Epic Monk Grappler [Archive] - Wizards Community

Epic Monk Grappler [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GrudgeRockhorn
05-02-07, 07:52 PM We are starting a new epic campaign and I'm just looking at trying to tweak my Half-Orc Monk 11 / Thayan Gladiator 10 / Tattooed Monk 7. I have him geared towards grappling with three magic items that may be of note: Bracers of Relentless Might, Gloves of the Titan, and a Fanged Ring.

The feats I have so far are:
Level Class Feat (Monk Variant: Undying Way)
1 Regional Fearless
1 Level Improved Grapple
1 Monk Improved Unarmed Strike
1 Monk Toughness
2 Monk Endurance
3 Level Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
6 Level Martial Throw
6 Monk Diehard
9 Level Weapon Focus (Grappling)
Multi-Class to Thayan Gladiator at level 12, Require Toughness and Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
12 Level Close Quarters Fighting
13 Thayan Gladiator Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike)
15 Level Acrobatic Strike
18 Level Earth's Embrace
21 Epic Legendary Wrestler
Multi-Class to Tattooed Monk at level 22, Require Endurance, Improved Grapple, and Improved Unarmed Strike
24 Epic Epic Weapon Focus (Grappling)
27 Epic Epic Prowess (+1 attacks)

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Yay first post!
Diplominator
05-02-07, 08:22 PM Just a reminder that you need some way to get rid of freedom of movement, or you're screwed. Either a DM who doesn't like the absolute nature of the spell, or just a item that lets you dispel it, you need something.
Kihon
05-02-07, 09:53 PM Become Undead:

Mummy - every hit causes Disease

Lich - every hit causes paralysis

Vampire - every hit causes level drain

-probably not what you were looking for, but an Undead Monk is a character to truly be feared.
haelduksf
05-03-07, 01:00 AM I just whipped up a grappler (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=705711&page=8)for the epic duels, here's what I learnt:

-Antimagic field is your friend. Takes care of Freedom of Movement, takes care of annoyingly high deflection/force effect AC bonuses, shuts down casters... it's beautiful. If your DM will allow something (For example, an Antimagic Torc from Underdark, or a custom item) with AMF 3, 4 times per day, go for it. Even if it only shuts down an enemy's defences for 10 rounds, you can jump on them and start disarming your heart out.
-Monks are cool, but a barbarian with lots of strength and Devilhusk armour (from the BoED) does just as much damage, and full BAB to boot.
-Have a look at the Chokehold feat from Oriental Adventures, if it's allowed. 10 turns of grappling = a 50% chance of failing a fort save, much higher for casters and rogues
-Don't forget to say explicitly that you're preventing your hapless foes from speaking when you've got 'em pinned.
bluemage55
05-03-07, 02:25 AM -Antimagic field is your friend. Takes care of Freedom of Movement, takes care of annoyingly high deflection/force effect AC bonuses, shuts down casters... it's beautiful. If your DM will allow something (For example, an Antimagic Torc from Underdark, or a custom item) with AMF 3, 4 times per day, go for it. Even if it only shuts down an enemy's defences for 10 rounds, you can jump on them and start disarming your heart out.

Unfortunately, your enemies can be immune to AMF due to epic spells or having DvR 0.

-Don't forget to say explicitly that you're preventing your hapless foes from speaking when you've got 'em pinned.

There is nothing in the rules to suggest that you can do that. Holding an opponent immobile does not mean that you can automatically prevent your foe from speaking.
haelduksf
05-03-07, 03:18 AM Unfortunately, your enemies can be immune to AMF due to epic spells or having DvR 0.

Hmm... I suppose so, but I've never run into anything like that.

There is nothing in the rules to suggest that you can do that. Holding an opponent immobile does not mean that you can automatically prevent your foe from speaking.

