Epic Non-Core Material is where? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Epic Non-Core Material is where? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Johnny_Angel
05-04-07, 04:25 PM Where can I find epic material and epic progressions for some of the new classes? I know that a lot of the books say that you should speak to your dm and work something out, but I tend to be the DM in the group I regularly play with at home, and I don't have much experience with creating progressions. I assumed that things such as the warmage, mind bender, and other variations of the core spellcasters would have the same basic progression that wizards and sorcerors do.

The main book I'm having trouble with is The Tome of Magic and the new classes in there. Has anyone played these classes beyond 20th level? If so, what advice can you offer me?

Also, on a related note: I have considered replacing the standard spellcasters with the Tome of Magic Classes for a lower-magic/darker setting, but I'm not entirely sure how balanced those classes are in relation to the more melee-oriented classes when placed in a campaign with a lower level of magic and magical items.
Witch
05-05-07, 12:29 PM Tome of Magic is incredibly difficult to advance to Epic - the Shadowcaster should be doable, but Truenamer and Binder will require addition of far more new mechanics. Something similar goes for the Tome of Battle. It's difficult to continue these in the higher levels, at least more difficult than say, the Complete Books. You should look around on these boards and Dicefreaks; occassionally, there's people who post attempts for Tome of Magic classes (more recently, Tome of Battle).
Johnny_Angel
05-05-07, 03:27 PM Tome of Magic is incredibly difficult to advance to Epic - the Shadowcaster should be doable, but Truenamer and Binder will require addition of far more new mechanics. Something similar goes for the Tome of Battle. It's difficult to continue these in the higher levels, at least more difficult than say, the Complete Books. You should look around on these boards and Dicefreaks; occassionally, there's people who post attempts for Tome of Magic classes (more recently, Tome of Battle).

Thanks for the reply. I love the binder class, so it's the main one I would like to expand. The advice in the book is a little vague...helpful, but vague.
Taeldrin Laesrash
05-06-07, 06:30 PM The Epic Binder is mainly difficult to scale into Epic levels due to the need or want of Epic Vestiges. Honestly, they're otherwise pretty simple, they have numerous scaling class abilties and already have a bonus feat progression.

Also, on a related note: I have considered replacing the standard spellcasters with the Tome of Magic Classes for a lower-magic/darker setting, but I'm not entirely sure how balanced those classes are in relation to the more melee-oriented classes when placed in a campaign with a lower level of magic and magical items.

The Binder (Without Wizards, Clerics, Druids, etc) would be the most powerful class available. They'd have numerous means to deal heavy damage to a foe, and could outdo a Fighter or Barbarian on a regular basis with the right vestiges. Truenamers are unusable with the current Truespeak DCs, lowered, they'd be semipowerful and mainly buffers.
Witch
05-06-07, 06:44 PM Current Truespeak DCs are insignificant provided some items are bought. However, they're still useless because most of their utterances are crap :)
Taeldrin Laesrash
05-06-07, 09:15 PM Current Truespeak DCs are insignificant provided some items are bought. However, they're still useless because most of their utterances are crap :)

They're not total crap. If the DCs were lowered, they'd be more like invocations than spells, used in quick bursts for suddenly necessary effects. Combined with Speak With The Masses, they can heal or harm large numbers of targets, something normal spellcasters have some difficulty with (At the least, requiring a feat). And with medium BAB, Truenamers can be good fighters, especially with the Acolyte of the Ego PrC.
Luis_Dragunov
05-07-07, 04:23 AM Epic Binders? What do you bind? Avatars? :D

On a more serious note, however, it's only a matter of making epic vestiges with epic DCs who do epic stuff. Get to work, young man!

As for ToB, I could dare to say that the classes therein probably break the rule of "No more spells/spell-look-alike features after lvl20" because, seriously, it's the only thing going on for them... unless someone comes up with Epic Maneuvers like there is Epic Spellcasting... actually, that does sound cool!
bluemage55
05-07-07, 07:56 AM As for ToB, I could dare to say that the classes therein probably break the rule of "No more spells/spell-look-alike features after lvl20" because, seriously, it's the only thing going on for them... unless someone comes up with Epic Maneuvers like there is Epic Spellcasting... actually, that does sound cool!

