Epic Spell P.E.A.C.H. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Epic Spell P.E.A.C.H. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
HalfMunchkin
03-17-07, 05:12 PM Please tell me if I did this right and if it is balanced.

Paragon Rebirth [Epic Spell]
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 46
Components: V, S , DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature Touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fotitude Negates
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: 504,000 gp; 11 days; 20,160 XP. Seeds: transform (DC 21), heal (DC 25). Factors: 1-action casting time (+20 DC), Applying a template with all abilities gained (ad hoc +200 DC). Mitigating factors: burn 10,000 XP (–100 DC), Backlash 20d6 (-20 DC), one additional caster contributing 1st-level spell slot (–1 DC), one additional caster contributing 2nd-level spell slot (–3 DC), one additional caster contributing 3rd-level spell slot (–5 DC), one additional caster contributing 4th-level spell slot (–7 DC), one additional caster contributing 5th-level spell slot (–9 DC), one additional caster contributing 6th-level spell slot (–11 DC), one additional caster contributing 7th-level spell slot (–13 DC), one additional caster contributing 8th-level spell slot (–15 DC), one additional caster contributing 9th-level spell slot (–17 DC), one additional caster contributing epic-level spell slot (–19 DC)

This spell immediately grants the target the Paragon Template and completely cures her of all diseases, blindness, deafness, hit point damage, and temporary ability damage; neutralizes all poisons in the subject’s system so that no additional damage or effects are suffered; offsets feeblemindedness and cures mental disorders caused by spells or injury to the brain. It dispels all magical effects penalizing the character’s abilities, including effects caused by spells, even epic spells developed with the afflict seed.
Experience Point cost: 10,000; Backlash cost: 20d6 damage
Aluroon
03-17-07, 05:54 PM Whats P.E.A.C.H Stand for?
DeathXI
03-17-07, 06:06 PM Whats P.E.A.C.H Stand for?
Please Examine and Critique Honestly.

It's an interesting view -- I'm not all that great at balance myself, but doesn't the Paragon template add like +8 to your ECL if you're over 16 HD? In any case, I think the way tou designed the ritual is unique, but wasteful -- it would have been easier to just have them all contribute say..5th level slots. That being said, I doubt many DM's would allow it in the game, considering the overpowering factors in the Paragon template -- especially if the changes were retroactive -- maybe if you sacrificed/burned some levels to make up for the ECL gain though.

Cool Idea though.
HalfMunchkin
03-17-07, 06:44 PM I know no DM would allow it in there campaign, I designed it for mine. Any DM I could convince to let me use it, I would also be able to convince them to let my character be Divine Rank 0. I just wanted to know if it was done correctly and is technically balanced.
bluemage55
03-17-07, 08:31 PM It would be balanced if you also applied a +15 LA, and 15 negative levels that cannot be removed except buy level-gain (effectively buying off the LA).
rob_douglas
03-19-07, 04:37 PM Let's see - you made the ad hoc +200 for getting all the Paragon's abilities. I have no idea if that is the right amount or too low or high. A lot of folks have tried using the Fortify seed to add all the abilities, but that also seems like overkill - since you have to add it for each ability. Transform seems more like the right "flavor". However, in order to make it last "forever" you used a loophole that I believe is not valid (others disagree). You added the Heal seed purely to make the spell Instantaneous, so it can't be dispelled - the theory being that Instantaneous is the shortest duration and take precedence. Instead - the duration should be Instantaneous and 20 hours. The Instantaneous parts should not be combined with the ongoing magical effects portion of the spell. See Damnation for an example.

You should have to pay the x5 factor to at least make it permanent. But then it is still technically dispellable, and susceptible to an AMF. To make it a truly instantaneous transformation, which should be doable - the factor of x10 has been suggested on the boards (x5 for permanent, and x2 more). This seems more than fair.

