Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kain_Darkwind 12-29-07, 04:32 AM	Zargon the Returner (http://projectdf.phpbbnow.com/viewtopic.php?p=24737#24737) (CR 42) Sertrous (http://projectdf.phpbbnow.com/viewtopic.php?p=24776#24776) (CR 35) And even though he's not epic.... Atropus (http://projectdf.phpbbnow.com/viewtopic.php?p=24812#24812) (CR 7) Advanced, some with new things added, some just with their old stuff upgraded. Feel free to offer critique here or there.
runestar 12-29-07, 07:13 AM	So maybe I am a little slow, but how is Atropus supposed to be a fair fight for a 7th lv party?:P Death ward is a given (though it can only protect so many PCs without resorting to scrolls).
BillTheManiac 12-29-07, 09:20 AM	say that 10 times fast! Epic elder evils elongate elusive ...um... elocutions?
Aluroon 12-29-07, 01:04 PM	So maybe I am a little slow, but how is Atropus supposed to be a fair fight for a 7th lv party?:P Death ward is a given (though it can only protect so many PCs without resorting to scrolls). Except Atropus causes every active spell within 1,400 miles to make a caster level check (DC 1000) or be suppressed. Good luck with that Deathward. Its a joke, Kain's mocking the new design strategy of making epic and or world destroying threats challenges for mid to low level characters.
Kain_Darkwind 12-29-07, 03:31 PM	See, the real threat is when Atropus hits with his 700 mile diameter slam attack, it deals...well, lot's of damage. To a lot of people and things. Plus he can power attack for a million or more pretty easy. So the energy drain and death ward....useless. It won't be energy drain that kills you. It will be the fact you have less than a hundred thousand hit points.
runestar 12-29-07, 09:27 PM	Oh, so it was meant as an intentional dig...:embarrass And here I though there was some loophole I missed...:P
Kain_Darkwind 12-30-07, 08:11 AM	Oh, so it was meant as an intentional dig...:embarrass And here I though there was some loophole I missed...:P No, but if there is some loophole I missed, it would be good to point it out. I don't expect there is with the thing being so stupidly massive, but there's always the chance.
Kain_Darkwind 12-30-07, 11:51 AM	Pandorym (http://projectdf.phpbbnow.com/viewtopic.php?p=24955#24955) (CR 50) Reunited with his sphere of annihilation (umbral blot) body, Pandorym is a mind shard no longer.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-30-07, 06:27 PM	If atropus is a joke, I don't get it. Last time I checked there weren't rules for CR that you can find loopholes around, just guidelines...which Kain obviously chose to ignore.
Witch 12-30-07, 06:36 PM	If atropus is a joke, I don't get it. Last time I checked there weren't rules for CR that you can find loopholes around, just guidelines...which Kain obviously chose to ignore. WotC wants to make Elder Evils that can be challenged by mid-level characters. So Kain gave his Elder Evil a CR appropriate for mid-level characters.
Kain_Darkwind 12-30-07, 07:37 PM	If atropus is a joke, I don't get it. Last time I checked there weren't rules for CR that you can find loopholes around, just guidelines...which Kain obviously chose to ignore. No, I'm following WotC's own ideas on CR regarding dragons, dropping the printed CR a few notches to make Atropus a little harder than normal for his CR.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-30-07, 10:51 PM	...Talk about shooting a rabbit with an elephant gun. Well, at least I get it now.
Kain_Darkwind 12-30-07, 11:12 PM	...Talk about shooting a rabbit with an elephant gun. Well, at least I get it now. More like an ant with an atomic bomb, but I get your metaphor. To be honest, Atropus' stats are all but useless in any non-Upper Krust endorsed game. In my mind, those stats are for use only if one really wants to attach numbers to the events that happen after the PCs fail to prevent Atropus from entering atmosphere and fail to kill its Aspect. And to be perfectly honest...I have no idea what sort of CR you'd attach to that thing. 7 works just as good as 700, and I expect they are both closer to each other than to the actual number value. The other Elder Evils are more serious stat attempts that fit in with the rest of my world.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-31-07, 12:55 AM	Ah, I see. What's DR/greater epic? I'm guessing +11 weapons bypass it?
Kain_Darkwind 12-31-07, 01:04 AM	Ah, I see. What's DR/greater epic? I'm guessing +11 weapons bypass it? Alternate World House Rules (http://projectdf.phpbbnow.com/viewtopic.php?t=359&highlight=) Forgot. Magic: +1, Greater Magic:+3, High Magic: +5, Epic:+6, Greater Epic +8, High Epic +10
Tequila_Sunrise 12-31-07, 02:23 PM	I see; any reason you don't simply go back to old school DR, as these rules are halfway there already? I myself use a variant of old school DR that removes the 'all or nothing' aspect of it. (Wow, just got major deja vu writing this post! We haven't had this discussion before have we?)
Kain_Darkwind 12-31-07, 03:56 PM	I see; any reason you don't simply go back to old school DR, as these rules are halfway there already? I myself use a variant of old school DR that removes the 'all or nothing' aspect of it. (Wow, just got major deja vu writing this post! We haven't had this discussion before have we?) I don't believe we've had the discussion before, although you may have read through my argumentation for the concept. Basically, I think that the 3.5 DR was excellent. It introduced things that made DR something to be dealt with rather than just overcome. Your holy avenger cuts through demonic DR, but it won't do so hot against devilish. However, dragons got the shaft. The idea that DR/magic meant anything after 5th level was a joke. Hell, some campaigns get their first +1 weapons on the first adventure. So Serge and I both wanted a return to the '+' DR that still included the good things about the new DR. Serge advocated a format of DR x/magic (+2), I wished for a word code because it looks prettier. I had prefixes for all five steps, which would then repeat +6-+10 by replacing magic with epic and +11-+15 by replacing magic with legendary. However, it got too cluttered in my mind. It was, if I remember correctly... Magic Improved Magic Advanced Magic Greater Magic High Magic So I figured including 3 of the 5 was more than sufficient for my purposes. Magic, Greater and High. Dragons in my world increase their level of protection. The first get DR 5/magic, then it goes 10/greater magic, 15/high magic and 20/epic, instead of keeping a +1 sword slicing flawlessly through their scales.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-31-07, 07:51 PM	Magic Improved Magic Advanced Magic Greater Magic High Magic I actually like these repeating five better than the repeating three; I like consistent patterns. The system I use is this; I don't mess with the DR/magic tag. Instead a magical weapon simply bypasses 5 points of DR per +1 enchantment.
Kain_Darkwind 12-31-07, 08:08 PM	I actually like these repeating five better than the repeating three; I like consistent patterns. Well, technically it is a consistent pattern, it is just a more complex one. Of every set of five, it takes the first, third and last one. But either one works. I just preferred to use the 3-set one for simplicity. The system I use is this; I don't mess with the DR/magic tag. Instead a magical weapon simply bypasses 5 points of DR per +1 enchantment. Of....any DR? DR/-? DR/silver? Or just DR/magic stuff?
