Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CelestialBarbarian 03-25-07, 01:43 PM	I'm creating an epic-level minotaur to play the roll of the ultimate badguy in an adventure for the high-level characters in the campaign I run. I could simply give the minotaur levels in a class, say barbarian, to raise his CR above 21. (I'm not sure exactly how high I want to go yet, other than at least 22, and probably a bit higher.) I was thinking though that I could add templates to make the epic minotaur more monstrous and less PCish. Here's what I have so far: Minotaur CR 4 + paragon template (+15 CR) + feral template (+1 CR) + monster of legend template (+2 CR) = CR 22. On top of that I might add a couple or few barbarian levels. Any suggestions? Thanks! :)
bluemage55 03-26-07, 02:20 AM	Generally, you want to have at least half as much HD as you have CR. Otherwise, the character can end up with severe discrepancies (the example minotaur you gave, prior to class levels, has a tiny amount of hit points).
CelestialBarbarian 03-26-07, 03:05 AM	Generally, you want to have at least half as much HD as you have CR. Otherwise, the character can end up with severe discrepancies (the example minotaur you gave, prior to class levels, has a tiny amount of hit points). Thanks. Doing this quickly: 1. Hit points: increase by 183 from 39 to 222; 2. Attack bonus: increases by +25 (luck) +13 (Strength) = +38 3. Damage bonus: increases by +20 (luck) +20 Strength) = +40 3a. on charge/gore increases another +13 for a total of +53 4. Save bonus: +10 (insight) +3 unnamed = +13 4a. Fort: +13 (Constitution) = +26 (for a total of +32) 4b. Reflex: +10 (Dexterity) = +23 (for a total of +28) 4c. Will: +8 (Wisdom) = +21 (for a total of +26) 5. SR: increases from nothing to 49 (higher than anyone in the party can beat) 6. Fast healing: increases from nothing to 20 7. DR goes from nothing to 10/epic (which nobody in the party can currently overcome, although they can certainly overpower) 8. AC: increases by +7 (natural) +12 (insight) +12 (luck) +10 (Dexterity) = +41 (from 14 to 55, which unbuffed the main melee specialist in the party would need a natural 21 to hit with his best iterative attack) 9. Special abilities: 9a. gains pounce (can charge to gore and make both axe attacks) 9b. spell-like abilities 3/day: greater dispel magic, haste, and see invisibility 9c. plus it acually can act hasted at all times 9d. immune to two of the following: acid, electricity, fear, polymorphing, or mind-affecting effects 9e. See in darkness 9f. Either cold or fire subytpe (and the corresponding immunity and weakness) 9g. Fire and cold resistance 10 9h. +10 competence bonus on all skill checks, and assorted bonuses, ranging from +8 to +13 from ability score increases, plus additional skill points for higher intelligence (64 extra skill points) 10. Feats: Improved Initiative, Multiattack, plus two others than can be epic feats (somehow the paragon mind flayer got 5 epic feats, which makes no sense under the paragon template rules, which add only two bonus feats). It looks like it would lose 1 feat, and its skill rank maximum would remain much lower. Other than that it appears to get much more than it would from 15 class levels. If it got 16 barbarian/frenzied berserker levels, and I added 3 of its 4 ability score increase to its Con, it would gain 174 hit points, 9 less than the 183 hit points from the three templates. So for most of its abilities the combination of the three templates will prove the minotaur with much better benefits than it would get from 15 class levels. Edit: I neglected to even mention giving the epic minotaur the benefit of wealth according to its ECL. It might have, for instance, a +5 vorpal greataxe, a +5 amulet of mighty fists (for the gore attack), a +5 cloak of resistance, a +5 ring of protection, etc. I mean it might not have each and every one of these things, but the point is that the magic items appropriate for a CR 22 encounter would make it even more powerful than I calculated above. :) Edit 2: I missed two of its best abilities (both from the monster of legend template): 9i. It has a permanent spell turning supernatural ability in effect! 9j. It regrows lost extremities in one round, so a vorpal effect can't kill it
runestar 03-26-07, 07:32 AM	Its stats look quite pathetic, IMO. Dr is negligible, fast healing isn't that great a threat, hp is too low, saves are respectable(but still a tad crummy), attack roll sucks, AC shouldn't be that hard to overcome(with a little creative stacking of various to-hit bonuses), assuming the wizard uses greater dispelling to suppress its magic gear. Sr is moot if your spellcasters use spells which eschew sr anyways. And if need be, sr49 isn't that hard to beat. Lv21 wizard, +6 spell penetration, +10 assay resistance, +1 orange ioun stone, +2 spell enhancer, take 10 arcane mastery = auto success every time. Spell turning cannot deflect ray spells. So unless I am missing something which grants it negative energy immunity, a twinned enervation + maximize metamagic rod (with quickened true strike if need be) will deal it 8 negative lvs. Now, how many HD did it have again...:P I agree that I would generally reserve the paragon template for monsters with a high HD:cr ratio, since these tend to be able to get the most benefit, as well as retaining resistance to HD-based effects. Ideally, their final cr should still be less than their total number of HD.
Starmage21 03-26-07, 08:48 AM	Its stats look quite pathetic, IMO. Dr is negligible, fast healing isn't that great a threat, hp is too low, saves are respectable(but still a tad crummy), attack roll sucks, AC shouldn't be that hard to overcome(with a little creative stacking of various to-hit bonuses), assuming the wizard uses greater dispelling to suppress its magic gear. Sr is moot if your spellcasters use spells which eschew sr anyways. And if need be, sr49 isn't that hard to beat. Lv21 wizard, +6 spell penetration, +10 assay resistance, +1 orange ioun stone, +2 spell enhancer, take 10 arcane mastery = auto success every time. Spell turning cannot deflect ray spells. So unless I am missing something which grants it negative energy immunity, a twinned enervation + maximize metamagic rod (with quickened true strike if need be) will deal it 8 negative lvs. Now, how many HD did it have again...:P I agree that I would generally reserve the paragon template for monsters with a high HD:cr ratio, since these tend to be able to get the most benefit, as well as retaining resistance to HD-based effects. Ideally, their final cr should still be less than their total number of HD. a Legendary Minotaur Barbarian would be a real bad mofo against your PCs. Having played a minotaur barbarian as a PC, they can be real badasses with enough HP to take a few spells from a blasty wizard or cleric.
CelestialBarbarian 03-26-07, 08:52 AM	Its stats look quite pathetic, IMO. Dr is negligible, fast healing isn't that great a threat, hp is too low, saves are respectable(but still a tad crummy), attack roll sucks, AC shouldn't be that hard to overcome(with a little creative stacking of various to-hit bonuses), assuming the wizard uses greater dispelling to suppress its magic gear. Have you had your morning coffee yet, runestar? :P Its hit points are actually slightly higher than what it would have if I gave it the best hit point class--18 levels of barbarian. Its attack rolls are substantially higher than if I gave it 18 levels of barbarian: +19 better (+38 increase vs. +19 increase). The damage bonus is +38 better than what it would get with 18 levels of barbarian, and that doesn't count the fact that with an attack bonus +19 better than the barbarian, it could simply add an extra +38 to its damage bonus with Power Attack. The saves are +18, +18 and and +16 better than what 18 levels of barbarian would provide. So the template build dominates on hit points, and overwhelmingly on attack bonus, damage and saving throws. Sr is moot if your spellcasters use spells which eschew sr anyways. None of their standard offensive spells ignore SR. Can you list some that do? And if need be, sr49 isn't that hard to beat. Lv21 wizard, +6 spell penetration, +10 assay resistance, +1 orange ioun stone, +2 spell enhancer, take 10 arcane mastery = auto success every time. They have none of these things. I already told you what they have to overcome SR. Spell turning cannot deflect ray spells. So unless I am missing something which grants it negative energy immunity, a twinned enervation + maximize metamagic rod (with quickened true strike if need be) will deal it 8 negative lvs. Now, how many HD did it have again...:P Since nobody in the party can overcome its SR, its number of hit dice are irrelevant, unless there's an a spell that inflicts negative levels but doesn't allow SR. Enervation allows SR. I agree that I would generally reserve the paragon template for monsters with a high HD:cr ratio, since these tend to be able to get the most benefit, as well as retaining resistance to HD-based effects. Ideally, their final cr should still be less than their total number of HD. The issue of whom the template most helps is irrelevant; the question is whether it helps this build more than the alternatives. While I started off thinking it didn't, it's looking increasingly like it does. I'll wait to see your list of spells that don't allow SR of course. :)
Aluroon 03-26-07, 09:02 AM	None of their standard offensive spells ignore SR. Can you list some that do? Only need 2. Forcecage and Cloudkill. Wow, what a crappy BBEG. Let me tell you how this fight will go (Assuming your PC spellcasters know what they are doing). Round 1: Minotaur: Runs in and savages a PC. Savaged PC: Backs away. Wizard PC: Force Cage. Round 2: Minotaur: Greater Dispel SLA hoping to take down the Forcecage. Savaged PC: Dances Wizard PC: Recasts Forcecage, or stands with it readied to cast again if the Minotaurs dispel failed to work. Round 3: Minotaur: Greater Dispel. Wizard: Forcecage. Round 4: Minotaur: Greater Dispel (Last one). Wizard: Forcecage. Round 5: Minotaur: Stands around frustrated. Wizard: Cloudkill #1. Round 6: Minotaur: Stands around taking Con Damage. Wizard: Cloudkill #2. Round 7: Minotaur: Stands around taking more Con Damage. Wizard: Cloudkill #3. Round 8: Minotaur: Stands around taking Con Damage. Wizard: Cloudkill #4. Ect. What a great encounter. Alternatively if you give it a necklace of Adaptation they take round 4 to Orb of Fire said Necklace, reducing it to ash, while ignoring your SR and spell turning.
