Post/Author/DateTime	Post
spike81101 02-28-07, 11:52 AM	I'm going to be doing an ongoing series here, talking about epic monsters that suck, and how to fix them. All comments or even complaints are welcome, as these monsters really should get fixed. I'll start start with an easy one today, epic elementals. The Primal elementals are all basically the same, so I'll just post one of them. Air Elemental, Primal Colossal+ Elemental (Air, Extraplanar) Hit Dice: 64d8+576 (944 hp) Initiative: +24 (+16 Dex, +8 Superior Initiative) Speed: Fly 100 ft. (perfect) AC: 66 (–8 size, +16 Dex, +48 natural) Base Attack/Grapple: +48/+85 Attack: Slam +57 (4d8+16) melee Full Attack: 2 Slams +57 (4d8+16) melee Space/Reach: 30 ft./30 ft. Special Attacks: Air mastery, whirlwind Special Qualities: Elemental traits, DR 10/-–,SR 42 Saves: Fort +42, Ref +52, Will +28 Abilities: Str 32, Dex 43, Con 28, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 13 Skills: Listen +48, Spot +57 Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Flyby Attack, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Mobility, Lightning Reflexes, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (slam) Epic Feats: Blinding Speed (x2), Epic Prowess (x2), Epic Toughness (x4), Epic Will, Superior Initiative Climate/Terrain: Any land Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 35 Treasure: None Alignment: Usually neutral Advancement: 65–288 HD (Colossal) Aside from this guy being susceptable to force tactics, what is he going to do once he has any PC backed into a corner. He is going to pummel a wizard for 4d8+16 three times per round. That is an average of 102 damage per round. Sure, there is the whirlwind ability, which is good but not fantastic. Level 35 wizard (I chose wizard for having the fewest hit points), has 4 + 34d6 (89 average) plus con (8 base 5 inherent, plus 6 enhancement 19) so 4 x 35 = 140+89 = 229 hit points bare minimum for any 35th level wizard. At 102 damage per round, it will take the elemental 3 rounds to kill him, assuming no DR and hitting on all 3 attacks. He is no threat to anyone at CR 35, not even the weakest member of your party unbuffed. Lets fix him a bit shall we? Air Elemental, Primal Titanic Elemental (Air, Extraplanar) Hit Dice: 64d8+768 (1,056 hp) Initiative: +24 (+16 Dex, +8 Superior Initiative) Speed: Fly 100 ft. (perfect) AC: 66 (–8 size, +16 Dex, +48 natural) Base Attack/Grapple: +48/+99 Attack: Slam +68 (8d8+40) melee Full Attack: 4 Slams +68 (8d8+40) melee Space/Reach: 30 ft./30 ft. Special Attacks: Air Supremacy, whirlwind Special Qualities: Elemental traits, DR 16/-–,SR 54 Saves: Fort +42, Ref +52, Will +28 Abilities: Str 64, Dex 43, Con 34, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 13 Skills: Listen +68, Spot +68, Tumble +83 Feats: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Flyby Attack, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack, Iron Will, Mobility, Spring Attack, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam), Whirlwind Attack Epic Feats: Blinding Speed (x2), Damage Reduction (x2), Dire Charge, Epic Will, Improved Whirlwind Attack, Spellcasting Harrier, Superior Initiative Climate/Terrain: Any land Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 35 Treasure: None Alignment: Usually neutral Advancement: 65–288 HD (Colossal) PRIMAL AIR ELEMENTAL Primal air elementals speak Auran. Combat Air Supremacy (Ex): The Primal Air Elemental is surrounded by a raging tempest at all times. The creature's threatened squares are filled with Hurricane-force winds, except that the DC to resist the wind effects is 63. (strength-based) Spells that control winds or weather must succeed in a DC 46 caster level check to supress this effect. This ability does not function in Whirlwind Form. Windwall (Ex): This elemental is affected as if by a permanent wind wall due to it being effectively a living tornado. Whirlwind (Su): The elemental can transform itself into a whirlwind once every 10 minutes and remain in that form for up to 1 round for every 2 HD it has. In this form, the elemental can move through the air or along a surface at its fly speed. A primal air whirlwind is 10 feet wide at the base, 40 feet wide at the top, and up to 80 feet tall. The elemental controls its exact height, but it must be at least 10 feet. Gargantuan or smaller creatures might take damage when caught in the whirlwind and may be lifted into the air. An affected creature must succeed at a Reflex save (DC 69) when it comes into contact with the whirlwind or take 4d8 points of damage. It must also succeed at a second Reflex save (DC 69) or be picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful winds, automatically taking 4d8 points of damage each round. A creature that can fly is allowed a Reflex save (DC 69) each round to escape the whirlwind. The creature still takes damage but can leave if the save is successful. The elemental can eject any carried creatures whenever it wishes, depositing them wherever the whirlwind happens to be. A summoned elemental always ejects trapped creatures before returning to its home plane. If the whirlwind’s base touches the ground, it creates a swirling cloud of debris. This cloud is centered on the elemental and has a diameter equal to half the whirlwind’s height. The cloud obscures all vision, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. Creatures 5 feet away have one-half concealment, while those farther away have total concealment. Those caught in the cloud must succeed at a Concentration check (DC 69) to cast a spell. The DC is Strength-based. Let's look at our new result. 