Tequila_Sunrise 01-01-08, 01:34 PM	DR/other than magic remains all-or-nothing. I often boost DR/magic by 5 or 10, depending on the monster's CR, to make it more interesting. ;)
Kain_Darkwind 01-01-08, 03:48 PM	DR/other than magic remains all-or-nothing. I often boost DR/magic by 5 or 10, depending on the monster's CR, to make it more interesting. ;) Do you extend that to DR/epic? Or do you still need an epic weapon in that case? (Which presumably knocks off 5 points per point of bonus past +5.) So, DR 20/magic needs a +4 weapon to totally go through. DR 5/magic needs a +1 weapon. I like that, it's very simple and concise. A +3 weapon would treat DR 20/magic as DR 5/-
Tequila_Sunrise 01-01-08, 06:03 PM	Do you extend that to DR/epic? Or do you still need an epic weapon in that case? (Which presumably knocks off 5 points per point of bonus past +5.) Yup, epic works the same way. So effectively there is no difference between DR/magic and DR/epic. So, DR 20/magic needs a +4 weapon to totally go through. DR 5/magic needs a +1 weapon. I like that, it's very simple and concise. A +3 weapon would treat DR 20/magic as DR 5/- That's why I like it too. :)
Kain_Darkwind 01-02-08, 12:01 AM	Yup, epic works the same way. So effectively there is no difference between DR/magic and DR/epic. Ok, so for example, what does tarrasque and solar DR look like in your world? As it stands currently, a +3 weapon would handle the tarrasque's DR (and a +3 evil aligned one for the solar) Have you improved their DR to 30 or something?
Tequila_Sunrise 01-03-08, 05:21 PM	My rule of thumb for DR/magic is 5 points per 4 CRs, so the tarrasque I would change to CR 25/magic. On a related note, I rule that a monk's ki strike is equivalent to a +1 enhancement per 4 monk levels. Can't remember how it was in 3.0. As for the solar I'd rule it as DR 15 or 20/evil, as I haven't thought of an elegent way to deal with dual DRs...and I just don't like dual DRs.
Kain_Darkwind 01-03-08, 10:44 PM	So do pit fiends have DR 15/silver or DR 15/evil then? Something I like to do is treat DR x/something and something as DR 2x/something and 2x/something else in addition. So if you don't have a silver or good weapon, pit fiends reduce damage by 30. If you have a silver or a good weapon, it reduces damage by 15. And if you have a silver good weapon, you completely penetrate.
Tequila_Sunrise 01-04-08, 02:12 PM	So do pit fiends have DR 15/silver or DR 15/evil then? DR 15/good, or maybe 20/good if I'm feeling aggressive. I like to reserve cold iron and silver to fey and lycanthropes; I'm not a fan of the whole 'cold iron = lawful, silver = chaotic' theme. Something I like to do is treat DR x/something and something as DR 2x/something and 2x/something else in addition. So if you don't have a silver or good weapon, pit fiends reduce damage by 30. If you have a silver or a good weapon, it reduces damage by 15. And if you have a silver good weapon, you completely penetrate. Hm, that's a nice idea too. Although if you end up in Baator with neither a silver or a good weapon...*cringes*
Kain_Darkwind 01-04-08, 02:40 PM	DR 15/good, or maybe 20/good if I'm feeling aggressive. I like to reserve cold iron and silver to fey and lycanthropes; I'm not a fan of the whole 'cold iron = lawful, silver = chaotic' theme. Oh, that's really a shame. Cold iron has long featured heavily in myth as demonbane. Silver, I tend to agree with...there is nothing to my knowledge that suggests silver is inherently anathema to law....but it makes a nice counter point. Hm, that's a nice idea too. Although if you end up in Baator with neither a silver or a good weapon...*cringes* To be honest...if you end up in Baator at all, you are already in for a crazy ride of pain. With or without your holy silver weapons. I also do it in reverse. Creatures that have DR 10/good or cold iron (for example) would then have DR 5/good and cold iron.
Senevri 01-04-08, 06:01 PM	It will be the fact you have less than a hundred thousand hit points. Delay Death + Beastland Ferocity? Of course, you'll need a way to cut line of effect to yourself or get dispelled. Frankly, a bit tricky by level 7, all in all. The only thing which can withstand the HP damage would be a force effect. Being Necropolitan would help there. Hm. OTOH, how expensive was being a Ghost, again?
Kain_Darkwind 01-05-08, 01:39 AM	OTOH, how expensive was being a Ghost, again? It costs your life and isn't reliable at all. I'm not sure there is a market price on that. But if you become undead, that sort of defeats the point of 'surviving' Atropus....his goal is to kill all life on the planet, leaving it a lifeless husk inhabited only by undead. You just make his work easier (microscopically) if you do the deed before he gets there.
Senevri 01-05-08, 09:04 AM	Not if ya take him out. But... point. Intelligent undead casters will eventually gain a way to reverse the damage, though, if they're so inclined. Oh, and I was referring to LA obviously... but, then again a, say, Ghost Cleric2 isnt' much of an opponent. BTW, atropus is buggy. Slam doesn't do the trick since it's single target. What is needed is "Crush". The poor thing cannot hit anything that has Epic Dodge. Then again, epic characters can make the CL check, anyway. Prismatic Wall/Prismatic Sphere would do the trick, but that's a bit beyond CR 7. It's somewhat arguable if the Zone of wotnot affects a Prismatic Wall ( since it's an ill-defined effect, really. If it's "As Dispel Magic", then no. if it's as AMF, then no. )
Kain_Darkwind 01-05-08, 06:31 PM	Not if ya take him out. But... point. Intelligent undead casters will eventually gain a way to reverse the damage, though, if they're so inclined. Oh, and I was referring to LA obviously... but, then again a, say, Ghost Cleric2 isnt' much of an opponent. BTW, atropus is buggy. Slam doesn't do the trick since it's single target. What is needed is "Crush". The poor thing cannot hit anything that has Epic Dodge. Then again, epic characters can make the CL check, anyway. Prismatic Wall/Prismatic Sphere would do the trick, but that's a bit beyond CR 7. It's somewhat arguable if the Zone of wotnot affects a Prismatic Wall ( since it's an ill-defined effect, really. If it's "As Dispel Magic", then no. if it's as AMF, then no. ) Slam hits a 700 mile radius, actually. I've used Upper Krust's size rules for this guy, since there is no reasonable way to stat an entire planetoid without them. Every one within the area with an AC less than his attack roll (which you noticed can be a million easy) takes damage. If you cannot move more than 350 miles in a single round, you are flat-footed against his slam attacks. If you are flat-footed, you lose your dodge bonuses. If you lose your dodge bonus, you cannot be applying it to Atropus, thus Epic Dodge fails to work. The zone isn't poorly defined, it is intentionally broad worded to allow it to bring down all of your epic spells, prismatic spheres, magical flying cities and etc.
Senevri 01-05-08, 07:27 PM	Slam hits a 700 mile radius, actually. I've used Upper Krust's size rules for this guy, Fine, custom rules. If you cannot move more than 350 miles in a single round, you are flat-footed against his slam attacks. Teleport... but that isn't available by level 5-7 either, so meh. The zone isn't poorly defined, it is intentionally broad worded to allow it to bring down all of your epic spells, prismatic spheres, magical flying cities and etc. Which makes it a "uh-huh/nuh-uh" ability, effectively taking out an invincible god of invincibleness, which is stupid. In any case a nonmagical iron sphere should completely block the line of effect --- or the roof of a building, for an example. This means we can win init and 'port to the opposite side of the critter ( where it isn't directed at, since it's a cone, ) and use your SR-allowing, lose-on-failed-save spell spamming. Of course, at level 7, we just have access to 4th level spells, so your best bet is really a wealthy merchant rogue with good UMD and some high-level scrolls. It also really shouldn't affect coterminous planes as written, and if you say "does too", I shall call shenanigans. ( /strawman )
Kain_Darkwind 01-05-08, 09:48 PM	Fine, custom rules. It is a custom build and such was stated before, so what would you expect? The rule makes sense in this case, since an object 700 miles in diameter hitting a single 5x5 ft. square is slightly ludicrous. Teleport... but that isn't available by level 5-7 either, so meh. Nor is it a viable option unless you have it as an immediate action. You don't get to take standard actions in response to someone's attack. Which makes it a "uh-huh/nuh-uh" ability, effectively taking out an invincible god of invincibleness, which is stupid. Stupid like your mom! :rolleyes: What's the sense of spouting off nonsense like that? It is designed to end life on the world. If the god of invincibleness is upset, he can get a caster level higher than 1000. Or use non-magical/psionic means to protect people. In any case a nonmagical iron sphere should completely block the line of effect --- or the roof of a building, for an example. This means we can win init and 'port to the opposite side of the critter ( where it isn't directed at, since it's a cone, ) and use your SR-allowing, lose-on-failed-save spell spamming. Of course, at level 7, we just have access to 4th level spells, so your best bet is really a wealthy merchant rogue with good UMD and some high-level scrolls. You are still saying level 7....are you still of the opinion that it is actual a CR 7? I thought it was clear that such was a joke. It isn't going to fail a save. Whether you use the exploding dice variant rule in the ELH that I have adopted for my setting, or just point to the cosmic subtype which avoids auto-failure on a Natural 1, it isn't failing a save. It also really shouldn't affect coterminous planes as written, and if you say "does too", I shall call shenanigans. ( /strawman ) If you are off the plane, no big deal. It destroys life on the Mortal Coil, not elsewhere.