Again, I think that the +200 might even be too high. At the end of the spell, you should now be playing with a +15 Level Adjustment. It is questionable how your DM will deal with that situation where your XP don't match your ECL. Savage Species suggests it is fine to just take forever to get your next level, but I prefer something like Bluemage's suggestion. Another thought might be to add a mitigating factor where you give up some of your existing HD to get the template, so that you won't have as much to earn back. If the Template is not granted Instantaneously, then the Level Adjustment would not apply. Might make Permanent, with a high anti-dispelling factor more worth it.

ROB
GAMBLE_d13
03-20-07, 05:00 AM Why would he get the LA? If he summoned a Balor to Permanently fight alongside him, it would never cost him XP, if it is within the power of a caster to Buff himself (even if they are using a Template) then don't the rules state that that is simply within his ECL already?
bluemage55
03-20-07, 06:31 AM Why would he get the LA? If he summoned a Balor to Permanently fight alongside him, it would never cost him XP, if it is within the power of a caster to Buff himself (even if they are using a Template) then don't the rules state that that is simply within his ECL already?

You can refer to various spells that grant templates as a precedent.

If he wanted to not gain a template, but to grant himself bonuses similar to the paragon template, then he can do so, but it will be extremely costly, cumbersome, and subject to dispelling.
HerbalTea
03-20-07, 09:25 AM I know no DM would allow it in there campaign, I designed it for mine. Any DM I could convince to let me use it, I would also be able to convince them to let my character be Divine Rank 0. I just wanted to know if it was done correctly and is technically balanced.

I would certainly consider using it. Mostly very good, except for the use of the heal seed :)
rob_douglas
03-20-07, 10:43 AM Why would he get the LA? If he summoned a Balor to Permanently fight alongside him, it would never cost him XP, if it is within the power of a caster to Buff himself (even if they are using a Template) then don't the rules state that that is simply within his ECL already?

There is a big difference between Instantaneous and Permanent, namely the ability to dispel it. In your particular example, even if you used a calling to make it an Instantaneous effect, the Balor itself is subject to nullification short of defeating your character alone. Granting the Template allows a lot more effects than other Instantaneous allowances. Just for instance, there is no other way to gain +15 to all your stats (racial bonus from the Template). If you try to grant them Instantaneously with an epic spell, they become inherent bonuses and are limited to +5. So there has to be some penalty for granting a +15 bonus to all abilities.

Now there is no way to argue this all by the RAW, since the everything in such a spell is ad hoc and subject to DM interpretation. I am just offering my opinion on what I think would be fair. It is worth whatever value you give it. The reason I think that a Level Adjustment is fair is that it is like the rules presented in Chapter 11 of Savage Species, regarding transforming permanently (instantaneously) into a monster. And, my take on Level Adjustment is that you have to earn more XP to go up a level simply because things are easier for you, and therefore you don't benefit as much from the experience.

ROB
Starmage21
03-20-07, 12:46 PM There is a big difference between Instantaneous and Permanent, namely the ability to dispel it. In your particular example, even if you used a calling to make it an Instantaneous effect, the Balor itself is subject to nullification short of defeating your character alone. Granting the Template allows a lot more effects than other Instantaneous allowances. Just for instance, there is no other way to gain +15 to all your stats (racial bonus from the Template). If you try to grant them Instantaneously with an epic spell, they become inherent bonuses and are limited to +5. So there has to be some penalty for granting a +15 bonus to all abilities.

Now there is no way to argue this all by the RAW, since the everything in such a spell is ad hoc and subject to DM interpretation. I am just offering my opinion on what I think would be fair. It is worth whatever value you give it. The reason I think that a Level Adjustment is fair is that it is like the rules presented in Chapter 11 of Savage Species, regarding transforming permanently (instantaneously) into a monster. And, my take on Level Adjustment is that you have to earn more XP to go up a level simply because things are easier for you, and therefore you don't benefit as much from the experience.

ROB

You might also consider some of the templates that can be applied at a gold and and XP cost. Spellstitched for example, or the spell in LEoF that grants the half-fiend template.
GAMBLE_d13
03-21-07, 09:55 AM I understand it seems powerful (and it is! I would never allow it as a DM), however, can't one argue from a perspective compared to a Druid using Wildshape?

