Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aleolus 12-26-07, 07:05 PM	OK, just to clairify, a Wizard or Sorcerer who hits epic levels casts epic spells by making a spellcraft check against various DCs depending on the spell he's wanting to do, correct? There's no limit on the number of times per day he can do this, correct? Which means, an epic Wizard with max possible ranks in Spellcraft (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=970577) can cast whatever he wants, whenever he wants, right?
BigGus 12-26-07, 08:04 PM	First point: correct. Second point: incorrect. Wizards & Sorcerers, like any other class, only get a number of epic spell slots per day equal to 1/10 their ranks in the relevant Knowledge score (Arcana for S/ W/ Bd, Religion for C/ P, Nature for D/ Ra). Third point: incorrect. Any epic spell whose Spellcraft DC is equal to their Spellcraft score +10 or less can be cast automatically (since they can take 10 on the check), but a new epic spell can have a DC up to their Spellcraft score +20 if desired. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:About_Epic_Spells
Davus Antonius 12-26-07, 08:11 PM	A epic spellcaster casts normal spells as usual but needs the epic feat Epic Spellcasting to cast epic spells. The spellcaster is limited in the number of epic spells she can cast by her ranks in the appropriate Knowledge skill, A spellcaster who can cast epic spells has a number of open epic spell slots per day equal to one-tenth his or her ranks in the Knowledge skill appropriate to the spell and the caster’s class. Knowledge (arcana) is appropriate for arcane casters, and Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature) is appropriate for divine casters. The rules for rest between casting a day’s allotment of epic spells are the same as for rest required to prepare standard spells. If the caster doesn’t use up a day’s allotment of epic spell slots, the unused slots remain available whether or not the spellcaster receives appropriate rest. So a 40th level caster with max ranks in the appropriate Knowledge skill can cast 4 epic spells per day. Even if the epic spell has been developed and an epic spell slot is available, successfully casting an epic spell isn’t assured. The caster’s Spellcraft skill modifier is vital for casting an epic spell. To cast an epic spell, a spellcaster makes a Spellcraft check against the epic spell’s Spellcraft DC. If the check succeeds, the spell is cast. If the caster fails the check, the epic spell fizzles and the epic spell slot is used for the day. This means that the above 40th level caster can only cast spells with a DC of 48. This may be raised bay various means so this DC is just the caster with no spells or magic items in use.
Aleolus 12-26-07, 09:33 PM	OK, thank you for clearing that up. However, with the 70-90 mod that the CO board came up with for a character with no more than a +1 LA and 20 levels of Wizard, casting those epic spells would still be pretty easy.
BigGus 12-26-07, 10:25 PM	This means that the above 40th level caster can only cast spells with a DC of 48. This may be raised bay various means so this DC is just the caster with no spells or magic items in use. Where does the DC of 48 come from? Surely a 40th-level caster with 43 ranks could cast spells with a DC of 53 automatically, or up to 63 with a roll of 20? OK, thank you for clearing that up. However, with the 70-90 mod that the CO board came up with for a character with no more than a +1 LA and 20 levels of Wizard, casting those epic spells would still be pretty easy. Yeah, a character well-optimised for Spellcraft could cast most of the epic spells in the ELH at L.21.
rob_douglas 12-27-07, 12:42 PM	I don't get the 40th level, DC48 either. 53 is the minimum with an INT of 10 (I assume this is a sorcerer then....) But one important thing you need to know about epic spells - they cost time, gold and XP to research to get them onto your "known epic spells" list so you can cast them. Once there, you have the slots, as above, and continue to cast either spontaneously (sorcerer, bard) or by memorizing (everyone else). There is no limit to how many spells you can know, other than the limits of time, gold, and XP you have available. That is why a well-optimized 21st level character still can't cast all the ELH spells - he can't afford them. ROB
Aluroon 12-27-07, 12:58 PM	Yeah, a character well-optimised for Spellcraft could cast most of the epic spells in the ELH at L.21. Does anyone actually read the ELH or Epic SRD around here before posting? Anyone? Anyone at all? No, a well-optimized wizard or sorcerer built specifically for casting epic spells cannot cast most spells in the epic level handbook at level 21. The reasons are numerous (from the Experience Costs being out of reach to the cost of development being far beyond what they can realistically front), but the most notable reason is the limit on backlash damage, 2d6 per hit die. Anything with more then 42d6 of backlash is out of reach. Lets also note the absurd cost of developing epic spells. Being able to cast a DC 200 epic spell is well and good, until you realize your spending literally millions of gold and thousands of experience points to even develop it. Generally speaking Epic Spells aren't even remotely feasible until the low 30's, and even then you likely won't have more then a couple due to the experience cost for developing them.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-27-07, 01:24 PM	OK, thank you for clearing that up. However, with the 70-90 mod that the CO board came up with for a character with no more than a +1 LA and 20 levels of Wizard, casting those epic spells would still be pretty easy. Yeah, the CO boards have a field day when in comes to the ELH because it's just so...well, COable. I myself prefer a saner epic system. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=966322)
Davus Antonius 12-27-07, 03:58 PM	Where does the DC of 48 come from? Surely a 40th-level caster with 43 ranks could cast spells with a DC of 53 automatically, or up to 63 with a roll of 20? 43 ranks + 5 ability mod = 48 Take a 10 on the roll and you can cast a spell with a DC of 58. I just used the skill ranks and ability mod in my calculations as there are tons of ways to increase this I'd probably forget a few. The only real limiting factors are the EXP and money required to develop epic spells. A DC 58 spell costs 522,000 gp and 20, 880 exp to develop, which is a sizable portion of the exp needed to advance a level until well into epic levels.