CelestialBarbarian 03-26-07, 09:13 AM	Only need 2. Forcecage and Cloudkill. Wow, what a crappy BBEG. Let me tell you how this fight will go (Assuming your PC spellcasters know what they are doing). Round 1: Minotaur: Runs in and savages a PC. Savaged PC: Backs away. Wizard PC: Force Cage. Round 2: Minotaur: Greater Dispel SLA hoping to take down the Forcecage. Savaged PC: Dances Wizard PC: Recasts Forcecage, or stands with it readied to cast again if the Minotaurs dispel failed to work. Round 3: Minotaur: Greater Dispel. Wizard: Forcecage. Round 4: Minotaur: Greater Dispel (Last one). Wizard: Forcecage. Round 5: Minotaur: Stands around frustrated. Wizard: Cloudkill #1. Round 6: Minotaur: Stands around taking Con Damage. Wizard: Cloudkill #2. Round 7: Minotaur: Stands around taking more Con Damage. Wizard: Cloudkill #3. Round 8: Minotaur: Stands around taking Con Damage. Wizard: Cloudkill #4. Ect. What a great encounter. Alternatively if you give it a necklace of Adaptation they take round 4 to Orb of Fire said Necklace, reducing it to ash, while ignoring your SR and spell turning. Well it's a good thing that you know the PCs in my campaign better than I do. :D Ok, I'm not sure that the wizard even has one forcecage memorized, but I am sure that he doesn't have three. I'm also sure he doesn't have a cloud kill or an orb of fire. I also have to say that the players won't know what the minotaur is, other than a nasty-looking minotaur. They won't have the player knowledge that you and other posters have, so they won't simply be able to go after its weaknesses. This reminds me of a tarrasque thread where people bragged about how easily they killed a tarrasque when they had the PCs use player knowledge.
runestar 03-26-07, 09:28 AM	BTW, if its cr is 22, I think its sr will be 47, not 49. I am not sure if moment of prescience applies to caster lv checks made to overcome sr or not, but if it does, this should allow your next spell to automatically beat the paragon's minotaur's sr. Follow up with a twinned enervation or energy drain. Alternatively, if it survives but is left with 3 or less HD, then follow up with a cloudkill(though it shouldn't be that hard to acquire poison immunity). Or as mentioned earlier, trap it in a forcecage and spam cloudkill. It should have difficulty dispelling it with its SLAs(which are only caster lv15, IIRC). Is my thinking too simplistic? I just returned from a long day at school, so my brain might not be functioning straight. To some extent, I retract my earlier statement about the paragon minotaur being weak(after seeing your analysis). It can be strong, but still is not without some glaring weaknesses, which any enterprising player will not hesitate to take advantage of.
Starmage21 03-26-07, 09:36 AM	Force Cage is like Wall of Force. You cant dispel it at all(unless at casting you counterspell). You have to disintegrate it, at which point its automatic :D *edit* but if you wanna have the minotaur overcome the Forcecage easily, give him levels of Legendary Dreadnaught epic PrC.
dragon221284 03-26-07, 09:38 AM	Paragon gives you a SR = CR bevore the Templates added +25 = SR29 You should read more erata's and with so less HD its an easy fight Cleric in the Party casts assay resistance and a Holy Word :D
dragon221284 03-26-07, 09:39 AM	*edit* but if you wanna have the minotaur overcome the Forcecage easily, give him levels of Legendary Dreadnaught epic PrC. Prerequirement: Baseattack 23 and with these tones of templates.... forgot it!
User5127 03-26-07, 09:51 AM	Prerequirement: Baseattack 23 and with these tones of templates.... forgot it! I'm sure as DM he could rule 0 the prc, or even just add it as an indetesrting ability of this creature based on its massve strength. and increase its CR by 1.
Aluroon 03-26-07, 09:57 AM	Well it's a good thing that you know the PCs in my campaign better than I do. :D Ok, I'm not sure that the wizard even has one forcecage memorized, but I am sure that he doesn't have three. I'm also sure he doesn't have a cloud kill or an orb of fire. I also have to say that the players won't know what the minotaur is, other than a nasty-looking minotaur. They won't have the player knowledge that you and other posters have, so they won't simply be able to go after its weaknesses. This reminds me of a tarrasque thread where people bragged about how easily they killed a tarrasque when they had the PCs use player knowledge. So your pc's never use Know Opponent or other divinations on enemies? They don't prepare two of the best spells in the PHB (By ALL accounts)? Meh, serves them right if you turn them into swiss cheese.
CelestialBarbarian 03-26-07, 09:57 AM	BTW, if its cr is 22, I think its sr will be 47, not 49. I am not sure if moment of prescience applies to caster lv checks made to overcome sr or not, but if it does, this should allow your next spell to automatically beat the paragon's minotaur's sr. Follow up with a twinned enervation or energy drain. Alternatively, if it survives but is left with 3 or less HD, then follow up with a cloudkill(though it shouldn't be that hard to acquire poison immunity). Or as mentioned earlier, trap it in a forcecage and spam cloudkill. It should have difficulty dispelling it with its SLAs(which are only caster lv15, IIRC). Is my thinking too simplistic? I just returned from a long day at school, so my brain might not be functioning straight. To some extent, I retract my earlier statement about the paragon minotaur being weak(after seeing your analysis). It can be strong, but still is not without some glaring weaknesses, which any enterprising player will not hesitate to take advantage of. Well I don't know about simplistic. I do think your current characterization more accurately reflects the build. I think you're right about the SR equalling 47 rather than 49, but the 21st-level wizard can get no better than a 45 on a caster level check against SR. Moment of prescience doesn't apply to caster level checks, but even if it did, he doesn't have one. He also doesn't have the Twinned Spell feat, although I think the NPC sorceress does. She has an even lower maximum roll on a caster level check as she's a 20th level character with a +2 LA, making her an 18th-level caster. She can do no better than a 42 on a caster level check to overcome SR. Oh, no she took Split Ray instead of Twinned Spell. She could do a Split polar ray or disintegrate, but alas can't overcome its SR. I was, by the way, thinking of giving it a CR of higher than 22. 22 was just the result of adding the three templates. I was thinking of making the CR 25. So I might add 3 barbarian levels. I would be nice to scare the party with having it go into a rage. The drawback though is that it then can't use its spell-like abilities, and the greater dispel magic might be useful, especially if the wizard does have that one forcecage memorized. I'm not sure though that they can do much but contain it for the duration of the forcecage though. I still don't think they have any spells that will be able to harm it. Oh! I found one! The cleric keeps a cometfall memorized. He also keeps a miracle memorized, so he could conceivably use it to replicate some other spell that doesn't have SR, like the cloudkill. They most likely won't think of cloudkill. They haven't seen it once in my 4.5-year campaign, and nobody has ever talked about it. I think I might have some higher-level thunder spells in my campaign that don't allow SR, so they might be able to use one or more of them as well. So they'd at least have the ability to damage it. I think though that they'll need to buff up the primary melee specialist and just have him and the archer go at the think with physical damage while the cleric mass heals the melee specialist and the cleric maybe gets in a few shots with the no-SR thunder spells. Nope. I take it back. Only thunderstorm doesn't allow SR. The others all do, and thunderbolt/thundercloud require ranged touch attacks too. Most of the minotaur's 55 AC comes from bonuses that apply to touch AC, so even hitting it with those two spells would prove very difficult. These are all thunder domain spells, so the cleric has only one thunderstorm per day. Actually if they could keep it in a forcecage for a while and use the miracle to do a cloudkill, that could be pretty effective--except that the cage for the prisoner they want to escape is built into the wall behind where the minotaur is likely to be, and a cloudkill would almost certainly kill her.
runestar 03-26-07, 09:58 AM	Paragon gives you a SR = CR bevore the Templates added +25 = SR29 You should read more erata's And thus a single line accomplishes what a multitude of other posts could not...:embarrass I looked it up, and this appears to be the relevant line... Page 210, Creating a Paragon Creature, Special Qualities: Change third entry to “Spell resistance equal to the base creature’s CR + 25.” Seem's like its intent was merely to give it sr= new cr+10, not essentially unbeatable sr.
