Epic Spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Epic Spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DwarvenLord77
12-31-07, 05:26 PM ok.... so im DMing my first campaign (was a gray elf wizard in previous campaign, but DM wanted to play...) and players decided they wanted an epic level campaign. The party is 25th level composed of a rogue-ish character, Hammer of Moradin, Cleric/Skypledged (Races of Wild), and a straight warmage. All but the former DM are not very well read in rules etc. so I have to help them extensively in character development. Anyway, the Cleric and Warmage want their epic level spells naturally, which i havent really looked at much (just got Epic Level Handbook) and i have two questions.

1. How is it at all possible that any epic rogue can jump out of the way of a huge explosion of fire (im thinking something of the energy seed for an epic spell with maybe something like sculpt spell (complete arcane) to make it so the spell makes a huge burst (this would be 11th level spell, but with an epic feat, i forget the name, they get spells above 10th based off ability modifier)) and take no damage from their improved evasion? I mean im envisioning a gigantic explosion and the rogue is standing 10 ft from you, and he makes the reflex save takes no damage from evasion. What did he do? Jump behind a rock? What if they are in a barren wasteland. I cant possibly imagine the rogue being able to jump to the edge of the explosion. And even so, then they would be at least 50 ft away on their next turn instead of standing 10ft from the caster. All in all, how is the reflex save at all plausible for epic spells?

2. Secondly, If there is no easy way to get past the reflex save (like i dont want the caster wasting a bunch of feats and money to max out their ability modifier) are there any ways they can cast epic rays. I have seen no reference to any. And that would make there spell casting much less frustrating.

Thanks ahead of time
Tequila_Sunrise
12-31-07, 07:32 PM The commonly accepted explanation of reflex saves and evasion isn't that the character dives behind some sort of cover, but that the character simply ducks/bends/twists into an area of the spell that doesn't have quiet as much flame/cold/lightning/whatever. In other words, area damage spells don't fill every square foot of their area with the same intense energy; there are areas of intensity and areas possibly even free of energy.
DwarvenLord77
12-31-07, 08:38 PM Thanks for the explanation of Reflex saves, but does anyone know of any epic rays?
Tequila_Sunrise
12-31-07, 10:28 PM Well of course you can boost pre epic rays with metamagic feats and Improved Spell Capacity. Or you can create epic (via Epic Spellcasting feat) ray spells; one of the general modifications that you can apply turns a spell's area into a ray. The first option is really the best, as Epic Spellcasting sucks for creating direct damage spells.

Also, you might consider using my epic 3.75 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=966322) rules. Quite frankly, a lot of the ELH is trash (I feel your pain, I bought it too) and just about anyone with a decent understanding of d&d rules can do better.
DwarvenLord77
01-01-08, 07:35 PM thanks for the link ill probably use a few things from that.
Aluroon
01-02-08, 02:55 PM 1. How is it at all possible that any epic rogue can jump out of the way of a huge explosion of fire (im thinking something of the energy seed for an epic spell with maybe something like sculpt spell (complete arcane) to make it so the spell makes a huge burst (this would be 11th level spell, but with an epic feat, i forget the name, they get spells above 10th based off ability modifier)) and take no damage from their improved evasion? I mean im envisioning a gigantic explosion and the rogue is standing 10 ft from you, and he makes the reflex save takes no damage from evasion. What did he do? Jump behind a rock? What if they are in a barren wasteland. I cant possibly imagine the rogue being able to jump to the edge of the explosion. And even so, then they would be at least 50 ft away on their next turn instead of standing 10ft from the caster. All in all, how is the reflex save at all plausible for epic spells?

He quickly jumps away (out of the radius) then jumps back to his exact position with no time elapsed. I've always ruled in my games evasion was 1/4th damage instead of none. Never bought reasonably that you could completely avoid any damage at all. Either that or you can force him to spend his move action to move out o the way of the fireball/lightning bolt.
rob_douglas
01-03-08, 11:34 PM Well remember that damage itself is an abstract concept. Seriously, hand grenades kill, but you have no problem with an epic fighter being hit full force by a meteor swarm for full damage?

Speaking of which, Meteor Swarm with Archmage Master of Elements is the bane of Rogues. Make it sonic, and hit them for no save. Intendify it for double max damage. Of course that is 16th level. Empowered is 11th level.

Also, you seem to not understand the difference between Epic Spells, and spells above 9th level using metamagic. You may want to reread all of this. Basically, Epic Spells cannot be adjusted with Metamagic, and they do not use spell slots. They are based off of Knowledge Arcana ranks (for a wizard). You only get 10th level spell slots, for putting metamagicked spells into, by taking Improved Spell Capacity, and you have to take it a second time to get 11th level spells, and again for 12th, and so on. High ability score modifiers only give you extra slots for which you have at least 1 spell due to ISC feats. Unless you are a god with Divine Spellcasting....

Epic Spells are notoriously bad at doing direct damage. They are better for fascinating stuff. But you can avoid the reflex save by designing it to be a touch spell or ranged touch spell. You can also raise the spell save DC to make them not be able to do make it.

ROB
NoldorForce
01-04-08, 02:13 AM Speaking of which, Meteor Swarm with Archmage Master of Elements is the bane of Rogues. Make it sonic, and hit them for no save. Intendify it for double max damage. Of course that is 16th level. Empowered is 11th level.Or you could use Maw of Chaos, which is lots more fun and uncapped to boot. But Meteor Swarm on its own is fun for damage, and core too. Anyway...Epic Spells are notoriously bad at doing direct damage. They are better for fascinating stuff.This is the big point about epic spells; they stink for quick use in combat. They're much better as days-long buffs, or continent-spanning effects that no non-epic spell will ever touch.