A Druid by 40th level can rock round with "racial" bonuses to STR DEX and CON, of arround 30 each, whilst still getting various Ex and Su abilities... now I don't know if it is 100% comparable to a Sorc or Wiz casting PARAGON Transformation, but it is a long a similiar vein true? And yet there is no LA penalty set against the Druid.

NOTE: I am now inquiring from a PERMANENT not INSTANTANEOUS stand point (I agree Instantaneous would warrant some set back. As a permanent Spell however, it is simply a Buff, wou8ld that still incur LA?)
GAMBLE_d13
03-21-07, 09:56 AM You might also consider some of the templates that can be applied at a gold and and XP cost. Spellstitched for example, or the spell in LEoF that grants the half-fiend template.

Can you expand on this, as I am not aware of the Templates, do they incur LA penalties when using a Spell?
rob_douglas
03-21-07, 11:06 AM I don't think a Permanent spell would require the LA, again in part because it can be dispelled and suppressed by AntiMagic, or if necessary Epic Wards.

The LEoF Spell being referred to Transforms a target into a half-fiend. The rules then state that you stay at the same total XP, but gain the LA. As a result, you need lots more experience points to go up one more class level - as you have to buy back the LA. And you are earning less XP since your ECL is higher now too. E.g if you cast it on a 6th level Sorcerer, he would become ECL 10, but still only have ECL 6 XPs (15-21K XP). He would need to gain 6+7+8+9 = 30K more XP beyond 15K to gain a class level - so at a minimum 24K more. That is a steep price to pay. By contrast, a cleric spell that grants the same template (Greater Visage of the Deity) has no LA, because it is not Instantaneous. It lasts rounds, but could be made to last all day as a Persistent spell.

So I think that just tacking on the LA is more than enough price to pay. You gain some great abilities right away, but you won't be leveling for years to come....

ROB
GAMBLE_d13
03-22-07, 11:38 AM Thankyou very much, as always you are a great help...