CelestialBarbarian 03-26-07, 10:07 AM	So your pc's never use Know Opponent or other divinations on enemies? They don't prepare two of the best spells in the PHB (By ALL accounts)? Meh, serves them right if you turn them into swiss cheese. I'm not familiar with know opponent (I see it here in the Spell Compendium, but nobody has ever used it in any game in which I've played) but I can say that the party is very poor about using divinations. In this particular case, because of the magical nature of the labyrinth, they won't be able to use divination magic directly on the creature. They could commune, as they've done a couple of times, but I'd be surprised if they do that, and even if they do, they're not going to be able to get answers to questions like "what is the BBEG?" or"what are the weaknesses of the BBEG?" :D
CelestialBarbarian 03-26-07, 10:27 AM	And thus a single line accomplishes what a multitude of other posts could not...:embarrass I looked it up, and this appears to be the relevant line... What I find most annoying--aside from being criticized by some kid who can't even spell errata, and doesn't know that you don't use an apostrophe to pluralize, or indeed that "errata" is already a plural (singular: erratum)--is that I have the set of errata that you quoted. Apparently I went through it and made the changes through page 203, and the got called away, put away the errata, and never finished noting it in my copy of ELH. With an SR of only 29, it won't have much protection against their spells, and indeed a holy word that penetrated its SR would kill it outright. Both the half-celestial and the cleric have a holy word. The half-celestial has a caster level of 16 and would need a 13 or better to overcome the SR. That gives him a 40% chance. The cleric has a CL of 19 and Spell Penetration, so would need to roll only an 8, and so has a 65% chance of success. Of course I'd bet that they'd assume the thing was too high a level for a holy word to affect it. They won't know that it has 18 levels worth of templates intead of hit dice. :D Enervation would work better, and the wizard does have a staff of necromacy, so he could do it all day (or at least for several minutes). Whether he would think of using it or not I don't know. He hasn't used it since the giant werecroc got him in its mouth and dragged him under and he could make concentration checks to cast spells. Oh wait, I think he used it against one of the brachyuruses (brachyuri?) the party fought. It's not really his style of combat. Of course again they won't know that the monster has only 6 hit dice and when it has better SR than the drow or half-celestial in the party and does more damage than the tricked out half-celestial barbarian/cleric/fighter/ranger/lightning warrior they're not going to think it has only 6 hit dice. :D I'm more inclined to think about going a different route, now, but based on my analysis the template route still offers some significant advantages. Remember that on hit points, AC, attack bonus, saving throws, and damage it outshines the minotaur barbarian 18. You know before I read all these latest posts, I was thinking of tossing in either the fiendish or half-fiend template. It would be nice to give the thing some wings so it could fly after flying characters. That would really put the fear of evil into the wizard and sorcerer. :D
runestar 03-26-07, 10:40 AM	Fiendish does not grant wings. Are you thinking of the half-dragon template or something?:P
Selgard 03-26-07, 10:57 AM	Don't let Errata or a Template get in the way of your making an effective BBEG. If you think the Errata gives SR too low, and the template pre-errata has SR too high, then adjust it accordingly. You are the DM. All the players know, is how interesting or not the encounter was.. They don't care (and will in all probability never know) what all templates went into the making of the critter. All the template is, is a CR guide anyway. Bump up/down the SR and adjust the CR accordingly, then let the PC's deal with that devil of a minotaur. :)
CelestialBarbarian 03-26-07, 11:53 AM	Fiendish does not grant wings. Are you thinking of the half-dragon template or something?:P The half-fiend template does.
CelestialBarbarian 03-26-07, 12:04 PM	Don't let Errata or a Template get in the way of your making an effective BBEG. If you think the Errata gives SR too low, and the template pre-errata has SR too high, then adjust it accordingly. You are the DM. All the players know, is how interesting or not the encounter was.. They don't care (and will in all probability never know) what all templates went into the making of the critter. All the template is, is a CR guide anyway. Bump up/down the SR and adjust the CR accordingly, then let the PC's deal with that devil of a minotaur. :) Yeah, I was thinking of doing that. Also it occurs to me that when applying a template, the base creature is whatever you have before you apply the template, not the base creature for the very first template you applied. So a feral minotaur of legend actually is the base creature for the paragon template. A feral minotaur of legend has a CR of 7, so the paragon version of it would have an SR of 7 + 25 = 32. That's a bit better. That lowers the wizard's chance of overcoming the SR from 85% to 70%. It lowers the sorceress' chances from 70% to 55%. It lowers the cleric's from 65% to 50%. It lowers the half-celestial's from 40% to 25%. That might make it a bit more survivable. :)
rob_douglas 03-26-07, 05:22 PM	Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't stack with itself, so you can't keep hitting it with that over and over (though if you eventually get a critical....). This is in the FAQ. I like the idea of adding Half-fiend. It still comes down to the fact that he won't have a lot of HD, but that can be interesting in its own right. What I don't see is this being the BBEG - that guy is usually the brains behind the brawn. This looks like a powerful "pet" or something. Heck, making it a pet means you could give it some more defenses in the form of items crafted by the real power behind things, etc. Spells are a bit more problematic as you noticed. Give it immunity to Mind-affecting, and polymorph. As for the question about Feats for the Paragon Mind-flayer - in 3.0 the number of feats for an aberration were based on INT, so the +15 bonus added 3 or 4 feats to the Mind flayer. I don't know if they corrected this in the errata/update/SRD. I like the Monster of Legend template. I used it on a T. Rex and he came out to be nice and nasty - enough to challenge some 19th level characters. ROB
Perseus_Stoned 03-26-07, 06:14 PM	Don't let Errata or a Template get in the way of your making an effective BBEG. If you think the Errata gives SR too low, and the template pre-errata has SR too high, then adjust it accordingly. You are the DM. All the players know, is how interesting or not the encounter was.. They don't care (and will in all probability never know) what all templates went into the making of the critter. All the template is, is a CR guide anyway. Bump up/down the SR and adjust the CR accordingly, then let the PC's deal with that devil of a minotaur. :) Everything this guy said is entirely true; if you feel like it redesign the "Guardian" monsters and make an "outsider" Minotaur-esque character. Alternatively, if you're still thinking about adding class levels, maybe consider throwing in some Frenzied Berserker levels to be extra cruel :) [not sure how that would look on a BBEG, but I know certain PCs wear them really well- just depends on how many you can afford to stack on to make it worth it or not] Also it seems like there are several people who've posted in this thread whose purpose is entirely to insult you or your party. I'd like to point out the poster is looking for help in his game, if this means critiquing his build or PCs, so be it, but there's a difference between critiquing and outright insulting. If he points out ways his characters play the game these are not flaws- simply the way his PCs have fun and is absolutely the correct way to play, in that case.
bluemage55 03-26-07, 07:30 PM	I would recommend the lycanthrope template. By making it a lycanthrope, you can add on a large number of animal HD for a minimal CR increase (and every 3 additional animal HD is only +1 CR). I would go with Paragon Werelion Minotaur (11 HD, CR 22). If you were to dispense with the paragon template, you can have a Pseudonatural Were-Legendary Tiger Minotaur of Legend (32 HD, CR 22). ;) This creature can escape from forcecages easily with dimension door, and essentially has unbeatable SR. In addition to its regular attacks, it has 8 extra tentacle attacks for immense damage per round.
User5127 03-26-07, 10:04 PM	I lik ethe idea of a pet for this creature. the master could have gicen it some kind of SR magic item. "Pseudonatural Were-Legendary Tiger Minotaur of Legend" wow thats a long name.
CelestialBarbarian 03-27-07, 05:00 AM	Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't stack with itself, so you can't keep hitting it with that over and over (though if you eventually get a critical....). This is in the FAQ. Thanks for the feedback. I went through the 3/26/07 FAQ but I didn't find anything in the spell second under ray of enfeeblement. I'm even more afraid that I meant enervation rather than ray of enfeeblement. I think the sorceress might have ray of enfeeblement, but I was thinking of the many enervation spells the wizard could cast from his staff of necromacy. Sorry.:( I like the idea of adding Half-fiend. It still comes down to the fact that he won't have a lot of HD, but that can be interesting in its own right. What I don't see is this being the BBEG - that guy is usually the brains behind the brawn. This looks like a powerful "pet" or something. Heck, making it a pet means you could give it some more defenses in the form of items crafted by the real power behind things, etc. Spells are a bit more problematic as you noticed. What do you like about the half-fiend? As far as it being the BBEG, hmm, maybe you wouldn't call it that, or maybe you would. Basically it's what's trapped in the labyrinth, guarding the wizard's mother, whom the oppressive humans sent their as a trap for the wizard's uncle many years before. Since she's not a virgin the minotaur won't eat her (although he might do other bad things) so she has (barely) survived. So the minotaur isn't the "brains" here, if that's what you're thinking. He's the braun for the ultimate fight in this subadventure. Does that work better for you? :) I do plan to give it some magic items, compensurate with its ECL. I haven't, however, decided which items. Yes, with an SR of 32 rather than 47, spells will matter more. Give it immunity to Mind-affecting, and polymorph. Currently I have with immunity to acid and mind-affecting effects. It also gets the fire subtype so it's immune to fire as well. I debated for a while whether to give it the fire or cold subtype. When I thought it was going to have unbeatable SR I thought the party's tendency to use fireballs/meteorswarms (the wizard) or acidballs and acid meteorswarms (the sorceress) wouldn't really matter. If I'd given it the cold subtype it would also be immune to the wizard's silver dragon cohort's breath weapon, which she can maximize to 48 points. I decided to stick with the fire substype in part because it matches the breath weapon, in part because in the world more things use fire than cold, and in part because I didn't want to just deliberately make it immune to everything I know the party can do. (I might be doing that a bit already in making it immune to acid rather than polymorph, which now would matter more with an SR of 32 rather than 47.) As for the question about Feats for the Paragon Mind-flayer - in 3.0 the number of feats for an aberration were based on INT, so the +15 bonus added 3 or 4 feats to the Mind flayer. I don't know if they corrected this in the errata/update/SRD. Ah, mystery solved! I checked the SRD and it reduces the number of epic feats to 1. I noticed, by the way, that I had in fact seen the paragon template's SR change in an earlier set of errata, and in fact had marked the change from +10 to +25. I had missed, however, the change from "paragon creature's" to "base creature's." So I was both more and less thorough than I reported. :D I also noticed that the second errata contained an erratum for the elder titan that makes no sense: it says to remove polymorph self from its list of spell-like abilities and replace it with a change shape supernatural ability. The only problem is that the elder titan didn't have polymorph self in the first place. The SRD doesn't add the change shape ability either. I like the Monster of Legend template. I used it on a T. Rex and he came out to be nice and nasty - enough to challenge some 19th level characters. ROB Me too! I'd like to keep it if I can.