Senevri 01-06-08, 07:49 AM	It is a custom build and such was stated before, so what would you expect? The rule makes sense in this case, since an object 700 miles in diameter hitting a single 5x5 ft. square is slightly ludicrous. Well, yeah. Nor is it a viable option unless you have it as an immediate action. You don't get to take standard actions in response to someone's attack. Nuh-uh. I can beat that thing's Init. I get to act first. Thus, I get a Standard Action during the surprise round. Stupid like your mom! :rolleyes: What's the sense of spouting off nonsense like that? Er, Catharsis? It is designed to end life on the world. If the god of invincibleness is upset, he can get a caster level higher than 1000. Or use non-magical/psionic means to protect people. Unless you're PP, there probably aren't any. That thing shuts down SUPERNATURAL abilities - including movement speeds above 60ft/round, for an example. Incorporeal undead might wink out of existence Etc. ...And it still doesn't pierce an ordinary wooden roof (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#area). You are still saying level 7....are you still of the opinion that it is actual a CR 7? I thought it was clear that such was a joke. There's no joke I can't take seriously. I mean, if you want levels, I can beat that CL at level 28. Or earlier, with Consumptive Field and a whole lot of rats, if need be. But, it was posted as a CR 7 challenge, so that's how I'm looking at it. It isn't going to fail a save. Whether you use the exploding dice variant rule in the ELH that I have adopted for my setting, or just point to the cosmic subtype which avoids auto-failure on a Natural 1, it isn't failing a save. Okay, that's annoying. I'd probably need to throw a bigger planet at it, but that's tricky and certainly not doable at lv7. So, something that's "No save, no SR" -- and preferraby no ( ranged ) touch either? Hmm. If you are off the plane, no big deal. It destroys life on the Mortal Coil, not elsewhere. Well, I think there was some sort of spell which mass-shifted folks to Ethereal.
Kain_Darkwind 01-06-08, 09:53 AM	Well, no, the 3 million HD moonlet isn't actually a CR 7. I'll be upfront and honest with you. As for a roof protecting you, it would need to be pretty solid as I imagine the power filling its alloted area through cracks and openings. As for not getting an immediate action, I'm not talking about you going on your turn. I'm talking about if it attacks you, you being flat footed for its attack. Of course you can use teleport on your turn. Now, I am concerned with one-shot kills on the build, because I left some abilities low and didn't include something ridiculous like SR 170000. You are focusing more on evading the certain death offered by it, which is ok, but not something I am too worried about. I'm just trying to ensure the only way to kill it is to reduce it to 0 hp, and not some cheapness I've overlooked.
Senevri 01-06-08, 01:16 PM	Well, no, the 3 million HD moonlet isn't actually a CR 7. I'll be upfront and honest with you. *gasp!* As for a roof protecting you, it would need to be pretty solid as I imagine the power filling its alloted area through cracks and openings. Say, few feet of solid stone? It's effectively a non-reflecting light-type effect, yes? As for not getting an immediate action, I'm not talking about you going on your turn. I'm talking about if it attacks you, you being flat footed for its attack. Of course you can use teleport on your turn. Well, at high-enough-level, Foresight would warn the character - of even the nasty cone effect. Technically, you could timestop + protect yourself that way ( veil of undeath? ). A Jovoc Bomb might be one way to take the creature out, or Explosive Rune bomb. But that's high-level stuff. Alternatively, AFTER the cone hits (at around 700000FT, way before the planetoid is within reach ), I can simply Iron Heart Surge it out, at least until it's the thing's turn again. Better have that quickened get-away prepared --- or a friendly party at a lower init. Still, every adventurer in a very large area now have an opportunity to act. Of course, Undead - or Tomb-tainted - Initiators are not that common. Now, I am concerned with one-shot kills on the build, because I left some abilities low and didn't include something ridiculous like SR 170000. You are focusing more on evading the certain death offered by it, which is ok, but not something I am too worried about. I'm just trying to ensure the only way to kill it is to reduce it to 0 hp, and not some cheapness I've overlooked. Well, it can be taken out by Int draining it, I guess. I'm not sure if there's no-save way to do it. Also it's DEX is lousy. Maximized Shivering Touch would take it out if it weren't undead. Spark of Life unfortunately allows a will save. I am defensive-minded - if I can survive or take upper hand on the situation, I can do something about it, and all. Technically, if I can avoid the Slam and am not harmed/can function in the ZoD, I could take this thing out with a eternal wand of imagic missiles ( ~40 000GP ). If I ease out to, oh, 20th level caster, Foresight would warn me before the ZoD hits, at which point I could Time Stop/Plane Shift, for an example. Let's say I'm actually on open terrain with just the correct set of spells running ( best possible situation ) - I would get a warning round before ZoD hits, and I would detect the ginormous shadow overhead. Time stop is a good start, second would be a way to survive in space - Necklace of Adaptation for an example. Third, Superior Invisibility would mean the thing wouldn't notice me. I'm not entirely sure how to take this thing out, certainly not within round. My best bet would be to launch a single assault, then move somewhere the Zone won't reach. ( as the critter is likely to point that nasty cone to the direction of an attack, yes? ) A ready-made Jovoc bomb would do the trick, I guess... Maybe Apocalypse from the Sky + Explosive Spell trick? I'm not actually sure that does enough damage, oy... 150,480d6 just doesn't cut it here. Avasculate probably counts as a death attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#deathAttacks), although it's a bit unclear, but that's how I'd rule it as a DM. Otherwise it would be an excellent spell here. Hm. Spellwarp Sniper might actually be useful here, as ray attacks WILL hit this thing, and warp'd spells become Save:none, SR:yes. Wizard X/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Uncanny Trickster 3/Prestige race 3 would get 9th level spells as valid targets for Spellwarp. If only I could find a "Reflex save or lose" spell with instantaneous duration and area larger than touch, now...
Kain_Darkwind 01-06-08, 05:35 PM	Well, if you come up with something make sure to point it out. Ray of idiocy and ego whip don't work because they are mind-affecting, and it is immune to mind-affecting by virtue of being undead and by virtue of the Cosmic subtype. Remember, Cosmic subtype means that it has all of the immunities of DvR 1. Avasculate has the death descriptor AND only affects living creatures. Which is probably good, since a spell that purges the blood from a creature isn't going to work on an undead planet. As for the negative energy cone, if you are sealed in, you are safe. Say, in a closed house with reasonably secure doors and windows. But if you are in say, an open cave....you aren't safe. The energy is going to come through the mouth, it doesn't need a straight line path. I'm confused as to how you expect to Iron Heart Surge it out....it ends a condition immediately affecting you. What condition would that be?
