Epic Sneak Attack Pest [Archive] - Wizards Community

Epic Sneak Attack Pest [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Senevri
01-27-08, 07:31 PM Okay, the thing below is something I'm planning on dropping on my APL 23 party, when a proper occasion comes. It's still rough around the edges, though, so I could use some suggestions on fine-tuning.

The current gear is worth 491K, which means I'm over-wealth, and I'll need to increase the CR.

Basically, this is going to start as a tough encounter, with this guy having been hired to take out one of the PCs. Who? I don't know yet. Why? Well, plenty of reasons.

For X I'm thinking something castery, maybe cleric for Grave Strike and the option to fill the darts with cure/inflict spells.

Hm. Now that I think of it, I'm probably not over-wealth if I drop the spell-storing from darts.
In any case, suggestions?

Mr. One-trick CR 24
maleish Halfling Rogue1/Fighter 4/Rogue +10/Dread Commando 5/Rogue +3/X 1
LE Small Humanoid(halfling)
Init 21; Senses type ## ft., type ## ft.;
Listen +26, Spot +26
Languages Common
AC 24, touch 17, flat-footed 18
(6 Dex, 1 size, 0 natural)
hp 88 (23 HD); hp-affecting ability; DR ##/type
Immune immunities
Resist resistances vs. attacks, elements;SR ##
Fort 8, Ref 23, Will 5; Evasion
Weakness vulnerable to
Speed 20 ft. (4 squares), hasted(potion) 50 ft. flying(potion) 60ft
Melee default attack (#d#+#/##-##/x#)
Ranged +35/+30/+25/+20 +1 spellstoring returning dart(30ft) (1d3+3/19-20/x2)+7d6 Sneak Attack + 3d6 Sudden Strike.
Space 5ft., Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk 17, Grapple 13
Atk Options Far Shot: range increased 50%
Point Blank Shot: within 30ft, +1 hit, damage
Greater Magic Weapon oils: +4 to hit and damage if time to prepare
Haste: +1 hit and one extra hit at best attack.
Heroism: +2 sneak, detect and attack.
Rapid Shot: one extra hit at best, but -2 to all.
Greater Two-weapon fighting: 3 iterative hits extra, but -2 to all hits
Crippling Strike: On a successful sneak attack, cause 2 points of STR damage.

Best-case full attack within 30ft with Point Blank, Rapid Shot, TWF, GMW, Haste and Heroism:
+38/+38/+38/+33/+28/+23, +38/+33/+28 dart, (1d3+8) (19-20/x2) +2 STR and 7d6 Sneak Attack and 3d6 Sudden Strike
Special Actions +54 hide and move silently
Combat Gear Potion of Heroism, Potion of Fly, Potion of Haste, 9xOil of Greater Magic Weapon +5
Special Qualities quality1, quality 2...
Abilities Str 10, Dex 36, Con 8, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 8[/o]
Feats Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Rapid Shot, Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Far Shot, Improved Initiative, Superior Initiative
Skills Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Use Magic Device +5 more max ranks.
Possessions( total wealth 430K ) Combat Gear plus 9x+1 spellstoring returning darts, +1 mithral chain shirt of silent, slick moves, Tome DEX +5 (read), Ioun Stone, pale green prism, Gloves of Dexterity +6,
Advancement by class level; Favored Class Rogue
Avatar of Kokusho
01-27-08, 07:44 PM Master Thrower, sir. It's really decent for some of its abilities, but five levels in it help a lot more than one.
Senevri
01-27-08, 07:49 PM Master Thrower, sir. It's really decent for some of its abilities, but five levels in it help a lot more than one.
Unfortunately, since this isn't just an intellectual exercise, I'm limited by books available. Otherwise, I'd agree.

*edit* That's a bunch of characters in your .sig, by the way.
Angus Cotton
01-27-08, 07:58 PM I would say first, get him some spell protection like a Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance, or a Clock of Epic Resistance, or better yet, there are two Epic Feats that allow you to use your Reflex save for your Fort and Wisdom save. Also, needs more hit points.

I guess I am not seeing the "One Trick" that makes him so lethal? Perhaps you can explain it a bit more so as I can understand where you are coming from.
Senevri
01-27-08, 08:09 PM I would say first, get him some spell protection like a Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance, or a Clock of Epic Resistance, or better yet, there are two Epic Feats that allow you to use your Reflex save for your Fort and Wisdom save. Also, needs more hit points.
Or rather, a run-away tactic.

I'm missing one feat or rogue special ability, BTW. that's wiggle room, as is that one missing level.

Of course you realize none of the items you suggest are feasible at the target CR, or NPC wealth below CR 30ish in general.