CelestialBarbarian 03-27-07, 06:36 AM	Everything this guy said is entirely true; if you feel like it redesign the "Guardian" monsters and make an "outsider" Minotaur-esque character. Alternatively, if you're still thinking about adding class levels, maybe consider throwing in some Frenzied Berserker levels to be extra cruel :) [not sure how that would look on a BBEG, but I know certain PCs wear them really well- just depends on how many you can afford to stack on to make it worth it or not] Thanks for the feedback! I have considered throwing in some FB levels. That would make it very nasty in melee. The only potential problem is that I've used an FB before in this campaign. It's a while back now, so using it here wouldn't mean that I'm bombarded the party with frenzied berserkers, but I'm not sure if I want to repeat that particular element of challenge. On the flip side, they would recognize it and have some idea how to counteract it. It would mean taking something like 6 levels of barbarian (or 1 of barbarian and five other BAB +1/level classes in any case) as well as the levels of FB. That pretty well precludes using the paragon template unless I want to make it at least CR 26 (and drop the other two templates). Also it seems like there are several people who've posted in this thread whose purpose is entirely to insult you or your party. I'd like to point out the poster is looking for help in his game, if this means critiquing his build or PCs, so be it, but there's a difference between critiquing and outright insulting. If he points out ways his characters play the game these are not flaws- simply the way his PCs have fun and is absolutely the correct way to play, in that case. Yes, I've noticed that too. Thanks for your support! :)
CelestialBarbarian 03-27-07, 06:44 AM	I would recommend the lycanthrope template. By making it a lycanthrope, you can add on a large number of animal HD for a minimal CR increase (and every 3 additional animal HD is only +1 CR). I would go with Paragon Werelion Minotaur (11 HD, CR 22). If you were to dispense with the paragon template, you can have a Pseudonatural Were-Legendary Tiger Minotaur of Legend (32 HD, CR 22). ;) This creature can escape from forcecages easily with dimension door, and essentially has unbeatable SR. In addition to its regular attacks, it has 8 extra tentacle attacks for immense damage per round. Thanks for the feedback. :) I love lycanthropes! I had a whole giant werecroc subplot with which the party spend some time dealing. They had to exercise a great deal of restraint because most of the werecrocs were villagers from the home village of the party's half-elven archer. The party couldn't (or wouldn't) go around just killing all the werecrocs. It was actually during that subplot that the wizard, caught in a werecrocs' mouth and dragged underwater, discovered the joys of using the staff of necromancy to cast multiple enervation spells. :D Actually they haven't technically finished the werecroc subplot. They never did backtrack the werecrocs to the orginal, nature werecrocs that started the outbreak that engulfed the village. They basically stopped after they defeated the infected werecrocs (including the PC's high-level archer mentor), but they know that somewhere out there is a natural lycanthrope. Actually they don't know it but that's part of a bigger subplot to which they've been only slightly exposed. Anyway I'm not sure if I'd want to go the lycanthrope route again right now. Looking at the MM, in addition, I see that it says that only humanoids and giants can have the lycanthrope subtype, so I don't think I could use it on a minotaur, which is a monstrous humanoid.
bluemage55 03-27-07, 11:19 AM	Looking at the MM, in addition, I see that it says that only humanoids and giants can have the lycanthrope subtype, so I don't think I could use it on a minotaur, which is a monstrous humanoid. Oops. :embarrass
CelestialBarbarian 03-27-07, 11:32 AM	Oops. :embarrass NP. :) On another thread someone suggested a longhorn (?) minotaur from MM4, but alas I don't have the book, and don't know if it's worth getting just for the one monster. I've never used even close to all the monsters in MM, and only a couple of MMII, so I never got MM3 or MM4. I do have Draconomicon and the two Fiendish Codexes, since I'm partial to using dragon, demons and devils (D&D&D, you might say :D), but even there I've used only a few items. Indeed I haven't used anything from the FCs, yet, and with the PCs at 20th and 21st in my campaign, probably won't use much. Now that they've made the archdevils higher CR than the demon lords and only aspects, I might be more inclined to use one or two of them (treating a demon lord as just the aspect too). Out of Draconomicon I've used only two dragons (and the party didn't bother to have the encounter that would have led them to the two non-MM dragons), although one of the PCs has made use of a couple of the feats. Come to think of it, one of my players gave me Draconomicon as a birthday gift when it first came out, although I probably would have bought it anyway. So what do we think of MM4 anyway? And more specifically, of the longhorn minotaur? Thanks! :)
rob_douglas 03-27-07, 04:20 PM	What do you like about the half-fiend? I actually prefer it for things with more hit dice, so I don't think it will work well in this case. But with lots of hit dice, the SLAs have a much higher caster level than normal, which can really help. It also maximizes SR and Smite. The wings are a nice touch if you need to be able to fly. And always having Unholy aura means you can save some money on deflection and resistance devices, and give out less treasure to boot. Horrid Wilting is nice when you can get through SR, and know that the Rogue can't evade it. ROB
CelestialBarbarian 03-27-07, 06:58 PM	I actually prefer it for things with more hit dice, so I don't think it will work well in this case. But with lots of hit dice, the SLAs have a much higher caster level than normal, which can really help. It also maximizes SR and Smite. The wings are a nice touch if you need to be able to fly. And always having Unholy aura means you can save some money on deflection and resistance devices, and give out less treasure to boot. Horrid Wilting is nice when you can get through SR, and know that the Rogue can't evade it. ROB These are all good points. I'd thought about using the half-fiend to give it wings, although in all likelihood the minotaur will be able to reach targets flying at ceiling level so it probably won't need wings. I could also, for +3 LA less, just give it the winged template anyway. :)
CelestialBarbarian 03-27-07, 11:00 PM	I was looking over the sorceress' sheet, and I see that at least she does have forcecage, which means she can cast them all day, more or less. So they could just put him in a forecage. If they lure him out from in front of the cage with the prisoner, they could even just rescue the wizard's mother and flee without having to kill the minotaur. Of course that applies whether the minotaur has the feral, monster of legend and paragon templates, or the 18 levels of barbarian/frenzied berserker. There will be other monsters, most likely, in the final room. There will probably be an greater obsidian golem in the form of the minotaur (like a greater stone golem but with a +3 greataxe and iterative attacks, CR +1), and maybe some zombie minotaurs as well. So even if they trap the epic minotaur, they won't necessarily be able to just walk out with the mother. Edit: In the old days of original D&D, a monster like this would have just walked through the forcecage with its magic resistance. Alas in 3.5, forcecage doesn't allow SR.
runestar 03-27-07, 11:25 PM	Not unless you apply the half-troll template first...:D
CelestialBarbarian 03-27-07, 11:48 PM	Not unless you apply the half-troll template first...:D What's not unless you apply the half-troll template first? What source contains the half-troll template anyway?
runestar 03-28-07, 12:35 AM	I learnt this this trick from wotc. The half-troll template from fiend folio changes the type of the base monster to giant. Lycantrope template can be added to giants. This combo basically allows the lycantrope template to be applied to any monster. Even solars and dragons are fair game....:P
CelestialBarbarian 03-28-07, 12:59 AM	I learnt this this trick from wotc. The half-troll template from fiend folio changes the type of the base monster to giant. Lycantrope template can be added to giants. This combo basically allows the lycantrope template to be applied to any monster. Even solars and dragons are fair game....:P Neat. Does the +4 LA seem a bit high? That the same LA as the half-celestial and half-fiend, but the half-troll seems to get far less than either of those two.
runestar 03-28-07, 01:47 AM	Well, now that you mention it, decent physical stat bonuses, +4NA, fast healing, does seem a tad weak for LA+4(LA+3 seems more apt). :(
CelestialBarbarian 03-28-07, 02:20 AM	Well, now that you mention it, decent physical stat bonuses, +4NA, fast healing, does seem a tad weak for LA+4(LA+3 seems more apt). :( I agree, especially since the half-troll suffers penalties on mental ability scores whereas both half-celestial and half-fiend get mental ability score bonuses in addition to physical ability score bonuses. The two outsider templates here also get better with hit dice, as they get more and better spell-like abilities, and the half-troll gets nothing remotely like that.
rob_douglas 03-28-07, 09:59 AM	I learnt this this trick from wotc. The half-troll template from fiend folio changes the type of the base monster to giant. Lycantrope template can be added to giants. This combo basically allows the lycantrope template to be applied to any monster. Even solars and dragons are fair game....:P I don't see how this works on Solars, unless they repealed the Template stacking rules from Savage Species. It works for this case, with the Minotaur - since Giant is above Monstrous Humanoid in the Type Pyramid (SS pg 142). Outsider is at the top of the pyramid. And Dragon is above Giant too. ROB
runestar 03-28-07, 10:32 AM	The half-troll template states that your type changes to giant. This is also evident in its sample entry, which is a half-troll bearded devil, which clearly has its type listed as giant(extraplanar). Thus, a half-troll solar would be of the giant type. The template does not so much stack, rather, it replaces the base creature's original type with giant, whatever it originally was.:) There are some drawbacks though(skill points are 2+int mod). Combined with its racial -2int, this means the solar is losing 7*23, or 161 skill points in total.:(
CelestialBarbarian 03-28-07, 03:04 PM	The half-troll template states that your type changes to giant. This is also evident in its sample entry, which is a half-troll bearded devil, which clearly has its type listed as giant(extraplanar). Thus, a half-troll solar would be of the giant type. The template does not so much stack, rather, it replaces the base creature's original type with giant, whatever it originally was.:) There are some drawbacks though(skill points are 2+int mod). Combined with its racial -2int, this means the solar is losing 7*23, or 161 skill points in total.:( Yes, I noticed that the half-troll template specifically allows what the general template rules of Savage Species forbid. Whether the specific rule represents an exception or a repeal I could only guess. Without a specific repeal, however, I'll treat it as merely an exception to the general rules. I wouldn't, however, sully a solar by applying the half-troll template to it! A demon or devil, however, represents an entirely different case. :D
User5127 03-28-07, 06:36 PM	well if you made the half-troll minotuar a natural lycantrope then he'd get more skill points. he a shape changer then. To explain it this way. Toll mates with minotaur, and mage combines a lycantrope curse to the child. thus you get a half-troll minotaur natural lycathrope. Other aquired templated can also be added by explaining them off as things the creature picked up in a childhood/young stage. that explanation works for jsut about anything that isn't dependant in some way on class levels/HD. So CB, you could certainly create a "Natural Lycantrope Winged Paragon Half-Troll Minotaur" You'd be garanteed a perfect fly speed at base speed +20 * 3. :D If you want you can then after tack on insectile and turn the whole creature into an abberation with the shapechanger subtype. That'd be a freaky looking minotaur as well! 6 arms, 10 feet tall, huge insect wings, pefect flight, a climb speed, and a large supply of other crazy. Go with Greathorn Minotaur btw. its 11HD and CR 7.