Senevri 01-06-08, 07:22 PM	I'm confused as to how you expect to Iron Heart Surge it out....it ends a condition immediately affecting you. What condition would that be? Well, any condition at all ;) Zone of Death is a supernatural cone which forces a CL check to use supernatural abilities (such as, oh, breath weapon for dragons O_o; ) Thus, if you're suppressed by the cone ( or standing in a AMF, for comparison ), you can stop the effect by using Iron Heart Surge. This knocks out the entire cone, until Atropus reinstates it on it's turn. I have no idea how to determine the duration for the effect ( outside of "while in the cone of ZoD ), but it doesn't seem to be instantaneous, in any case. Admittedly, IHS works on things it shouldn't, and doesn't on things it should, so let's not look at that too carefully. I have yet to find a decent candidate for taking the thing out. A Wish could deposit on the Positive Energy Plane which would destroy it, but once again, it would get a will save. I could probably find an effect which could daze it, no save etc. but that's not terribly useful --- unless I can get an infinite source of those, so I can spend the next few days blasting at it, whittling down it's HP. Something like a Sphere of Ultimate Destruction or Maw of Chaos are probably the best candidates, especially if Spontaneously Maximised, for an example. As I said before, a Jovoc Bomb, or a sufficient library of Explosive Runes would do the trick, but those are not easy to come by --- Besides, if I could make one rune per turn, it'd still take me almost a year to make a sufficient amount of them. AFAIK, there's only one spell which gets rid of undead immunities, but that allows a will save, which it will make.
BillTheManiac 01-06-08, 07:39 PM	could probably find an effect which could daze it, no save etc. but that's not terribly useful --- unless I can get an infinite source of those, so I can spend the next few days blasting at it, whittling down it's HP. Find one and we'll see.
Senevri 01-06-08, 07:56 PM	Spellwarped Frost Breath. Duration instantaneous, dazes for 1 round. 'tis a shame, it's a 2nd level spell, so if it had a duration, it could've been made to last 24 hours. :I I knew that Spellwarp Sniper would be useful ;) The spell does up to 5d4 cold damage, so at level 23 it can be made into an SLA. You'll probably need to change the energy type to something useful - say, with a level of Archmage. If you don't need to eat, sleep or rest, you can technically use this to take the thing out, 5d4 points at a time. Might take a few years.
Kain_Darkwind 01-06-08, 09:38 PM	Well, any condition at all ;) Zone of Death is a supernatural cone which forces a CL check to use supernatural abilities (such as, oh, breath weapon for dragons O_o; ) Thus, if you're suppressed by the cone ( or standing in a AMF, for comparison ), you can stop the effect by using Iron Heart Surge. This knocks out the entire cone, until Atropus reinstates it on it's turn. Woah there, Hoss. Nuh-uh. Iron Heart Surge does not knock out the effect, it removes the condition affecting you. I'm not sure where you are reading into it to think that it ends the effect for everyone. Plus the damage is instantaneous...you aren't going to escape that. Spellwarped Frost Breath. What source?
Senevri 01-06-08, 09:56 PM	Woah there, Hoss. Nuh-uh. Iron Heart Surge does not knock out the effect, it removes the condition affecting you. I'm not sure where you are reading into it to think that it ends the effect for everyone. Plus the damage is instantaneous...you aren't going to escape that. Tome of Battle... um, either Q&A, or FAQ. If you're in, say, a fog effect, or in an AMF, and use IHS, the entire effect goes down. Silliness. Edit: it was the Q&A: Q: Can Iron Heart Surge remove: 1. Poison. 2. Disease. 3. The spell "Bestow Curse". 4. Ability score damage. 5. Level drain. 6. The influence of an antimagic field. (*) 7. If you use Iron Heart Surge against an effect which does not solely target you, but also affects an area, do you end the entire effect or do you just dismiss it from yourself? A: 1. Yes. 2. Yes. 3. Yes. 4. Ability score damage is not an ongoing effect. It is the result of an attack, spell, or ability. So no - damage, even ability score damage, will not be removed by Iron Heart Surge. 5. In most cases, level drain is similar to damage when determining if Iron Heart Surge removes it from the martial adept. If something level drained you, this is a permanent result, not an effect with an ongoing duration. You would not be able to use Iron Heart Surge to remove level drain. 6. Yes, you would be able to end the antimagic field if you chose to do so with Iron Heart Surge. 7. If the effect does not solely target you, such as the antimagic field in number 6, it will still end the entire effect. The last two are the interesting bits. I guess this is how it plays out; select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. Effect or other condition: ZoD. ZoD ends immediately. Logical, although I doubt it was what the writer of the maneuver had in mind. Frankly, there are ways around negative energy damage, I'm not too worried 'bout that. Spellwarped Frost Breath. What source? Spellwarp Sniper: Complete Scoundrel. Basically, you get to turn area effect spells of levels 1-5 to ranged touch attacks (rays). turns AoE spells with a Reflex save to Ranged Touch attacks with no save. ( doesn't do anything 'bout will and fort saves, though. ) Frost Breath: Spell Compendium. 30ft cone doing pitiful damage (1d4/2 levels, cap 5d4), but dazes on a failed reflex save.
Kain_Darkwind 01-07-08, 01:03 AM	Tome of Battle... um, either Q&A, or FAQ. If you're in, say, a fog effect, or in an AMF, and use IHS, the entire effect goes down. Silliness. Edit: it was the Q&A: The last two are the interesting bits. I guess this is how it plays out; Effect or other condition: ZoD. ZoD ends immediately. Logical, although I doubt it was what the writer of the maneuver had in mind. Frankly, there are ways around negative energy damage, I'm not too worried 'bout that. Wow. That is the stupidest ruling I've ever seen. The effect is personal. It doesn't target anything. Unbelievable. Spellwarp Sniper: Complete Scoundrel. Basically, you get to turn area effect spells of levels 1-5 to ranged touch attacks (rays). turns AoE spells with a Reflex save to Ranged Touch attacks with no save. ( doesn't do anything 'bout will and fort saves, though. ) Frost Breath: Spell Compendium. 30ft cone doing pitiful damage (1d4/2 levels, cap 5d4), but dazes on a failed reflex save. Ok, good. So I probably need cold immunity (which it should have anyway, as its aspect does) but then an energy substitution effect (fire) or something could do the same thing. So I probably should put spell resistance on the sucker.
Senevri 01-07-08, 09:49 AM	Ok, good. So I probably need cold immunity (which it should have anyway, as its aspect does) but then an energy substitution effect (fire) or something could do the same thing. So I probably should put spell resistance on the sucker. Naw. A planar sorcerer can make it half-force, or the simple expedience of Piercing Evocation makes it untyped. ( for 10 points only, but that's plenty for this spell. ) Bigger problem is actually how do I get to cast it enough times... At epic, it can simply be an SLA, or if you have allies, those can bomb the critter. Frankly, this spell cannot reasonably kill the thing, even if it can disable it.
Avatar of Kokusho 01-08-08, 10:54 AM	I have a custom spell that warps spells with a range greater than personal into ray spells. The highest level version allows for 7th level and below. Only works on the next spell you cast, though, giving it a range of Close. Find a way to get immune to being dazed and cast the Celerity line to avoid initial effects of the thing; because that IHS stuff is just plain :censored:, IMO.