I guess I am not seeing the "One Trick" that makes him so lethal? Perhaps you can explain it a bit more so as I can understand where you are coming from.
Not that deadly, but... excellent sneakiness guarantees a surprise round, a decent attack bonus means most attacks will hit, and the small bit of SA this one has will bring forth an average damage of 360 points, plus 18 points of STR.

This one should win the Init, thus as per rules, everyone is flat-footed and sneak-attack fodder until their turn comes up.

It's rather non-trivial at the level they're at - even the Lich will get hurt, with a proper application of grave strike, albeit with a significantly reduced amount of damage, seeing as how this one cannot pierce it's DR of 15/bludgeoning and magic. The current lowest level character - Fighter 22, who gained a feat at every single level - is at the highest risk, seeing as his AC is only 31. However, he's also the least likely target.
PrinceOfTheVoid
01-27-08, 08:41 PM In my opinion, he'll die in one round. And ressurection comes cheap at epic. Compare him to a gloom for inspiration. Let's see

Gloom / NPC
Hp: 337 / 88
Initiative: +26 / +21
Ac: 40 / 24
Attack: +54 / +35
Max Damage: 388/ 360 + 18 strength (so you say)
Saves: +17/+32/+21 / +8/+23/+5
Skills: H/MS +46/+66 / +54
Sr: 35 / None
Dr: 10/epic / None

Albeit, the Gloom is 25, not 24, but this guy you have hear is more like 17, if even. He gets utterly owned by pretty much everything.

Advice: Use a Gloom, or don't follow the rules. Keep in mind, a level 24 =/= a Cr 24 at all. More like 20, if properly optimized, which I'm not seeing here
Senevri
01-27-08, 09:06 PM In my opinion, he'll die in one round.
Max Damage: 388/ 360 + 18 strength (so you say)
Crippling Strike? Rogues, y'know?

Albeit, the Gloom is 25, not 24, but this guy you have hear is more like 17, if even. He gets utterly owned by pretty much everything.
Well, actually it's more like CR 23, until I figure out the X. A Cleric could load up the darts with either inflicts or cures, and add +1 from bless and +1 from divine favor, I guess. that's 18 points more damage, and 9d8+9 positive/negative.

Advice: Use a Gloom, or don't follow the rules. Keep in mind, a level 24 =/= a Cr 24 at all. More like 20, if properly optimized, which I'm not seeing here
Well, what can ya do with 25PB, class levels and NPC wealth...

Oh, BTW, the gloom does 4d4+72d6+84 vs. 9d3+80d6+72 and 18 STR damage.
What i listed was the average. Still, the whole HP/AC thing is kind of annoying. Still, the gloom does all of... hardly anything against these PCs. None of them are human. ( halfling lich/aasimar druid/dwarf fighter/gnome sorcerer, for the reference. )

I could add some ToB to it to make it better, but I'm trying to avoid that.
With a bit more wealth, I could add an amulet of health, which would net 69 HP. Still, unless this has a superior strategic location, it'll die after the PCs init comes around.
I guess sniping might work, but then I might as well make something like an Assassin/Horizon Walker/ and use sneak attack'd arrows from 1000ft. away.

*edit*
Templates, perhaps... Hm. But, but... can I get burrow? Full attack, afterwards 5ft step into the ground? either that or swift incorporeality.

If I'd retool it as an arcane trickster, I might get enough casty to get access to some interesting tricks, but casters are a lot of work. T_T

A Githzerai would be CR +1, SR 28, AC +6, +1 to hit, not a bad pick.
Drow would lose 1 on attack, but gain SR 33.

Still, unless one can get SR to the 35+ range, it's not that big a threat. The moment the Druid's turn comes, one can expect 90 points of damage no save, no SR and a DC 31 reflex save vs. getting buried.
Angus Cotton
01-27-08, 10:17 PM Ah yes, I get it now. I was wondering why a rogue would come in on the first round and open up with so much damage that the party has no choice but to focus all their energy on his 88 hit points on their initiative. It was guaranteed doom for sure, so I was wondering. But now I get it, that is the point. He is some kind of crazy suicide rogue like the goblin sappers in Warcraft. This would almost guaranteed take out one party member the first round.

Still, the logic of it is kind of flawed from a roleplaying standpoint. How does one get to level 20 with only on tactic (suicide bombing)? Maybe you could make him some kind of undead or regenerating creature to get past this. /shrugs. Or maybe the logic of it doesn't matter. /shrugs.
Avatar of Kokusho
01-28-08, 07:15 AM He might just need a little Epic Dodge in there, maybe give him three more levels so that he can qualify for it. Other than that, he is probably screwed if any of the group catches so much as a hint of him. Blindsense/blindsight is readily available from spells, so unless he has a way to get around that, Hide checks mean exactly nothing. There's a feat called Darkstallker that helps with this. (Drow of the Underdark). Cunning Evasion from the PH 2 is also rather useful.