Diplominator 03-28-07, 07:46 PM	[QUOTE=User5127;11917187]well if you made the half-troll minotuar a natural lycantrope then he'd get more skill points. he a shape changer then. [QUOTE] Shapechanger is a subtype in 3.5. No more skill points, I don't think.
User5127 03-28-07, 08:35 PM	my bad, thats what I get when trying to juggle to many new things with old things. and yes. they don't get additional skills. so my bad. still 19HD at 2+int mod... its also CR 27 though.. heh.
runestar 03-28-07, 11:04 PM	Troll lycantrope mates with minotaur - half-troll minotaur lycantrope...:P
User5127 03-28-07, 11:20 PM	who through magical experiments by his master gains the Winged, Insectile and Paragon templates as well! muahaha I'm working on it right now. I've settled on Polar Bear as the base animal. This thing will certainly look F'd up!
CelestialBarbarian 03-29-07, 01:00 AM	well if you made the half-troll minotuar a natural lycantrope then he'd get more skill points. he a shape changer then. To explain it this way. Toll mates with minotaur, and mage combines a lycantrope curse to the child. thus you get a half-troll minotaur natural lycathrope. Other aquired templated can also be added by explaining them off as things the creature picked up in a childhood/young stage. that explanation works for jsut about anything that isn't dependant in some way on class levels/HD. So CB, you could certainly create a "Natural Lycantrope Winged Paragon Half-Troll Minotaur" You'd be garanteed a perfect fly speed at base speed +20 * 3. :D :rofl: This minotaur was one a demigod ruler of an island who became a tyrant and conquered most of the rest of the islands. He ignored warnings from the gods to stop, killing any seers who correctly interpreted the warnings. The gods finally cursed him by turning him into the minotaur, trapping him in the labyrinth. Once a month the people of his own island must sacrifice a virgin for him to eat, since they were complicit in his conquests. If they don't sacrifice a virgin, the minotaur can come out of the labyrinth until the next new moon and then wreaks havoc on the population, but only at night, and the curse teleports him back to the labyrinth at dawn each day. So I could probably give him any templates or whatever that I wanted, since it's a divine curse. I like things to have a certain, hmm, literary or aesthetic feel, however, so there are some templates that I wouldn't be included to use because they don't feel right, like psuedonatural or insectile. I want the final minotaur to have a very, well, minotaurish feel to it. :D If you want you can then after tack on insectile and turn the whole creature into an abberation with the shapechanger subtype. That'd be a freaky looking minotaur as well! 6 arms, 10 feet tall, huge insect wings, pefect flight, a climb speed, and a large supply of other crazy. Go with Greathorn Minotaur btw. its 11HD and CR 7. Actually if it's CR 7, which is only 3 more than the standard minotaur, it might work quite well. With the templates I'm considering--feral, monster of legend and paragon--it would then have a CR of 25, which is kind of what I've been leaning toward. Alas I don't have the statistics for the greathorn minotaur. Is MM4 worth the price just for the greathorn minotaur? I see it for $23.07 on Amazon (although that's just short of the $25 required for free shipping so I'd either have to buy a second book I've been considering or pay for shipping :() I wonder if making it a greathorn minotaur (which fits well within the feel of keeping the monster "minotaurish"), which raises the CR by 3 but adds 6 hit dice, would make it tougher than adding three levels of barbarian (also fairly "minotaurish") to a regular minotaur. What do you think? Thanks!
Krispieman 03-29-07, 03:20 AM	Alas I don't have the statistics for the greathorn minotaur. Is MM4 worth the price just for the greathorn minotaur? I see it for $23.07 on Amazon (although that's just short of the $25 required for free shipping so I'd either have to buy a second book I've been considering or pay for shipping :() No it's not worth it. It's not even worth $23.07 for all the monsters. Check out the link in my sig and read not only what I've said, but others as well. K-man :cool:
CelestialBarbarian 03-29-07, 03:59 AM	No it's not worth it. It's not even worth $23.07 for all the monsters. Check out the link in my sig and read not only what I've said, but others as well. K-man :cool: Thanks for the feedback. The only thing I'd say, not having looked at the book, is that as a general rule I like having some advanced versions of monsters in the book, whether advanced by hit dice or character class. I really like having, for example, the greater stone golem in the MM. Oh, I also hated the new statistics block when I first started seeing it in Dragon and Fiendish Codex I. I've gotten a bit more used to it, so I too don't find it as troubling any longer.
runestar 03-29-07, 04:41 AM	Yes, but repackaged lizardfolk, drow, gnolls, yuanti and orcs?:rolleyes: This is the sort of stuff you might find in an "elite opponents" article, not a published splatbook.
CelestialBarbarian 03-29-07, 07:48 AM	Yes, but repackaged lizardfolk, drow, gnolls, yuanti and orcs?:rolleyes: This is the sort of stuff you might find in an "elite opponents" article, not a published splatbook. Well I don't have the MM4, so I didn't know the specific races that they advanced. I guess I do recall reading somewhere about ninja drow though. The ninja drow doesn't sound too much worse than, say, the MM's frost giant jarl, which I kind of like. :) I'm not really sure, by the way, of the definition of a "splat book." I recall people using the term for the softcover classes books--Sword and Fist, Tome and Blood, Ham and Cheese, etc.--from 3.0, but I haven't heard the term applied to hardcover expansions (or sequels if you will) like MM#.
User5127 03-29-07, 09:20 AM	greathorn is a more advanced minotaur. and adding insectile I think would make it feel more subterranean and cursed. Like he's spent so much time underground, trapped, that he has adapted and picked up insect like traits. you wouldn't have to make the insect traits look so readily apparant (like what they did to the ogre). I'd make his eyes a little more bug like, add four more arm, some chitin plates (kinda like half-plate armor). the extra arms would be smaller and not usable for attacks. and make him white (rare greathorns are albino). plus wide vision means your players can't flank him. hehe Also if you go with werebear, when he voluntarily chages his alignment goes to LG. though you can rule otehrwise, or perhaps some curse keeps him evil even though he changes into a bear. (although you can use a croc for swim speed, go with giant croc for more HD) the added animal HD puts your paragon CR increase down to a measily +12. as well you have about 11 feats iirc. (did some work statting him out, I call him Brutus) your skills are at +38-+50 (I gave him polar bear and minotaur stats plus survival, swim, climb) and the winged template gives him an auto perfect flight because his dex score is ape sh*t high. so you would have 150ft perfect fly... hehe He's pretty scary imo. He has that feel of fighting hill giants for the first time, or ogres.. and getting spashed for huge amounts of damage. (although I'm sure some one can optimise it better than me and get it to deal crazy calculous damage. but thats not needed..)
CelestialBarbarian 03-29-07, 10:00 AM	greathorn is a more advanced minotaur. and adding insectile I think would make it feel more subterranean and cursed. Like he's spent so much time underground, trapped, that he has adapted and picked up insect like traits. you wouldn't have to make the insect traits look so readily apparant (like what they did to the ogre). I'd make his eyes a little more bug like, add four more arm, some chitin plates (kinda like half-plate armor). the extra arms would be smaller and not usable for attacks. and make him white (rare greathorns are albino). plus wide vision means your players can't flank him. hehe Also if you go with werebear, when he voluntarily chages his alignment goes to LG. though you can rule otehrwise, or perhaps some curse keeps him evil even though he changes into a bear. (although you can use a croc for swim speed, go with giant croc for more HD) the added animal HD puts your paragon CR increase down to a measily +12. as well you have about 11 feats iirc. (did some work statting him out, I call him Brutus) your skills are at +38-+50 (I gave him polar bear and minotaur stats plus survival, swim, climb) and the winged template gives him an auto perfect flight because his dex score is ape sh*t high. so you would have 150ft perfect fly... hehe He's pretty scary imo. He has that feel of fighting hill giants for the first time, or ogres.. and getting spashed for huge amounts of damage. (although I'm sure some one can optimise it better than me and get it to deal crazy calculous damage. but thats not needed..) Rather than going with the greathorn, I think I might just advance the regular minotaur enough to raise its CR by 3, which might be the same 5 HD as with the greathorn. I'd like to keep powerful charge and not give it the earth-oriented abilities. Thanks! :) Edit: If I raise its CR from 22 to 25 by giving it 5 more hit dice it gets 5d10 (turned from d8 to d10 by the feral template) maximized to 50 by the paragon template, +12/die from the paragon template for +60, and +16/die from Constitution for +80 = 190 additional hit points. Added to the total of 228 (I was off a bit when I wrote 222 above) that gives it a total of 418 hit points. (Alternatively, its 11d10 =110, plus 12*11 = 132, plus 16*11 = 176, for a total of 418.) A total of 418 hit points seems fairly respectable.
