Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Steve Russell 05-18-07, 12:21 PM	Allannon's Minor Bladeturn AbjurationSpellcraft DC: 7 Components: V, S Casting Time: 11 minutes Range: Personal Duration: 24 hours or until expended To Develop: 63,000 gp; 2 days; 2,520 XP. Seed: reflect (DC 14). Factor: +100% duration (+2 DC). Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC), change to personal (-2 DC). The caster is protected from melee attacks. When struck by melee attacks, five such attacks are automatically reflected back on the original attacker. The reflected attack rebounds on the attacker using the same attack roll. Once the allotted attacks are reflected, the spell is expended.
bluemage55 05-18-07, 05:05 PM	The reflection of melee and ranged attacks by the reflect seed is actually a critical flaw, because it would be possible to craft epic spells that permanently reflect all attacks of any sort, or reflect an arbitrarily large number of attacks. My revision thread suggests removal of the reflection of non-magical attacks entirely, in the spirit of the spell it is based upon, spell turning. Also, creating epic spells with very low DCs is too powerful, as it often provides benefit at minimal cost. Any epic spell should have a minimum DC equal to the highest DC of its seeds + 1/2 the total DC of the remaining seeds.
Xamo'das 05-21-07, 11:18 AM	The reflection of melee and ranged attacks by the reflect seed is actually a critical flaw, because it would be possible to craft epic spells that permanently reflect all attacks of any sort, or reflect an arbitrarily large number of attacks.emphasis mine Actually, no such thing is possible (not allowing for corny adhoc factors).
spike81101 05-21-07, 11:27 AM	Allannon's Minor Bladeturn AbjurationSpellcraft DC: 7 Components: V, S Casting Time: 11 minutes Range: Personal Duration: 24 hours or until expended To Develop: 63,000 gp; 2 days; 2,520 XP. Seed: reflect (DC 14). Factor: +100% duration (+2 DC). Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC), change to personal (-2 DC). The caster is protected from melee attacks. When struck by melee attacks, five such attacks are automatically reflected back on the original attacker. The reflected attack rebounds on the attacker using the same attack roll. Once the allotted attacks are reflected, the spell is expended. You cannot make it permanent, as it must be expended. I'd definitely allow it, 5 attacks is nothing. One rounds worth of attacks for a whole day is hardly broken. You can break epic spells in many different ways, using common sense is the best way to monitor them.
Karsus the Mad 05-21-07, 01:35 PM	emphasis mine Actually, no such thing is possible (not allowing for corny adhoc factors). It's very possible and without adhoc factors. Epic Spell Reflection, found in the ELH and SRD shows that the reflect seed can be used to permanently reflect all spells of 9th level or lower. Add in another reflect seed for melee attacks, another for ranged attacks, toss in a +20 factor (listed under the seed description) for area effects and voila, one cheap and cheezy munchkin immunity. The only way through that is with another epic spell.
bluemage55 05-21-07, 01:56 PM	Karsus got to it first, but he covered my point precisely. :D
spike81101 05-21-07, 02:22 PM	While that is true, there is nothing wrong with the OP's spell.
rob_douglas 05-21-07, 03:48 PM	Right, while it is possible to abuse it, I don't think removing melee weapon reflection is necessary to fix it. It is a great flavorful way of protecting a mage - to have weapon reflection up at least for a few attacks. ROB
bluemage55 05-21-07, 06:03 PM	Right, while it is possible to abuse it, I don't think removing melee weapon reflection is necessary to fix it. It is a great flavorful way of protecting a mage - to have weapon reflection up at least for a few attacks. High-level melee specialists typically depend on dealing massive amounts of damage with a single full attack. With melee weapon reflection, though, you end up forcing them to do nothing until an epic dispel goes through, or they risk killing themselves. A spell that only stops 5 attacks is not a big problem (although its existence still rewrites the way epic play is conducted, because melee combatants MUST be cautious -> waiting -> advantage to the caster). The issue comes when you start piling on more and more attacks to be reflected. Where do you draw the line? Is 10 attacks okay, and 15 attacks too much? At some point it just becomes arbitrary, and for that reason I removed that function entirely.
Xamo'das 05-21-07, 07:05 PM	It's very possible and without adhoc factors. Epic Spell Reflection, found in the ELH and SRD shows that the reflect seed can be used to permanently reflect all spells of 9th level or lower. Add in another reflect seed for melee attacks, another for ranged attacks, toss in a +20 factor (listed under the seed description) for area effects and voila, one cheap and cheezy munchkin immunity. The only way through that is with another epic spell. This is incorrect. Epic Spell Reflection can't be used as the basis of a general argument, since it contradicts the wording of the reflect seed. I don't see how having a single case of precedence make a good arguement for overruling the RAW.
Witch 05-21-07, 07:12 PM	And we all know that the Epic Spell Reflection spell is badly written, given the fact that it's a Permanent spell with 20d6 backlash. Per round for the rest of your life, I'd say that hurts. And the stupidly high mitigation that it has.
TheGreenGriffon 05-21-07, 07:32 PM	This spell is no big deal, after all it is epic and the player will have to spend loads of gold researching it and its epic after all. Epic spells are just that. They are beyond normal power for those who can create them. Ive made some insane spells myself with the epic rules. Many epic spells are possible. I haven't been able to think of one you cant make with the rules. Although these are possible making them becomes insanely unlikely when the costs and the Spell DC come into it. So unless you have a level 300 wizard who has 5, 000, 000 gold on him to blow then good luck.
Steve Russell 05-21-07, 08:15 PM	ok I have been thinking about making one small change because this spell reminds me so much of 2e stoneskin, it reflects the first 5 attacks. That way the BBEG attacks the spell hits him back and then makes a bunch of melee touch attacks. Also this only reflects the melee attack back at him, things like improved grab, and any affect that does not require damage (posion would not work), could still work what do you think?
