Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rob_douglas 04-08-07, 02:27 PM	HI All OK, this has been a sticking point for me and my group for a while. It sometimes interferes with our suspension of disbelief, so I wanted to get the community's opinions. This is an epic role-playing question. What do your characters do with downtime, and how often do they get it? IMC, the party are a bunch of do-gooders in a bad world. So there is always some evil to fight. It makes it hard to "take a vacation". They have dozens of plot hooks and unfollowed threads since we started campaigning at 1st level - 11 years ago (2E, 3E, 3.5E, and anemic XP granting from me. :) ) So the first challenge is finding a way to weave a break into the storyline, making epic characters take a break from adventuring. But they ask, what could be so important as to take attention away from all the evil going on around? They need the break, because what they really need is time to Craft Magic Items. But only the cleric NPC has crafting feats. They also commission items as well, and need time to wait for them to be ready. I have been using the cooperative crafting rules so that at least some of the time the person gaining the item is involved, but what about the rest of the time? Wizards can always study new spells, and there is some research to be done at the Library on the bad guys, but often it is the crafters who are also ideal to that task. So what tasks keep Epic non-wizard, non-crafters busy when they are not "on-stage" adventuring? (I have a half-dragon fighter, paladin, sorcerer-monk, and ranger IMC). ROB
Balthanon 04-08-07, 02:46 PM	So what tasks keep Epic non-wizard, non-crafters busy when they are not "on-stage" adventuring? (I have a half-dragon fighter, paladin, sorcerer-monk, and ranger IMC). ROB While it isn't technically required by the rules, there is always training and acquiring their next abilities. Maybe they need to research and develop that next epic fighter feat that they are planning on taking (or if you're willing, actually work on developing a new feat with rules similar to spell creation or epic spell creation). Other alternatives are maybe they go off to take care of personal business while the group isn't otherwise occupying them. Because it is individual, you wouldn't follow the whole "adventure", but you could have flashes of the solo quests so the players feel they are accomplishing things. Maybe the half-dragon fighter has to go help their mother defend her eggs from a small group of evil dragon hunters. Or even research his family if he's not familiar with it. The paladin might be assigned a quest that doesn't require the might of the full group, but still requires attention. The sorcerer-monk might need to meditate and center himself to maintain his powers or search out extraplanar beings to bargain with per the training rules mentioned in the DMG. The ranger, if he has a territory he is associated with, might need to patrol it and make sure that everything is okay within it-- possibly putting down a few lesser nests of evil that dared invade while he was otherwise occupied. Overall, there is probably plenty for them to be doing, it just won't necessarily be quite along the same lines mechanically as crafting. (Of course, this is all just ideas-- I don't think we've ever actually had much "downtime" in my own campains or those I've played in. :))
Yue Ryong 04-08-07, 03:11 PM	The only games even close to epic I've ever played, the only downtime we got we spent most of it exploring tunnels underneath the city, robbing houses and taking potshots at the army laying siege. Yes, our characters spent their holidays exactly what they do 'on the clock'. They need to relax more.
NoldorForce 04-08-07, 03:21 PM	When in doubt, make a pocket plane using the arcane version of Genesis. Make sure to tweak the Time trait to be much faster than normal. That way you can get precisely as much downtime as you (or your party, who can stay off the plane if they wish) need.
bluemage55 04-08-07, 07:05 PM	Genesis does not specify that you can manipulate planar traits of the demiplane, only environmental factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain.
Alias 04-09-07, 11:24 AM	Don't your PCs have side things going on? Like, aren't they involved in creating/training guilds, or politics, or shops, or anything? That's what we do in our downtime - spread the wealth around, make contacts/gather information (possibly relating to our next goal), research spells, make magic items, build power points (something that's pretty well unique to our campaign), or simply kick back and relax for a few days/weeks.
inspectr88 04-09-07, 11:54 AM	There doesn't have to be any in-game effects of downtime. In roleplay-heavy campaigns, I could see people planning out where they live, work, etc etc. In not-so-roleplay-heavy campaigns, they just "take a bit of time off". If you're somewhere in the middle, choose what you do (ie. work in an Inn for room and board, work alongside the blacksmith, hunt). As for the do-gooders in an evil world, work it into an adventure. The party finds a large village who's been taken control of by an overzealous fighter. Party kills the bad guy, takes out his lackeys, and then the village is happy and offers said party a house, if they'd like. Party stays for a bit, builds up relationships, takes a bit of downtime to prepare for something bigger while protecting the village. Just spoutin' off ideas here.