rob_douglas 03-29-07, 11:25 AM	I think Advancing the Minotaur is good, even if it isn't by the book. But if you also advance it a size-category, you get some nice benefits. Then just apply the templates as you said. Paragon seems to fit the feel you are going for - as a fallen divine being it would have some divine spark. You could also just give it DvR0 and a lot of Barbarian levels - avoids the Hit Dice problem, and gives some amazing immunities to boot. Add in inherent bonuses to the stats as well to give him a non-magic item/treasure boost. ROB
CelestialBarbarian 03-29-07, 11:46 AM	I think Advancing the Minotaur is good, even if it isn't by the book. But if you also advance it a size-category, you get some nice benefits. Then just apply the templates as you said. Paragon seems to fit the feel you are going for - as a fallen divine being it would have some divine spark. You could also just give it DvR0 and a lot of Barbarian levels - avoids the Hit Dice problem, and gives some amazing immunities to boot. Add in inherent bonuses to the stats as well to give him a non-magic item/treasure boost. ROB I've statted it all out with the 11 hit dice and three templates, and it's pretty cool. Does anyone have any recommendations for the two new feats it gets? I was thinking of Improved Natural Weapon (horn) as one of them. Does anyone have any suggestions for magic items? The divine rank of 0 is an excellent suggestion! I'll have to take a look again at the benefits of a divine rank of 0 and compare. Edit: Ah, but what sort of CR increase does a divine rank of 0 merit?
bluemage55 03-29-07, 01:48 PM	The divine rank of 0 is an excellent suggestion! I'll have to take a look again at the benefits of a divine rank of 0 and compare. Edit: Ah, but what sort of CR increase does a divine rank of 0 merit? With the divine array, around +6. Without, around +3.
rob_douglas 03-29-07, 01:51 PM	Tough call. I think +6, if you don't use the Divine Array stats, +10 if you do. I am not sure though, and there were some discussions of it. Dicefreaks has analyzed it to death, and I am sure one of them will pop on here with their answer any moment. They would know better than I. I did have my party fight a Half-Ogre cleric of Orcus who was DvR0. It didn't give too many benefits that it was overpowering - no stats, no special attacks, just defenses. And he needed them. Edit: see, I knew someone would post quickly. My numbers are a bit too high, but +3 seems low for Deflection bonus, immunities, and SR. I think you might have to just make him, then see how the party does and adjust the CR accordingly. ROB
CelestialBarbarian 03-30-07, 01:05 AM	Tough call. I think +6, if you don't use the Divine Array stats, +10 if you do. I am not sure though, and there were some discussions of it. Dicefreaks has analyzed it to death, and I am sure one of them will pop on here with their answer any moment. They would know better than I. I did have my party fight a Half-Ogre cleric of Orcus who was DvR0. It didn't give too many benefits that it was overpowering - no stats, no special attacks, just defenses. And he needed them. Edit: see, I knew someone would post quickly. My numbers are a bit too high, but +3 seems low for Deflection bonus, immunities, and SR. I think you might have to just make him, then see how the party does and adjust the CR accordingly. ROB It appears there's some debate over the CR value of a divine rank of 0. I'm going to sit down and list the benefits so I can compare them to the minotaur with the three templates. Where can I find the divine array? I've looked through Deities and Demigods (3.0, not 1st Ed :D) and haven't found them. Thanks!:) Also, did the 3.5 update have a file for Deities and Demigods? I seem to recall it did. I'm guessing that it updated both DR and SR. I'll check myself when I get a chance, (I'm granding student papers) but maybe someone has it at their fingertips. Thanks! :) Edit: Ok, I found the update. DR gets changed to 10/epic for the quasi-deity, which is what the minotaur has already. SR remains unchanged at 32 + rank. The minotaur already has better at SR 35.
rob_douglas 03-30-07, 11:14 AM	Divine Array is in the Deities and Demigods FAQ: Here (http://wizards.com/dnd/files/DeitiesDemigodsFAQ10252002.zip) It is on page 2, right hand column. ROB
CelestialBarbarian 03-30-07, 11:35 AM	Divine Array is in the Deities and Demigods FAQ: Here (http://wizards.com/dnd/files/DeitiesDemigodsFAQ10252002.zip) It is on page 2, right hand column. ROB Thanks! I have that old FAQ but didn't think of looking in it. The minotaur with the three templates has one score lower than the divine array (Intelligence of 20) but all the others are higher, ranging from a low of 27 (Charisma) to a high of 48 (Strength). So it looks like for SR and ability scores, the paragon (plus two templates) provides a stronger outcome. Edit: I did this rather quickly, but assuming a +6 CR for the divine rank of 0 with the divine array, a normal minotaur (6d8 hit dice and CR 4), a 28 in Constitution, and 15 levels of barbarian/frenzied berserker, I calculate 402 hit points. With the three templates the minotaur has 418, so they're a little better on it points too than the maximum hit point class level choice using a divine rank of 0 with the divine array and assuming that it raises CR by 6. Ironically if we use a CR of +3 for the divine rank of 0 without the divine array, we could stick with the three templates, replace the extra 3 CR from the extra 5 monstrous humanoid hit dice with a divine rank of 0, and add a host of immunities. Of course we'd lost the 190 extra hit points from the 5 extra hit dice.
CelestialBarbarian 03-30-07, 12:23 PM	What about making it an abomination? An abomination would fit with it being the unwanted, imprisoned child of a god and a mortal. How many hit dice could it have as an abomination with a CR of 25? I see that the infernal has a CR of 26, and 40 hit dice. A phane has a CR of 25 and 36 hit dice (the minimum for a large abomination). Both have ability scores generally inferior to the three-template minotaur (although maybe better than the divine array). Both abominations have slightly worse base ACs, although the infernal has a substantially worse touch AC. The infernal's attack bonuses are roughly comparable, but its damage is substantially inferior. The infernal claws for 4d6+16 and bites for 4d8+8, while the three-template minotaur does 3d6+48 with its greataxe and 3d6+39 with its gore (8d6+61 with its powerful charge). The abominations though have it all over the minotaur on hit points: the phane has 612 and the infernal 680 versus 418 for the minotaur. The two abominations have saving throw bonuses roughly the same as those of the three-template minotaur. Since SR is based on CR +12, an abomination of CR 25 would have an SR of 37, or two better than the three-template minotaur. Right now the party's wizard would have a 55% of penetrating the SR; with the minotaur having abomination traits the wizard's chance would drop to 45%. The caster level of the abominations' spell-like abilities is substantially higher than that of the three-template minotaurs, and they generally have more and higher-level ones than it has. Edit: I forgot to mention that both abominations have fast healing 15 and regeneration 15, for a combined healing of 30 per round versus 20 for the three-template mintor. Wizards forgot to update the infernal's DR in the SRD, but according to the update package it has 15/good and epic, and the phane as 15/epic. Both are better than the template minotaur's 10/epic. If I were doing the minotaur as an abomination, I'd probably give it 15/good and epic. (How about DR 15/Good and Plenty? How many people have candy weapons? :D) So if I went the abomination route, the minotaur's healing and DR would both improve somewhat. So far we have: 1. Three-template minotaur: much better ability scores and damage; more energy immunities; [edit 2] much better touch AC [end edit 2]. 2. Abomination minotaur: slightly better SR, DR and healing, better spell-like abilities, much better hit points; more non-energy immunities, no energy vulnerability, better energy resistance cold. Am I missing anything? P.S. Has the overlooked DR change for the infernal reached the 3.5 revision thread yet? Edit 2: Is there an abomination array anywhere? I looked in the old FAQ for ELH but I didn't see any listed there. It's just as old, however, as the Deities and Demigods FAQ I have.
rob_douglas 03-31-07, 11:51 PM	Did you remember the Divine Deflection bonus to armor equal to CHA bonus? A DvR0 being gets that. I am not aware of an Abomination array, but there are some guidelines in the ELH that might help. ROB
CelestialBarbarian 04-01-07, 01:31 AM	Did you remember the Divine Deflection bonus to armor equal to CHA bonus? A DvR0 being gets that. I am not aware of an Abomination array, but there are some guidelines in the ELH that might help. ROB With the divine array, it would most likekly get a deflection bonus of +7, but it would lose the +12 insight bonus and +12 luck bonus to AC from the paragon template, for a net loss to AC of 17. It would also, with the divine array, lose 3 points from its Dexterity bonus, bringing the next loss of AC to 20. If I added a divine rank of 0 without the divine array and kept the three templates, it would get a deflection bonus of +8, raising the AC to 62, but at the cost of 190 of 418 hit points, lowering the total hit points back to 228. ELH does have guidelines for the physical ability scores of abominations, but not the mental ones. Under the guidelines the minotaur's Strength would drop from 48 to 42-43, its Dexterity from 30 to 16-17, and its Constitution from 42 to 28-29. Assuming 36 hit dice it would get 9 ability score increases. Assuming the odd number in each pair of scores, it could get its Strength back to 48 by using 5 of the 9 points. It could use the remaining 4 points to raise the Constitution from 29 to 33, for a net loss of 9 to Constitution and 13 to Dexterity. Its Constitution bonus would drop by 5 and its Dexterity bonus by 7. This is why I mentioned that the abomination would have much better ability scores. Comparing the AC of the two sample abominations with close CRs led me to conclude that as an abomination the minotaur would have roughly the same AC, but I forgot to include above that the three-template minotaur would have a much better touch AC since most of an abomination's AC comes from a high natural armor bonus. I'm going to edit the post above to include the much higher touch AC on the three-template line.