There's certainly no need for that. Epic ToB characters increase their Initiator Level, and pick up epic bonus feats at a quick rate. These feats can in turn be spent on special epic feats designed to improve their ability to use maneuvers/stances/counters.
Johnny_Angel
05-07-07, 10:12 AM I was mainly looking for material dealing with books other than Tome of Battle. I have and like that book as well, but it seems to be the one given the most attention. Tome of Magic is the main book I was looking into how to expand; but I was also looking at classes such as the warlock, the marshal, and... well, basically, the classes outside of core material that are different enough from the more common classes to need unique progressions.

Like I said in my previous post(s), I figured that classes such as the the mindbender, warmage, and etc that are similar to current classes (i.e. sorceror and wizard) would follow the epic progression that the classes they are similar to would follow (i.e. sorceror and wizard.)

I suppose my question extends to prestigue classes as well though. Say -for example- that I am a sorceror; I start taking a prestigue class - for the sake of example, we'll say that I'm taking levels in the master transmogrophist prc. I'm a 15th lvl sorceror when I begin taking the prc, so for 5 levels I follow my normal progression. What happens when I cross the epic threshold though? Since I'm taking the prc, do I just not get any of the bonus feats that a sorceror would? It appears that way because the prc (and most prcs) state that while I continue to increase my caster level and gain spells that I do not gain any other benefit that would come with gaining a level. I suppose in the case of a prc that might balance out because I am gaining powers which are unusual compared to someone who hadn't taken a prc.

Ok, I rambled there for a bit, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not sure at what levels some of the non-core classes would gain feats and other things of that nature once gaining epic status. The ToM classes seem to be the most difficult to compare to the normally used classes.

I appreciate the feedback on the binder; I had thought about the fact that the binder could (and probably would) become a lot more powerful if magic items (and magic in general) was more limited. The flavor of it seems like it would be well suited to a darker themed campaign though.
Witch
05-07-07, 10:17 AM For Warlocks, there's an epic progression listed. There's also epic feats on the WotC site.

For prestige classes: http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1942
Pitiless_Interfector
05-07-07, 05:51 PM Also, on a related note: I have considered replacing the standard spellcasters with the Tome of Magic Classes for a lower-magic/darker setting, but I'm not entirely sure how balanced those classes are in relation to the more melee-oriented classes when placed in a campaign with a lower level of magic and magical items.

Another good class to add is warlock; they're extremely simple (they can use their invocation spell-like abilities at will and only learn a dozen of them over 20 levels), low-magic (teleporting from one end of a football field to the other pre-epic would require a magic item, and the best damage they can consistently do is about 15d6 in a 20-ft-radius spread, with virtually no shapechanging, no dominate monster [they have a charm effect, though, but limited to one target at a time], no divination, no useful area abjuration, etc.), and very dark (they can animate skeletons and zombies, conjure darkness filled with bats, call forth plagues of locusts, turn people into newts [though they can make a Fort save to 'get better'], fly, breathe water, set things on fire with a ray attack, bestow curses, and turn invisible [they can see invisible things, too, and get darkvision]. Note that they can only do two or three of these things very well). And you might want to check out the link in my sig; if you have Complete Arcane, you might want to play-test some of the stuff in the link (see sig); I haven't had time to playtest it, but you might. And if you don't have Complete Arcane, you might want to think twice about messing around with the magic system; the last few chapters on in-world and meta-DMing magic are truly illuminating.

Note: This article may contain self-promotion or advertising for an item or items in the signature below. Complaining to the Wiz_O may result in my whining via sock-puppet for a week or more. You have been, in a roundabout manner, alerted indirectly to the paralegal consequences of complaining. Do not attempt to adjust your medication. Simply click the mouse to make my evil words go away. :gel:
rob_douglas
05-09-07, 03:15 AM Johnny_Angel

Yes - you are correct, if you take 15 levels of Sor, then 5 PrC, and then continue the PrC, you gain no bonus epic feats. Bonus epic feats are awarded on a class by class basis for class levels gained above 20 for base and 10 for Prestige classes, or all levels of Epic PrCs. The ideal use of a PrC is to complete it right at 20th level, then continue taking it into Epic to gain bonus feats.

However, you still gain Epic Feats based on character level at Epic, so it is not a total loss. There are also the 5 level PrCs that offer some nice benefits post-epic (archmage and hierophant) that will also slow down your epic bonus feat progression, but are often worth it.

Also, if you did your Sor15/PrC5 build and decided not to finish out the PrC and wanted to go back to Sor, you would need to go to Sor23/PrC5 (at 28th level) to gain your Sorc23 bonus epic feat. Just FYI.

