Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Old_Troll 02-19-08, 12:50 PM	Just wanted to find out if anyone enforced the need for Epic Heighten rather than just letting spell casters use the Heighten feat with Increase Spell Capacity levels, as well as their reasoning for adhering to RAW for this. (Other than they simply adhere to RAW).
Ascariat 02-19-08, 02:18 PM	In my game to increase a spell above 9th level you need to use Epic Heighten. The reason for this was I have had payers who tried to abuse heighten and It was a way of restricting it.
Old_Troll 02-19-08, 02:29 PM	Would you mind describing how they abused it? So using Epic Heighten means one more feat they must get to heighten their spells beyond 9th, huh? Annoying, but not too restricting unless you mean that they must take it for each level above 9th. ie: taken three times it they want to heighten a spell to 12th level.
Ascariat 02-19-08, 02:35 PM	You are correct I have had to make Epic Heighten spell work for only 1 spell level above 9th for each time the feat is taken. The reason for this is I have had a number of players who have used (until caught) heighten and Epic heighten to augment spells that were already augmented by other metamagic feats. Example Preparing a Heightened Maxamized Quickened Fireball as a 10th level spell, and then using the save DC of a 10th level spell. I have had aleast 5 different people do this although to be fair 2 of them corrected the problem after it was brought to their attention because they had read the feat incorrectly.
CrimsonDeath 02-19-08, 05:16 PM	You are correct I have had to make Epic Heighten spell work for only 1 spell level above 9th for each time the feat is taken. The reason for this is I have had a number of players who have used (until caught) heighten and Epic heighten to augment spells that were already augmented by other metamagic feats. Example Preparing a Heightened Maxamized Quickened Fireball as a 10th level spell, and then using the save DC of a 10th level spell. I have had aleast 5 different people do this although to be fair 2 of them corrected the problem after it was brought to their attention because they had read the feat incorrectly. Sounds like you could fix that problem just by enforcing the normal metamagic rules. A Quickened Maximized Fireball Heightened to 10th level would require a 17th level spell slot (and totally isn't worth one).
Ascariat 02-19-08, 05:34 PM	I have tried just enforcing the metamagic rules but I am running the game for high school students that seem to be trying to find inventive ways of cheating. If I had another group i would quit this one but i guess i'm a glutton for punishment.
BigGus 02-19-08, 07:40 PM	I don't require Epic Heighten to go beyond 9th level, and I think a lot of other people don't either. I've seen a lot of comments like "other metamagic feats work past 9th level, so why doesn't Heighten Spell?". Personally I don't use it because in my experience it's not that useful a feat; a lot of players don't even bother taking Heighten Spell in the first place because they've got better things to spend their feats on. Then again, I haven't had much of a problem with players cheating. Of the 15 or so players I've had, there's probably only 2 or 3 of them I'd even suspect of it.
rob_douglas 02-20-08, 12:00 AM	Heighten is greatly worth it, and Epic Heighten is totally necessary too. Those are great ways to get decent save DCs. I know, many people would say you can't beat the save bonuses in trying to ramp up the save DC, and that is why they don't agree with Heighten. I like Heighten a lot for sorcerers - it gives you more freedom to take some lower level spells and Heighten them to your higher slots to get the save DC when needed. Epic Heighten does the same. ROB
archerpwr 02-20-08, 01:22 AM	Unless you're a shadowcraft mage you shouldn't be using heighten in the first place, let alone epic heighten. Epic heighten is needed to keep SCMs in reign a bit pre-epic
Axiomatic_vampire 02-20-08, 01:56 AM	Sounds like you could fix that problem just by enforcing the normal metamagic rules. A Quickened Maximized Fireball Heightened to 10th level would require a 17th level spell slot (and totally isn't worth one). Heighten debate again? Anyone? It's always good times, and no one EVER gets sick of it.
Old_Troll 02-20-08, 10:17 AM	If you live long enough, AV, everything old becomes new again. Entertains the young and makes the old feel superior.
larry_the_titan 02-20-08, 11:44 AM	Wait people consider Epic Heighten Overpowered??? Hmm, I think that epic spells kinda of make the casting of spells over 9th level useless. Maybe its just me.
Kain_Darkwind 02-20-08, 12:03 PM	Wait people consider Epic Heighten Overpowered??? Hmm, I think that epic spells kinda of make the casting of spells over 9th level useless. Maybe its just me. Unless you've ever tried to afford a decent epic spell and still remain within wealth limits. Which of course will become obsolete as you move on, unlike 1-9th level spells that can be augmented into usefulness via metamagic.
