Epic BAB query. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Epic BAB query. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CantripN
08-20-07, 11:31 AM Question: Since EPIC BaB is gained at the same rate no matter what your class is, can you take a level in a class that requires 23 BaB at the same level you gain it? The example is the Legendary Dreadnought (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClasses/legendaryDreadnought.htm). Can it first be taken at level 25 or 26?
archerpwr
08-20-07, 11:48 AM Question: Since EPIC BaB is gained at the same rate no matter what your class is, can you take a level in a class that requires 23 BaB at the same level you gain it? The example is the Legendary Dreadnought (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClasses/legendaryDreadnought.htm). Can it first be taken at level 25 or 26?

26. At 25 you hit the bab prereqs. Feats, but not prestige classes can be qualified for at the level you take them.
rob_douglas
08-20-07, 04:59 PM Right. While you will have a BAB of +23 at 25th level, you don't actually have that BAB until you take class, so you can't take LD or Divine Emissary at 25th. You have to take something else and get them at 26th.

ROB
LordBOB777
08-20-07, 06:38 PM a BAB related question:

Does anyone think it would be a good idea to let non full BAB classes advance and be able to pick up their extra attacks?

3/4's BAB classes wouldnt pick up their 4th and final base attack untill about 30.

And the poor wizards and other mages wouldnt get 4 full attacks untill WAY up there. This would at least give the other classes something to look forward to.

Does anyone think this would be game breaking?
archerpwr
08-20-07, 08:16 PM LordBob: not in the slightest, although the full babs may feel bad when the incantrix buffs into a monster and melees with them at level 40.
runestar
08-20-07, 10:42 PM Does anyone think it would be a good idea to let non full BAB classes advance and be able to pick up their extra attacks?

3/4's BAB classes wouldnt pick up their 4th and final base attack untill about 30.

I think wotc did say that it was pointless, since 3/4 bab classes are unlikely to hit with their 4th attack anyways, so it generally just ends up being a waste of time.

Clerics still have divine power, so it is moot for them.
bluemage55
08-21-07, 09:24 AM I think wotc did say that it was pointless, since 3/4 bab classes are unlikely to hit with their 4th attack anyways, so it generally just ends up being a waste of time.

That's not at all true, especially if your goal is just to swing a vorpal weapon as many times as possible to go for a natural 20.

Having that 4th attack with PTWF means that your odds go up considerably.
rob_douglas
08-21-07, 11:15 AM Not to mention that a Cloud Giant fighter by the RAW only gets 3 attacks, but a Fire Giant or Frost, or even Hill Giant or Ogre Fighter can get 4 attacks eventually. I have house-ruled that you still get bonus attacks based on BAB+EAB. A straight wizard would get 3 at 21st, and 4 at 31st.

ROB
LordBOB777
08-21-07, 11:44 AM good discussion so far.

I think that every class should be able to get up tp 4 attacks.

Sure that might make the full BAB classes feel left out cause they arent gaining much, but by the time you reach the high 30's to low 40's that extra attack shouldnt be your only concern at the moment.
bluemage55
08-21-07, 12:53 PM Sure that might make the full BAB classes feel left out cause they arent gaining much, but by the time you reach the high 30's to low 40's that extra attack shouldnt be your only concern at the moment.

They're gaining plenty.

Full BAB classes are compensated with faster bonus feat progression.
archerpwr
08-24-07, 10:44 PM They're gaining plenty.

Full BAB classes are compensated with faster bonus feat progression.

Since when?
Eldridch knight: every 4
Incantrix: every 3
Frenzied berserker: every 3
Loremaster: every three
Barbarian: every 4
Druid: every 4
Monk: every 5
Wizard: every 3
Cleric: every 3
Paladin: every 3

That's off the top of my head. Except for fighter, the casters don't seem to fall behind (druid being the exception), and they come out ahead of monk no matter what.
runestar
08-24-07, 11:10 PM It is a bit odd that eldritch knight gets only 1 epic feat every 4 lvs when its epic progression is little better than a wizard (both just get caster lv increases, and I don't believe that +1 average hp each lv warrants that slower epic feat progression, not when the wizard could just compensate by taking epic toughness every few lvs).

Full BAB classes are compensated with faster bonus feat progression.