metalhawk 04-09-07, 11:54 AM	Don't your PCs have side things going on? Like, aren't they involved in creating/training guilds, or politics, or shops, or anything? That's what we do in our downtime - spread the wealth around, make contacts/gather information (possibly relating to our next goal), research spells, make magic items, build power points (something that's pretty well unique to our campaign), or simply kick back and relax for a few days/weeks. Those are some good ideas, I think those are the kinds of things we need to do. Typically, in our campaign, nope. We're always about 1 step behind on rushing out to save someone or something from great evil :) Rob
NoldorForce 04-09-07, 01:40 PM	Genesis does not specify that you can manipulate planar traits of the demiplane, only environmental factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain.It doesn't specify one way or the other. The time trait, however, is one of the plane's physical traits, and would potentially fall under the ability to manipulate the plane's environment. (You're monkeying with space, so why not time as well?) And it's not really that game-breaking, anyway, unlike some other things that pop up even before epic levels. "Planar traits" in this case is an inappropriate term, as that's what the text on planes uses to refer to the entirety of a plane's properties.
bluemage55 04-09-07, 01:51 PM	It doesn't specify one way or the other. The time trait, however, is one of the plane's physical traits, and would potentially fall under the ability to manipulate the plane's environment. (You're monkeying with space, so why not time as well?) And it's not really that game-breaking, anyway, unlike some other things that pop up even before epic levels. The spell specifies clearly what environmental factors can be changed: environmental factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. The burden of proof is on showing that something is allowed by a spell, not what is not allowed. It is indeed unbalancing to allow control over planar traits, as this creates a significantly more powerful fortress than would otherwise be possible. Note also that most deities cannot apply planar traits; only greater deities can. This would seem to indicate that the manipulation of planar traits is a powerful ability.
Alias 04-10-07, 12:34 PM	As for the do-gooders in an evil world, work it into an adventure. The party finds a large village who's been taken control of by an overzealous fighter. Party kills the bad guy, takes out his lackeys, and then the village is happy and offers said party a house, if they'd like. Party stays for a bit, builds up relationships, takes a bit of downtime to prepare for something bigger while protecting the village. That's basically what we do - our DM makes sure to get us a base of some sort (a manor, a house, whatever) by the time we're 10th level or so, so we have someplace to hang out between adventures. Typically, in our campaign, nope. We're always about 1 step behind on rushing out to save someone or something from great evil. Take some time to stop and smell the roses! :D What are you going to do when there's no one that needs saving, or no big evils to smite? But seriously, it's nice to take downtime between episodes of saving the world - it allows for character development and lets the PCs take control of their fates, to some extent. And it's always good for the DM to slip in a hook for further adventures. :cool:
rob_douglas 04-10-07, 01:36 PM	That's exactly my point, I wanted to know what others do to handle the downtime. Crafting and researching are "easy" ways to spend the time, because they don't account for much in terms of role-playing. The crafter is just out of it all. I think maybe part of the problem is my tendency to want to give them a chance to interact with the whole world in meaningful ways, and that is not easy to do without playing out downtime. They have a castle to protect, and I have taken to saying "You fight off an invasion" but there are still questions, especially as there are epic level bad guys on the side of the opposing army - didn't they participate in the attacks? If so - we really have to play it out. And besides, there is not much of an army on either side that could stand against the epic characters. So there is a lot of hand-waving. The Paladin wants to go to nearby cities, use all her healing on the poor, and convert a bunch of people to follow her god. And with a +34 Diplomacy check she will turn a few into fanatical followers. How carefully should I really monitor the number and types of followers? She did not take Leadership, so we aren't going through those numbers, luckily. I guess I was wondering how much in-person, in-game effort do others put into activities that would not be considered "adventure worthy"? And what do your players enemies do while all this is going on - do they just leave them alone for a month or 3 at a time? Isn't there a war going on somewhere? ROB
