Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tequila_Sunrise 04-30-07, 02:54 AM	I've been going over everything epic with a fine-toothed comb in preparation for a campaign that I'll be running. A couple things strike me as strange: 1. Inspire Courage does not increase in potency. Epic inspiration doubles all bonuses, but I can't think of a reason why the base bonus shouldn't continue to rise as normal. 2. Smite evil increases in potency but paladins gain no extra smite attacks. Don't know why. I could understand that continuing these progressions might cause balance issues, but no more so than other progressions that are continued like favored enemy, rage and sneak attack. Any ideas?
bluemage55 04-30-07, 03:39 AM	Rage doesn't actually progress. The barbarian gets more uses per day, but it doesn't increase in efficacy. Likewise, the bard gets more uses of bardic music per day, but they do not increase in strength without feats. The paladin does get more smites per day (one additional time every 5 levels after 20th). Sneak attack and favored enemy bonuses do increase, but I think it's because there is no other way to improve them (they aren't limited by uses/day).
NoldorForce 04-30-07, 11:10 AM	Inspire courage does in fact increase in potency at the same slow non-epic rate, +1 per six levels above 20th level.
Tequila_Sunrise 04-30-07, 02:46 PM	Sneak attack and favored enemy bonuses do increase, but I think it's because there is no other way to improve them (they aren't limited by uses/day). So your thinking is that the designers got together and said "well, each class' special abilities has got to improve somehow..." but didn't think much about the ryhm or reason to which class got what? That's what appears to be the case from my point of view. Where are you two seeing that Inspire Courage rises in potency and Smite rises in uses/day? Errata?
NoldorForce 04-30-07, 03:55 PM	Where are you two seeing that Inspire Courage rises in potency and Smite rises in uses/day? Errata?Epic Bard: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm#epicBard)Inspire Courage (Su) The epic bard’s bonus when this ability is used increases by +1 every six levels higher than 20th.Epic Paladin: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm#epicPaladin)Smite Evil (Su) The epic paladin adds his or her class level to damage with any smite evil attack, as normal. He or she can smite one additional time per day for every five levels higher than 20th.I agree, however, that it's odd that Rage does not increase in efficacy. You'll only have so many encounters per day, especially in epic. And considering that Rage can only be used once per encounter, you'll tend to get more uses of the ability than you'll ever need.
Osirenth_Archlocke 04-30-07, 07:51 PM	I've never felt comfortable with the favored enemy progression extending to Epic levels. At some point, you end up with the Ranger who has most of creation as favored enemies, which starts sounding like "Ranger Psycho - He hates Everybody!". I always figured putting a creature on the favored ememy list just because you expect to fight lots of them in the future was metagame thinking. In game thinking would be putting one one the favored enemy list because you had just fought a war against them, or the classic they massacreed your whole village. But even if you avoid metagaming, once you've used such bits a few times for the role playing value, what does the character do? I can just see an Epic Ranger adding Aquatic Humanoids (Sahuagen) at 25th level and saying "One o' em looked dirty at ma second cousin Elmanster, thats why!".
bluemage55 04-30-07, 09:06 PM	So your thinking is that the designers got together and said "well, each class' special abilities has got to improve somehow..." but didn't think much about the ryhm or reason to which class got what? That's what appears to be the case from my point of view. I believe the designers were actually thinking that every scalable feature should be improved by epic feats, rather than automatic improvement (which allows for more epic bonus feats). However, they didn't want characters to be spending multiple feats to improve different aspects of a given feature, so they made all but one of each feature automatically scaling. For example, spellcasting progression is composed of two parts: caster level and spell level. The designers decided that spell level should be improved by epic feats (ISC), which is why they left caster level as free scaling. Barbarian rage progression is likewise composed of two parts: uses/day and efficacy. The designers decided to have uses/day scale for free, and left efficacy for bonus feats.
oracle71 04-30-07, 09:29 PM	I've never felt comfortable with the favored enemy progression extending to Epic levels. At some point, you end up with the Ranger who has most of creation as favored enemies, which starts sounding like "Ranger Psycho - He hates Everybody!". I always figured putting a creature on the favored ememy list just because you expect to fight lots of them in the future was metagame thinking. In game thinking would be putting one one the favored enemy list because you had just fought a war against them, or the classic they massacreed your whole village. But even if you avoid metagaming, once you've used such bits a few times for the role playing value, what does the character do? I can just see an Epic Ranger adding Aquatic Humanoids (Sahuagen) at 25th level and saying "One o' em looked dirty at ma second cousin Elmanster, thats why!". Maybe the ranger doesn't hate all of his favored enemies, maybe he just happened picked up some insights about how to kill them more easily. So, for example, he doesn't hate dragons, but in his years of hunting and occasionally fighting them, he's learned how to find those soft spots inbetween the scales on the belly, or time his strike so he can plunge his sword into the dragon's neck just behind the jawline, where the jugular is.
rob_douglas 05-01-07, 11:04 AM	Exactly right, Favored Enemy does not mean Hated Enemy. Just one you prefer fighting because you know how. You also get bonuses to track, bluff, and sense motive on them - you really understand them. Rangers should be able to understand a greater variety of opponents. They still have to decide which one to add the +2 bonus to as a preferred favored enemy. As for Inspire and Smite, the increases come from the 3.5 SRD. A paladin in 3.0 only had 1 smite per day, so of course they did not continue smites in the ELH. But 3.5 made them 1/5 levels, although the update booklet did not follow that. Other than the SRD, I see no reference to those increases in printed material. The Errata for the ELH is still 3.0 only, and predates the Update booklet. ROB
Tequila_Sunrise 05-01-07, 12:36 PM	I believe the designers were actually thinking that every scalable feature should be improved by epic feats, rather than automatic improvement (which allows for more epic bonus feats). However, they didn't want characters to be spending multiple feats to improve different aspects of a given feature, so they made all but one of each feature automatically scaling. For example, spellcasting progression is composed of two parts: caster level and spell level. The designers decided that spell level should be improved by epic feats (ISC), which is why they left caster level as free scaling. Barbarian rage progression is likewise composed of two parts: uses/day and efficacy. The designers decided to have uses/day scale for free, and left efficacy for bonus feats. Thanks for your insight. I don't like how some of these progressions work, but hey, that's where my creativity comes in.
sparkster4242 05-18-07, 01:45 AM	one very important thing to watch out for - the ELH is a 3.0 book, it needs a few revisions to work well in a 3.5 campaign. there were lots of little changes made to class ability progressions for 3.5...
bluemage55 05-18-07, 05:03 AM	one very important thing to watch out for - the ELH is a 3.0 book, it needs a few revisions to work well in a 3.5 campaign. there were lots of little changes made to class ability progressions for 3.5... Which is why there is a revision thread (see my signature). :D