Senevri 01-08-08, 07:39 PM	Find a way to get immune to being dazed and cast the Celerity line to avoid initial effects of the thing; because that IHS stuff is just plain :censored:, IMO. ...And Celerity isn't? In any case, I don't know any other way to gain Immunity to Daze, except Favor of the Martyr.
Kain_Darkwind 01-09-08, 02:07 AM	You know, honestly while the 3 million HD Atropus might be the most fun to try and beat with a sub-100th level party, I think that build required the least thought and got the least work. I'm much prouder of my version of Zargon and Sertrous. And the united Pandorym (rather than just the mind-shard you face in Elder Evils) is also much more interesting than Atropus.
Senevri 01-09-08, 12:24 PM	Well, Zargon is about... well, just right for a full 40th level party of decently optimal people, for a BBEG end guy. Should be beatable with some foreknowledge of the nastier abilities. Atropus is... fun. Not exactly CR 7, but beatable by two 17th level casters with chain gate cheese, or Consumptive Field cheese. Admittedly, nine trillion HPs are a bit much. You'd need a caster level over 1 million (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBtpyeLxVkI) to one-shot the thing... which is down-right silly. I'd probably use the Spellwarp as a temporary solution, then craft a Homunculus with maximised UMD, and gave it an Eternal wand of spellwarped, untyped Frost Breath. Then I'd make another similar Homunculus and equip it with a, say, an eternal wand of Magic Missile. With occasional maintenance, those two would take the thing down in, oh 571000 years or so. If I could manipulate space-time sufficiently to fit the thing through a Gate, depositing it on the Positive Energy Plane would be the optimal solution, really... Seriously, that's a lot of HP.... It might be interesting to posit the following scenario to my players once they're closer to level 40, or so... ( not that great optimizers, they. ) - Have them visit a planet with no gods under the guise of a different quest. - Drop in some hooks about Atropus approaching ( Maybe a leShay travelling silver-surfer style ahead of it? ) - Give them the option of trying to defeat it, or running away. - Make the option B an adventure of it's own - say, once the ZoD hits. ( travelling quite a bit to reach a place where they can Plane Shift away .. although I'd guess the Zone gets progressively smaller as the thing approaches... or if he aims it at quadrants, to get the maximum reach continuously, there's 3 rounds where the zone isn't in effect in a particular quadrant. Hm. )
BillTheManiac 01-09-08, 02:12 PM	Where did you get the 9 million HP/CL figure?
Senevri 01-09-08, 02:24 PM	The relatively efficient Maw of Chaos does CL^2 d6 damage.
BillTheManiac 01-09-08, 02:51 PM	The relatively efficient Maw of Chaos does CL^2 d6 damage. And it's not capped for epic? Wow Wait, that's 400d6 at 20th, right?, meaning approximately 1400, more then the Great Wyrm Gold has. I'm guessing that's overt time, like 1d6/CL for 1 round/CL?
Senevri 01-09-08, 03:49 PM	Yup, over time. Still, a million rounds is less than three months.
BillTheManiac 01-10-08, 12:28 PM	Maximized, CL=1,224,745. or 85.0517361 days.
Tshern 01-10-08, 02:52 PM	...And Celerity isn't? In any case, I don't know any other way to gain Immunity to Daze, except Favor of the Martyr. Mark of the Dauntless, from some Eberron book. I would, by the way, love to give that undead monstrosity a single initiator level.
Kain_Darkwind 01-10-08, 04:39 PM	Maximized, CL=1,224,745. or 85.0517361 days. So....what do you think the chances of a creature with a 40,000 foot fly speed taking more than....a couple hundred points of damage from that spell? Assuming Atropus just 'ran' through the spell, it would take him 24 rounds to clear it. Since he has a perfect fly speed, he could also just avoid it. Now, a wall in space of tons of maws of chaos might be pretty awesome. Like a small blackhole field. Still wouldn't kill him, but it sure would look impressive as the archmages of the planet gather to try and save their world.
Tshern 01-10-08, 05:13 PM	Kain's scenario reminds me of something sweet: "Elliot, you idiot! Can't you even die properly?" Not sure if that says anything to you, though.
Senevri 01-10-08, 07:02 PM	So....what do you think the chances of a creature with a 40,000 foot fly speed taking more than....a couple hundred points of damage from that spell? Assuming Atropus just 'ran' through the spell, it would take him 24 rounds to clear it. Since he has a perfect fly speed, he could also just avoid it. Now, a wall in space of tons of maws of chaos might be pretty awesome. Like a small blackhole field. Still wouldn't kill him, but it sure would look impressive as the archmages of the planet gather to try and save their world. Or one cosmic descryer self-sacrifice, really... I guess that's why some people nerf the class. But in any case, that's why I said two casters. I'm still not entirely sure how the Spellwarp Sniper can manage to disable the thing for a sufficiently long time. Something like 100 turns ( 10 minutes ) is probably the maximum feasible time, without some sort of a trick... And spellwarp Sniper is such an unpopular class, there probably aren't that many of them around. You can find Archmages more easily.
BillTheManiac 01-11-08, 07:17 AM	So....what do you think the chances of a creature with a 40,000 foot fly speed taking more than....a couple hundred points of damage from that spell? Assuming Atropus just 'ran' through the spell, it would take him 24 rounds to clear it. Since he has a perfect fly speed, he could also just avoid it. Now, a wall in space of tons of maws of chaos might be pretty awesome. Like a small blackhole field. Still wouldn't kill him, but it sure would look impressive as the archmages of the planet gather to try and save their world. wasn't my idea! I should really have intensified it, though.
Senevri 01-11-08, 12:03 PM	Actually, the 1d2 Crusader can kill this with a single punch, now that I think of it. Then again, it can kill anything that dies from HP damage. *shrug*
Kain_Darkwind 01-11-08, 02:19 PM	Actually, the 1d2 Crusader can kill this with a single punch, now that I think of it. Then again, it can kill anything that dies from HP damage. *shrug* I doubt it, since it is probably based on rules loopholes that no sane DM would allow. But for the sake of my curiosity, what is a 1d2 Crusader? More martial adept madness like IHS?
Tshern 01-11-08, 06:42 PM	It's a build using the Crusader stance (Aura of Chaos?) that let's you reroll all damage dice that score the maximum result. For example, with 1d2, you can reroll whenever you get a two and you add it to the damage. IIRC, it uses Luck devotion to reroll all ones and when you reroll everything, you get infinite damage. To keep it simple, you can roll all ones because of Luck devotion and if you score a two, you can reroll it because of Aura of Chaos. Could I have been more unclear?
Kain_Darkwind 01-12-08, 12:24 AM	It's a build using the Crusader stance (Aura of Chaos?) that let's you reroll all damage dice that score the maximum result. For example, with 1d2, you can reroll whenever you get a two and you add it to the damage. IIRC, it uses Luck devotion to reroll all ones and when you reroll everything, you get infinite damage. To keep it simple, you can roll all ones because of Luck devotion and if you score a two, you can reroll it because of Aura of Chaos. Could I have been more unclear? No, I get it. There is no melee weapon to my knowledge that deals 1d2 damage. None that allows touch attacks that deal 1d2 damage. And thus no way to hit Atropus' stupidly high AC in order to deal that damage. But even if there were, it is a stupid loop like pun-pun, not a serious game tactic.
runestar 01-12-08, 02:09 AM	A tiny dagger should deal 1d2, IIRC. Pixie crusaders...:D Touch attacks can be obtained by having a wizard persist a wraithstrike on you (you probably have to use a ring of spell storing or something, or UMD a scroll of persistent wraithstrike). Pity there is no weapon that deals 1d1...:P
Tshern 01-12-08, 09:00 AM	Oh god, I can still remember the discussion about what is a d1. A marble? No, a marble is a d(insert the amount of surface molecules here). A moebius strip? Perhaps...
