epic fist of raziel [Archive] - Wizards Community

epic fist of raziel [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SambleBamble
04-16-07, 07:57 PM Has anyone prepared an epic progression for the fist of raziel? I've had a look around, but can't see anything.
Krispieman
04-17-07, 06:36 AM Just because I love doing these things, and they're so easy to do:

Epic Fist of Raziel
To oppose great evil, there need to be great champions of good. Epic Fists of Raziel fill this role, battling with the most severe evil forces like none other can do.
Hit Die: d10
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Spellcasting: An epic Fist of Raziel's caster level increases by 1 for every level she takes. She does not however gain any new spells or other benefits.
Magic Circle (Su): An epic Fist of Raziel continues to be surrounded by a magic circle against evil with a caster level equal to his Character level.
Smite Evil (Su): An epic Fist of Raziel may Smite one extra time per day at 11th level and every 2 levels thereafter (13th, 15th, 17th, etc)
Bonus Feats: An epic Fist of Raziel gains one bonus feat at every 4th levels beyond 10th (14th, 18th, 22nd, etc)
Epic Fist of Raziel bonus feat list: <TBA>

Level Special
11 Smite Evil 6/day
12
13 Smite Evil 7/day
14 Bonus Feat
15 Smite Evil 8/day
16
17 Smite Evil 9/day
18 Bonus Feat
19 Smite Evil 10/day
20

K-man :cool:
rob_douglas
04-18-07, 05:11 PM The biggest balance issue with Epic Fists is that their core Smite progression totally trumps Epic Paladins, and Divine Emissaries.

Pre-epic, a 19th level Fist (Paladin 10, Fist 9) has 8 smites/day, and a Paladin 20 has 5.

At Epic, a 30th level paladin has 7 vs a Fists 13 - and it keeps getting worse, as the Fist gets 1/2 levels, and the Paladin gets 1/5. Divine Emissary gets them every 3 levels, but doesn't start until at least 26th level overall, so Paladin 25/DivEm5 gets 9 smites at 30th level.

I would suggest slowing the progression to 1/4 levels (basically half as often). It is a primary smiting class, but with Great Smiting, this class could get to Smiting nearly every attack. Maybe that isn't so bad since they have no other scaling abilities....

ROB
SambleBamble
04-18-07, 10:39 PM Just because I love doing these things, and they're so easy to do:

K-man :cool:

This is kind of the obvious thing to do, but to me it looks a bit bland. I've never done one of these before, so this will probably turn out terribly, but what about something like:

Magic Circle (Su): An epic Fist of Raziel continues to be surrounded by a magic circle against evil with a caster level equal to his Character level. At level 11 and every 10 levels thereafter (11th, 21st, 31st), the resistance and deflection bonus increases by +2 (+1?).

At low levels the magic circle is very nice, but I imagine by the time you're at character level 30, you won't care about a +2 resistance effect and +2 deflection: you would most likely have some other way of getting something much better.

Smite Evil (Su): An epic Fist of Raziel may Smite one extra time per day at 11th level and every 2 levels thereafter (13th, 15th, 17th, etc)

Holy Martial Strike (Su): at 15th level and every 5 levels thereafter (20th, 25th, etc), an epic Fist of Raziel's holy martial strike damage increases by d6 (3d6 at 15th, 4d6 at 20th etc)

Compare with the similar celestial paragon ability.

I'm unsure how many bonus feats would be appropriate now? I think that the more useful powers are the smite and holy strike, whereas the magic circle is less exciting. I'm inclined to keep 1/4 but then I'm the player!

As for Rob's concern about the number of smites, the extra smite feat gives you 2 more smites. I haven't seen an epic feat version of this, but you could easily set up a custom one that gave you maybe 4 extra smites. If the paladin has 1 bonus feat every 3 levels and the fist has one every 4, then the paladin could use the extra feat once every 12 levels to get epic extra smite and easily keep up.

Sam.
Krispieman
04-19-07, 04:40 AM This is kind of the obvious thing to do, but to me it looks a bit bland.Epic progressions often are bland. The entire idea behind them is to continue those features that have a regularity (once every X levels) and based on that add an epic feat progression.I've never done one of these before, so this will probably turn out terribly, but what about something like:

Magic Circle (Su): <snip>
At low levels the magic circle is very nice, but I imagine by the time you're at character level 30, you won't care about a +2 resistance effect and +2 deflection: you would most likely have some other way of getting something much better. I think the biggest boon of Magic Circle is the mind-control prevention. The resistance and deflection bonuses don't do much from about level 10. There's also no basis for increasing them except the idea that they should provide a bigger bonus.Holy Martial Strike (Su): <snip>
Compare with the similar celestial paragon ability.I actually never really compare the progression of one class to another (maybe I should, but that's a different discussion). Increasing the damage by d6 every 5 levels is really powerful. The extra damage is on every attack vs. an evil creature. Though potentially it could be argued to go from "Holy" to "Holy Power", I see no reason to increase this except the aforementioned idea that it has to "because it's Epic".I'm unsure how many bonus feats would be appropriate now? I think that the more useful powers are the smite and holy strike, whereas the magic circle is less exciting. I'm inclined to keep 1/4 but then I'm the player!With your progression I'd have to say 1/6. But then again, I wouldn't use yours because it's somewhat unbalanced.