You haven't seen the hathran epic feat progression, have you? Full spellcasting progression, and a bonus epic feat every 2 lvs...:D
archerpwr
08-25-07, 12:06 AM It is a bit odd that eldritch knight gets only 1 epic feat every 4 lvs when its epic progression is little better than a wizard (both just get caster lv increases, and I don't believe that +1 average hp each lv warrants that slower epic feat progression
What do you think of the progression I'm using for my swiftblade?
Bonus feat every four levels, swift surge improves every three levels, no more lost CLs.
bluemage55
08-27-07, 12:23 PM Since when?
Eldridch knight: every 4
Incantrix: every 3
Frenzied berserker: every 3
Loremaster: every three
Barbarian: every 4
Druid: every 4
Monk: every 5
Wizard: every 3
Cleric: every 3
Paladin: every 3

That's off the top of my head. Except for fighter, the casters don't seem to fall behind (druid being the exception), and they come out ahead of monk no matter what.

Faster relative to their other abilities, of course.

When part of a class's strengths comes from a feature that no longer improves, they are compensated by haveing a faster progression than they otherwise would have.

Out of the full BAB base classes, all of the classes besides fighter also get significant progression of other abilities, compared to the spellcasters getting only spellcasting.

The ranger and paladin both get ability progression on top of spellcasting.

The barbarian gets the equivalent of the Damage Reduction epic feat every 3 levels, more rages/day, and better trap sense, on top of its epic feat progression.
archerpwr
08-27-07, 07:24 PM Faster relative to their other abilities, of course.

Guess I misunderstood. I thought you meant full bab classes give faster epic feat progression than poor bab classes.
Legdiwena
08-29-07, 06:56 PM It's against RAW to give 4th attack to 3/4 class. Your BAB bonus never goe sup after 20. It's an Epic Attack Bonus, not BAB. Iterative attacks come from BAB, not the modifiers to it.
rob_douglas
08-30-07, 10:13 AM I don't think I understand your response Legdiwena. We all know that 3/4 BAB classes don't get 4 attacks by the RAW - the question was whether ignoring RAW in this case as a house rule was a bad idea. I don't think it makes much difference and that it is not. And actually makes more sense in the case of high Hit Dice giant fighters, etc.

ROB
Legdiwena
09-06-07, 01:30 PM Missed where it was talking about a house rule,oops.
Sol_Aedh_Avoth
09-06-07, 02:09 PM By the way, I have another question about Epic BAB:

A Lv 20 Fighter has a BAB of 20, and thus, as a Full Attack action, he may do 4 Attacks (20/15/10/5 plus modifiers)...
Fine...

A Lv 20 Wizard has a BAB of 10, and thus, as a Full Attack action, he may do 2 Attacks (10/5 plus modifiers)...
Fine...

Then, both of them, from Lv 21 on, they only get the +1 Epic bonus every 2 levels, even if they switch to different classes...

NOT FINE!

A character who arrives at Lv 20 Fighter and then switches to Wizard in the Epic levels, at level 40 will have a 30 BAB (20 normal+10 Epic) and can make 4 Attacks, while a character who arrives at Lv 20 Wizard and then switches to Fighter in the Epic levels, at level 40 will have a 20 BAB (10 normal+10 Epic) and can make only 2 Attacks... he will never gain the other 2 Attacks that a Lv 20 Fighter-like class will grant... isn't that unfair? Is there really no way to get the other 2 Attacks?

Same goes for Cleric-like classes (but they at least lose 1 only attack)...
Legdiwena
09-06-07, 02:12 PM Tenser's Transformation
BillTheManiac
09-06-07, 02:17 PM Tenser's Transformation

Works for clerics. Not for mages, they must sacrifice their spellcasting.
Sol_Aedh_Avoth
09-06-07, 02:17 PM Tenser's Transformation
Yes, but I meant permanently...:P
Legdiwena
09-06-07, 02:20 PM Bribe DM to let you buy it with a feat?
BillTheManiac
09-06-07, 04:51 PM Bribe DM to let you buy it with a feat?

See certain "go up a level" cards in the "Munchkin" game (hint: they involve bribing the DM). The cards are in there because a certain descriptor related to the name of the game applies to those who do that.
rob_douglas
09-06-07, 06:21 PM By the way, I have another question about Epic BAB:
Isn't that the same question we were discussing. If you don't like it, house rule it. In general, a wizard is not going to switch to become a melee class post-epic, so this isn't a big deal.

Don't forget, the W20/F20 has a better Will save, but the F20/W20 has a better Fort save.

If you want, you can always let them reconfigure their pre-epic class ordering to change saves and BAB to be more what they want. In the above case, the character should really be into a PrC for both full BAB and casting (Eldritch Knight) pre-epic, and you could allow a Wish to reconfigure the order of classes if you need to.