I like the idea of being able to aquire templates then paying them off, or using templates as "buffs", I don't think I'll be in any rush to let a PC become a Paragon tho.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HalfMunchkin 03-17-07, 05:12 PM	Please tell me if I did this right and if it is balanced. Paragon Rebirth [Epic Spell] Transmutation Spellcraft DC: 46 Components: V, S , DF Casting Time: 1 action Range: Touch Target: Creature Touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fotitude Negates Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) To Develop: 504,000 gp; 11 days; 20,160 XP. Seeds: transform (DC 21), heal (DC 25). Factors: 1-action casting time (+20 DC), Applying a template with all abilities gained (ad hoc +200 DC). Mitigating factors: burn 10,000 XP (–100 DC), Backlash 20d6 (-20 DC), one additional caster contributing 1st-level spell slot (–1 DC), one additional caster contributing 2nd-level spell slot (–3 DC), one additional caster contributing 3rd-level spell slot (–5 DC), one additional caster contributing 4th-level spell slot (–7 DC), one additional caster contributing 5th-level spell slot (–9 DC), one additional caster contributing 6th-level spell slot (–11 DC), one additional caster contributing 7th-level spell slot (–13 DC), one additional caster contributing 8th-level spell slot (–15 DC), one additional caster contributing 9th-level spell slot (–17 DC), one additional caster contributing epic-level spell slot (–19 DC) This spell immediately grants the target the Paragon Template and completely cures her of all diseases, blindness, deafness, hit point damage, and temporary ability damage; neutralizes all poisons in the subject’s system so that no additional damage or effects are suffered; offsets feeblemindedness and cures mental disorders caused by spells or injury to the brain. It dispels all magical effects penalizing the character’s abilities, including effects caused by spells, even epic spells developed with the afflict seed. Experience Point cost: 10,000; Backlash cost: 20d6 damage
Aluroon 03-17-07, 05:54 PM	Whats P.E.A.C.H Stand for?
DeathXI 03-17-07, 06:06 PM	Whats P.E.A.C.H Stand for? Please Examine and Critique Honestly. It's an interesting view -- I'm not all that great at balance myself, but doesn't the Paragon template add like +8 to your ECL if you're over 16 HD? In any case, I think the way tou designed the ritual is unique, but wasteful -- it would have been easier to just have them all contribute say..5th level slots. That being said, I doubt many DM's would allow it in the game, considering the overpowering factors in the Paragon template -- especially if the changes were retroactive -- maybe if you sacrificed/burned some levels to make up for the ECL gain though. Cool Idea though.
HalfMunchkin 03-17-07, 06:44 PM	I know no DM would allow it in there campaign, I designed it for mine. Any DM I could convince to let me use it, I would also be able to convince them to let my character be Divine Rank 0. I just wanted to know if it was done correctly and is technically balanced.
bluemage55 03-17-07, 08:31 PM	It would be balanced if you also applied a +15 LA, and 15 negative levels that cannot be removed except buy level-gain (effectively buying off the LA).
rob_douglas 03-19-07, 04:37 PM	Let's see - you made the ad hoc +200 for getting all the Paragon's abilities. I have no idea if that is the right amount or too low or high. A lot of folks have tried using the Fortify seed to add all the abilities, but that also seems like overkill - since you have to add it for each ability. Transform seems more like the right "flavor". However, in order to make it last "forever" you used a loophole that I believe is not valid (others disagree). You added the Heal seed purely to make the spell Instantaneous, so it can't be dispelled - the theory being that Instantaneous is the shortest duration and take precedence. Instead - the duration should be Instantaneous and 20 hours. The Instantaneous parts should not be combined with the ongoing magical effects portion of the spell. See Damnation for an example. You should have to pay the x5 factor to at least make it permanent. But then it is still technically dispellable, and susceptible to an AMF. To make it a truly instantaneous transformation, which should be doable - the factor of x10 has been suggested on the boards (x5 for permanent, and x2 more). This seems more than fair. Again, I think that the +200 might even be too high. At the end of the spell, you should now be playing with a +15 Level Adjustment. It is questionable how your DM will deal with that situation where your XP don't match your ECL. Savage Species suggests it is fine to just take forever to get your next level, but I prefer something like Bluemage's suggestion. Another thought might be to add a mitigating factor where you give up some of your existing HD to get the template, so that you won't have as much to earn back. If the Template is not granted Instantaneously, then the Level Adjustment would not apply. Might make Permanent, with a high anti-dispelling factor more worth it. ROB
GAMBLE_d13 03-20-07, 05:00 AM	Why would he get the LA? If he summoned a Balor to Permanently fight alongside him, it would never cost him XP, if it is within the power of a caster to Buff himself (even if they are using a Template) then don't the rules state that that is simply within his ECL already?
bluemage55 03-20-07, 06:31 AM	Why would he get the LA? If he summoned a Balor to Permanently fight alongside him, it would never cost him XP, if it is within the power of a caster to Buff himself (even if they are using a Template) then don't the rules state that that is simply within his ECL already? You can refer to various spells that grant templates as a precedent. If he wanted to not gain a template, but to grant himself bonuses similar to the paragon template, then he can do so, but it will be extremely costly, cumbersome, and subject to dispelling.