ROB

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Johnny_Angel 05-04-07, 04:25 PM	Where can I find epic material and epic progressions for some of the new classes? I know that a lot of the books say that you should speak to your dm and work something out, but I tend to be the DM in the group I regularly play with at home, and I don't have much experience with creating progressions. I assumed that things such as the warmage, mind bender, and other variations of the core spellcasters would have the same basic progression that wizards and sorcerors do. The main book I'm having trouble with is The Tome of Magic and the new classes in there. Has anyone played these classes beyond 20th level? If so, what advice can you offer me? Also, on a related note: I have considered replacing the standard spellcasters with the Tome of Magic Classes for a lower-magic/darker setting, but I'm not entirely sure how balanced those classes are in relation to the more melee-oriented classes when placed in a campaign with a lower level of magic and magical items.
Witch 05-05-07, 12:29 PM	Tome of Magic is incredibly difficult to advance to Epic - the Shadowcaster should be doable, but Truenamer and Binder will require addition of far more new mechanics. Something similar goes for the Tome of Battle. It's difficult to continue these in the higher levels, at least more difficult than say, the Complete Books. You should look around on these boards and Dicefreaks; occassionally, there's people who post attempts for Tome of Magic classes (more recently, Tome of Battle).
Johnny_Angel 05-05-07, 03:27 PM	Tome of Magic is incredibly difficult to advance to Epic - the Shadowcaster should be doable, but Truenamer and Binder will require addition of far more new mechanics. Something similar goes for the Tome of Battle. It's difficult to continue these in the higher levels, at least more difficult than say, the Complete Books. You should look around on these boards and Dicefreaks; occassionally, there's people who post attempts for Tome of Magic classes (more recently, Tome of Battle). Thanks for the reply. I love the binder class, so it's the main one I would like to expand. The advice in the book is a little vague...helpful, but vague.
Taeldrin Laesrash 05-06-07, 06:30 PM	The Epic Binder is mainly difficult to scale into Epic levels due to the need or want of Epic Vestiges. Honestly, they're otherwise pretty simple, they have numerous scaling class abilties and already have a bonus feat progression. Also, on a related note: I have considered replacing the standard spellcasters with the Tome of Magic Classes for a lower-magic/darker setting, but I'm not entirely sure how balanced those classes are in relation to the more melee-oriented classes when placed in a campaign with a lower level of magic and magical items. The Binder (Without Wizards, Clerics, Druids, etc) would be the most powerful class available. They'd have numerous means to deal heavy damage to a foe, and could outdo a Fighter or Barbarian on a regular basis with the right vestiges. Truenamers are unusable with the current Truespeak DCs, lowered, they'd be semipowerful and mainly buffers.
Witch 05-06-07, 06:44 PM	Current Truespeak DCs are insignificant provided some items are bought. However, they're still useless because most of their utterances are crap :)
Taeldrin Laesrash 05-06-07, 09:15 PM	Current Truespeak DCs are insignificant provided some items are bought. However, they're still useless because most of their utterances are crap :) They're not total crap. If the DCs were lowered, they'd be more like invocations than spells, used in quick bursts for suddenly necessary effects. Combined with Speak With The Masses, they can heal or harm large numbers of targets, something normal spellcasters have some difficulty with (At the least, requiring a feat). And with medium BAB, Truenamers can be good fighters, especially with the Acolyte of the Ego PrC.
Luis_Dragunov 05-07-07, 04:23 AM	Epic Binders? What do you bind? Avatars? :D On a more serious note, however, it's only a matter of making epic vestiges with epic DCs who do epic stuff. Get to work, young man! As for ToB, I could dare to say that the classes therein probably break the rule of "No more spells/spell-look-alike features after lvl20" because, seriously, it's the only thing going on for them... unless someone comes up with Epic Maneuvers like there is Epic Spellcasting... actually, that does sound cool!
bluemage55 05-07-07, 07:56 AM	As for ToB, I could dare to say that the classes therein probably break the rule of "No more spells/spell-look-alike features after lvl20" because, seriously, it's the only thing going on for them... unless someone comes up with Epic Maneuvers like there is Epic Spellcasting... actually, that does sound cool! There's certainly no need for that. Epic ToB characters increase their Initiator Level, and pick up epic bonus feats at a quick rate. These feats can in turn be spent on special epic feats designed to improve their ability to use maneuvers/stances/counters.