4 + 1 (haste) slams per round. Who says it can only have two? In fact I think that is what is wrong with a lot of these epic monsters. Doing 8d8+40 (average 76 per hit) for 380 damage per round, not including its whirlwind ability. It also has power attack now, granting it the ability to really smack down foes. I realize that it still may be a cakewalk for a CR 35 party, but it is at least worthy of being a minion of some BBEG. Any suggestions on how to further make this guy a real CR 35?
Krispieman 02-28-07, 06:54 PM	Perhaps an additional "fix" could be to adjust the Elemental's Hit Dice back to what it was: 96HD. Adding 32HD is quite a boost, I know (+24BAB, +16Ref, +10Fort/Will, 12 feats orso, and 32 skill points) and would probably require some recalculating, but somewhere between the 3.5 SRD 64HD and the 3.0 EHL 96HD should be a real CR 35 Elemental. Additionally, SR at Epic levels is silly beyond words. I've found it falls into one of the following options: SR is so low, every caster of the correct level will surpass it. SR is so high, there's no chance of success. Who uses a spell that allows SR anyway?By just selecting (Epic/Greater) Spell Penetration any caster can get between +2 and +6 on his caster level check. Add in an orange Ioun Stone or Karma Beads and you're somewhere between +3 and +11. There's more ways to increase this, ofcourse, but those require class choices, so let's leave them out of the equation. So, assuming SR = CR +11, so that there's a 55% chance for a caster (of correct level, without anything) to surpass it that's fine. But with the +3 -> +11 (average +7) You're actually at 80% chance of success. Meaning, IMHO, SR should be raised by at least 7, or CR + 18. In this case: 35+18=53. Additionally, Air Mastery is weak. Here's my suggestion: Air Mastery (Ex): Airborne creatures take a -4 penalty on attack and damage rolls against a primal air elemental. Or perhaps: Air Supremacy (Ex): Airborne creatures take a -4 penalty on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, caster level checks and ability checks against a primal air elemental. In addition, a primal air elemental gains a +4 bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, caster level checks and ability checks against these creatures. Air supremacy may be a bit too powerful, but we're talking Epic, so a special ability should represent at least a few feats worth, right? Just my :twocents: K-man :cool:
dok 02-28-07, 09:14 PM	Ultimately, the problem with the Primal Air Elemental is that it simply doesn't have enough options. Piling on more hit dice will help BAB & saves, but really, it doesn't address the lack of "zing" that an Epic elemental ought to have. So let's see about tweaking those special attacks and special qualities to give the creature a more "Epic" feel... 1.) Air Mastery is simply terrible. -1 to hit and damage at level 35 is meaningless. So let's dump that, and replace it with something more interesting... Air Supremacy (Su): The Primal Air Elemental is surrounded by a raging tempest at all times. The creature's threatened squares are filled with Hurricane-force winds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#winds), except that the DC to resist the wind effects is 53. (strength-based) Spells that control winds or weather must succeed in a DC 46 caster level check (based on 10+CR) to supress this effect. This ability does not function in Whirlwind Form. 2.) Feat Selection. Let's start by dumping some of the 'wasted' feats: Lightning Reflexes, Alertness, and Epic Prowess (x2). Let's raise the intelligence score to 13 (boo hoo), and add Combat Expertise and Whirlwind Attack. Now let's use one of those Epic Feats for Improved Whirlwind Attack (which can be used with Flyby Attack!) and put the other into Damage Reduction which gives us a better DR than its non-Epic counterparts. Now we've got an Epic Creature that you can't fire ranged missles at, that requires constant saving throws to even approach in melee, and that can fly into the middle of a group, attack everyone, and fly away every round.
runestar 02-28-07, 10:58 PM	You could add a template which grants benefits off HD, such as the phrenic template(manifestor lv of 96 at cr40?):eek: Some creative templating should solve the problem...