If You’re Pinning an Opponent

You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking.
bluemage55
05-03-07, 04:59 AM Hmm, I overlooked that somehow. My mistake.
Grandmaster_Kane
05-03-07, 03:53 PM i would scrap the streetfight class and go for reaping mauler

after all it was made for grappeling
haelduksf
05-03-07, 08:46 PM i would scrap the streetfight class and go for reaping mauler

after all it was made for grappeling

I thought about it, but it really isn't all that effective. The clever wrestling is a waste of time, as it's only good for escaping others' pins, the improved grapple I can get from the Bear Totem Barbarian class, giving up things like trap sense and uncanny dodge, both pretty useless in a 1v1 duel. I can get the choke hold, with a *much* better save DC, with a couple of feats. Also, half the RM's class features only work in light armour, and the devilhusk is medium. The streetfighter's prereqs aren't completely useless (improved feint could come in handy... maybe...) and the stand tough 2/day is really handy when you have an AC under 30.

Plus, it went better with the RP elements: this is a pure berserker, who disdains armour (if I could get the 50-odd damage that the devilhusk gives me any other way, I would ditch the armour,) shrugs off blows, jumps on people and rips them apart. He isn't a clever wrestler, or an agile defender dodging blows.

By the way, GrudgeRockhorn, throw up the stats you end up with, I'll be interested in seeing what yours looks like compared to mine ;)
Grandmaster_Kane
05-04-07, 09:57 AM but if your goinf for chokehold which holds them to 10 round + the reaping maulers devastaing grapple ability where can you go wrong

after you hold them for 3 rounds your snap there necks
haelduksf
05-04-07, 11:00 AM but if your goinf for chokehold which holds them to 10 round + the reaping maulers devastaing grapple ability where can you go wrong

after you hold them for 3 rounds your snap there necks

The problem is, the save-or-die DC is really low. The save for both the sleeper lock and the devastating grapple is 10 + RM level (5) + wis mod (which for iliath is 10). That's a DC25 fort save, which pretty much any l30 can make every time. DC33 isn't that much better, but at least it will give casters and rogue types some worries.

I didn't reccomend RM to Grudge for the same reason. The save or die DC is sad compared to Choke Hold, the other skills granted are OK, but nothing special compared to, say, taking another 5 tattooed monk levels instead.
GrudgeRockhorn
05-04-07, 12:56 PM Yeah the Reaping Mauler has some great abilities with very low DCs for an epic campaign so I declined that idea. You guys are great though with your advice, I never saw that special note about grappling under freedom of movement so I am going to be a bit more versatile then pure grappling, but I'll post the stats when i get things figured out. Thanks for the feedback guys!
Grandmaster_Kane
05-04-07, 03:41 PM You should still take the reaping mauler class

only you need some magical gear to raise the dc

that solves the low save problem
bluemage55
05-04-07, 04:50 PM It is impossible to raise the save DC of any ability faster than your opponents can raise their saves.

At epic, it isn't a good idea to rely on anything that grants a save, unless they cannot be immune to it and you can spam it multiple (5+) times a round.
endofdreams
05-04-07, 08:54 PM As per the reaping mauler area, they give you Improved grapple whenever you are in light or less armor. Wouldn't it make sense that someone planning to be a grappler would already have this feat? it just seems like a foolish concept to me.
Selah
05-07-07, 11:01 PM If the campaign plans on using epic monsters, rather than epic NPCs, even dealing with freedom of movement will not help you against grapple modifiers well in excess of your own. The majority of epic monsters will be able to outgrapple you simply because they have more HD, are stronger, and are bigger than you are.

That doesn't mean you can't continue to play this role; however, your DM must be willing to work with you to come up with a solution for the problem. The simplest solution may be an artifact of some sort that grants you bonuses when grappling, probably with scaling bonuses as you increase in levels and dependent on what you are wrestling (eg you need more help wrestling a virtual age category 17 red dragon than you would facing a gloom with class levels. I think. Going off memory, but very likely!).

Another possibility is giving your character some additional aid with an item that allows use of the wu jen spell giant size. Going colossal is an instant +16 to grappling over and and above a medium creature.

Some creatures can be grappled after first being softened up by the rest of the party, of course...in which case, make sure you also have typical melee combat options of appropriate power for your level (are you the tank, or the support-pseudo-tank? I'm guessing the latter).
haelduksf
05-07-07, 11:36 PM Another possibility is giving your character some additional aid with an item that allows use of the wu jen spell giant size. Going colossal is an instant +16 to grappling over and and above a medium creature.