Aluroon 12-27-07, 06:09 PM	43 ranks + 5 ability mod = 48 Take a 10 on the roll and you can cast a spell with a DC of 58. I just used the skill ranks and ability mod in my calculations as there are tons of ways to increase this I'd probably forget a few. The only real limiting factors are the EXP and money required to develop epic spells. A DC 58 spell costs 522,000 gp and 20, 880 exp to develop, which is a sizable portion of the exp needed to advance a level until well into epic levels. If all you have is a +5 ability mode you have some trouble....
elondria420 12-28-07, 07:46 AM	43 ranks + 5 ability mod = 48 Take a 10 on the roll and you can cast a spell with a DC of 58. I just used the skill ranks and ability mod in my calculations as there are tons of ways to increase this I'd probably forget a few. The only real limiting factors are the EXP and money required to develop epic spells. A DC 58 spell costs 522,000 gp and 20, 880 exp to develop, which is a sizable portion of the exp needed to advance a level until well into epic levels. At level 40 a character has a +10 bonus ability score points (1 every 4 levels) which most spellcasters put into the ability score that determines their spell save DCs and bonus spells, and most spellcasters put their highest score onto that attribute as well. Assuming a 16 score at 1st level (which even on a point buy system isn't unreasonable for the character's most important attribute) that would give them a 26 base score at 40th level, and thusly at least a +8 bonus. Additionally unless you're running in an extremely low magic world (which is doubtful if you're talking about epic spells anyway) your character probably has some inherent bonus (such as from attribute books or from wishes) to their attribute as well. Seriously if you're 40th level and your attribute is only a +5 bonus you've got some serious problems that need to be addressed before you even think about researching and casting epic spells. As to the experience cost developing really expensive Epic Spells, do some research and determine the location of a Rod of Excellent Magic. It'll save you tens of thousands of xp, and you'll probably even gain xp on your quest to find it. :D
BigGus 12-28-07, 08:00 AM	Does anyone actually read the ELH or Epic SRD around here before posting? Anyone? Anyone at all? No, a well-optimized wizard or sorcerer built specifically for casting epic spells cannot cast most spells in the epic level handbook at level 21. The reasons are numerous (from the Experience Costs being out of reach to the cost of development being far beyond what they can realistically front), but the most notable reason is the limit on backlash damage, 2d6 per hit die. Anything with more then 42d6 of backlash is out of reach. Lets also note the absurd cost of developing epic spells. Being able to cast a DC 200 epic spell is well and good, until you realize your spending literally millions of gold and thousands of experience points to even develop it. Generally speaking Epic Spells aren't even remotely feasible until the low 30's, and even then you likely won't have more then a couple due to the experience cost for developing them. Note, I say could, not can, and cast, not develop. Since only 5 of the epic spells in the ELH have DCs of over 103, a 21st-level caster with a Spellcraft score of 90 could cast them, if he had developed them, or read them off a stone tablet provided by another (very generous) epic spellcaster. They couldn't develop epic spells with DCs over 58, as Rob says, because of the XP cost, but that doesn't mean they couldn't cast them. As for XP costs of casting, they're limited to 10,000XP (changed to 20,000XP in the errata) which is within the range of a 21st-level caster, although admittedly they wouldn't be casting it every day (but then again, neither would a 40th-level caster). And as for backlash, only one spell in the ELH has backlash of over 42d6, which is Vengeful Gaze of God, and that has a DC of 419, clearly putting it in the small group a 21st-level caster couldn't cast. So yes, I have read the ELH. Have you? Oh yeah, and as for "optimise", I'm English, and it's a valid spelling over here.