Krispieman 03-01-07, 07:18 AM	I have to say I like Dok's version of Air Supremacy and fully agree with redoing the feat selection to less crap. My one comment, though: Shouldn't it be an (Ex) ability? Otherwise his Air Supremacy can be dampened by a simple antimagic field. May not be a problem, because it would affect the PCs as well, but suddenly the fighters no longer need to make saves to approach and the ranger can shoot arrows at him (even if they're all non-magical and have only small chance of penetration the DR). Kinda defeats the purpose of the ability, IMHO. K-man :cool:
spike81101 03-01-07, 08:40 AM	I updated him, adding Air supremacy and changing the feats to something that actually does SOMETHING. On a side note, I'm going to be keeping these creatures SRD friendly. I'm also not going to be adding templates. I'm want to edit the base creature so that it is worth a damn. There are still some things about it that make it a bit less than a CR 35, it cannot overcome obsctacles created by the PCs, such as walls of force/prismatic walls, but I see this creature more as something that could be summoned by a 35th level wizard (hence the reason I don't want to increase the HD). Is four slams per round appropriate? Deal this guy deal out enough damage to be a threat to everyone in the party?
Witch 03-01-07, 08:42 AM	Ultimately, the problem with the Primal Air Elemental is that it simply doesn't have enough options. Piling on more hit dice will help BAB & saves, but really, it doesn't address the lack of "zing" that an Epic elemental ought to have. I disagree that it should have more options. It's just a real powerful air elemental. If you want an air elemental with more options, it should either exist aside the ones in the SRD, or be a unique creature.
Krispieman 03-01-07, 10:53 AM	@Spike: don't forget that the increase in Intelligence also grants the elemental extra skill points. Here's my suggestion: Listen +68, Spot +68, Tumble +83 Total skill points: (HD+3) x (2+Int mod) = 67 x 3 = 201. Max ranks = (HD+3) = 67. Max ranks Listen: 67 Max ranks Spot: 67 Max ranks Tumble: 67 (13) Wisdom modifier: +1 (43) Dexterity modifier: +16I added Tumble as a racial skill because of the Air Elemental's high dexterity. The other kinds of Elementals should each have a different 3rd skill (Earth - Concentration, Fire - Intimidate, Water - swim)? Now that I look at it, I think the SRD version has some wrong numbers in it for skills. Listen +48, Spot +57 Total skill points: (HD+3) x (2+Int mod) = 67 x 1 = 67. Max ranks = (HD+3) = 67. (13) Wisdom modifier: +1 Alertness: +2 Listen 45 ranks, Spot 54 ranks = 99 skill points spent. 32 to many. Exactly the loss of HD in the 3.0 -> 3.5 conversion Not quite sure what I feel about the 4 slams yet, but my initial feeling is to go with it. @Witch: While I agree that a Primal Elemental should be nothing more than a really powerful and dangerous elemental, this doesn't rule out extra feat options. The change in Air Mastery seems fitting as additional "zing" and the feat changes are nothing more than a slight change of style. In theory each Primal (Air) Elemental could chose different feats, the only thing we're suggesting here is that the majority of them have Improved Whirlwind Attack (and prereq's) granting them more options by feat merit and not because they are a certain creature (meaning unique abilities). After all, if you advance an Elder Air Elemental to 48HD (i.e. +24 HD) you're granting it 8 feats and 6 stats. 3 of the stat points could be put into Intelligence, making it 13, and the other 3 anywhere. Because this requires 12 HD, the other 12 HD or 4 feats can be linked to Combat Expertise and lead to Whirlwind Attack as it al ready has Mobility and Spring Attack. (Found another error. The Greater and Elder Air Elemental (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersEtoF.html#air-elemental) both lack the Dodge feat, but do have Mobility. Yet Mobility is not marked as a bonus(B) feat. Not even mentioned in the Errata so am I the first to notice this?) K-man :cool:
spike81101 03-01-07, 10:54 AM	I disagree that it should have more options. It's just a real powerful air elemental. If you want an air elemental with more options, it should either exist aside the ones in the SRD, or be a unique creature.I agree with you there. Some creatures by their very nature are not going to have options, like the Tarrasque, or devastation vermin, or even golems for that matter. These elementals could have easily been defeated by a CR 20 party. That is not the case with these modifications...at least not easily. A few of these guys along with a BBEG is much better now, before their piddling damage wasn't enough to scare anyone.