ROB
runestar
09-06-07, 10:46 PM UMD a wand of divine power or something.:P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CantripN 08-20-07, 11:31 AM	Question: Since EPIC BaB is gained at the same rate no matter what your class is, can you take a level in a class that requires 23 BaB at the same level you gain it? The example is the Legendary Dreadnought (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClasses/legendaryDreadnought.htm). Can it first be taken at level 25 or 26?
archerpwr 08-20-07, 11:48 AM	Question: Since EPIC BaB is gained at the same rate no matter what your class is, can you take a level in a class that requires 23 BaB at the same level you gain it? The example is the Legendary Dreadnought (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClasses/legendaryDreadnought.htm). Can it first be taken at level 25 or 26? 26. At 25 you hit the bab prereqs. Feats, but not prestige classes can be qualified for at the level you take them.
rob_douglas 08-20-07, 04:59 PM	Right. While you will have a BAB of +23 at 25th level, you don't actually have that BAB until you take class, so you can't take LD or Divine Emissary at 25th. You have to take something else and get them at 26th. ROB
LordBOB777 08-20-07, 06:38 PM	a BAB related question: Does anyone think it would be a good idea to let non full BAB classes advance and be able to pick up their extra attacks? 3/4's BAB classes wouldnt pick up their 4th and final base attack untill about 30. And the poor wizards and other mages wouldnt get 4 full attacks untill WAY up there. This would at least give the other classes something to look forward to. Does anyone think this would be game breaking?
archerpwr 08-20-07, 08:16 PM	LordBob: not in the slightest, although the full babs may feel bad when the incantrix buffs into a monster and melees with them at level 40.
runestar 08-20-07, 10:42 PM	Does anyone think it would be a good idea to let non full BAB classes advance and be able to pick up their extra attacks? 3/4's BAB classes wouldnt pick up their 4th and final base attack untill about 30. I think wotc did say that it was pointless, since 3/4 bab classes are unlikely to hit with their 4th attack anyways, so it generally just ends up being a waste of time. Clerics still have divine power, so it is moot for them.
bluemage55 08-21-07, 09:24 AM	I think wotc did say that it was pointless, since 3/4 bab classes are unlikely to hit with their 4th attack anyways, so it generally just ends up being a waste of time. That's not at all true, especially if your goal is just to swing a vorpal weapon as many times as possible to go for a natural 20. Having that 4th attack with PTWF means that your odds go up considerably.
rob_douglas 08-21-07, 11:15 AM	Not to mention that a Cloud Giant fighter by the RAW only gets 3 attacks, but a Fire Giant or Frost, or even Hill Giant or Ogre Fighter can get 4 attacks eventually. I have house-ruled that you still get bonus attacks based on BAB+EAB. A straight wizard would get 3 at 21st, and 4 at 31st. ROB
LordBOB777 08-21-07, 11:44 AM	good discussion so far. I think that every class should be able to get up tp 4 attacks. Sure that might make the full BAB classes feel left out cause they arent gaining much, but by the time you reach the high 30's to low 40's that extra attack shouldnt be your only concern at the moment.
bluemage55 08-21-07, 12:53 PM	Sure that might make the full BAB classes feel left out cause they arent gaining much, but by the time you reach the high 30's to low 40's that extra attack shouldnt be your only concern at the moment. They're gaining plenty. Full BAB classes are compensated with faster bonus feat progression.
archerpwr 08-24-07, 10:44 PM	They're gaining plenty. Full BAB classes are compensated with faster bonus feat progression. Since when? Eldridch knight: every 4 Incantrix: every 3 Frenzied berserker: every 3 Loremaster: every three Barbarian: every 4 Druid: every 4 Monk: every 5 Wizard: every 3 Cleric: every 3 Paladin: every 3 That's off the top of my head. Except for fighter, the casters don't seem to fall behind (druid being the exception), and they come out ahead of monk no matter what.
runestar 08-24-07, 11:10 PM	It is a bit odd that eldritch knight gets only 1 epic feat every 4 lvs when its epic progression is little better than a wizard (both just get caster lv increases, and I don't believe that +1 average hp each lv warrants that slower epic feat progression, not when the wizard could just compensate by taking epic toughness every few lvs). Full BAB classes are compensated with faster bonus feat progression. You haven't seen the hathran epic feat progression, have you? Full spellcasting progression, and a bonus epic feat every 2 lvs...:D