Johnny_Angel 05-07-07, 10:12 AM	I was mainly looking for material dealing with books other than Tome of Battle. I have and like that book as well, but it seems to be the one given the most attention. Tome of Magic is the main book I was looking into how to expand; but I was also looking at classes such as the warlock, the marshal, and... well, basically, the classes outside of core material that are different enough from the more common classes to need unique progressions. Like I said in my previous post(s), I figured that classes such as the the mindbender, warmage, and etc that are similar to current classes (i.e. sorceror and wizard) would follow the epic progression that the classes they are similar to would follow (i.e. sorceror and wizard.) I suppose my question extends to prestigue classes as well though. Say -for example- that I am a sorceror; I start taking a prestigue class - for the sake of example, we'll say that I'm taking levels in the master transmogrophist prc. I'm a 15th lvl sorceror when I begin taking the prc, so for 5 levels I follow my normal progression. What happens when I cross the epic threshold though? Since I'm taking the prc, do I just not get any of the bonus feats that a sorceror would? It appears that way because the prc (and most prcs) state that while I continue to increase my caster level and gain spells that I do not gain any other benefit that would come with gaining a level. I suppose in the case of a prc that might balance out because I am gaining powers which are unusual compared to someone who hadn't taken a prc. Ok, I rambled there for a bit, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not sure at what levels some of the non-core classes would gain feats and other things of that nature once gaining epic status. The ToM classes seem to be the most difficult to compare to the normally used classes. I appreciate the feedback on the binder; I had thought about the fact that the binder could (and probably would) become a lot more powerful if magic items (and magic in general) was more limited. The flavor of it seems like it would be well suited to a darker themed campaign though.
Witch 05-07-07, 10:17 AM	For Warlocks, there's an epic progression listed. There's also epic feats on the WotC site. For prestige classes: http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1942
Pitiless_Interfector 05-07-07, 05:51 PM	Also, on a related note: I have considered replacing the standard spellcasters with the Tome of Magic Classes for a lower-magic/darker setting, but I'm not entirely sure how balanced those classes are in relation to the more melee-oriented classes when placed in a campaign with a lower level of magic and magical items. Another good class to add is warlock; they're extremely simple (they can use their invocation spell-like abilities at will and only learn a dozen of them over 20 levels), low-magic (teleporting from one end of a football field to the other pre-epic would require a magic item, and the best damage they can consistently do is about 15d6 in a 20-ft-radius spread, with virtually no shapechanging, no dominate monster [they have a charm effect, though, but limited to one target at a time], no divination, no useful area abjuration, etc.), and very dark (they can animate skeletons and zombies, conjure darkness filled with bats, call forth plagues of locusts, turn people into newts [though they can make a Fort save to 'get better'], fly, breathe water, set things on fire with a ray attack, bestow curses, and turn invisible [they can see invisible things, too, and get darkvision]. Note that they can only do two or three of these things very well). And you might want to check out the link in my sig; if you have Complete Arcane, you might want to play-test some of the stuff in the link (see sig); I haven't had time to playtest it, but you might. And if you don't have Complete Arcane, you might want to think twice about messing around with the magic system; the last few chapters on in-world and meta-DMing magic are truly illuminating. Note: This article may contain self-promotion or advertising for an item or items in the signature below. Complaining to the Wiz_O may result in my whining via sock-puppet for a week or more. You have been, in a roundabout manner, alerted indirectly to the paralegal consequences of complaining. Do not attempt to adjust your medication. Simply click the mouse to make my evil words go away. :gel:
rob_douglas 05-09-07, 03:15 AM	Johnny_Angel Yes - you are correct, if you take 15 levels of Sor, then 5 PrC, and then continue the PrC, you gain no bonus epic feats. Bonus epic feats are awarded on a class by class basis for class levels gained above 20 for base and 10 for Prestige classes, or all levels of Epic PrCs. The ideal use of a PrC is to complete it right at 20th level, then continue taking it into Epic to gain bonus feats. However, you still gain Epic Feats based on character level at Epic, so it is not a total loss. There are also the 5 level PrCs that offer some nice benefits post-epic (archmage and hierophant) that will also slow down your epic bonus feat progression, but are often worth it. Also, if you did your Sor15/PrC5 build and decided not to finish out the PrC and wanted to go back to Sor, you would need to go to Sor23/PrC5 (at 28th level) to gain your Sorc23 bonus epic feat. Just FYI. ROB