Starmage21 03-01-07, 10:59 AM	I disagree that it should have more options. It's just a real powerful air elemental. If you want an air elemental with more options, it should either exist aside the ones in the SRD, or be a unique creature. If you want something thats more powerful than "just another elemental", you should be using a chichimec(sp?) abomination. Those things ARE useful to a DM who wants a more powerful enemy. I tend not to use abominations here and there because they have the divine spark, but often my epic campaigns include cataclysmic events and encountering one or two is usually planned. Now, if youre trying to put stats to some kind of elemental lord, rather than the biggest baddest "regular" elemental(that the primals are), then have fun :D
bluemage55 03-01-07, 12:10 PM	(Found another error. The Greater and Elder Air Elemental (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersEtoF.html#air-elemental) both lack the Dodge feat, but do have Mobility. Yet Mobility is not marked as a bonus(B) feat. Not even mentioned in the Errata so am I the first to notice this?) This is pure error, it would seem, as the previous elementals all have Dodge.
spike81101 03-01-07, 01:14 PM	If you want something thats more powerful than "just another elemental", you should be using a chichimec(sp?) abomination. Those things ARE useful to a DM who wants a more powerful enemy. I tend not to use abominations here and there because they have the divine spark, but often my epic campaigns include cataclysmic events and encountering one or two is usually planned. Now, if youre trying to put stats to some kind of elemental lord, rather than the biggest baddest "regular" elemental(that the primals are), then have fun :DKeep in mind the point of this post is to make fix existing creatures so that they work better at their power level. Changing feats around and editing minor abilities isn't a big deal. The creature is still the same as intended by the authors, "A big tough elemental." If you want a random encounter, this is your guy. These guys simply existing on the elemental planes and you don't have to worry about a ton of story line about why they existing or who they are like you do with demi-liches and abominations. I think this guy is done and is as optimized as we can get him using the constraints set forth by its author.
bluemage55 03-01-07, 02:27 PM	Actually, I think it would be better to simply review the CR and lower it appropriately rather than revising the monster. My playtesting and analysis came up with CR 20, so you could just leave it as is (excepting the Dodge fix) and lower the CR to 20.
spike81101 03-01-07, 02:34 PM	Actually, I think it would be better to simply review the CR and lower it appropriately rather than revising the monster.Impossible with this creature I'd say. How are you going to peg a CR on a creature with nearly 1,000 hit points, and yet it deals MAYBE 102 damage per round? I'm doubting its ability to kill anyone in a CR 20 group, and with all those hit points combat could take forever.
bluemage55 03-01-07, 02:40 PM	It's whirlwind can severely inhibit any group, given that no ECL 20 character could possibly make the saves except on a 20. The difficult Concentration check may inhibit attempts to heal the damage it deals. It's SR would also be unbeatable at that point, it's AC is unhittable except on 20s, and DR 10/- is fairly decent against mobs. It will never fail a save against an ECL 20 party except on 1s, and every single attack it makes will connect except on 1s. It has the speed necessary to chase down most characters, and can engage in repeated hit-and-run against characters that don't bother with speed. Combat may take time, but the air elemental is definitely no pushover at CR 20. It can also inflict severe psychological damage by fleeing after the party burns their resources to deal 700 or so damage to it, and then returning later. Will save for the players or they begin banging their heads on a wall. :D
spike81101 03-01-07, 03:55 PM	Precisely, I don't know any players who want an encounter like that. Not because it is a tough encounter, but because it is extremely boring. One encounter shouldn't take 4 hours.