archerpwr 08-25-07, 12:06 AM	It is a bit odd that eldritch knight gets only 1 epic feat every 4 lvs when its epic progression is little better than a wizard (both just get caster lv increases, and I don't believe that +1 average hp each lv warrants that slower epic feat progression What do you think of the progression I'm using for my swiftblade? Bonus feat every four levels, swift surge improves every three levels, no more lost CLs.
bluemage55 08-27-07, 12:23 PM	Since when? Eldridch knight: every 4 Incantrix: every 3 Frenzied berserker: every 3 Loremaster: every three Barbarian: every 4 Druid: every 4 Monk: every 5 Wizard: every 3 Cleric: every 3 Paladin: every 3 That's off the top of my head. Except for fighter, the casters don't seem to fall behind (druid being the exception), and they come out ahead of monk no matter what. Faster relative to their other abilities, of course. When part of a class's strengths comes from a feature that no longer improves, they are compensated by haveing a faster progression than they otherwise would have. Out of the full BAB base classes, all of the classes besides fighter also get significant progression of other abilities, compared to the spellcasters getting only spellcasting. The ranger and paladin both get ability progression on top of spellcasting. The barbarian gets the equivalent of the Damage Reduction epic feat every 3 levels, more rages/day, and better trap sense, on top of its epic feat progression.
archerpwr 08-27-07, 07:24 PM	Faster relative to their other abilities, of course. Guess I misunderstood. I thought you meant full bab classes give faster epic feat progression than poor bab classes.
Legdiwena 08-29-07, 06:56 PM	It's against RAW to give 4th attack to 3/4 class. Your BAB bonus never goe sup after 20. It's an Epic Attack Bonus, not BAB. Iterative attacks come from BAB, not the modifiers to it.
rob_douglas 08-30-07, 10:13 AM	I don't think I understand your response Legdiwena. We all know that 3/4 BAB classes don't get 4 attacks by the RAW - the question was whether ignoring RAW in this case as a house rule was a bad idea. I don't think it makes much difference and that it is not. And actually makes more sense in the case of high Hit Dice giant fighters, etc. ROB
Legdiwena 09-06-07, 01:30 PM	Missed where it was talking about a house rule,oops.
Sol_Aedh_Avoth 09-06-07, 02:09 PM	By the way, I have another question about Epic BAB: A Lv 20 Fighter has a BAB of 20, and thus, as a Full Attack action, he may do 4 Attacks (20/15/10/5 plus modifiers)... Fine... A Lv 20 Wizard has a BAB of 10, and thus, as a Full Attack action, he may do 2 Attacks (10/5 plus modifiers)... Fine... Then, both of them, from Lv 21 on, they only get the +1 Epic bonus every 2 levels, even if they switch to different classes... NOT FINE! A character who arrives at Lv 20 Fighter and then switches to Wizard in the Epic levels, at level 40 will have a 30 BAB (20 normal+10 Epic) and can make 4 Attacks, while a character who arrives at Lv 20 Wizard and then switches to Fighter in the Epic levels, at level 40 will have a 20 BAB (10 normal+10 Epic) and can make only 2 Attacks... he will never gain the other 2 Attacks that a Lv 20 Fighter-like class will grant... isn't that unfair? Is there really no way to get the other 2 Attacks? Same goes for Cleric-like classes (but they at least lose 1 only attack)...
Legdiwena 09-06-07, 02:12 PM	Tenser's Transformation
BillTheManiac 09-06-07, 02:17 PM	Tenser's Transformation Works for clerics. Not for mages, they must sacrifice their spellcasting.
Sol_Aedh_Avoth 09-06-07, 02:17 PM	Tenser's Transformation Yes, but I meant permanently...:P
Legdiwena 09-06-07, 02:20 PM	Bribe DM to let you buy it with a feat?
BillTheManiac 09-06-07, 04:51 PM	Bribe DM to let you buy it with a feat? See certain "go up a level" cards in the "Munchkin" game (hint: they involve bribing the DM). The cards are in there because a certain descriptor related to the name of the game applies to those who do that.
rob_douglas 09-06-07, 06:21 PM	By the way, I have another question about Epic BAB: Isn't that the same question we were discussing. If you don't like it, house rule it. In general, a wizard is not going to switch to become a melee class post-epic, so this isn't a big deal. Don't forget, the W20/F20 has a better Will save, but the F20/W20 has a better Fort save. If you want, you can always let them reconfigure their pre-epic class ordering to change saves and BAB to be more what they want. In the above case, the character should really be into a PrC for both full BAB and casting (Eldritch Knight) pre-epic, and you could allow a Wish to reconfigure the order of classes if you need to. ROB
runestar 09-06-07, 10:46 PM	UMD a wand of divine power or something.:P