Avatar of Kokusho 01-12-08, 09:34 AM	Doesn't a small shiruken deal 1 point? Aside from the fact that I'm pretty sure it can't be used in melee...
Senevri 01-12-08, 09:51 AM	Okay, AFAIK, it goes like this: - A small gauntlet uses 1d2 die - Aura of chaos requires you to actually ROLL for damage, so 1 point weapons are no go. - In... complete champion, I think, there is something that allows you to "count a roll of 1 as if you'd rolled 2". (Feat called "Imbued Healing" ) - you just need to hit ONCE. no need to persist wraithstrike. - CRUSADER PUNCH! It's roughly iron-clad rules-wise, but will cause blunt trauma via improvised weapon (DMG).
BillTheManiac 01-13-08, 12:08 PM	But even if there were, it is a stupid loop like pun-pun, not a serious game tactic. Was Atropus ever a serious anything?
Senevri 01-13-08, 02:35 PM	what would be a real CR for Atropus, anyway? I'm guessing at least 28, since that's when a specific type of character can at least potentially defeat it... But that would mean it's still overpowering, so something like 33?
Kain_Darkwind 01-13-08, 02:37 PM	Was Atropus ever a serious anything? A serious exercise in using Upper Krust's sizing rules to stat a 700 mile diameter object. Other than that, no. Which is why I'm prouder of the other epic elder evils I've done, that I put thought and effort into their feat choices, ability scores and skill ranks, along with their special abilities. what would be a real CR for Atropus, anyway? I'm guessing at least 28, since that's when a specific type of character can at least potentially defeat it... But that would mean it's still overpowering, so something like 33? If his CR isn't at least 200, something is horribly wrong. Either broken rules loopholes are being used or I've horribly missed paying attention to some critical aspect of him.
BillTheManiac 01-13-08, 08:00 PM	A serious exercise in using Upper Krust's sizing rules to stat a 700 mile diameter object. Other than that, no. Which is why I'm prouder of the other epic elder evils I've done, that I put thought and effort into their feat choices, ability scores and skill ranks, along with their special abilities. If his CR isn't at least 200, something is horribly wrong. Either broken rules loopholes are being used or I've horribly missed paying attention to some critical aspect of him. Without brokennation you might be looking at a CR in the millions. Getting him stuck somehow in Maw of Chaos might be a valid tactic.
Amon_V 01-22-08, 04:34 PM	I think I understand WHY its CR 7. Its lost its car keys, and needs to find them, so have a good chat with it and it will probably leave you alone (hurrah for no sense motive). The problem with this guy is despite his huge size, his only real offensive choices are his death cone (Iron Heart Surge or Negative Energy Protection + Wish (Wish can do wacky things at full power) That said, this guy is clearly a supertanker--it would take hours of continuous fighting to win, even assuming that his offensive power could be avoided. I'd seriously suggest a CR 99 for this guy, on the grounds that Extreme Epic MUST have cool things to use against this guy.
Kain_Darkwind 01-23-08, 01:18 AM	That said, this guy is clearly a supertanker--it would take hours of continuous fighting to win, even assuming that his offensive power could be avoided. I'd seriously suggest a CR 99 for this guy, on the grounds that Extreme Epic MUST have cool things to use against this guy. Could a DnD god beat him? Or perhaps a pantheon of them?
Tshern 01-23-08, 01:52 AM	Finding a way to protect from his special abilities like Amon proposed and then spamming Spark of Life and finally hit him with a Wraithstriked Shivering touch would do it, I guess. However, if SR applies to Spark of Life, I have nothing.
NoldorForce 01-23-08, 02:10 AM	If you don't mind being really, really slow, an undead swarm could kill him. Or at least be naturally immune to all of his attacks. Now how do we manage this? It's ECL 19, but you could be a Gravetouched Ghoul [Libris Mortis] Silthilar [Lords of Madness]. Or you could be a Ghost Silthilar (ECL 22) with Corrupting Gaze (1d4 Cha damage on a failed save) and Draining Touch (1d4 off any ability score on a failed save and a successful touch), which is quicker than wearing Atropus down with swarm damage. And there's the side benefit of being able to fly around inside Atropus. Unfortunately, there's still the big problem that Atropus could simply run away. If we could ensure some sort of teleportation/pursuit ability at will, that'd be nice. Still, considering that Atropus has an Int score of 4, Draining Touch seems like the best bet.
Amon_V 01-23-08, 03:12 AM	Well, the easy answer is out-initiative it and banish it; its extraplanar, an outsider and has the traits of DR 1, so get rid of it. A better idea would be find a way to gate it into the Positive Energy Plane. That should ensure its demise. But how to get it there without SR or a Saving throw? Perhaps by dropping an invisible gate in its path or something... Death by Awesome, Redux.
Kain_Darkwind 01-24-08, 07:47 PM	Well, I nixed the ideas that rely on using undead against it. The moon's mere proximity stirs up the restless dead; it now has a control aura against undead that get too close. Which also explains why the undead on its surface defend it against invaders. I also tossed on SR 100. That should keep most cheap shot spells from working at all unless you are an elder god (and a seriously powerful one) in my campaign world.
Amon_V 01-24-08, 11:20 PM	Okay, constructs should be playing at full strength against this guy--The word Living is SOLID GOLD on this guy. A bronze Locust Swarm should be able to eventually take this guy down, as long as they were able to stick themselves to him (is it too much to suggest that they could somehow ride Atropus?) As for deities, what happens if Atropus is afflicted by "Mass Life and Death"? Does this count as defeating him? Finally, Time Stop + 14 Walls of Force (Permanent) effectively locks him in place. This is a quirk of geometry: Imagine a cube, where the center of each face has a Wall of Force on it, as does each corner. Now, you just need a means to hit him from outside the range of 1,400 Miles (I suggest Meteors) that hit between tiny walls of force that hold him in place. I mean, this guy is silly large, let's use that against him. A 1km Meteor weighs about 4 Trillion KG, or roughly 40 billion D6 Damage. Since we have him pinned, the gods will now grab 1km Meteors and chuck em at him. Each Meteor will deal about 140 Billion Damage. 10 of them should kill Atropus. All of this is entirely plausible at CR 99.
NoldorForce 01-24-08, 11:44 PM	Well, I nixed the ideas that rely on using undead against it. The moon's mere proximity stirs up the restless dead; it now has a control aura against undead that get too close. Which also explains why the undead on its surface defend it against invaders.Makes sense, considering that he's a GIANT MOON OF DEATH! :D You might want to throw in some sort of aversion ability against deathless, however. Like the above change, it makes sense both mechanically and thematically. Come to think of it, how does Antimagic Field interact with Zone of Death? I ask because AMF has this line:An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it.I was thinking that it might run into the standard situation of cosmic entities ignoring such things, but it helps to be sure. @ Amon_V: As implied above, Atropus is a Cosmic Entity, which means that it functions as a deity with a few changes. AFAIK, it still gets the slew of immunities, though not the SDAs.
