Epic Monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Epic Monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mouser27
02-23-07, 06:04 PM I'm asking this question for a friend of mine and i cannot find the answer anywhere i've looked. With monsters (specifically those from the MM) if it doesn't say advance by class level, how do determine when it is an "epic" level monster? I guess what I'm really asking is how do you advance them into epic levels, when they are finally considered epic do the BAB and Save Progressions change from what they are in the MM to the epic progression, and if the monster has special abilities how do you determine that advancement. Finally, what is the best way to determine challenge ratings as with some monsters the new challenge rating doesn't coincide with its abilities.
runestar
02-23-07, 10:19 PM Racial HD alone never triggers epic bab/saves progression. A dragon with 100 racial HD gets bab+100.

As for feats, any creature with 21 or more HD is theoretically eligible for epic feats, though game balance might dictate holding those off until the monster is cr21+, or actually facing an epic lv party. Some epic feats aren't that powerful though, and a non-epic party facing off against a foe with said epic feats might not necessarily be any worse off. Use your own judgement.

As for final cr, use your own good sense as well, since I don't think there is any hard and fast rule.
Light_Colonel
02-23-07, 10:25 PM I usually go under the theory that at CR 21 the monster is Epic.
Alder_Fiter_Galaz
02-25-07, 02:49 PM All monsters of CR 21 or more are epic. but there are more: also monsters with epic damage reduction (such as the tarrasque) are epic.
bluemage55
02-25-07, 03:02 PM Ignore the 2 posters previous to this one as they don't know what they're talking about. A monster, like a character, is epic when it hits 21 HD, and can begin taking epic feats thereafter.

Monsters never use epic progressions for racial HD, so you don't use epic BAB and save progressions unless they take class levels.
Witch
02-25-07, 03:18 PM Ignore the 2 posters previous to this one as they don't know what they're talking about.
That's a bit crude. As a matter of fact, I have to agree with them to a degree. I myself think that a monster has to be CR21+ to be able to take epic feats - not because I think that there is a rule preventing the opposite, but because I think only creatures that are supposed to be epic challenges should be able to have epic feats. Sure, you could switch a large amount of the Tarrasque's feats with epic feats, by the rules. But that would be problematic, and it would definitely raise its CR far, far higher.
Alder_Fiter_Galaz
02-25-07, 03:41 PM All monsters with 21 HD or more are epic?

Its nosense, specially when you see a lot of monsters with more than 21HD that have challenge raiting low than 20, the marilith and older dragons with challenge rating below 21 for example.

Its the epicness (say the power equal to challenge raiting 21 or more) who determinate who is epic no raw hitdice.

Another matter entirelly is when monsters with more than 21 hitdice take class levels, because in that case they become epic.
Witch
02-25-07, 03:44 PM Its nosense, specially when you see a lot of monsters with more than 21HD that have challenge raiting low than 20, the marilith and older dragons with challenge rating below 21 for example.

Its the epicness (say the power equal to challenge raiting 21 or more) who determinate who is epic no raw hitdice.
By the rules, you would be incorrect. By the rules, a monster can take epic feats at 21 HD.
bluemage55
02-25-07, 04:14 PM That's a bit crude. As a matter of fact, I have to agree with them to a degree. I myself think that a monster has to be CR21+ to be able to take epic feats - not because I think that there is a rule preventing the opposite, but because I think only creatures that are supposed to be epic challenges should be able to have epic feats. Sure, you could switch a large amount of the Tarrasque's feats with epic feats, by the rules. But that would be problematic, and it would definitely raise its CR far, far higher.

Those monsters in the MM should instead be rewritten. After all, there are epic feats in the DMG, so the MM would remain contained within Core even if the monsters were given epic feats. The lack is a holdover from 3.0 before epic rules were developed.
Witch
02-25-07, 04:17 PM It would make many undead too powerful (with their tendency to get a lot of HD.)
bluemage55
02-25-07, 07:18 PM It would make many undead too powerful (with their tendency to get a lot of HD.)

That steps into a different design problem.

Undead have precariouly low hp due to their nonexistant Con. As a result, the designers tried to compensate by giving them large amounts of HD.

With Epic feats in the mix, the HD can be lowered, and the feats could be used for defensive feats such as Damage Reduction to make undead a threat past 10th level.
rob_douglas
02-26-07, 12:18 AM The original posters concern I believe was with advancing class levels on a monster that makes it epic. In that case, the answer is that when they have 21 HD, they no longer gain BAB or Saves from class levels, but instead get an Epic BAB and Epic Save at 21 and 22 HD respectively. They can gain Epic feats at 21HD. As can any creature. But as a design feature, you should avoid adding epic feats for creatures that have a CR<21 and only racial HD. IF you make them an Elite creature (using the ELite array) then you could think about using Epic Feats, as those creatures are then something special.