Upper_Krust 03-01-07, 04:29 PM	Hey Spike! :) Cool idea for a thread - I may steal the idea from you for a website article (unless you have any objections?) The Primal Elementals are totally weird in that you would think elementals better than 24 HD would be the Elemental Princes and other intelligent nobility. However, assuming we are trying to keep the same principle a few changes I would suggest include: 1. Make the Primal Elemental Titanic size (aka Colossal +)....8d6 base damage 2. Make sure it has Improved Natural Attack (slam)...8d8 base damage 3. Titanic sized creatures should have a bare minimum of 60 strength, so lets double that Str 32 to Str 64 (+27) 4. Likewise Con should be about 34 5. Hurricane Force: anyone struck by the slam of a Primal Air Elemental should be blown back as if by a hurrican strength wind. 6. 50% miss chance: It should be very difficult to target an air elemental.
angryman 03-01-07, 11:40 PM	Windwall (Ex): This elemental is affected as if by a permanent wind wall due to it being effectively a living tornado. That might also work.
runestar 03-02-07, 02:34 AM	I suppose reworking its feats might go a long way in improving how it fares in combat, especially with all the new-fangled feats in CW...:P I can see it doing decent damage with improved rapidstrike. Improved whirlwind(assuming you somehow qualify for it) works well in tandem with flyby attack. Anyway of taking advantage of all those AoOs it gets by virtue of combat reflexes and its high dex?:)
spike81101 03-02-07, 09:27 AM	Hey Spike! :) Cool idea for a thread - I may steal the idea from you for a website article (unless you have any objections?) The Primal Elementals are totally weird in that you would think elementals better than 24 HD would be the Elemental Princes and other intelligent nobility. However, assuming we are trying to keep the same principle a few changes I would suggest include: 1. Make the Primal Elemental Titanic size (aka Colossal +)....8d6 base damage 2. Make sure it has Improved Natural Attack (slam)...8d8 base damage 3. Titanic sized creatures should have a bare minimum of 60 strength, so lets double that Str 32 to Str 64 (+27) 4. Likewise Con should be about 34 5. Hurricane Force: anyone struck by the slam of a Primal Air Elemental should be blown back as if by a hurrican strength wind. 6. 50% miss chance: It should be very difficult to target an air elemental. Steal Away! It was meant to be done Article Style, I just don't have to do it all myself right now and thought it would be fun for the community to help out. 1. Not a bad idea, I can't seem to find what stats for titanic in the SRD. Anyone got them handy? Race, reach, AC/attack penalty? I could Assume what it is but you know what happens then... 2. How could I have forgotten about improved Natural attack! 3. I bumped up its strength already, but yes getting to up 64 isn't a bad idea. 4. Yes, it should have a few more hps for CR 35 anyway. 5. I'm not so sure about this one. As I've given it a similar ability. 6. 50% miss chance from what? Concealment? Adding windwall to its abilities seems appropriate.
rob_douglas 03-02-07, 10:14 AM	1. Not a bad idea, I can't seem to find what stats for titanic in the SRD. Anyone got them handy? Race, reach, AC/attack penalty? I could Assume what it is but you know what happens then... I think it is in the Epic Dragons section - it only increases Cone breath, and base damage. UK's Titanic is in his Immortals Handbook, and adds in reach and space changes as well. 5. I'm not so sure about this one. As I've given it a similar ability. Also - this ability could actually hurt the Air Elemental - because it would lose the ability to full attack. Instead, give it Awesome Blow. 6. 50% miss chance from what? Concealment? Yeah, I don't see the reason for this - unless all Air Elementals had it. Adding windwall to its abilities seems appropriate. Sure, though it seems similar to the existing Air Mastery that you already have. AS long as you can't use missiles against it. Great thread idea BTW. There are some creatures in the ELH that need this treatment badly. THey are great fluff, but really poor execution. ROB
LordBOB777 03-02-07, 12:18 PM	The Titanic Template is in MM 2. Somewhere along the lines of page 215 or so. Sure the Template is 3.0, but im sure someone here is qualified enough to udate it. EDIT: Template is on 217
spike81101 03-02-07, 01:30 PM	Ok, I updated it. He is much stronger than before, with a few more options and a few extra abilities. I'll be posting the other elemenals as well. I'm glad people like this thread, I'm just sorry my code ability sucks and I can't get it to look better. I was just looking at the SRD and looking at all the creatures that my level 25 character (Gish) can defeat on his own without breaking a sweat. This guy was at the top of that list, a mob 10 CR's higher...that just isn't right. I hope to fix them all eventually, one mob at a time, one week at a time.