Rogues are good but quite fragile unless they can ensure they will not be found. That lich, Grave Strike or not, will have him for lunch.

As to the characters in my sig, that's our HIGH epic group. Most messed up bunch of people you would ever see, I tell you. :p
PrinceOfTheVoid
01-28-08, 08:00 AM Also, watch out for Foresight+Celerity+Time Stop, usually cripples any suprprise attack fairly well.
Senevri
01-28-08, 12:53 PM Out of those three, only Foresight exists in my game.

But, yeah. A great big surprise in the first round and then... splat?

This guy needs a party. if we add a sneaky tank and a sneaky caster to the mix, the one-trick thrower can do his damage, then the caster can use benign transposition to swap him with the tank.
...

But, what's better than doing 80d6 damage in one round? Doing 60d6 damage in one round, and the same again in the next. I'll need to redesign around that balancing act.

I mean, sure I could go for a ... oh,

halfling Rogue 4/Wizard 6/Dread Commando 5/Arcane Trickster 7/Swordsage 2 CR 24

BAB 14

Feats: Improved Init, TWF,far shot, point blank shot,
rapid shot, Superior Initiative, Empower, SubstituteACID AdmixtureACID,

dex: 19 + 5 + 5 tome
DEX 35 = +12

Init: 12+8=20 + nerveskitter

---
Atk: 4Mongoose+1Haste+1rapid+1twf+10/5/0
Bonus: 14 + 1 size +12 dex + 5 weapon +1 point blank shot -2 rapid shot -2 twf
Atk: 29/29/29/29/29/29/29/29/24/19

Damage: 1d3+6, + 7d6 SA + 36d6Acid/Fire.
Total Damage: 11d3+66+77d6+396d6
Total Damage: 22+66+1655,5

Except that you'd need to use daggers, as you can't put "spell storing" on a ranged weapon. Meh.

Something like that. But now, is that fun?
LunarWolfPrime
02-06-08, 10:35 AM Unfortunately, since this isn't just an intellectual exercise, I'm limited by books available. Otherwise, I'd agree.

*edit* That's a bunch of characters in your .sig, by the way.