Good point- and nothing under gargantuan will be able to touch you. Plus, you gain strength as you increase in size.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GrudgeRockhorn 05-02-07, 07:52 PM	We are starting a new epic campaign and I'm just looking at trying to tweak my Half-Orc Monk 11 / Thayan Gladiator 10 / Tattooed Monk 7. I have him geared towards grappling with three magic items that may be of note: Bracers of Relentless Might, Gloves of the Titan, and a Fanged Ring. The feats I have so far are: Level Class Feat (Monk Variant: Undying Way) 1 Regional Fearless 1 Level Improved Grapple 1 Monk Improved Unarmed Strike 1 Monk Toughness 2 Monk Endurance 3 Level Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) 6 Level Martial Throw 6 Monk Diehard 9 Level Weapon Focus (Grappling) Multi-Class to Thayan Gladiator at level 12, Require Toughness and Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) 12 Level Close Quarters Fighting 13 Thayan Gladiator Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike) 15 Level Acrobatic Strike 18 Level Earth's Embrace 21 Epic Legendary Wrestler Multi-Class to Tattooed Monk at level 22, Require Endurance, Improved Grapple, and Improved Unarmed Strike 24 Epic Epic Weapon Focus (Grappling) 27 Epic Epic Prowess (+1 attacks) Any suggestions would be appreciated. Yay first post!
Diplominator 05-02-07, 08:22 PM	Just a reminder that you need some way to get rid of freedom of movement, or you're screwed. Either a DM who doesn't like the absolute nature of the spell, or just a item that lets you dispel it, you need something.
Kihon 05-02-07, 09:53 PM	Become Undead: Mummy - every hit causes Disease Lich - every hit causes paralysis Vampire - every hit causes level drain -probably not what you were looking for, but an Undead Monk is a character to truly be feared.
haelduksf 05-03-07, 01:00 AM	I just whipped up a grappler (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=705711&page=8)for the epic duels, here's what I learnt: -Antimagic field is your friend. Takes care of Freedom of Movement, takes care of annoyingly high deflection/force effect AC bonuses, shuts down casters... it's beautiful. If your DM will allow something (For example, an Antimagic Torc from Underdark, or a custom item) with AMF 3, 4 times per day, go for it. Even if it only shuts down an enemy's defences for 10 rounds, you can jump on them and start disarming your heart out. -Monks are cool, but a barbarian with lots of strength and Devilhusk armour (from the BoED) does just as much damage, and full BAB to boot. -Have a look at the Chokehold feat from Oriental Adventures, if it's allowed. 10 turns of grappling = a 50% chance of failing a fort save, much higher for casters and rogues -Don't forget to say explicitly that you're preventing your hapless foes from speaking when you've got 'em pinned.
bluemage55 05-03-07, 02:25 AM	-Antimagic field is your friend. Takes care of Freedom of Movement, takes care of annoyingly high deflection/force effect AC bonuses, shuts down casters... it's beautiful. If your DM will allow something (For example, an Antimagic Torc from Underdark, or a custom item) with AMF 3, 4 times per day, go for it. Even if it only shuts down an enemy's defences for 10 rounds, you can jump on them and start disarming your heart out. Unfortunately, your enemies can be immune to AMF due to epic spells or having DvR 0. -Don't forget to say explicitly that you're preventing your hapless foes from speaking when you've got 'em pinned. There is nothing in the rules to suggest that you can do that. Holding an opponent immobile does not mean that you can automatically prevent your foe from speaking.
haelduksf 05-03-07, 03:18 AM	Unfortunately, your enemies can be immune to AMF due to epic spells or having DvR 0. Hmm... I suppose so, but I've never run into anything like that. There is nothing in the rules to suggest that you can do that. Holding an opponent immobile does not mean that you can automatically prevent your foe from speaking. If You’re Pinning an Opponent You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking.
bluemage55 05-03-07, 04:59 AM	Hmm, I overlooked that somehow. My mistake.
Grandmaster_Kane 05-03-07, 03:53 PM	i would scrap the streetfight class and go for reaping mauler after all it was made for grappeling