rob_douglas 12-28-07, 09:19 AM	He definitely said cast, and he said most, so that only needed 50% - so I took Gus at his word. As for the Spellcraft of a 21st level spellcaster, remember that Spellcraft uses INT, not your spellcasting ability score (though some folks use that as an alternative rule, and it is mentioned as an option in the ELH) so there is no reason to assume a Sorcerer would have an INT above 14 at 21st level (8 base + 6 item), if we are not assuming an optimal Epic Spellcaster - which would be the wizard with 16 start, +5 levels, +5 inherent, +6 item = 32 INT. Add in a +30 item, and max ranks and you have Spellcraft 65. That puts the vast majority in casting range, provided the Tablet scenario above. I wish the Stone Tablets were better handled - as they are, they really don't make sense to do. Like for instance - if you want to learn Epic Mage armor off a stone tablet, is it DC 46 to then cast it as the original spell, or DC 92, since that is the final DC of that spell on a Stone Tablet? I think they wanted to add an additional cost in development - basically allowing someone else to pay the development costs, but the mechanic is messy. ROB
Senevri 01-04-08, 07:55 PM	only one spell in the ELH has backlash of over 42d6, which is Vengeful Gaze of God, and that has a DC of 419, clearly putting it in the small group a 21st-level caster couldn't cast. Limited Wish to duplicate Delay Death + contingent Heal. (42d6 averages at 147, easily dealt by Heal.) The DC is trickier, but if you could boost your CL sufficiently, you could use limited wish to duplicate Improvisation. Easy at level 28, when you can be a Cosmic Descryer and gain Cosmic Connection, but below that, you'd need access to Consumptive Field, probably. In repeated castings. You'd need expanded necromancy knowledge - something like Wyrm Wizard, perhaps.
rob_douglas 01-05-08, 01:55 AM	You missed the point - the rules state you can't cast a spell where the backlash damage is greater than your HDx2. So a 21st level caster can't cast Vengeful Gaze of God regardless of how many HP he may have, it is just not allowed. DC is irrelevant in that case. Factor Spellcraft DC Modifier Backlash 1d6 points of damage (max d6 = caster’s HD ×2) -1 The caster cannot somehow avoid or make him or her self immune to backlash damage. For spells with durations longer than instantaneous, the backlash damage is per round. If backlash damage kills a caster, no spell or method exists that will return life to the caster’s body without costing the caster a level—not even wish, true resurrection, miracle, or epic spells that return life to the deceased. Spells that normally penalize the recipient one level when they return him or her to life penalize a caster killed by backlash two levels. ROB
Senevri 01-05-08, 09:06 AM	er, no. Maximum backlash is 2xCaster's HD. 2x21=42. So, yes I can cast that VGoG, if I can make the DC check.
BigGus 01-05-08, 07:10 PM	Vengeful Gaze of God Transmutation Spellcraft DC: 419 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 12,000 ft. Target: One creature, or up to a 10-foot cube of nonliving matter in line of sight Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude half Spell Resistance: Yes To Develop: 3,771,000 gp; 76 days; 150,840 XP. Seed: destroy (DC 29). Factor: increase damage to 305d6 (+570 DC), 1-action casting time (+20 DC). Mitigating factor: 200d6 backlash (–200 DC). The target of this spell is subject to 305d6 points of damage (or half of that if a Fortitude save succeeds). If the target is reduced to –10 hit points or less (or a construct, object, or undead is reduced to 0 hit points), it is utterly destroyed as if disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. The caster is likewise dealt 200d6 points of damage Since VGoG does 200d6 backlash, the minimum HD a caster needs is 100. So a 21st-level caster can only cast it if they have 79HD from other classes, racial HD etc.
Senevri 01-05-08, 07:19 PM	Well, okay then.
TheCobra 01-12-08, 11:01 PM	Generally speaking Epic Spells aren't even remotely feasible until the low 30's, and even then you likely won't have more then a couple due to the experience cost for developing them. Not if you use the appropriate mitigating factors. With those, you can enjoy epic spells well before level 30.
runestar 01-12-08, 11:24 PM	At lv21, you should be able to research epic mage armour (dc28 because of 10-minute casting time) and a buff spell granting ~+16 enhancement bonus to a stat (probably con). Their duration should last at least a day each, which is perfect considering you just have 2 epic slots. And at +2dc, you can make them area-affect, meaning they benefit the whole party. The xp cost is negligible (and you will earn them back eventually anyways), it is the gp cost that is more prohibitive. You might want to consider asking your other party members to chip in to defray the costs of researching them, since they will be the beneficiaries as well.:)
TheCobra 01-13-08, 01:03 AM	Asking the party's divine caster to throw in a spell or two might also be reasonable. Assuming, of course, the DM allows such mitigating factors.