For Rob: Before I alter the Fist's Smite progression, let's compare its progression to that of the Paladin.Fist Paladin
+1 CL/lvl +1 CL/2 lvls
+1 Smite/2 lvls +1 Smite/5 lvls
+1 Epic feat/4 lvls +1 Epic feat/3 lvls
Lay on Hands
Special MountI left out the Fist's Magic Circle effect as it's based on Character level, so any class will increase it, even if it doesn't do much, and the Paladin's Turn Undead because it doesn't add much.

So while the Fist clearly "wins" with CL and Smites, the Paladin gets more feats, which can be all the difference, and also increases it's Lay on Hands and Special Mount.

In the long run, the Fist is probably the more "powerful" character, but that's also true in the short run, mainly because the Fist is an Exalted class, which are all rather more powerful than normal. I'd have to say that I feel my progression is fine, with the only change maybe worth considering being the frequency of epic feats. I can see 1/5 as still being balanced, because of the speed of its Smites.

K-man :cool:
SambleBamble
04-20-07, 03:53 AM Epic progressions often are bland. The entire idea behind them is to continue those features that have a regularity (once every X levels) and based on that add an epic feat progression.

Fair enough, I guess. The magic circle thing might as well stay fixed, but I like the holy strike. It emphasises the character's theme of power against evil.

As for its balance, you should compare with other classes: how can anything be balanced in isolation? The rogue gets +1d6 sneak attack every 2 levels, and the celestial paragon +1d6 holy every 4. It's not outrageous.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts.
Elessar Alpha
04-22-07, 06:09 PM Question (because I'm playing a Holy Crusader right now [which is fist of Raziel with no spellcasting benefits of requirements]) : Does Holy Martial Strike stack with weapon abilities, the Holy Strike Epic feat, etc? Should it be halfway?
SambleBamble
04-22-07, 08:21 PM Question (because I'm playing a Holy Crusader right now [which is fist of Raziel with no spellcasting benefits of requirements]) : Does Holy Martial Strike stack with weapon abilities, the Holy Strike Epic feat, etc? Should it be halfway?