haelduksf 05-03-07, 08:46 PM	i would scrap the streetfight class and go for reaping mauler after all it was made for grappeling I thought about it, but it really isn't all that effective. The clever wrestling is a waste of time, as it's only good for escaping others' pins, the improved grapple I can get from the Bear Totem Barbarian class, giving up things like trap sense and uncanny dodge, both pretty useless in a 1v1 duel. I can get the choke hold, with a much better save DC, with a couple of feats. Also, half the RM's class features only work in light armour, and the devilhusk is medium. The streetfighter's prereqs aren't completely useless (improved feint could come in handy... maybe...) and the stand tough 2/day is really handy when you have an AC under 30. Plus, it went better with the RP elements: this is a pure berserker, who disdains armour (if I could get the 50-odd damage that the devilhusk gives me any other way, I would ditch the armour,) shrugs off blows, jumps on people and rips them apart. He isn't a clever wrestler, or an agile defender dodging blows. By the way, GrudgeRockhorn, throw up the stats you end up with, I'll be interested in seeing what yours looks like compared to mine ;)
Grandmaster_Kane 05-04-07, 09:57 AM	but if your goinf for chokehold which holds them to 10 round + the reaping maulers devastaing grapple ability where can you go wrong after you hold them for 3 rounds your snap there necks
haelduksf 05-04-07, 11:00 AM	but if your goinf for chokehold which holds them to 10 round + the reaping maulers devastaing grapple ability where can you go wrong after you hold them for 3 rounds your snap there necks The problem is, the save-or-die DC is really low. The save for both the sleeper lock and the devastating grapple is 10 + RM level (5) + wis mod (which for iliath is 10). That's a DC25 fort save, which pretty much any l30 can make every time. DC33 isn't that much better, but at least it will give casters and rogue types some worries. I didn't reccomend RM to Grudge for the same reason. The save or die DC is sad compared to Choke Hold, the other skills granted are OK, but nothing special compared to, say, taking another 5 tattooed monk levels instead.
GrudgeRockhorn 05-04-07, 12:56 PM	Yeah the Reaping Mauler has some great abilities with very low DCs for an epic campaign so I declined that idea. You guys are great though with your advice, I never saw that special note about grappling under freedom of movement so I am going to be a bit more versatile then pure grappling, but I'll post the stats when i get things figured out. Thanks for the feedback guys!
Grandmaster_Kane 05-04-07, 03:41 PM	You should still take the reaping mauler class only you need some magical gear to raise the dc that solves the low save problem
bluemage55 05-04-07, 04:50 PM	It is impossible to raise the save DC of any ability faster than your opponents can raise their saves. At epic, it isn't a good idea to rely on anything that grants a save, unless they cannot be immune to it and you can spam it multiple (5+) times a round.
endofdreams 05-04-07, 08:54 PM	As per the reaping mauler area, they give you Improved grapple whenever you are in light or less armor. Wouldn't it make sense that someone planning to be a grappler would already have this feat? it just seems like a foolish concept to me.
Selah 05-07-07, 11:01 PM	If the campaign plans on using epic monsters, rather than epic NPCs, even dealing with freedom of movement will not help you against grapple modifiers well in excess of your own. The majority of epic monsters will be able to outgrapple you simply because they have more HD, are stronger, and are bigger than you are. That doesn't mean you can't continue to play this role; however, your DM must be willing to work with you to come up with a solution for the problem. The simplest solution may be an artifact of some sort that grants you bonuses when grappling, probably with scaling bonuses as you increase in levels and dependent on what you are wrestling (eg you need more help wrestling a virtual age category 17 red dragon than you would facing a gloom with class levels. I think. Going off memory, but very likely!). Another possibility is giving your character some additional aid with an item that allows use of the wu jen spell giant size. Going colossal is an instant +16 to grappling over and and above a medium creature. Some creatures can be grappled after first being softened up by the rest of the party, of course...in which case, make sure you also have typical melee combat options of appropriate power for your level (are you the tank, or the support-pseudo-tank? I'm guessing the latter).
haelduksf 05-07-07, 11:36 PM	Another possibility is giving your character some additional aid with an item that allows use of the wu jen spell giant size. Going colossal is an instant +16 to grappling over and and above a medium creature. Good point- and nothing under gargantuan will be able to touch you. Plus, you gain strength as you increase in size.