Karsus the Mad 05-21-07, 08:33 PM	This is incorrect. Epic Spell Reflection can't be used as the basis of a general argument, since it contradicts the wording of the reflect seed. I don't see how having a single case of precedence make a good arguement for overruling the RAW. You have confuzzled me. It doesn't overrule anything nor does it contradict anything. It shows precisely what the Permanent factor does. It makes the effect...permanent. The Permanent factor doesn't specify any limit other than instantaneous and permanent durations can't be made permanent. It makes absolutely no exception for "until expended or 12 hours" durations, neither does the Reflect seed make an exception to Permanent durations in it's description, unlike the Fortify seed, which specifies exactly what the limits of being made permanent are. The spell is completely within RAW. LOTS of things contradict. Welcome to Epic RAW:tiphat: By RAW then, is it impossible for the reflect seed to reflect targeted dispel magics and the ward seed to ward against antimagic field, despite their seed description certainly giving the option? According to this rule, it appears so. DISPELLING,EPIC SPELLS,AND ANTIMAGIC FIELD A lucky nonepic spellcaster casting greater dispel magic might be able to dispel an epic spell. The game mechanics do not change, and epic spells do not occupy any privileged position allowing them to resist being dispelled other than their presumably high caster level. Likewise, epic spells using the dispel seed can dispel nonepic spells. Such epic spells use the same game mechanic: The check to dispel is 1d20 + a specified number (usually dispeller’s level), and the DC is 11 + the spellcaster’s level. Antimagic field does not automatically suppress epic spells as it does standard spells. Instead, each time an epic spell is subject to an antimagic field, make a dispel check as a 20th-level caster (1d20 + 20). The epic spell has a DC of 11 + the epic spell’s spellcaster level. If the suppression check is successful, the epic spell is suppressed like any other spell. If the dispel check is unsuccessful, the epic spell functions normally. I suppose eidolon is also impossible, since the transport seed specifies "You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures weighing up to 1,000 lb.", but says nothing of souls? I assume Epic Counterspell is impossible also since the dispel seed specifies "ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, or end ongoing spells" but makes no mention of stopping a spell before it takes effect? Or is an epic spell using the ward seed still subject to a targeted dispel (as the seed specifically states it can be) when it's used to ward specifically against a dispel (ward seed can afterall, protect against specific spells.) ? Or is peripety impossible since the reflect seed doesn't specifically state that you can choose which attacks are reflected?
bluemage55 05-21-07, 08:39 PM	This spell is no big deal, after all it is epic and the player will have to spend loads of gold researching it and its epic after all. Epic spells are just that. They are beyond normal power for those who can create them. Ive made some insane spells myself with the epic rules. Many epic spells are possible. I haven't been able to think of one you cant make with the rules. Although these are possible making them becomes insanely unlikely when the costs and the Spell DC come into it. So unless you have a level 300 wizard who has 5, 000, 000 gold on him to blow then good luck. With mitigating factors and blind use of the RAW, any 21st level caster can have a DC 0 epic spell that allows permanent reflecting of all melee attacks. That's a big deal.
bluemage55 05-21-07, 08:40 PM	ok I have been thinking about making one small change because this spell reminds me so much of 2e stoneskin, it reflects the first 5 attacks. That way the BBEG attacks the spell hits him back and then makes a bunch of melee touch attacks. Also this only reflects the melee attack back at him, things like improved grab, and any affect that does not require damage (posion would not work), could still work what do you think? I think you've run into my other reason for removing the reflection of physical attacks: the fact that it creates a wide array of rules issues.
Loren Pechtel 05-21-07, 11:54 PM	It's very possible and without adhoc factors. Epic Spell Reflection, found in the ELH and SRD shows that the reflect seed can be used to permanently reflect all spells of 9th level or lower. Add in another reflect seed for melee attacks, another for ranged attacks, toss in a +20 factor (listed under the seed description) for area effects and voila, one cheap and cheezy munchkin immunity. The only way through that is with another epic spell. By the time you can cast this you're going to be of very high level. Your opponents certainly can dispel it.
Alder_Fiter_Galaz 05-22-07, 12:12 AM	Personally, when DMing epic campaigns magic and special materials can not give inmunity to equally high level magic, ranged and/or melee attacks. Simply the AC is greater, but with the right epic tools you can bypass it.
Karsus the Mad 05-22-07, 06:13 AM	By the time you can cast this you're going to be of very high level. Your opponents certainly can dispel it. Correct. The point tho' was to show the possibility. An epic dispel against any duration is always a possibility tho', regardless of level, which is why I don't particularly mind spells like Epic Spell Reflection and the like. I do however change it to "permanent until expended" rather than simply being a permanent effect.
bluemage55 05-22-07, 10:42 AM	Correct. The point tho' was to show the possibility. An epic dispel against any duration is always a possibility tho', regardless of level, which is why I don't particularly mind spells like Epic Spell Reflection and the like. I do however change it to "permanent until expended" rather than simply being a permanent effect. The problem with "permanent until expended" is that a caster can simply cast an arbitrarily large number of them on themselves ahead of time.
spike81101 05-22-07, 01:39 PM	The problem with "permanent until expended" is that a caster can simply cast an arbitrarily large number of them on themselves ahead of time.They would "stack" not overlap, just like everything else in D&D. All your doing is pointing out ONE of the many abusable things in epic level play. I can create a 0 DC spell that can destroy the world, that does not mean that it will get approved.
rob_douglas 05-22-07, 02:15 PM	But then they overlap, not stack, and each expenditure expends one from every casting - so that wouldn't be a problem. ROB