Treat it as though the character got the Holy Strike feat. It does not stack.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SambleBamble 04-16-07, 07:57 PM	Has anyone prepared an epic progression for the fist of raziel? I've had a look around, but can't see anything.
Krispieman 04-17-07, 06:36 AM	Just because I love doing these things, and they're so easy to do: Epic Fist of Raziel To oppose great evil, there need to be great champions of good. Epic Fists of Raziel fill this role, battling with the most severe evil forces like none other can do. Hit Die: d10 Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier. Spellcasting: An epic Fist of Raziel's caster level increases by 1 for every level she takes. She does not however gain any new spells or other benefits. Magic Circle (Su): An epic Fist of Raziel continues to be surrounded by a magic circle against evil with a caster level equal to his Character level. Smite Evil (Su): An epic Fist of Raziel may Smite one extra time per day at 11th level and every 2 levels thereafter (13th, 15th, 17th, etc) Bonus Feats: An epic Fist of Raziel gains one bonus feat at every 4th levels beyond 10th (14th, 18th, 22nd, etc) Epic Fist of Raziel bonus feat list: <TBA> Level Special 11 Smite Evil 6/day 12 13 Smite Evil 7/day 14 Bonus Feat 15 Smite Evil 8/day 16 17 Smite Evil 9/day 18 Bonus Feat 19 Smite Evil 10/day 20 K-man :cool:
rob_douglas 04-18-07, 05:11 PM	The biggest balance issue with Epic Fists is that their core Smite progression totally trumps Epic Paladins, and Divine Emissaries. Pre-epic, a 19th level Fist (Paladin 10, Fist 9) has 8 smites/day, and a Paladin 20 has 5. At Epic, a 30th level paladin has 7 vs a Fists 13 - and it keeps getting worse, as the Fist gets 1/2 levels, and the Paladin gets 1/5. Divine Emissary gets them every 3 levels, but doesn't start until at least 26th level overall, so Paladin 25/DivEm5 gets 9 smites at 30th level. I would suggest slowing the progression to 1/4 levels (basically half as often). It is a primary smiting class, but with Great Smiting, this class could get to Smiting nearly every attack. Maybe that isn't so bad since they have no other scaling abilities.... ROB
SambleBamble 04-18-07, 10:39 PM	Just because I love doing these things, and they're so easy to do: K-man :cool: This is kind of the obvious thing to do, but to me it looks a bit bland. I've never done one of these before, so this will probably turn out terribly, but what about something like: Magic Circle (Su): An epic Fist of Raziel continues to be surrounded by a magic circle against evil with a caster level equal to his Character level. At level 11 and every 10 levels thereafter (11th, 21st, 31st), the resistance and deflection bonus increases by +2 (+1?). At low levels the magic circle is very nice, but I imagine by the time you're at character level 30, you won't care about a +2 resistance effect and +2 deflection: you would most likely have some other way of getting something much better. Smite Evil (Su): An epic Fist of Raziel may Smite one extra time per day at 11th level and every 2 levels thereafter (13th, 15th, 17th, etc) Holy Martial Strike (Su): at 15th level and every 5 levels thereafter (20th, 25th, etc), an epic Fist of Raziel's holy martial strike damage increases by d6 (3d6 at 15th, 4d6 at 20th etc) Compare with the similar celestial paragon ability. I'm unsure how many bonus feats would be appropriate now? I think that the more useful powers are the smite and holy strike, whereas the magic circle is less exciting. I'm inclined to keep 1/4 but then I'm the player! As for Rob's concern about the number of smites, the extra smite feat gives you 2 more smites. I haven't seen an epic feat version of this, but you could easily set up a custom one that gave you maybe 4 extra smites. If the paladin has 1 bonus feat every 3 levels and the fist has one every 4, then the paladin could use the extra feat once every 12 levels to get epic extra smite and easily keep up. Sam.
Krispieman 04-19-07, 04:40 AM	This is kind of the obvious thing to do, but to me it looks a bit bland.Epic progressions often are bland. The entire idea behind them is to continue those features that have a regularity (once every X levels) and based on that add an epic feat progression.I've never done one of these before, so this will probably turn out terribly, but what about something like: Magic Circle (Su): <snip> At low levels the magic circle is very nice, but I imagine by the time you're at character level 30, you won't care about a +2 resistance effect and +2 deflection: you would most likely have some other way of getting something much better. I think the biggest boon of Magic Circle is the mind-control prevention. The resistance and deflection bonuses don't do much from about level 10. There's also no basis for increasing them except the idea that they should provide a bigger bonus.Holy Martial Strike (Su): <snip> Compare with the similar celestial paragon ability.I actually never really compare the progression of one class to another (maybe I should, but that's a different discussion). Increasing the damage by d6 every 5 levels is really powerful. The extra damage is on every attack vs. an evil creature. Though potentially it could be argued to go from "Holy" to "Holy Power", I see no reason to increase this except the aforementioned idea that it has to "because it's Epic".I'm unsure how many bonus feats would be appropriate now? I think that the more useful powers are the smite and holy strike, whereas the magic circle is less exciting. I'm inclined to keep 1/4 but then I'm the player!With your progression I'd have to say 1/6. But then again, I wouldn't use yours because it's somewhat unbalanced. For Rob: Before I alter the Fist's Smite progression, let's compare its progression to that of the Paladin.Fist Paladin +1 CL/lvl +1 CL/2 lvls +1 Smite/2 lvls +1 Smite/5 lvls +1 Epic feat/4 lvls +1 Epic feat/3 lvls Lay on Hands Special MountI left out the Fist's Magic Circle effect as it's based on Character level, so any class will increase it, even if it doesn't do much, and the Paladin's Turn Undead because it doesn't add much. So while the Fist clearly "wins" with CL and Smites, the Paladin gets more feats, which can be all the difference, and also increases it's Lay on Hands and Special Mount. In the long run, the Fist is probably the more "powerful" character, but that's also true in the short run, mainly because the Fist is an Exalted class, which are all rather more powerful than normal. I'd have to say that I feel my progression is fine, with the only change maybe worth considering being the frequency of epic feats. I can see 1/5 as still being balanced, because of the speed of its Smites. K-man :cool:
SambleBamble 04-20-07, 03:53 AM	Epic progressions often are bland. The entire idea behind them is to continue those features that have a regularity (once every X levels) and based on that add an epic feat progression. Fair enough, I guess. The magic circle thing might as well stay fixed, but I like the holy strike. It emphasises the character's theme of power against evil. As for its balance, you should compare with other classes: how can anything be balanced in isolation? The rogue gets +1d6 sneak attack every 2 levels, and the celestial paragon +1d6 holy every 4. It's not outrageous. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts.
Elessar Alpha 04-22-07, 06:09 PM	Question (because I'm playing a Holy Crusader right now [which is fist of Raziel with no spellcasting benefits of requirements]) : Does Holy Martial Strike stack with weapon abilities, the Holy Strike Epic feat, etc? Should it be halfway?
SambleBamble 04-22-07, 08:21 PM	Question (because I'm playing a Holy Crusader right now [which is fist of Raziel with no spellcasting benefits of requirements]) : Does Holy Martial Strike stack with weapon abilities, the Holy Strike Epic feat, etc? Should it be halfway? Treat it as though the character got the Holy Strike feat. It does not stack.