CelestialBarbarian 04-03-07, 04:47 AM	Does anyone have any suggestions for magic items for this creature? The ELH gives an average treasure amount of 128,000 gp for CR 25. Thanks! :)
runestar 04-03-07, 06:56 AM	That is really quite little indeed...:( Monk's belt?
CelestialBarbarian 04-03-07, 08:06 AM	That is really quite little indeed...:( Monk's belt? A monk's belt would give the minotaur an AC of 64, and a touch AC of 53. I'm already concerned that the party will have trouble hitting the AC of 54. The party's main melee specialist has a +37 bonus on his first iterative attack while raging. With bless and prayer they can get it up to +39. A haste would raise it to +60. He already has a belt of giant strength so bull's strength won't help. I guess he could hover and gain a +1 for "higher ground," bringing the total to +61. He's an outsider, so enlarge person won't work. Am I missing any obvious melee attack buff spells? Maybe if they struggle to hit it and fail repeatedly they'll give up trying to beat it to death and put it in a forcecage while they try to resuce the wizard's mother. :)
runestar 04-03-07, 10:33 AM	So your paragon legend minotaur gets... Str: 44, Dex: 31, Con: 40, Int: 24, Wis: 27, Cha: 27, AC: 53(10base+12insight+12luck+10NA+10dex-1size)?, Saves: 30/28/26?. You have Improved initiative, multiattack + 4 floating feats. What special legend abilities did you choose? The offensive ones seem like crap.:( Hmm...lets see what we can get for 128000gp Monk's belt - 13000gp Bracers of armour+7 - 49000gp Oil of greater magic weapon+5(no way we can afford a +5 weapon for him) - 3000gp Oil of greater magic fang+5(for his gore attack) - 3000gp Ring of prot +2 - 8000gp Amulet of NA +2 - 8000gp Cloak of resistance+4 - 16000gp Gloves of dex+4 - 16000gp Something for 12000gp? That should boost his AC to 74...Oops...:embarrass Seems a tad excessive, since anything higher than (highest to-hit+20) seems superfluous.
CelestialBarbarian 04-03-07, 02:03 PM	So your paragon legend minotaur gets... Str: 44, Dex: 31, Con: 40, Int: 24, Wis: 27, Cha: 27, AC: 53(10base+12insight+12luck+10NA+10dex-1size)?, Saves: 30/28/26?. You have Improved initiative, multiattack + 4 floating feats. What special legend abilities did you choose? The offensive ones seem like crap.:( Hmm...lets see what we can get for 128000gp Monk's belt - 13000gp Bracers of armour+7 - 49000gp Oil of greater magic weapon+5(no way we can afford a +5 weapon for him) - 3000gp Oil of greater magic fang+5(for his gore attack) - 3000gp Ring of prot +2 - 8000gp Amulet of NA +2 - 8000gp Cloak of resistance+4 - 16000gp Gloves of dex+4 - 16000gp Something for 12000gp? That should boost his AC to 74...Oops...:embarrass Seems a tad excessive, since anything higher than (highest to-hit+20) seems superfluous. The creature also has 5 extra hit dice and the feral template. It gets Str 48, Dex 30, Con 42, Int 20, Wis 29, Char 27, Saves 34 30 29. AC 54 (11 natural armor). Feats: Great Fortitude, Power Attack, Track, Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Cleave, Superior Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (horns), Improved Critical (greataxe). On the special attacks and special qualities, I see that I read the entry wrong. Instead of giving it one special attack and two special qualities, I gave it all the special attacks and qualities! Rats! That means I'm going to have to go back and redo it. :( For magic items I was thinking about giving it a +5 greataxe and a +3 amulet of might fists. If I did that it would have another 24,000 worth of treasure. Of course not all the treasure needs to be magic items that the minotaur can use against the party. :D
runestar 04-03-07, 10:28 PM	Among the special attacks, only the burning blood seems to be of use, since it should benefit from the paragon template's damage boost. The rest seem crap. My biggest reservation is still against holy word and lv drain effects. Do you have any way of protecting against those, or are you just hoping the PCs will not catch on?:P
CelestialBarbarian 04-04-07, 12:53 AM	Among the special attacks, only the burning blood seems to be of use, since it should benefit from the paragon template's damage boost. The rest seem crap. My biggest reservation is still against holy word and lv drain effects. Do you have any way of protecting against those, or are you just hoping the PCs will not catch on?:P Both holy word and enervation allow SR. The cleric has a caster level of 19 plus Spell Penetration, so he's +21 on his caster level check. He'll need to roll a 14 or better to overcome the minotaur's SR of 35 with a holy word, giving him a 35% chance of success, assuming that he even tries it. The half-celestial has a caster level of 16, so he would need a 19 to overcome the SR, giving him a 10% chance. I don't really think anyone in the party will think the minotaur would have fewer hit dice than the party members. The wizard has enervation on a staff of necromacy. With the staff I think he'd get his caster level but not his Greater Spell Penetration (the DMG stays feats affecting saves, but nothing about feats for SR) so he'd need to roll a 13 or better, giving him a 40% chance of success, again, if he thinks to try it. More likely the party will past away with high-level damage-causing spells like meteor swarm and polar ray, at least for a while. I could conceivably redo his as an abomination. In many ways he'd actually be weaker, but he'd have more hit points and wouldn't have to worry about holy word or enervation in the same way. He'd actually have a higher SR too.
rob_douglas 04-04-07, 01:34 AM	The DMG page 243, 2nd column says "...spells from a staff...have a better chance of overcoming a target's spell resistance (especially if the wielder has the Spell Penetration feat)." Greater SP would work with the staff. But he might not think of it, and still could miss a few times. You could give him a custom amulet that absorbs the first 2-8 negative levels per day. I had something like that in my game at lower levels - a 3E version of the Amulet of the Cairn Hills from Greyhawk Adventures. It would not be too powerful, and therefore might be a fair item to stick on him, and not worry too much about the consequences of granting it to the party afterwards. ROB
CelestialBarbarian 04-04-07, 01:39 AM	The DMG page 243, 2nd column says "...spells from a staff...have a better chance of overcoming a target's spell resistance (especially if the wielder has the Spell Penetration feat)." Ah ok. In my impatience I didn't read the next paragraph. Thanks for the reference. Greater SP would work with the staff. But he might not think of it, and still could miss a few times. You could give him a custom amulet that absorbs the first 2-8 negative levels per day. I had something like that in my game at lower levels - a 3E version of the Amulet of the Cairn Hills from Greyhawk Adventures. It would not be too powerful, and therefore might be a fair item to stick on him, and not worry too much about the consequences of granting it to the party afterwards. ROB That's an idea. It would be easier than reworking the minotaur from scratch as an abomination, although that could be fun too. As it is I have to go back and redo the special abilities and qualities from the monster of legend template.
runestar 04-04-07, 02:05 AM	For negative lvs, there is the scarab of protection from the DMG. Scarab of Protection: This device appears to be a silver medallion in the shape of a beetle. If it is held for 1 round, an inscription appears on its surface letting the holder know that it is a protective device. The scarab’s possessor gains spell resistance 20. The scarab can also absorb energy-draining attacks, death effects, and negative energy effects. Upon absorbing twelve such attacks, the scarab turns to powder and is destroyed. Strong abjuration and necromancy; CL 18th; Craft Wondrous Item, death ward, spell resistance; Price 38,000 gp.
CelestialBarbarian 04-04-07, 02:17 AM	For negative lvs, there is the scarab of protection from the DMG. There's an idea! I'd have to cut down the other items a bit to squeeze it into the 128,000 gp treasure value. I have to redo the special stuff and see what that leaves it with. Edit: For special attacks, among breath weapon (3d6, +13 for paragon), frightful presence, and spells as a 5th-level cleric, that the breath weapon is definitely the least useful. I have the fright presence with a Will DC of 39, but alas it affects creatures with only 10 HD or less, so would be of no use against the party. Would you recommend sticking with the clerical spells? At least he could buff himself with bull's strength and bear's endurance. Edit 2: Oh, I forgot about raging blood. 1d4+13 isn't too bad for "free" damage. Is that better than cleric spells, do you think? Edit 3: I'm really torn on the special qualities. I gave it all 11! After I read your post asking which two I'd chosen, I remembered that I'd read at one point that they get only 2, but I'd forgotten that when I put together the statistics for the minotaur. Now I have to cut out 9 of them. I think that I'll drop enhanced attributes because the minotaur doesn't really have any decent special attacks with save DCs anyway. There's no point in keeping fast healing, DR or SR as the paragon grants all of those and better. That cuts 4, leaving me with 5 more to cut. It might be easier just to decide which two to keep. I'm leaning toward greater damage and reflective hide, although it does such much damage anyway that maybe immunities would provide more value than greater damage. Right now I have it as immune to acid and mind-affecting effects. Edit 4: I thought I might just go through the other special qualities. Being constantly hasted is nice, but 3.5 really reduces the value of an individual haste effect. The paragon furthermore grants haste as a spell-like ability three times per day. The only way in which the constant haste would really prove useful would be if I changed the paragon haste to my campaign's 5th-level spell celerity, which does the same thing as the 3.0 haste did. Then the minotaur could have haste and celerity at the same time. I think though that he's already going to be rather formidible in melee, so I'm not sure that I really need to give him both haste and celerity. Regrow limbs is nice, but if the party can't hit the minotaur in the first place, it doesn't have that much value. The party also doesn't have any means of lopping off limbs (no vorpal weapon, and 3rd Ed seems to have banished the old sharpness weapon). See in darkness can have a great deal of value--if you can create magical darkness. The minotaur can't create magical darkness, however, so it probably would have little value. I though that giving it the fire subtype would prove useful, as creatures (including spellcasters) seem to use fire most of any of the "energy" types. The fire subtype also carries vulnerability to cold, which is only partially offset by the paragon's cold resistance 10. So it's a mixed blessing, and makes the minotaur more vulnerable to the silver dragon cohort's cold breath as well as to polar rays from the party's wizard and sorceress. So that leaves greater damage, reflective hide, and immunities. What do you think? Losing 9 of the special qualities, by the way, makes the abomination alternative more attractive.
runestar 04-04-07, 02:55 AM	Well, with clerical spells, I suppose you could nab practiced spellcasting, getting the ability to procure buffs like divine favour, aid, prayer etc. Unfortunately, that still gives you a caster lv of only 9, which the PCs will have no problems dispelling at all. So I am not sure how much you would benefit from that. As for raging blood, I am expecting that to be moot against your PCs' elemental resistance anyways. But it seems to be the cream of the crap.:P I would forgo greater damage, since the damage increase is not significant. Reflective hide seems too tempting to give up, but it is not without its limitations. Elemental/Mental immunity are good to have, I would probably go with those.