Balthanon 04-10-07, 05:15 PM	I guess I was wondering how much in-person, in-game effort do others put into activities that would not be considered "adventure worthy"? And what do your players enemies do while all this is going on - do they just leave them alone for a month or 3 at a time? Isn't there a war going on somewhere? ROB While it wasn't during epic levels, some of the most enjoyable roleplaying opportunities during my campaign have been what most would consider "downtime". Particularly when it comes to finding a trainer that can provide what that prestige class that they're looking for or when they're in the process of joining an organization and have to go through some individual test. I haven't had any players really begrudge the time that is spent on an individual, as for enemies-- they don't have many overt long term enemies. They have a tendency to be used by those they might be considered to oppose than the opposite. In fact, thinking on it, at the moment all of the people who really want to kill them are more or less good aligned and on different Material Planes. :P
Alias 04-11-07, 12:11 PM	While it wasn't during epic levels, some of the most enjoyable roleplaying opportunities during my campaign have been what most would consider "downtime". Particularly when it comes to finding a trainer that can provide what that prestige class that they're looking for or when they're in the process of joining an organization and have to go through some individual test. Done that. In our last campaign, as a matter of fact, one of the PCs wanted to join an assassins' guild, and he was given several tasks to accomplish - one of them being to kill a target. Even though the rest of us weren't there and couldn't help, it was interesting to watch him stumble through it (he was a relatively new player). Our group does as much RP as combat, so finding stuff to do in downtime (for us or the DM) isn't really hard - the mage wants to do some research on the Black Legion of Mok (who we ran into a couple adventures back), so she goes to the library, talks to some folks there, and digs through the books. The DM gives her a few scraps of information and lets her draw her own conclusions. Meanwhile the fighter and the rogue are going to the bar to get drunk and maybe start a fight; the DM decides there's some really big, really ugly guy there who's more than happy to oblige them. And, of course, the Watch gets involved... :D They have a castle to protect, and I have taken to saying "You fight off an invasion" but there are still questions, especially as there are epic level bad guys on the side of the opposing army - didn't they participate in the attacks? If so - we really have to play it out. And besides, there is not much of an army on either side that could stand against the epic characters. So there is a lot of hand-waving. Wow... if our DM hand-waved an attack on our castle, we'd be ******. Course, our DM also has a semi-system for handling mass combat... he determines a number of foes each member of the party has to defeat each "round" (meaning each cycle of combat, not a literal round); depending on how we do, it shifts the tide of combat. I don't know all the particulars of it, because he's never written it down, but that's the basics. But really, a castle siege could be a good one or two sessions - not all of it's combat; you've got espionage (getting someone into the opposing camp to spy on them), RP (trash-talking, negotiations, duels between individuals) and of course, combat. By hand-waving it, you're doing yourself and the players a disservice. The Paladin wants to go to nearby cities, use all her healing on the poor, and convert a bunch of people to follow her god. And with a +34 Diplomacy check she will turn a few into fanatical followers. How carefully should I really monitor the number and types of followers? See, there's a prime opportunity for a hook right there - some of those followers could indeed be fanatics. The paladin goes to the city, does her thing, and leaves; a few months later she and her friends hear about this group of religious fanatics that's preaching about whatever and generally causing trouble. They go to check it out - and find out it's some of those people the paladin's been converting. Course, if you don't want to be that RBDMish, just say that the paladin gets 1 new convert per 5 points of her check, and 1/10 of those are fanatics. The other cities, I would assume, have temples of the faith, so those converted are taken care of by the priests there. If there aren't temples, have the paladin hire workers to build them, and appoint people to be priests and such. They don't HAVE to be followers or anything - they can just be loyal to the paladin, which gives her and her friends an advantage when they go to those cities - they have people they can go to when they need help. And what do your players enemies do while all this is going on - do they just leave them alone for a month or 3 at a time? Isn't there a war going on somewhere? I don't DM, so I can't really say for sure on that count, but I'm sure enemies have plans too. We generally take long downtime after a major enemy's been defeated, so we don't have to worry about what he's doing while we're carousing/crafting/researching, but we've had minions pop up during shorter downtimes, too, just as a way to keep the tension going.
