Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gastoff 03-23-07, 08:37 AM	I have been growing an archer from 1st level for the past 4 years and he is now only 2,000 XP from hitting Epic; I've only had to deal with the pesky Wind Wall spell once. However, now that my group is nearly all Epic, I fear my character will see many more enemies with Infinite Deflection or the ability to cast Wind Walls galore. How can any archer compete with such simple defenses? I feel like WoTC is severly hampering any ranged-focused players by not offering anyways to counter such things as Deflect Arrows and Wind Wall. No opposed rolls, no spells to penetrate the Walls, etc. This seems as broken as creating a 4th level spell called "Wind Shield" that deflects all melee attacks harmlessly. What can an archer do to not be thwarted so easily? If needed, my stats can be found here: http://d20forge.com/contribution/display.html?id=1509
runestar 03-23-07, 09:22 AM	Not that many enemies are really in a position to qualify for infinite deflection that readily, so it shouldn't come up that often. As for wind wall, I would just tie down with my dm not to utilize it that often, or ask the mage to help dispel it.
Gastoff 03-23-07, 09:31 AM	I also play the mage, so I dont plan on having too many difficulties with the Wind Wall issue, but it still disturbs me on how simple they have made it to negate ranged attacks completely.
Yodasatomicweed 03-23-07, 11:25 AM	You could develop an epic spell that allows the archer to ignore the effects of Wind Wall. As for Infinite Deflection...well, if it's by the feat, you're pretty much screwed unless you can catch them flatfooted or w/e. If it's by the shield, you may be able to get away with using Brilliant Energy ammo, as technically it passes through armour. I don't know if it would work, but it's a strategy I've heard before.
Gastoff 03-23-07, 11:32 AM	An Epic Spell would definitly work, but why develop an Epic Ranger Spell (they have those?!) just to counter a 4th level Wizard spell...still seems quite broken. But either way, my DM will be suspicious if I go asking him for more offensive abilities...he already shakes his head when I dish out my 3 auto crits in a round with d10 for damage and a x5 crit...asking for Epic Spells might be the Straw that breaks the camel's back...
Starmage21 03-23-07, 11:53 AM	There are creatures that pretty much completely negate at least 1 person's ability to fight. The point of the epic game is that epic characters should be able to find there way past even impossible obstacles. some epic creatures are completely immune to magic, making your blasty spellcasters completely useless. You could develope your own buff spell or epic feat that allows you to bypass defensive missile buffs like the Wind Wall, Wind Shield, Protection from Arrows and Reflect Arrows spells(maybe even Prismatic Sphere!). Maybe an epic feat to defeat at least partially Infinite Deflection epic feat. In addition, most archer builds are ranger, rogue, or fighter based. When you cross a foe with Infinite Deflection, you should be able to close to melee and still be a contributing member of the party without putting yourself in too much danger. ...now you know why Legolas carried melee weapons!
Yodasatomicweed 03-23-07, 12:54 PM	Yea, but the guy said he was the mage as well, so an epic spell to negate that shouldn't be too hard to manage, although I just noticed we're all retarded. Spell Immunity, a 4th level spell. The warded creature is immune to the effects of one specified spell for every four levels you have. The spells must be of 4th level or lower. The warded creature effectively has unbeatable spell resistance regarding the specified spell or spells. Naturally, that immunity doesn’t protect a creature from spells for which spell resistance doesn’t apply. Wind Wall is subject to spell resistance, so there you go, buy yourself a constant effect item of Spell Immunity for about 84,000 gp (I may be off on that slightly), and maybe get the price reduced by a bit if it only guards against Wind Wall and can't be changed to guard against any other spell.
Kalis Atrud 03-23-07, 02:02 PM	Yea, but the guy said he was the mage as well, so an epic spell to negate that shouldn't be too hard to manage, although I just noticed we're all retarded. Spell Immunity, a 4th level spell. Wind Wall is subject to spell resistance, so there you go, buy yourself a constant effect item of Spell Immunity for about 84,000 gp (I may be off on that slightly), and maybe get the price reduced by a bit if it only guards against Wind Wall and can't be changed to guard against any other spell. There is no way that Wind Wall should be affected by Spell Immunity in the way you think. It creates an upward flow of air at a specific location, all the SR should do is allow you to pass through unharmed(ie. no blowing your skirts and kilts up), your arrows should follow the effects of the spell as normal.
SlanderPanic 03-23-07, 02:04 PM	Get suppression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#suppression) arrows. If your DM doesn't allow psionics, it's easy enough to come up with magical versions. As for someone with Infinite Deflection, don't bother shooting him directly. Bring down the ceiling above him. Destroy the ground beneath him. Use arrows with area-effects and herd him into your melee guys. Get creative.
bluemage55 03-23-07, 06:03 PM	For wind walls, all you can do is dispel them, or move to an angle where they won't block you. Against Infinite Deflection, teleporting away and using Distant Shot and a high Spot check and/or divinations is a good way to catch the opponent unaware (which renders them incapable of deflecting).