CelestialBarbarian 04-04-07, 04:20 AM	Well, with clerical spells, I suppose you could nab practiced spellcasting, getting the ability to procure buffs like divine favour, aid, prayer etc. Unfortunately, that still gives you a caster lv of only 9, which the PCs will have no problems dispelling at all. So I am not sure how much you would benefit from that. Practiced Spellcaster raises only caster level, not spells per day, so it wouldn't give the minotaur any more spells. As a 5th-level cleric it can cast aid, divine favor, and prayer anyway. I imagine that as you say, the PCs likely would dispel all of those whether cast at 5th level or 9th. I guess for the sorceress, with a caster level of 18, it might make a small difference. She would automatically dispel a spell cast by a 5th level caster, but not one cast by a 9th level caster, but she'd need to roll only a 2 to dispel the later. Of course I suspect it will take them several rounds to decide to try to cast greater dispel magic on the minotaur. I think they'll probably spend a few rounds trying to blast it with spells to overcome its SR. If they do overcome its SR they'll probably keep trying to blast it, although if they realize it's impossible to hit in melee they might try to dispel what they'd guess are buff spells. As for raging blood, I am expecting that to be moot against your PCs' elemental resistance anyways. But it seems to be the cream of the crap.:P Well 1d4+13 is going to overcome the acid resistance 10 of the half-celestial melee guy. I think that the cleric also has acid resistance 10 from a magic item, so it would overcome that too, assuming that he went into melee. Of course they have to hit it in melee to incur the acid damage, and I'm not sure they're going to be doing much of that. The sorceress, wizard and archer aren't going to get into melee range with it anyway, so the wizard and sorceress probably won't need their contingent energy resistance spells (which wouldn't hedge out the entire acid damage) and the archer's lack of resistance to acid won't matter. I would forgo greater damage, since the damage increase is not significant. Reflective hide seems too tempting to give up, but it is not without its limitations. Elemental/Mental immunity are good to have, I would probably go with those. Greater damage takes the powerful charge gore damage from 6d6 to 8d6. Is that significant in our opinion? Edit: I agree that reflective hide seems tempting and yet has serious limitations. There's a good chance that the party will never cast a spell against it that a spell turning would affect. There's a small chance that the wizard might cast a dominate monster, which could have a rather interesting consequence! :)
runestar 04-04-07, 07:03 AM	The purpose of practiced spellcaster is just that - to increase caster lv-based benefits. With cleric5, divine favour grants just +1 to-hit/damage, but practiced spellcaster helps reach the important breakpoint of caster lv9(+3 to-hit/damage, the max it can grant post 3.5 errata). If you so desire, it also helps squeeze out an extra 4 temp hp from aid.:P But mostly for the improved duration and the effect it has on divine favour. On a side note, depending on how confident you are of your saves/sr to protect you, I might contemplate giving up mental immunity and/or reflective hide, if you confident that your PCs will have trouble punching through them.
CelestialBarbarian 04-04-07, 10:52 AM	The purpose of practiced spellcaster is just that - to increase caster lv-based benefits. With cleric5, divine favour grants just +1 to-hit/damage, but practiced spellcaster helps reach the important breakpoint of caster lv9(+3 to-hit/damage, the max it can grant post 3.5 errata). If you so desire, it also helps squeeze out an extra 4 temp hp from aid.:P But mostly for the improved duration and the effect it has on divine favour. On a side note, depending on how confident you are of your saves/sr to protect you, I might contemplate giving up mental immunity and/or reflective hide, if you confident that your PCs will have trouble punching through them. He'd have to give up both mental immunity and acid immunity. If you were going to give the minotaur Practiced Spellcaster, which of his other feats would you drop?
runestar 04-05-07, 12:13 AM	I dunno - what feats does he have?
AaronDireBear 04-05-07, 01:11 AM	You realize that your players WILL eventually have to beat this guy. If cloudkilling him turns out to be his one weakness, so be it. Forcing players to hack and slash with something that tough is gonna lead to a TPK.
runestar 04-05-07, 01:46 AM	That doesn't mean victory has to be handed to them on a silver platter. As it stands, the paragon minotaur does have some stark weaknesses which can lead to a walkover for the PCs if they ever catch on. These are the holes which should be plugged if it is to be meaningful encounter for the PCs, IMO. :)
CelestialBarbarian 04-05-07, 03:46 AM	I dunno - what feats does he have? The creature also has 5 extra hit dice and the feral template. It gets Str 48, Dex 30, Con 42, Int 20, Wis 29, Char 27, Saves 34 30 29. AC 54 (11 natural armor). Feats: Great Fortitude, Power Attack, Track, Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Cleave, Superior Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (horns), Improved Critical (greataxe). On the special attacks and special qualities, I see that I read the entry wrong. Instead of giving it one special attack and two special qualities, I gave it all the special attacks and qualities! Rats! That means I'm going to have to go back and redo it. :( For magic items I was thinking about giving it a +5 greataxe and a +3 amulet of might fists. If I did that it would have another 24,000 worth of treasure. Of course not all the treasure needs to be magic items that the minotaur can use against the party. :D :P :D
runestar 04-05-07, 04:01 AM	Great fortitude? Your fort save does seem respectable enough. Maybe that for practiced spellcaster?
CelestialBarbarian 04-05-07, 04:16 AM	Great fortitude? Your fort save does seem respectable enough. Maybe that for practiced spellcaster? The minotaur has Great Fortitude because the feat comes as one of the base minotaur feats. That doesn't automatically mean I can't change it of course.
CelestialBarbarian 04-05-07, 04:35 AM	You realize that your players WILL eventually have to beat this guy. If cloudkilling him turns out to be his one weakness, so be it. Forcing players to hack and slash with something that tough is gonna lead to a TPK. Actually failure is an option. They could go in, fail to defeat the minotaur, and have to retreat--assuming they can. They might have to return later after they've developed better tactics or abilities (or both). Or they could defeat it by putting it in a forcecage, rescuing the mother, and fleeing. Cloudkill plus forcecage would work great if the party had a cloudkill (and thought to use it), assuming that they could somehow avoid getting the mother in the area of effect of the cloudkill. Remember though that when they see it deal out 60-80 points of damage per hit, they're not going to think, "oh, this is a monster with few hit dice and many templates, so let's use something that would work on a creature with few hit dice." They're going to think it has more hit dice than the highest-level party member. The more we discuss the subject, the more I'm thinking about maybe putting together an abomination version of the epic minotaur. An abomination version might represent a more balance challenge. The party wouldn't luck out and destroy it with one or two relatively low-level spells (it now has 11 hit dice so it's not quite as prone to a one-spell knockout) and wouldn't take such extreme amount of damage per hit from it. They also might find it harder to neutralize with a simple forecage while they rescue the mother, as it would likely have some offensive spell-like abilities and perhaps one supernatural offensive ability too. It might have about as good an armor class, but it's touch AC would likely be much lower, giving the wizard and sorceress a better shot with things like disintegrate, polar ray, and meteor swarm. There would be no chance of controlling it with a dominate monster, but also no chance of a dominate monster turning back in the wizard and allowing the minotaur to have him start blasting his fellow party mates. (Actually that could be kind of fun, though I'm not sure how they'd survive that. I suppose if they got the minotaur in a forcecage they could beat the wizard into unconsciousness and then flee with his body. Oh, and I think the cleric has a break enchantment memorized.) The abomination version would have slightly higher SR, and maybe better DR, although I'm not sure that either would make a big difference. SR 37 is better than SR 35, lowering the chance of a spell working by 10 percentage points. That's not a big shift. As for the SR, if the party doesn't have a +6 weapon, SR 10/epic and good isn't any better than SR 10/epic.
Bernat 04-05-07, 06:34 AM	Actually failure is an option. They could go in, fail to defeat the minotaur, and have to retreat--assuming they can. They might have to return later after they've developed better tactics or abilities (or both). Or they could defeat it by putting it in a forcecage, rescuing the mother, and fleeing. Cloudkill plus forcecage would work great if the party had a cloudkill (and thought to use it), assuming that they could somehow avoid getting the mother in the area of effect of the cloudkill. I hope your party doesn't read these forums :D.
CelestialBarbarian 04-05-07, 06:37 AM	I hope your party doesn't read these forums :D. So far as I know, they don't. Also I think if they did they'd be good about not using player knowledge that the characters don't have. :)