spike81101 03-02-07, 02:01 PM	Here is the Earth Elemental with similar optimization applied. Earth Elemental, Primal Titanic Elemental (Earth, Extraplanar) Hit Dice: 64d8+1,024 (1,312 hp) Initiative: +9 (+1 Dex, +8 Superior Initiative) Speed: 20 ft., burrow 40 ft. AC: 51 (–8 size, +1 Dex, +48 natural) BAB/Grapple: +48/+99 Attack: Slam +68 (8d10+40/19-20) melee Full Attack: 4 slams +57 (8d10+40/19-20) melee Space/Reach: 30 ft./30 ft. Special Attacks: Earth mastery, push Special Qualities: Elemental traits, DR 36/–, SR 54 Saves: Fort +50, Ref +23, Will +28 Abilities: Str 64, Dex 13, Con 42, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 13 Skills: Jump +94, Listen +68, Spot +68 Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam) Epic Feats: Damage Reduction (x7), Devastating Critical (slam), Overwhelming Critical (slam), Superior Initiative Climate/Terrain: Any land Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 35 Treasure: None Alignment: Usually neutral Advancement: 65–288 HD (Colossal) Primal Earth Elemental Earth elementals speak Terran. Combat Earth Mastery (Ex) An earth elemental gains a +4 attack and damage bonus if both it and its foe touch the ground. If an opponent is airborne or water-borne, the elemental takes a -4 penalty on attack and damage rolls. (These modifiers are not included in the statistics block.) Push (Ex) An earth elemental can start a bull rush maneuver without provoking an attack of opportunity. The combat modifiers given for earth mastery, above, also apply to the elemental’s opposed Strength checks.
bluemage55 03-02-07, 02:50 PM	I did some revising of the air elemental and this is what I came up with. Air Elemental, Primal Colossal Elemental (Air, Extraplanar) Hit Dice: 64d8+512 (800 hp) Initiative: +23 Speed: Fly 100 ft. (perfect) (20 squares) AC: 36 (–8 size, +15 Dex, +19 natural), touch 17, flat-footed 21 Base Attack/Grapple: +48/+79 Attack: Slam +64 (8d6+30, 19-20/x2) melee Full Attack: 2 Slams +64 (8d6+30, 19-20/x2) melee Space/Reach: 30 ft./30 ft. Special Attacks: Air mastery, whirlwind Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/–, darkvision 60 ft., elemental traits Saves: Fort +29, Ref +49, Will +25 Abilities: Str 40, Dex 40, Con 26, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 17 Skills: Listen +71, Spot +71, Tumble +82 Feats: Alertness, Blind-fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Flyby Attack, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (Slam), Improved Flyby Attack, Improved InitiativeB, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (Slam) Epic Feats: Devastating Critical, Dire Charge, Improved Combat Reflexes, Overwhelming Critical (Slam), Spellcasting Harrier, Superior Initiative Climate/Terrain: Elemental Plane of Air Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 25 Treasure: None Alignment: Usually neutral Advancement: 65–216 HD (Colossal) PRIMAL AIR ELEMENTAL Primal air elementals speak Auran and Draconic. Combat Air Mastery (Ex): Airborne creatures take a –1 penalty on attack and damage rolls against an air elemental. Whirlwind (Su): A primal air elemental can transform itself into a whirlwind at will as a standard action and remain in that form indefinitely. In this form, the elemental can move through the air or along a surface at its fly speed. The whirlwind is 10 feet wide at the base, up to 50 feet wide at the top, and up to 80 feet tall. The elemental controls the exact height, but it must be at least 20 feet. The elemental’s movement while in whirlwind form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if the elemental enters the space another creature occupies. Another creature might be caught in the whirlwind if it touches or enters the whirlwind, or if the elemental moves into or through the creature’s space. Gargantuan or smaller creatures might take damage when caught in the whirlwind and may be lifted into the air. An affected creature must succeed on a DC 57 Reflex save when it comes into contact with the whirlwind or take 4d8 points of damage. It must also succeed on a second DC 57 Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful winds, automatically taking the indicated damage each round. A creature that can fly is allowed a Reflex save each round to escape the whirlwind. The creature still takes damage but can leave if the save is successful. The save DC is Strength based. A creature trapped in a whirlwind cannot move except to go where the elemental carries it or to escape the whirlwind. It can otherwise act normally, but must succeed on a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in a whirlwind take a –4 penalty to Dexterity and a –2 penalty on attack rolls. The elemental can have only as many creatures trapped inside a whirlwind