconomicon prestige classes, with their full attack bonuses despite requiring at least 21 HD for several of them. And then finally observe the eldritch giant confessor. Three sources, all in agreement with me. Which sample creatures agree with your method?
runestar 04-20-08, 06:50 AM	Three sources, all in agreement with me. Which sample creatures agree with your method? Gerti - the frost giant runecaster in the ELH statblock (at least, it appears to use the epic progression rules to the best of my calculations), the sarrukh cleric from serpent kingdoms and Ghiz'kith (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rp/20040714a). Though I admit that just about every other source I know of (like dragons of faerun) uses your rule as well. Likewise, page25 of the ELH states that epic progression rules kick in for monster PCs when their character lv exceeds 20. The FAQ (page3) defines character lv as racial HD+class lvs. Conversely, the FAQ clarifies that the dragon prcs in draconomicon are meant to be special exceptions to the normal epic progression rules. Are the epic rules for advancement by prestige classes different for dragons? Some prestige classes for dragons in Draconomicon effectively require the dragon to be epic but still list base attack bonus and base save progressions. Are those values used instead of the epic attack and save bonus progressions described in the Dungeon Master’s Guide? And if so, does this let dragon characters (or half-dragon characters) break the normal limit of base attack and save bonuses? The prestige classes in Draconomicon are special exceptions to the normal limits on base attack and save bonuses listed in the Dungeon Master’s Guide. While they are designed for monsters, any character of the dragon type who meets the prerequisites is technically allowed to take levels in these classes, and thus exceed the normal limit on base attack and save bonuses. Admitably, I do not like my interpretation one bit, because that rule screws over monsters with racial HD that grant crappy bab (3/4 or worse, such as giants, fey and undead). For example, a cloud or storm giant with class lvs will never get that 4th attack, while a fey or undead needs to have at least 32 racial HD before they can afford to take that 1st class lv. But hey, I don't write the rules, I just do my best to interpret them in this case.:P
Fenrir423 04-20-08, 02:09 PM	Animal Companions above 20 HD qualify for epic feats, don't they? Or is that another one of those grey areas?
Kain_Darkwind 04-20-08, 02:14 PM	Gerti - the frost giant runecaster in the ELH statblock (at least, it appears to use the epic progression rules to the best of my calculations), the sarrukh cleric from serpent kingdoms and Ghiz'kith (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rp/20040714a). Though I admit that just about every other source I know of (like dragons of faerun) uses your rule as well. Likewise, page25 of the ELH states that epic progression rules kick in for monster PCs when their character lv exceeds 20. The FAQ (page3) defines character lv as racial HD+class lvs. Conversely, the FAQ clarifies that the dragon prcs in draconomicon are meant to be special exceptions to the normal epic progression rules. Admitably, I do not like my interpretation one bit, because that rule screws over monsters with racial HD that grant crappy bab (3/4 or worse, such as giants, fey and undead). For example, a cloud or storm giant with class lvs will never get that 4th attack, while a fey or undead needs to have at least 32 racial HD before they can afford to take that 1st class lv. But hey, I don't write the rules, I just do my best to interpret them in this case.:P Gerti has epic classes that grant her 1/2 attack bonus (the runecaster), so she wouldn't show any difference either way. Serpent Kingdom allowed Pun-Pun with their terrible rules. ;) And Ghiz'Kith is not in an actual book. I see where you are coming from, which is a result of 1) epic not being important enough to WotC to sit down and decide how they are going to do it and 2) conflicting information being given in explanation and example. But because of that very issue with giants not getting more attacks, I've chosen to go the route that a) makes sense and b) has the most core examples defining the situation. Oh, also note that if a fey has 8 HD or under, they can also take fighter (or any full BaB class) levels and get their 4th attack.
runestar 04-20-08, 08:27 PM	Gerti has epic classes that grant her 1/2 attack bonus (the runecaster), so she wouldn't show any difference either way. Not true. Runecaster is a 3/4 bab class. By your rule, she should have a bab of +16 (+10 from 14 giant HD, +3 from 5 lvs of cleric, +3 from 4 lvs of runecaster), for a final attack bonus of +24 when we factor in her +9 str mod and -1 size modifier for being large, which should in turn, give her 4 attacks (but she only has 3). However, her stat block shows her having an attack bonus of just +23/+18/+13, which conforms to the epic progression rules (+10 from 14 giant HD, +3 from 5 cleric lvs, character lv20 when 1st lv of runecaster is taken, and epic bab kicks in for the remaining 3 lvs, for +2 ebab). This gives her +13bab and +2ebab, for a final attack bonus of +23 after adding in her +9 str mod and -1 size modifier. There is also an issue with your current interpretation - what happens when monsters enter epic prcs straight away? These classes do not possess bab/save progression. What do you do if a suitably powerful monster, such as an advanced titan or something, were to enter the legendary dreadnought or union sentinal prc? How would you determine their bab/save progression, since by your take, epic progression rules would not kick in yet since they do not have more than 20 class lvs?:confused:
Kain_Darkwind 04-20-08, 11:46 PM	Not true. Runecaster is a 3/4 bab class. Heh. Oops. The Red Wizard table is right below the Runecaster and illustration, I was looking at it instead. By your rule, she should have a bab of +16 (+10 from 14 giant HD, +3 from 5 lvs of cleric, +3 from 4 lvs of runecaster), for a final attack bonus of +24 when we factor in her +9 str mod and -1 size modifier for being large, which should in turn, give her 4 attacks (but she only has 3). However, her stat block shows her having an attack bonus of just +23/+18/+13, which conforms to the epic progression rules (+10 from 14 giant HD, +3 from 5 cleric lvs, character lv20 when 1st lv of runecaster is taken, and epic bab kicks in for the remaining 3 lvs, for +2 ebab). This gives her +13bab and +2ebab, for a final attack bonus of +23 after adding in her +9 str mod and -1 size modifier. Right. I totally agree with your math, and the mistake with the Red Wizard table is the only reason I suggested differently. Gerti begins using epic attack bonus at 21 total HD. That said, Gerti is from a 3.0 source, the later two giants (frost giant jarl and eldritch giant confessor) are from 3.5 and as such are considered to be current and up to date. There is also an issue with your current interpretation - what happens when monsters enter epic prcs straight away? These classes do not possess bab/save progression. What do you do if a suitably powerful monster, such as an advanced titan or something, were to enter the legendary dreadnought or union sentinal prc? How would you determine their bab/save progression, since by your take, epic progression rules would not kick in yet since they do not have more than 20 class lvs?:confused: By the rules, I would simply assume that all epic PrCs have a BaB progression of poor and save progression of good when applying them to a creature with racial HD and lacking 20 class levels. Me personally, I'd decide whether or not the class would have had a better BaB (legendary dreadnaught=full BaB) and apply it normally. There are issues regardless of which way you do it, because WotC decided that "epic is different". But my way doesn't rob certain types of a fourth attack and meshes with more sample characters than the other way.