does that mean invisable blade is out to?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Senevri 01-27-08, 07:31 PM	Okay, the thing below is something I'm planning on dropping on my APL 23 party, when a proper occasion comes. It's still rough around the edges, though, so I could use some suggestions on fine-tuning. The current gear is worth 491K, which means I'm over-wealth, and I'll need to increase the CR. Basically, this is going to start as a tough encounter, with this guy having been hired to take out one of the PCs. Who? I don't know yet. Why? Well, plenty of reasons. For X I'm thinking something castery, maybe cleric for Grave Strike and the option to fill the darts with cure/inflict spells. Hm. Now that I think of it, I'm probably not over-wealth if I drop the spell-storing from darts. In any case, suggestions? Mr. One-trick CR 24 maleish Halfling Rogue1/Fighter 4/Rogue +10/Dread Commando 5/Rogue +3/X 1 LE Small Humanoid(halfling) Init 21; Senses type ## ft., type ## ft.; Listen +26, Spot +26 Languages Common AC 24, touch 17, flat-footed 18 (6 Dex, 1 size, 0 natural) hp 88 (23 HD); hp-affecting ability; DR ##/type Immune immunities Resist resistances vs. attacks, elements;SR ## Fort 8, Ref 23, Will 5; Evasion Weakness vulnerable to Speed 20 ft. (4 squares), hasted(potion) 50 ft. flying(potion) 60ft Melee default attack (#d#+#/##-##/x#) Ranged +35/+30/+25/+20 +1 spellstoring returning dart(30ft) (1d3+3/19-20/x2)+7d6 Sneak Attack + 3d6 Sudden Strike. Space 5ft., Reach 5 ft. Base Atk 17, Grapple 13 Atk Options Far Shot: range increased 50% Point Blank Shot: within 30ft, +1 hit, damage Greater Magic Weapon oils: +4 to hit and damage if time to prepare Haste: +1 hit and one extra hit at best attack. Heroism: +2 sneak, detect and attack. Rapid Shot: one extra hit at best, but -2 to all. Greater Two-weapon fighting: 3 iterative hits extra, but -2 to all hits Crippling Strike: On a successful sneak attack, cause 2 points of STR damage. Best-case full attack within 30ft with Point Blank, Rapid Shot, TWF, GMW, Haste and Heroism: +38/+38/+38/+33/+28/+23, +38/+33/+28 dart, (1d3+8) (19-20/x2) +2 STR and 7d6 Sneak Attack and 3d6 Sudden Strike Special Actions +54 hide and move silently Combat Gear Potion of Heroism, Potion of Fly, Potion of Haste, 9xOil of Greater Magic Weapon +5 Special Qualities quality1, quality 2... Abilities Str 10, Dex 36, Con 8, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 8[/o] Feats Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Rapid Shot, Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Far Shot, Improved Initiative, Superior Initiative Skills Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Use Magic Device +5 more max ranks. Possessions( total wealth 430K ) Combat Gear plus 9x+1 spellstoring returning darts, +1 mithral chain shirt of silent, slick moves, Tome DEX +5 (read), Ioun Stone, pale green prism, Gloves of Dexterity +6, Advancement by class level; Favored Class Rogue
Avatar of Kokusho 01-27-08, 07:44 PM	Master Thrower, sir. It's really decent for some of its abilities, but five levels in it help a lot more than one.
Senevri 01-27-08, 07:49 PM	Master Thrower, sir. It's really decent for some of its abilities, but five levels in it help a lot more than one. Unfortunately, since this isn't just an intellectual exercise, I'm limited by books available. Otherwise, I'd agree. edit That's a bunch of characters in your .sig, by the way.
Angus Cotton 01-27-08, 07:58 PM	I would say first, get him some spell protection like a Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance, or a Clock of Epic Resistance, or better yet, there are two Epic Feats that allow you to use your Reflex save for your Fort and Wisdom save. Also, needs more hit points. I guess I am not seeing the "One Trick" that makes him so lethal? Perhaps you can explain it a bit more so as I can understand where you are coming from.
Senevri 01-27-08, 08:09 PM	I would say first, get him some spell protection like a Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance, or a Clock of Epic Resistance, or better yet, there are two Epic Feats that allow you to use your Reflex save for your Fort and Wisdom save. Also, needs more hit points. Or rather, a run-away tactic. I'm missing one feat or rogue special ability, BTW. that's wiggle room, as is that one missing level. Of course you realize none of the items you suggest are feasible at the target CR, or NPC wealth below CR 30ish in general. I guess I am not seeing the "One Trick" that makes him so lethal? Perhaps you can explain it a bit more so as I can understand where you are coming from. Not that deadly, but... excellent sneakiness guarantees a surprise round, a decent attack bonus means most attacks will hit, and the small bit of SA this one has will bring forth an average damage of 360 points, plus 18 points of STR. This one should win the Init, thus as per rules, everyone is flat-footed and sneak-attack fodder until their turn comes up. It's rather non-trivial at the level they're at - even the Lich will get hurt, with a proper application of grave strike, albeit with a significantly reduced amount of damage, seeing as how this one cannot pierce it's DR of 15/bludgeoning and magic. The current lowest level character - Fighter 22, who gained a feat at every single level - is at the highest risk, seeing as his AC is only 31. However, he's also the least likely target.