rob_douglas 04-11-07, 11:39 PM	I think I am not explaining my issue well. I don't have a problem with coming up with hooks for the party to follow, or adventure ideas. I have a problem with giving these Epic characters tasks that CAN be hand-waved in order to advance the timeline to cover the time spent crafting, and researching by other characters. They have so many hooks they want to follow that do require the concerted effort of the whole group, that I feel it strains credulity that they basically keep going from one adventure to the next. The paladin isn't asking to role-play out a whole month of converting, and we do role-play some of those, but she wants a realistic idea of how successful she has been and what the impact on the world has been when we finish session 1 and come back for session 2 with "2 Months later..." One thing I have thought of doing is filling them in on threads and hooks that they never had time to follow up on when they were lower level, and either having one of them be described as having led the adventure, or hiring those who did - like they were once hired. A barroom brawl was interesting at 6th level, but at Epic level, in a world where they are truly at the top of the stack, I feel it would be a waste of time to spend any of our precious face-time going over things like that, when they need to: recover their friend's lost soul from Baalzebul, stop an evil overlord from finding an artifact that will make him a god, recover the 3rd part of the regalia of evil might so that they can set up a trade with the evil champion who has the 3rd part of the regalia of good (they have the other two), actually then fight the evil champion, stop a demilich from becoming one with all undead everywhere, all while staying far enough away from a demigod to keep from getting smited by him and his many epic cohorts, and avoiding a cadre of assassins looking to kill them, and free the imprisoned god of entropy who will unmake the multiverse. (Don't worry about reading this Rob - I don't think I gave away anything you didn't know.... ;)) I was just looking for ideas to answer the question: How do you spend your days when you are not Epic Adventuring? What trivial or menial tasks do Epic characters participate in? I did handwave one attack on the castle, but not the first time it was attacked. The first we played out, and then I told them later - the same kind of thing happens every few days, or weeks - thousands of goblins and a few demons, and the epic spellcasters that stay out of reach and bombard you. As long as the characters are available to provide defense, we don't need to play out exactly how many on each side get killed each time this happens - again, every few days or weeks - and neither side is yet ready for the real Epic vs. Epic showdown. That will come - when one side or the other actually thinks they can win - I think right now neither is sure, so they are playing it cautious. In the meantime, many minions die, and we don't need to waste time counting the bodies.... ;) ROB
bluemage55 04-12-07, 01:50 AM	I have epic characters spend their downtime on training, crafting, making money, and running their empires.
Alias 04-12-07, 11:45 AM	I think I am not explaining my issue well. I don't have a problem with coming up with hooks for the party to follow, or adventure ideas. I have a problem with giving these Epic characters tasks that CAN be hand-waved in order to advance the timeline to cover the time spent crafting, and researching by other characters. They have so many hooks they want to follow that do require the concerted effort of the whole group, that I feel it strains credulity that they basically keep going from one adventure to the next. Ohh... I see what you're saying now. Hmm. Well... I gave a suggestion for the paladin already. And now that you've explained the attacks on the castle, I'd have to agree - hand-wave them. If the Forces of Evil and constantly attacking their keep, the PCs' people should be sufficiently experienced to deal with them, especially if it's just goblins and a few demons. One thing I have thought of doing is filling them in on threads and hooks that they never had time to follow up on when they were lower level, and either having one of them be described as having led the adventure, or hiring those who did - like they were once hired. I like that idea. Do PCs act as patrons for anyone? Presumably they have henchmen and such, right? Send some of them off to deal with the threads and hooks, and have them report back later: "Mission accomplished, sir! It was rough, but I beat that ogre chieftain down and took his treasure. Check out this shiny sword I found!" I'm not sure what to suggest for the others to do besides the obvious (magic items and spell research), though. Sorry. :(
Balthanon 04-12-07, 12:51 PM	One thing I have thought of doing is filling them in on threads and hooks that they never had time to follow up on when they were lower level, and either having one of them be described as having led the adventure, or hiring those who did - like they were once hired. ROB That is kind of what I was thinking with my suggestion-- basically having some individual quests that more or less get hand waived. Tying up the hooks and threads that they are really too high level to go adventure against now is a good way of cleaning up your campaign as well. Eventually, some things just get resolved, with or without the players interference.