HerbalTea 03-20-07, 09:25 AM	I know no DM would allow it in there campaign, I designed it for mine. Any DM I could convince to let me use it, I would also be able to convince them to let my character be Divine Rank 0. I just wanted to know if it was done correctly and is technically balanced. I would certainly consider using it. Mostly very good, except for the use of the heal seed :)
rob_douglas 03-20-07, 10:43 AM	Why would he get the LA? If he summoned a Balor to Permanently fight alongside him, it would never cost him XP, if it is within the power of a caster to Buff himself (even if they are using a Template) then don't the rules state that that is simply within his ECL already? There is a big difference between Instantaneous and Permanent, namely the ability to dispel it. In your particular example, even if you used a calling to make it an Instantaneous effect, the Balor itself is subject to nullification short of defeating your character alone. Granting the Template allows a lot more effects than other Instantaneous allowances. Just for instance, there is no other way to gain +15 to all your stats (racial bonus from the Template). If you try to grant them Instantaneously with an epic spell, they become inherent bonuses and are limited to +5. So there has to be some penalty for granting a +15 bonus to all abilities. Now there is no way to argue this all by the RAW, since the everything in such a spell is ad hoc and subject to DM interpretation. I am just offering my opinion on what I think would be fair. It is worth whatever value you give it. The reason I think that a Level Adjustment is fair is that it is like the rules presented in Chapter 11 of Savage Species, regarding transforming permanently (instantaneously) into a monster. And, my take on Level Adjustment is that you have to earn more XP to go up a level simply because things are easier for you, and therefore you don't benefit as much from the experience. ROB
Starmage21 03-20-07, 12:46 PM	There is a big difference between Instantaneous and Permanent, namely the ability to dispel it. In your particular example, even if you used a calling to make it an Instantaneous effect, the Balor itself is subject to nullification short of defeating your character alone. Granting the Template allows a lot more effects than other Instantaneous allowances. Just for instance, there is no other way to gain +15 to all your stats (racial bonus from the Template). If you try to grant them Instantaneously with an epic spell, they become inherent bonuses and are limited to +5. So there has to be some penalty for granting a +15 bonus to all abilities. Now there is no way to argue this all by the RAW, since the everything in such a spell is ad hoc and subject to DM interpretation. I am just offering my opinion on what I think would be fair. It is worth whatever value you give it. The reason I think that a Level Adjustment is fair is that it is like the rules presented in Chapter 11 of Savage Species, regarding transforming permanently (instantaneously) into a monster. And, my take on Level Adjustment is that you have to earn more XP to go up a level simply because things are easier for you, and therefore you don't benefit as much from the experience. ROB You might also consider some of the templates that can be applied at a gold and and XP cost. Spellstitched for example, or the spell in LEoF that grants the half-fiend template.
GAMBLE_d13 03-21-07, 09:55 AM	I understand it seems powerful (and it is! I would never allow it as a DM), however, can't one argue from a perspective compared to a Druid using Wildshape? A Druid by 40th level can rock round with "racial" bonuses to STR DEX and CON, of arround 30 each, whilst still getting various Ex and Su abilities... now I don't know if it is 100% comparable to a Sorc or Wiz casting PARAGON Transformation, but it is a long a similiar vein true? And yet there is no LA penalty set against the Druid. NOTE: I am now inquiring from a PERMANENT not INSTANTANEOUS stand point (I agree Instantaneous would warrant some set back. As a permanent Spell however, it is simply a Buff, wou8ld that still incur LA?)
GAMBLE_d13 03-21-07, 09:56 AM	You might also consider some of the templates that can be applied at a gold and and XP cost. Spellstitched for example, or the spell in LEoF that grants the half-fiend template. Can you expand on this, as I am not aware of the Templates, do they incur LA penalties when using a Spell?
rob_douglas 03-21-07, 11:06 AM	I don't think a Permanent spell would require the LA, again in part because it can be dispelled and suppressed by AntiMagic, or if necessary Epic Wards. The LEoF Spell being referred to Transforms a target into a half-fiend. The rules then state that you stay at the same total XP, but gain the LA. As a result, you need lots more experience points to go up one more class level - as you have to buy back the LA. And you are earning less XP since your ECL is higher now too. E.g if you cast it on a 6th level Sorcerer, he would become ECL 10, but still only have ECL 6 XPs (15-21K XP). He would need to gain 6+7+8+9 = 30K more XP beyond 15K to gain a class level - so at a minimum 24K more. That is a steep price to pay. By contrast, a cleric spell that grants the same template (Greater Visage of the Deity) has no LA, because it is not Instantaneous. It lasts rounds, but could be made to last all day as a Persistent spell. So I think that just tacking on the LA is more than enough price to pay. You gain some great abilities right away, but you won't be leveling for years to come.... ROB
GAMBLE_d13 03-22-07, 11:38 AM	Thankyou very much, as always you are a great help... I like the idea of being able to aquire templates then paying them off, or using templates as "buffs", I don't think I'll be in any rush to let a PC become a Paragon tho.