PrinceOfTheVoid 01-27-08, 08:41 PM	In my opinion, he'll die in one round. And ressurection comes cheap at epic. Compare him to a gloom for inspiration. Let's see Gloom / NPC Hp: 337 / 88 Initiative: +26 / +21 Ac: 40 / 24 Attack: +54 / +35 Max Damage: 388/ 360 + 18 strength (so you say) Saves: +17/+32/+21 / +8/+23/+5 Skills: H/MS +46/+66 / +54 Sr: 35 / None Dr: 10/epic / None Albeit, the Gloom is 25, not 24, but this guy you have hear is more like 17, if even. He gets utterly owned by pretty much everything. Advice: Use a Gloom, or don't follow the rules. Keep in mind, a level 24 =/= a Cr 24 at all. More like 20, if properly optimized, which I'm not seeing here
Senevri 01-27-08, 09:06 PM	In my opinion, he'll die in one round. Max Damage: 388/ 360 + 18 strength (so you say) Crippling Strike? Rogues, y'know? Albeit, the Gloom is 25, not 24, but this guy you have hear is more like 17, if even. He gets utterly owned by pretty much everything. Well, actually it's more like CR 23, until I figure out the X. A Cleric could load up the darts with either inflicts or cures, and add +1 from bless and +1 from divine favor, I guess. that's 18 points more damage, and 9d8+9 positive/negative. Advice: Use a Gloom, or don't follow the rules. Keep in mind, a level 24 =/= a Cr 24 at all. More like 20, if properly optimized, which I'm not seeing here Well, what can ya do with 25PB, class levels and NPC wealth... Oh, BTW, the gloom does 4d4+72d6+84 vs. 9d3+80d6+72 and 18 STR damage. What i listed was the average. Still, the whole HP/AC thing is kind of annoying. Still, the gloom does all of... hardly anything against these PCs. None of them are human. ( halfling lich/aasimar druid/dwarf fighter/gnome sorcerer, for the reference. ) I could add some ToB to it to make it better, but I'm trying to avoid that. With a bit more wealth, I could add an amulet of health, which would net 69 HP. Still, unless this has a superior strategic location, it'll die after the PCs init comes around. I guess sniping might work, but then I might as well make something like an Assassin/Horizon Walker/ and use sneak attack'd arrows from 1000ft. away. edit Templates, perhaps... Hm. But, but... can I get burrow? Full attack, afterwards 5ft step into the ground? either that or swift incorporeality. If I'd retool it as an arcane trickster, I might get enough casty to get access to some interesting tricks, but casters are a lot of work. T_T A Githzerai would be CR +1, SR 28, AC +6, +1 to hit, not a bad pick. Drow would lose 1 on attack, but gain SR 33. Still, unless one can get SR to the 35+ range, it's not that big a threat. The moment the Druid's turn comes, one can expect 90 points of damage no save, no SR and a DC 31 reflex save vs. getting buried.
Angus Cotton 01-27-08, 10:17 PM	Ah yes, I get it now. I was wondering why a rogue would come in on the first round and open up with so much damage that the party has no choice but to focus all their energy on his 88 hit points on their initiative. It was guaranteed doom for sure, so I was wondering. But now I get it, that is the point. He is some kind of crazy suicide rogue like the goblin sappers in Warcraft. This would almost guaranteed take out one party member the first round. Still, the logic of it is kind of flawed from a roleplaying standpoint. How does one get to level 20 with only on tactic (suicide bombing)? Maybe you could make him some kind of undead or regenerating creature to get past this. /shrugs. Or maybe the logic of it doesn't matter. /shrugs.
Avatar of Kokusho 01-28-08, 07:15 AM	He might just need a little Epic Dodge in there, maybe give him three more levels so that he can qualify for it. Other than that, he is probably screwed if any of the group catches so much as a hint of him. Blindsense/blindsight is readily available from spells, so unless he has a way to get around that, Hide checks mean exactly nothing. There's a feat called Darkstallker that helps with this. (Drow of the Underdark). Cunning Evasion from the PH 2 is also rather useful. Rogues are good but quite fragile unless they can ensure they will not be found. That lich, Grave Strike or not, will have him for lunch. As to the characters in my sig, that's our HIGH epic group. Most messed up bunch of people you would ever see, I tell you. :p
PrinceOfTheVoid 01-28-08, 08:00 AM	Also, watch out for Foresight+Celerity+Time Stop, usually cripples any suprprise attack fairly well.
Senevri 01-28-08, 12:53 PM	Out of those three, only Foresight exists in my game. But, yeah. A great big surprise in the first round and then... splat? This guy needs a party. if we add a sneaky tank and a sneaky caster to the mix, the one-trick thrower can do his damage, then the caster can use benign transposition to swap him with the tank. ... But, what's better than doing 80d6 damage in one round? Doing 60d6 damage in one round, and the same again in the next. I'll need to redesign around that balancing act. I mean, sure I could go for a ... oh, halfling Rogue 4/Wizard 6/Dread Commando 5/Arcane Trickster 7/Swordsage 2 CR 24 BAB 14 Feats: Improved Init, TWF,far shot, point blank shot, rapid shot, Superior Initiative, Empower, SubstituteACID AdmixtureACID, dex: 19 + 5 + 5 tome DEX 35 = +12 Init: 12+8=20 + nerveskitter --- Atk: 4Mongoose+1Haste+1rapid+1twf+10/5/0 Bonus: 14 + 1 size +12 dex + 5 weapon +1 point blank shot -2 rapid shot -2 twf Atk: 29/29/29/29/29/29/29/29/24/19 Damage: 1d3+6, + 7d6 SA + 36d6Acid/Fire. Total Damage: 11d3+66+77d6+396d6 Total Damage: 22+66+1655,5 Except that you'd need to use daggers, as you can't put "spell storing" on a ranged weapon. Meh. Something like that. But now, is that fun?
LunarWolfPrime 02-06-08, 10:35 AM	Unfortunately, since this isn't just an intellectual exercise, I'm limited by books available. Otherwise, I'd agree. edit That's a bunch of characters in your .sig, by the way. does that mean invisable blade is out to?