metalhawk 04-12-07, 02:25 PM	... when they need to: recover their friend's lost soul from Baalzebul, stop an evil overlord from finding an artifact that will make him a god, recover the 3rd part of the regalia of evil might so that they can set up a trade with the evil champion who has the 3rd part of the regalia of good (they have the other two), actually then fight the evil champion, stop a demilich from becoming one with all undead everywhere, all while staying far enough away from a demigod to keep from getting smited by him and his many epic cohorts, and avoiding a cadre of assassins looking to kill them, and free the imprisoned god of entropy who will unmake the multiverse. (Don't worry about reading this Rob - I don't think I gave away anything you didn't know.... ;)) Well, by the time I read that it would have been too late :D Yah, I'm pretty familiar with most of that...although...one with all undead everywhere??!?! :weep: The rest of the suggestions are making sense. Rob's got it right though, we've got far too many things on our "to do" list. (And everything we do just adds another, it seems) We *don't* want to spend any face time (which is very minimal for us) playing out individual activities, and usually not mass battles either. Just the Big Thread with the BBEG(s) :) Rob
rob_douglas 04-12-07, 02:39 PM	Thanks all OK, I am going to go ahead and clean up some of the old threads from the game. That is a good idea. I am just trying to get them into the role of playing patrons. So we will probably role-play some of the initial invetment in that arena, and then let it happen in the background. And when the low level followers find bigger issues, they can raise them so that the PCs can deal with them - like they used to do. I think from this discussion, I also realize that those who don't already should have a more permanent set of followers/contacts - like the Ranger and Paladin especially that they can spend time with. I will start to work those in as well. I was thinking of looking more at Power of Faerun. I saw some good ideas in there, but also thought it might be too Forgotten Realms specific. Anyone think they have good generic outlines of events and activities of powerful personages? Or would you consider it too world specific? ROB
Thanael 04-12-07, 04:30 PM	This is why i liked 2E. Followers tables, castle building, henchmen. The Monk having to fight to win higher levels. Also don't forget politics. As heavy hitters they should be involved in local politics even global ones. Did you read the Adventurers (http://www.peldor.com/). They are a nice example of high level adventuring -including downtime - in Greyhawk. Another nice highlevel campaign to take inspiration from is Sepulchrave's ENWorld Story Hour: Tales of Wyre (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=58227). It is a perfect example of how the more epic the PCs get the more they get involved with other high ups themselves: demon lords, the church, their god/religion, national politics, other planes etc. Also you should probably post this request on the Greyhawk boards for more background related answers...
Thanael 04-12-07, 04:36 PM	double post
rob_douglas 04-13-07, 04:08 PM	Thanks. Tales of Wyre is on my reading list. ;) I hadn't read the Adventurers, but I have seen them around over the years - so I will add that to my list. They Greyhawk Epic boards might be a good idea, but a lot of what I am looking for is generic stuff - things that can be done without taking up gaming time, to simulate the between adventures stuff with minimal effort. ROB
Alias 04-14-07, 12:09 PM	I'm fairly sure Power of Faerun is non-specific; it deals a lot with high-level PCs in general, mostly with churches and guilds, but it also has rules for followers and such. I don't have the book, but I've glanced through it.
rob_douglas 04-16-07, 10:22 AM	I glanced through it again this weekend too, and it does seem to have some nice generic "this is what high level characters do with their time" kinds of information, so I may have to pick it up. I wish that it had melded more epic stuff in, since Epic is quite established in Faerun. I also hoped that someone here had made use of it. :) Again, if anyone else thinks of "things epic characters do that are not worthy of onscreen-time", but advance the story, please post your ideas. Thanks, ROB
Thanael 04-18-07, 06:19 AM	They Greyhawk Epic boards might be a good idea, but a lot of what I am looking for is generic stuff - things that can be done without taking up gaming time, to simulate the between adventures stuff with minimal effort. ROB Actually i meant the normal Greyhawk boards here on WotC. Or perhaps the main Greyhawk board on canonfire. But i see that i also missed your point a bit.
Geraturatu 04-21-07, 08:03 PM	Pretty much any guilds, affiliations, aquaintances, or just old friends eating over meals would be in the demands of the player's characters. Unless of course the player's are the type to just make a character and play it instead of actually putting some roleplaying. In fact, for a person that has been adventuring alot and saving the world several thousand times a year should be swamped with things to do when they take a break since everyone will want a piece of their time; in the realistic form at least.