at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind’s volume. A primal air elemental can eject any carried creatures whenever it wishes, depositing them wherever the whirlwind happens to be. A summoned elemental always ejects trapped creatures before returning to its home plane. If the whirlwind’s base touches the ground, it creates a swirling cloud of debris. This cloud is centered on the elemental and has a diameter equal to half the whirlwind’s height. The cloud obscures all vision, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. Creatures 5 feet away have concealment, while those farther away have total concealment. Those caught in the cloud must succeed on a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell. An elemental in whirlwind form cannot make slam attacks and does not threaten the area around it. Major Changes to Original Primal Elemental I revised its CR to be in line with adding elemental HD to an elemental Monolith. Feats were heavily revised. Using Dire Charge, the air elemental can use both attacks on a downward charge (double damage on both attacks if angle is greater than 45 degrees). Woe to any party not immune to grappling or Devastating Critical. The ability scores were adjusted to appropriate amounts. The natural armor was reduced to appropriate amounts. SR was removed. A rapid barrage of damaging spells (spellcasters will delight in unloading all of those heavily metamagicked offensive spells) and physical attacks (melee combatants will laugh at the AC, although the DR can be annoying) can deplete its hit points quickly, and repeatedly spammed save-or-dies can also take it down. However, the weaker members of an ECL 25 party cannot afford to take many hits (and its possible they may not be able to move away quickly enough), and they will have to spread themselves out to avoid Improved Whirlwind attack, so healing may not be forthcoming to an injured party member. It's whirlwind DC is also extremely high, and parties will not be able to escape it easily. When the primal air elemental has allies, it can easily prove to be extremely deadly by shutting down the party with its whirlwind while its allies deal damage to the relatively helpless party. Edit: Revised elemental to fit CR 25.
spike81101 03-02-07, 10:52 PM	It would probably be easier to advance the elemental monolith from complete arcane. They are CR 17 already so they would probably be better to advance to CR 21 if you want a CR 21 elemental.
rob_douglas 03-03-07, 01:03 PM	Damage on the Earth Elemental's single attack is too low. You have +24. Should be more. ROB
spike81101 03-03-07, 01:58 PM	Damage on the Earth Elemental's single attack is too low. You have +24. Should be more. ROB Thanks, I changed it to +40.
bluemage55 03-03-07, 04:30 PM	It would probably be easier to advance the elemental monolith from complete arcane. They are CR 17 already so they would probably be better to advance to CR 21 if you want a CR 21 elemental. Thanks for the headsup, I took a look at the monolith and realized that it was a better starting point than the elder elemental. I also realized that CR 21 would probably step on the monolith's toes, so I upped it to CR 25, making appropriate adjustments. CR 25 for all of the primal elementals seems appropriate to me. The fact that they are simply big bruisers with very little in the way of immunities or combat options makes them completely worthless at CR 35 unless you add substantial new abilities. By keeping them at CR 25, you can maintain the consistent progression of elementals (each one is simply a bigger, stronger version of the last with more HD), and reserve higher CRs for the truly dangerous and intelligent elemental princes.
Upper_Krust 03-04-07, 09:26 AM	Hey spike dude! :) Steal Away! It was meant to be done Article Style, I just don't have to do it all myself right now and thought it would be fun for the community to help out. Thanks! :D 6. 50% miss chance from what? Concealment? I just always thought that it would be difficult to tell where the edges of an air elemental were. I mean I know its a tornado but it must also be spinning the air immediately around it. So it should be difficult to tell where the air ends and the air elemental begins. Hence the idea of the 50% miss chance. ...and yes I would apply this to all air elementals.
rob_douglas 03-05-07, 12:25 AM	Speaking of the Elemental Princes, you are all aware that they made appearances in recent Dragon Mags? I don't have the numbers now, but could get them tomorrow. The suffer much as do the demon lords - not being powerful enough, but they could be epic-ized. They are currently CR21-25, and yes, they should be bumped up, though not as powerful as the archfiends. But please, if we want to talk about them - someone start a new thread. ROB