ROB
Witch
02-26-07, 06:47 AM With Epic feats in the mix, the HD can be lowered, and the feats could be used for defensive feats such as Damage Reduction to make undead a threat past 10th level.
It has to do with bad BAB too.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mouser27 02-23-07, 06:04 PM	I'm asking this question for a friend of mine and i cannot find the answer anywhere i've looked. With monsters (specifically those from the MM) if it doesn't say advance by class level, how do determine when it is an "epic" level monster? I guess what I'm really asking is how do you advance them into epic levels, when they are finally considered epic do the BAB and Save Progressions change from what they are in the MM to the epic progression, and if the monster has special abilities how do you determine that advancement. Finally, what is the best way to determine challenge ratings as with some monsters the new challenge rating doesn't coincide with its abilities.
runestar 02-23-07, 10:19 PM	Racial HD alone never triggers epic bab/saves progression. A dragon with 100 racial HD gets bab+100. As for feats, any creature with 21 or more HD is theoretically eligible for epic feats, though game balance might dictate holding those off until the monster is cr21+, or actually facing an epic lv party. Some epic feats aren't that powerful though, and a non-epic party facing off against a foe with said epic feats might not necessarily be any worse off. Use your own judgement. As for final cr, use your own good sense as well, since I don't think there is any hard and fast rule.
Light_Colonel 02-23-07, 10:25 PM	I usually go under the theory that at CR 21 the monster is Epic.
Alder_Fiter_Galaz 02-25-07, 02:49 PM	All monsters of CR 21 or more are epic. but there are more: also monsters with epic damage reduction (such as the tarrasque) are epic.
bluemage55 02-25-07, 03:02 PM	Ignore the 2 posters previous to this one as they don't know what they're talking about. A monster, like a character, is epic when it hits 21 HD, and can begin taking epic feats thereafter. Monsters never use epic progressions for racial HD, so you don't use epic BAB and save progressions unless they take class levels.
Witch 02-25-07, 03:18 PM	Ignore the 2 posters previous to this one as they don't know what they're talking about. That's a bit crude. As a matter of fact, I have to agree with them to a degree. I myself think that a monster has to be CR21+ to be able to take epic feats - not because I think that there is a rule preventing the opposite, but because I think only creatures that are supposed to be epic challenges should be able to have epic feats. Sure, you could switch a large amount of the Tarrasque's feats with epic feats, by the rules. But that would be problematic, and it would definitely raise its CR far, far higher.
Alder_Fiter_Galaz 02-25-07, 03:41 PM	All monsters with 21 HD or more are epic? Its nosense, specially when you see a lot of monsters with more than 21HD that have challenge raiting low than 20, the marilith and older dragons with challenge rating below 21 for example. Its the epicness (say the power equal to challenge raiting 21 or more) who determinate who is epic no raw hitdice. Another matter entirelly is when monsters with more than 21 hitdice take class levels, because in that case they become epic.
Witch 02-25-07, 03:44 PM	Its nosense, specially when you see a lot of monsters with more than 21HD that have challenge raiting low than 20, the marilith and older dragons with challenge rating below 21 for example. Its the epicness (say the power equal to challenge raiting 21 or more) who determinate who is epic no raw hitdice. By the rules, you would be incorrect. By the rules, a monster can take epic feats at 21 HD.
bluemage55 02-25-07, 04:14 PM	That's a bit crude. As a matter of fact, I have to agree with them to a degree. I myself think that a monster has to be CR21+ to be able to take epic feats - not because I think that there is a rule preventing the opposite, but because I think only creatures that are supposed to be epic challenges should be able to have epic feats. Sure, you could switch a large amount of the Tarrasque's feats with epic feats, by the rules. But that would be problematic, and it would definitely raise its CR far, far higher. Those monsters in the MM should instead be rewritten. After all, there are epic feats in the DMG, so the MM would remain contained within Core even if the monsters were given epic feats. The lack is a holdover from 3.0 before epic rules were developed.
Witch 02-25-07, 04:17 PM	It would make many undead too powerful (with their tendency to get a lot of HD.)
bluemage55 02-25-07, 07:18 PM	It would make many undead too powerful (with their tendency to get a lot of HD.) That steps into a different design problem. Undead have precariouly low hp due to their nonexistant Con. As a result, the designers tried to compensate by giving them large amounts of HD. With Epic feats in the mix, the HD can be lowered, and the feats could be used for defensive feats such as Damage Reduction to make undead a threat past 10th level.
rob_douglas 02-26-07, 12:18 AM	The original posters concern I believe was with advancing class levels on a monster that makes it epic. In that case, the answer is that when they have 21 HD, they no longer gain BAB or Saves from class levels, but instead get an Epic BAB and Epic Save at 21 and 22 HD respectively. They can gain Epic feats at 21HD. As can any creature. But as a design feature, you should avoid adding epic feats for creatures that have a CR<21 and only racial HD. IF you make them an Elite creature (using the ELite array) then you could think about using Epic Feats, as those creatures are then something special. ROB
Witch 02-26-07, 06:47 AM	With Epic feats in the mix, the HD can be lowered, and the feats could be used for defensive feats such as Damage Reduction to make undead a threat past 10th level. It has to do with bad BAB too.