Kain_Darkwind 01-25-08, 12:13 AM	Okay, constructs should be playing at full strength against this guy--The word Living is SOLID GOLD on this guy. A bronze Locust Swarm should be able to eventually take this guy down, as long as they were able to stick themselves to him (is it too much to suggest that they could somehow ride Atropus?) Considering that humanoid adventuring parties are expected to use his body as a location for a fight against the aspect of Atropus, no, I don't think it would be too much to suggest. I doubt they would survive long, given the hordes of undead the roam over his body. As for deities, what happens if Atropus is afflicted by "Mass Life and Death"? Does this count as defeating him? Not only is he undead, which Mass Life and Death being a death effect means he is immune to it, but he has the Cosmic subtype, which means he doesn't qualify as a mortal for the purposes of divine SDAs. Finally, Time Stop + 14 Walls of Force (Permanent) effectively locks him in place. This is a quirk of geometry: Imagine a cube, where the center of each face has a Wall of Force on it, as does each corner. Interesting idea. It is possible that some of the undead on his surface may have access to disintegrate however, so it isn't foolproof. Now, you just need a means to hit him from outside the range of 1,400 Miles (I suggest Meteors) that hit between tiny walls of force that hold him in place. I mean, this guy is silly large, let's use that against him. A 1km Meteor weighs about 4 Trillion KG, or roughly 40 billion D6 Damage. Since we have him pinned, the gods will now grab 1km Meteors and chuck em at him. Each Meteor will deal about 140 Billion Damage. 10 of them should kill Atropus. All of this is entirely plausible at CR 99. Plausible yes. And for games that use the quickly broken Hulking Hurler damage chart, I'm sure it would be that easy. I myself don't use it, because it doesn't scale at all properly. Someone, I believe it was Upper Krust, estimated the hit points of a mass of stone the Earth's size is 150,000 hp ish. Therefore, 1 km meteors can't deal 140 billion damage. I'm not saying you are wrong, but just pointing out that it isn't a concern for my game. I'm sure even with drastically reduced damage, enough meteors could kill Atropus.
Rikandur_Azebol 01-25-08, 01:04 AM	I had heard that they reduced max damage from weighty objects to 20 dice.
NoldorForce 01-25-08, 02:27 AM	Not only is he undead, which Mass Life and Death being a death effect means he is immune to it, but he has the Cosmic subtype, which means he doesn't qualify as a mortal for the purposes of divine SDAs.Unless Dicefreaks changed it, Mass Life and Death is not a death effect. Life and Death is, but Mass Life and Death gives out an untyped effect:The deity can designate any number of mortals and snuffs out their lives. Or the deity can designate any number of dead mortals and restore them to life.Oh, and you might want to update its Organization line. Sure, it's Unique, but you've noted above that its surface is swarming with undead. Perhaps something like this might work? Organization: Swarm (Unique + millions of undead) Though the "millions" figure is probably way low, considering its surface area. @ Rikandur_Azebol: Who's "they"? Upper_Krust? Dicefreaks? Both?
Thorsbjorn 01-25-08, 03:39 AM	So do you think Elder Evils is worthwhile? Do any of its creatures have epic-level CRs right in the book? On the earlier subject of DR, I've reinstated the old DR #/+x with creatures that now have DR #/magic and #/epic. If the creature had DR +x then in 3.0 then I use the +x, unless the creature had x < 6 and it current has DR /epic, in which case I give it DR #/+6. In the case of dragons, however, I started DR at a younger age, and added +2 to the 3.0 x. So if a dragon had DR /+3 under 3.0 if now has DR /+5 and so forth.
BillTheManiac 01-25-08, 10:33 AM	Well, I nixed the ideas that rely on using undead against it. The moon's mere proximity stirs up the restless dead; it now has a control aura against undead that get too close. Which also explains why the undead on its surface defend it against invaders. I also tossed on SR 100. That should keep most cheap shot spells from working at all unless you are an elder god (and a seriously powerful one) in my campaign world. Considering your intended CR is 200+, giving him defenses that don't work against lvl100 parties might not help. Now, what if we just had some huge area of effect to kill all the undead?
Kain_Darkwind 01-25-08, 12:11 PM	Unless Dicefreaks changed it, Mass Life and Death is not a death effect. Life and Death is, but Mass Life and Death gives out an untyped effect: Well, Kain's Alternate World doesn't operate off DF deity rules, but my own modified from the official WotC ones. So at the moment, Life and Death in AW are as they are in WotC. Oh, and you might want to update its Organization line. Sure, it's Unique, but you've noted above that its surface is swarming with undead. Perhaps something like this might work? Organization: Swarm (Unique + millions of undead) Though the "millions" figure is probably way low, considering its surface area. Good idea. @ Rikandur_Azebol: Who's "they"? Upper_Krust? Dicefreaks? Both? I'd suspect he means Wizards, because DF nor UK has done anything of the sort. So do you think Elder Evils is worthwhile? Do any of its creatures have epic-level CRs right in the book? The CRs range from 16-25, although looking at those creatures...CRs have been artificially reduced, ala dragons. In my opinion it is worthwhile. Considering your intended CR is 200+, giving him defenses that don't work against lvl100 parties might not help. Yeah, I gave up on trying to find an actual CR for him and just went to put him beyond the ability of gods to destroy Now, what if we just had some huge area of effect to kill all the undead? It would help. I'm not sure if you have Elder Evils, but the intended way to deal with Atropus coming to your world is to go to the moon before it breaks atmosphere, destroy the undead and Aspect of Atropus, and the moon retreats to find other prey. Which depending on how powerful you make the aspect and surrounding hordes of undead, can be a 23rd level challenge or a 400th level. Destroying Atropus itself....I think that's beyond the scope of any reasonable game, but if you surpass the gods in my world, and possibly the overgods...you might pull it off. I just want it to still be something that gods can't directly intervene in and wipe out.
Amon_V 01-25-08, 01:20 PM	Am still sticking with CR 99, as I think that anyone of this magnitude is going to be able to crack Atropus one way or another. At this point, the question I have is "Can Epic Magic create a No SR, No SAVE spell that can deal with this guy?" I STRONGLY suspect that it can. Any Deity with the Time Portfolio is going to have unusual options in dealing with Atropus--it's entirely possible that Atropus can be ejected into the distant future with low grade cut and paste action. There is no saving throw for planar traits involving time, a temporal deity might be able to shift him to 1 round = 10 Trillion Years. Finally, Epic Biomancy might also generate an answer: In this case, we need a "Grey Goo" that replicates at a geometric rate and consumes undead (and only undead) material. It should be type construct, but once designed, it should exponentially increase in power and consume Atropus in minutes. As for the Undead disintegrating the walls of force, the limited range of Disintegrate compared to the size of Atropus makes this less feasible than assumed. In addition, I'd be hopeful that the bombardment could, even at greatly reduced damage, kill the mages attempting to do this.
Ughbash 01-25-08, 02:45 PM	As for the Undead disintegrating the walls of force, the limited range of Disintegrate compared to the size of Atropus makes this less feasible than assumed. In addition, I'd be hopeful that the bombardment could, even at greatly reduced damage, kill the mages attempting to do this. Away from book, but first off don't walls of force need to be anchored on something? Secondly if he moved to one of the walls of force it would stop him until an undead disintegrated it. However it doesn't stop him until he impacts it so the range can be reduced to 0, thus an undead could go to it and disintegrate it. The way you described the placement of the walls, removing any one of the sides would allow the escape from within the trap. It then effectively becomes an open box rather then a closed box, and while it could channel him until he was fully out of it (which may prove useful), it would no longer hold him.
Amon_V 01-25-08, 03:14 PM	Well, part of the problem is that Atropus is SO LARGE that the undead would probably spend as much as 24 hours getting into proper position. In addition, the size of the walls of force are trivial in size and they are invisible. Disintegrating them is possible, but still not easy. Also, figure that the INT 4 guy CONTROLLING the UNDEAD isn't very smart. I really think this one is not happening, Atropus is not bright enough to command his undead to do this, and because they are all under his control, they will follow his STUPID ORDERS and not be able to break the walls of force. Because of the low intelligence of Atropus, I think we can rule out OFFENSIVE SPELLCASTING from him entirely--Undead will melee, and that's it. Even if this WERE an issue, odds are that the plane can cast more walls of force than Atropus' minions can disintegrate. As for Anchoring; even if Walls of Force aren't freeform, you can throw on Genesis to give them something to hold onto.