Balthanon 03-23-07, 06:27 PM	Yea, but the guy said he was the mage as well, so an epic spell to negate that shouldn't be too hard to manage Why spend hundreds of thousands of gold and experience to create an epic spell when a 5th or 6th level wizard spell would probably do just as well against Wind Wall? Outside of the fact that there are concrete rules for developing epic spells anyway-- working with your DM may be the easier route here though. (Infinite Deflection is a more difficult matter and probably should require an Epic Spell to negate, since it is an epic feat.)
Loren Pechtel 03-23-07, 11:54 PM	Something I'm wondering about infinite deflection--what about an enchantment to make your arrows invisible? If he can't see it coming he can't deflect it!
Chanmanm8 03-24-07, 12:45 AM	Something I'm wondering about infinite deflection--what about an enchantment to make your arrows invisible? If he can't see it coming he can't deflect it! another idea: shifting to a coexisting plane (shadow, ethereal, or astral) so you can still attack them but the spell would have less chance affecting you (unless they use the Transdimensional metamagic feat).
Lotusblossom 03-24-07, 01:12 AM	If your archer is epic level, you should have enough movement to use shoot-and-scoot tactics against a foe who uses Wind Wall -- unless he casts 3 or 4 of them and stays in place, in which case one quick Dispel Magic negates all of them. The only type of foe gaining much benefit from Wind Wall would be a ranged caster, which your melee companions could dispatch easily.
tridiak 03-24-07, 10:42 PM	Brilliant Energy arrows may work. Wind Wall is non-living. Or create a spell which is cast on arrows specifically designed to counter wind wall (virtual weight, air "immunity", super speed)
one_eyed 03-25-07, 11:52 AM	anti-magic arrows?
CelestialBarbarian 03-25-07, 02:11 PM	These are all very good suggestions! On the thread I started here for a 3.5 master of the order of the bow, someone suggested giving the master a class ability that allows his arrows to bypass a wind wall. I remembered that the arcane archer already has a phase arrow ability that might work. I was just looking at the description of the spell, and so far as movement goes, it says only "Tiny and Small flying creatures cannot pass through the barrier." So I don't see why an archer can't simply step through it.
Gastoff 03-26-07, 01:10 AM	Thanks for all the suggestions, especially the one about invisible arrows... Im sure I can work something out to get an enhancement on my bow that allows my arrows to be invisible, but game mechanics could be difficult. Maybe they only allow me to catch people unaware for purposes of the Deflection feat tree? Arguing that I would catch all targets flatfooted since they cannot see the attack (or allowing for Sneak Attack if appropriate) would be over powerful. I will talk with my DM and work something out along these lines. Thanks for all the suggestions!
Yodasatomicweed 03-26-07, 09:58 AM	Have a use-activated Invisibility spell on your bow. 3 x 2 x 2,000 = 12,000 gp, which seems a little low. So, let's change it to Greater Invisibility, so that noone can make the arguement that shooting the arrow from the bow causes it to become visible (it's an attack, technically). So...4 x 7 x 2,000 = 54,000. That seems somewhat reasonable. As for not catching people flatfooted but still denying them the ability to deflect it, maybe argue that people can still see an arrow is being fired, and thus are aware of an attack, but they just can't see where exactly it's going, so they can't deflect it.
CelestialBarbarian 03-26-07, 10:30 AM	Um, so I notice that the past several posts have address the Infinite Deflection problem and avoided mentoning wind wall. Does that mean we're all agreed that the archer can simply walk through it? :P
Yodasatomicweed 03-26-07, 10:42 AM	That, and it can be dispelled, and one could argue that Spell Immunity works against it as well. And you can move to where it doesn't affect you.
bluemage55 03-26-07, 12:42 PM	Spell immunity doesn't work. Spell resistance (including the unbeatable kind you get from spell immunity)protects you from the direct effects of being blown away by the wind wall. It does not, however, apply to your ammunition. If you somehow had arrows that have SR or spell immunity, then you can get past it that way, but generally this is not the case. And yes, you can simply walk through it, assuming you're not in gaseous form.
Loren Pechtel 03-26-07, 01:00 PM	Thanks for all the suggestions, especially the one about invisible arrows... Im sure I can work something out to get an enhancement on my bow that allows my arrows to be invisible, but game mechanics could be difficult. Maybe they only allow me to catch people unaware for purposes of the Deflection feat tree? Arguing that I would catch all targets flatfooted since they cannot see the attack (or allowing for Sneak Attack if appropriate) would be over powerful. I will talk with my DM and work something out along these lines. Thanks for all the suggestions! I would say it would only work against deflection, arrow-grabbing and like things. You know you are under attack even if you can't see the arrow, it wouldn't say you're flat-footed.