TheDarkestOfAngels 02-25-08, 08:10 PM	Why indeed? Personally, I find epic heighten spell (and augmented alchemy) to be two invariably useless feats. I've houseruled that epic heighten be folded into the 'normal' heighten spell, so you only need heighten spell to heighten any spell you know to any spell level you can cast.\ Augmented alchemy is just folded into the skill, eliminating the need for the feat entirely. This is just my solution, however, as I find both feats fairly stupid.
Solaria 03-05-08, 12:04 AM	I have tried just enforcing the metamagic rules but I am running the game for high school students that seem to be trying to find inventive ways of cheating. If I had another group i would quit this one but i guess i'm a glutton for punishment. You should have made an example of the first person to cheat. A spell is only heightened by the number of levels the heighten raises it. This is how it is supposed to work, I think requiring them to get the feat once per level of spell over 9th is uncalled for. You're punishing people who use the rules properly, instead of punishing the cheaters. Please note that saving throws increase every 2 HD above level 20. Players will not be able to keep up, even using heighten and increasing int to raise their spell DCs. Eventually everything will automatically save, which makes wizards less and less relevant, because they gain more spells much more slowly than creatures will continue to gain HP.
TheCobra 03-09-08, 10:14 AM	Eventually everything will automatically save, which makes wizards less and less relevant, because they gain more spells much more slowly than creatures will continue to gain HP. Depends. Casters still control the most powerful resource: epic spells. A party with access to epic spells would roll over an equal-level party not using them.
Kain_Darkwind 03-13-08, 09:13 PM	Depends. Casters still control the most powerful resource: epic spells. A party with access to epic spells would roll over an equal-level party not using them. Nonsense. Epic Spells cost gold just like magic items. A party with no epic spells doesn't just have a spellcaster with a free feat, they have hundreds of thousands of more gold to spend on epic items.
Frozen_Flame 03-14-08, 09:58 AM	Nonsense. Epic Spells cost gold just like magic items. A party with no epic spells doesn't just have a spellcaster with a free feat, they have hundreds of thousands of more gold to spend on epic items. Think about it... With the right planing you could decimate a your foes. Also epic spell are one time costs, compared to the frequent need to update items.
Kain_Darkwind 03-14-08, 11:34 AM	Think about it... With the right planing you could decimate a your foes. Yes, that applies for those with or without epic spells. It applies to 2nd level games as much as 200th level games. It isn't exactly a tag line for epic spell supremacy. Also epic spell are one time costs, compared to the frequent need to update items. Hogwash. A DC 37 epic spell when you are capable of getting DC 100 is nothing more than a cantrip, just like a 25th level fighter doesn't get impressed over a +2 longsword. The fact that an epic spell doesn't scale with level means that the effect is always locked in at that point. Deathspell capable of killing 50HD? Better not run into something 51HD or you are writing up a new spell. Had a +5 DC boost? Too bad everything saves against it now. 40d20 damage? You must be joking around, using epic magic instead of metamagic for direct damage. And unlike magic items, which can be 'improved' for the difference in cost between the old and the improved version, epic spells can't be, they must be rewritten from scratch. If you are a 50th level wizard, with (let's just say) 30 million gold pieces in suggested treasure (we're going to assume the DM is using suggested treasure limits), and you have spent 10 million on epic spells, it doesn't matter if you spent that money at 25th level, you still only have 20 million gold pieces of magical item treasure. Epic spells are powerful, no doubt. They are not the magic ticket of epic however. The entire system largely fails at what it intends to do anyways and reduces this mighty magic's role in combat to producing large ability buffs.
Gemstone 03-14-08, 07:04 PM	How does one abuse heighten? :S anyone care to explain?
CrimsonDeath 03-15-08, 04:56 AM	How does one abuse heighten? :S anyone care to explain? The combination of Earth Spell, Silent Image, and Shadowcraft Mage is the best way I've seen it done. Slightly better with Gnome Illusionist sub level 1. Depending on how the Dm interprets it to interact with Heighten, Residual Metamagic could let you get more mileage out of low-level spell slots. Earth Spell Heightens the spell one level past the spell slot you use, Shadowcraft Mage can turn figments (such as Silent Image) into Shadow Evocations and Shadow Conjurations one level lower than the spell's actual level (that is, the level of the spell slot used), and Earth Spell also increases your caster level by the number of spell levels the spell is Heightened (with an original spell level of 0 if you use the sub level). The spell allows a Will save to disbelieve, but by certain readings of the ability, the spell is actually more effective against targets that disbelieve it if it's high enough level. It also allows SR, but it's being cast with at a caster level a fair amount higher than the character's actual caster level, so SR may be trivial.