Thorsbjorn 01-25-08, 06:50 PM	The CRs range from 16-25, although looking at those creatures...CRs have been artificially reduced, ala dragons. In my opinion it is worthwhile. Thanks. How far do you think the CRs have been reduced? Are the elder evils all aberrations? Thanks. :)
Kain_Darkwind 01-26-08, 01:49 AM	Thanks. How far do you think the CRs have been reduced? I don't really know. Some of them look low by at least 4 points, some by 8. Some seem fairly done. Are the elder evils all aberrations? Thanks. :) No. Aspect of Atropus is undead, and many of them are outsiders.
Thorsbjorn 01-26-08, 05:47 AM	I don't really know. Some of them look low by at least 4 points, some by 8. Some seem fairly done. No. Aspect of Atropus is undead, and many of them are outsiders. Ah, ok, thanks! :)
Kain_Darkwind 01-26-08, 12:53 PM	Ah, ok, thanks! :) Plus, each Evil has two 'minions' that are about 2 CR points lower than the Evil itself. There are humanoid, giant, undead, aberration and possibly outsider minions stated.
Thorsbjorn 01-26-08, 04:48 PM	Plus, each Evil has two 'minions' that are about 2 CR points lower than the Evil itself. There are humanoid, giant, undead, aberration and possibly outsider minions stated. Oh, wow, that's great! I had heard something negative about Elder Evils before, but based on what you're said here I've added it to my Amazon.com Wish List with high priority. I can always use more epic and near-epic creatures for my campaign. Thank you very much! :tiphat: Speaking of near-epic, does anyone have any thoughts on the CR of the obsidian golem at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=982868? Thanks. :)
Senevri 01-27-08, 07:41 PM	Hm. Vivacious Summon Spamming?
Kain_Darkwind 01-27-08, 09:20 PM	Hm. Vivacious Summon Spamming? I'm entirely not certain what this is in regards to. Perhaps if you could be more specific? Or maybe you posted this intending for it to be on a different thread...?
NoldorForce 01-27-08, 09:42 PM	Vivacious creatures are mentioned in the Planar Handbook. The template itself makes a creature incorporeal and gives them an aura similar to the Positive Energy Plane (Death by Awesome). And you can summon them if you wish. 'Course, it doesn't work on multiple counts. -Atropus is undead. Thus I believe (I don't have the template in front of me) that it would just be a slow hit point drain. -Atropus can still use Zone of Death to blast incorporeal creatures, nuking the aura and dealing lots of damage. -Atropus can also use its slam to deal lots of Constitution drain. Incorporeal creatures are immune to damage from nonmagical weapons, but not other effects from them.
Thorsbjorn 01-27-08, 09:57 PM	Vivacious creatures are mentioned in the Planar Handbook. The template itself makes a creature incorporeal and gives them an aura similar to the Positive Energy Plane (Death by Awesome). And you can summon them if you wish. 'Course, it doesn't work on multiple counts. -Atropus is undead. Thus I believe (I don't have the template in front of me) that it would just be a slow hit point drain. -Atropus can still use Zone of Death to blast incorporeal creatures, nuking the aura and dealing lots of damage. -Atropus can also use its slam to deal lots of Constitution drain. Incorporeal creatures are immune to damage from nonmagical weapons, but not other effects from them. There's some sort of rule that if a weapon doesn't successfully penetrate a creature's damage reduce that the weapon's special damage doesn't affect the creature either, such as if using a non-magical poisoned weapon you do 5 points of damage to a creature that has DR 10/magic you don't inflict the poison damage. I think it varies with the type of damage so that, for instance a non-sliver flaming sword still does its fire damage to a creature with DR 10/silver even if the weapon itself inflicts only 5 points and does no weapon damage (I think). Does anyone have this particular rule handy? Since I can't recall the exact form of the rule I'm not sure whether it would prohibit Atropus from draining Constitution from an incorporeal creature it can't touch, but it sounds like a likely candidate. :)
Senevri 01-27-08, 10:09 PM	...Atropus's weapon (slam) isn't magic, so it doesn't hit, at all. However, positive and negative energy both directly affect incorporeal, so I guess it doesn't work. But still, bringing the pep to atropus isn't a bad idea. Maybe something with planar bubbles? Still, it'd take too, too long for it to die. An 1d2 crusader, an infinite damage sacrifice Cosmic Descryer and other things that can manage an arbitrary size check are the only things that can do it, really. If you could get an infinite or way high Concentration check, you could use that 2x concentration strike, too. Ideally, I would like some sort of a geometric spammable effect.
Thorsbjorn 01-27-08, 10:45 PM	...Atropus's weapon (slam) isn't magic, so it doesn't hit, at all. However, positive and negative energy both directly affect incorporeal, so I guess it doesn't work. But still, bringing the pep to atropus isn't a bad idea. Maybe something with planar bubbles? Still, it'd take too, too long for it to die. An 1d2 crusader, an infinite damage sacrifice Cosmic Descryer and other things that can manage an arbitrary size check are the only things that can do it, really. If you could get an infinite or way high Concentration check, you could use that 2x concentration strike, too. Ideally, I would like some sort of a geometric spammable effect. I would think that if the creature needs to touch in order to drain, that it can't drain if it can't touch. What do you mean by spammable?
Kain_Darkwind 01-27-08, 11:43 PM	...Atropus's weapon (slam) isn't magic, so it doesn't hit, at all. Cosmic subtype means its natural weapons count as epic magic weapons for the purpose of DR, regen and incorporeality. (Or any other purpose where those weapons are treated special and normal solid weapons aren't.)
Senevri 01-28-08, 12:55 PM	What do you mean by spammable? Repeatable. Like an at-will SLA, or a Martial Strike. Geometric, Something like, on 1st round, you do something that causes, say 1 point of damage. On next round, 2. Then 4, 8, 16, 32 etc. Cosmic subtype means its natural weapons count as epic magic weapons for the purpose of DR, regen and incorporeality. (Or any other purpose where those weapons are treated special and normal solid weapons aren't.) Roight. a 50% miss chance, then.
Kain_Darkwind 01-28-08, 02:23 PM	Roight. a 50% miss chance, then. Yes. Assuming they don't have something to decrease that, like Spectral Strike or a ghost touch weapon. For Atropus, he would have a 50% chance to miss an incorporeal creature with his slam attack.
rob_douglas 01-30-08, 06:04 PM	Unless Dicefreaks changed it, Mass Life and Death is not a death effect. Life and Death is, but Mass Life and Death gives out an untyped effect See the Note: under Mass Life and Death: "The ability is otherwise identical with the Life and Death salient divine ability." It is still a death effect, and still subject to Death Ward. ROB
Kain_Darkwind 07-21-08, 02:45 PM	Father Llymic (http://dicefreaks.forumz.cc/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5&start=263) Well, I finally got Daddy Llymic up and running. Not sure how this topic ended up in the 'class and class features' boards though.
Thorsbjorn 07-21-08, 02:51 PM	Father Llymic (http://dicefreaks.forumz.cc/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5&start=263) Well, I finally got Daddy Llymic up and running. Not sure how this topic ended up in the 'class and class features' boards though. Yeah, when they dumped the 3.5 board into "D&D Previous Editions" they broke up the epic boards into little tiny pieces so that there's no longer an epic community here like there used to be. Frankly I'm more surprised that they're keeping 3.5 board at all than that they screwed up the epic portion of the 3.5 boards.