Vengeful Gaze of God? Bad epic spell.
Animus Blizzard? Bad epic spell.
Epic Mage Armor? Good epic spell.
Eternal Freedom? Good epic spell.
Raise Island? Good epic spell.
Verdigris Tsunami? Good epic spell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DwarvenLord77 12-31-07, 05:26 PM	ok.... so im DMing my first campaign (was a gray elf wizard in previous campaign, but DM wanted to play...) and players decided they wanted an epic level campaign. The party is 25th level composed of a rogue-ish character, Hammer of Moradin, Cleric/Skypledged (Races of Wild), and a straight warmage. All but the former DM are not very well read in rules etc. so I have to help them extensively in character development. Anyway, the Cleric and Warmage want their epic level spells naturally, which i havent really looked at much (just got Epic Level Handbook) and i have two questions. 1. How is it at all possible that any epic rogue can jump out of the way of a huge explosion of fire (im thinking something of the energy seed for an epic spell with maybe something like sculpt spell (complete arcane) to make it so the spell makes a huge burst (this would be 11th level spell, but with an epic feat, i forget the name, they get spells above 10th based off ability modifier)) and take no damage from their improved evasion? I mean im envisioning a gigantic explosion and the rogue is standing 10 ft from you, and he makes the reflex save takes no damage from evasion. What did he do? Jump behind a rock? What if they are in a barren wasteland. I cant possibly imagine the rogue being able to jump to the edge of the explosion. And even so, then they would be at least 50 ft away on their next turn instead of standing 10ft from the caster. All in all, how is the reflex save at all plausible for epic spells? 2. Secondly, If there is no easy way to get past the reflex save (like i dont want the caster wasting a bunch of feats and money to max out their ability modifier) are there any ways they can cast epic rays. I have seen no reference to any. And that would make there spell casting much less frustrating. Thanks ahead of time
Tequila_Sunrise 12-31-07, 07:32 PM	The commonly accepted explanation of reflex saves and evasion isn't that the character dives behind some sort of cover, but that the character simply ducks/bends/twists into an area of the spell that doesn't have quiet as much flame/cold/lightning/whatever. In other words, area damage spells don't fill every square foot of their area with the same intense energy; there are areas of intensity and areas possibly even free of energy.
DwarvenLord77 12-31-07, 08:38 PM	Thanks for the explanation of Reflex saves, but does anyone know of any epic rays?
Tequila_Sunrise 12-31-07, 10:28 PM	Well of course you can boost pre epic rays with metamagic feats and Improved Spell Capacity. Or you can create epic (via Epic Spellcasting feat) ray spells; one of the general modifications that you can apply turns a spell's area into a ray. The first option is really the best, as Epic Spellcasting sucks for creating direct damage spells. Also, you might consider using my epic 3.75 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=966322) rules. Quite frankly, a lot of the ELH is trash (I feel your pain, I bought it too) and just about anyone with a decent understanding of d&d rules can do better.
DwarvenLord77 01-01-08, 07:35 PM	thanks for the link ill probably use a few things from that.
Aluroon 01-02-08, 02:55 PM	1. How is it at all possible that any epic rogue can jump out of the way of a huge explosion of fire (im thinking something of the energy seed for an epic spell with maybe something like sculpt spell (complete arcane) to make it so the spell makes a huge burst (this would be 11th level spell, but with an epic feat, i forget the name, they get spells above 10th based off ability modifier)) and take no damage from their improved evasion? I mean im envisioning a gigantic explosion and the rogue is standing 10 ft from you, and he makes the reflex save takes no damage from evasion. What did he do? Jump behind a rock? What if they are in a barren wasteland. I cant possibly imagine the rogue being able to jump to the edge of the explosion. And even so, then they would be at least 50 ft away on their next turn instead of standing 10ft from the caster. All in all, how is the reflex save at all plausible for epic spells? He quickly jumps away (out of the radius) then jumps back to his exact position with no time elapsed. I've always ruled in my games evasion was 1/4th damage instead of none. Never bought reasonably that you could completely avoid any damage at all. Either that or you can force him to spend his move action to move out o the way of the fireball/lightning bolt.
rob_douglas 01-03-08, 11:34 PM	Well remember that damage itself is an abstract concept. Seriously, hand grenades kill, but you have no problem with an epic fighter being hit full force by a meteor swarm for full damage? Speaking of which, Meteor Swarm with Archmage Master of Elements is the bane of Rogues. Make it sonic, and hit them for no save. Intendify it for double max damage. Of course that is 16th level. Empowered is 11th level. Also, you seem to not understand the difference between Epic Spells, and spells above 9th level using metamagic. You may want to reread all of this. Basically, Epic Spells cannot be adjusted with Metamagic, and they do not use spell slots. They are based off of Knowledge Arcana ranks (for a wizard). You only get 10th level spell slots, for putting metamagicked spells into, by taking Improved Spell Capacity, and you have to take it a second time to get 11th level spells, and again for 12th, and so on. High ability score modifiers only give you extra slots for which you have at least 1 spell due to ISC feats. Unless you are a god with Divine Spellcasting.... Epic Spells are notoriously bad at doing direct damage. They are better for fascinating stuff. But you can avoid the reflex save by designing it to be a touch spell or ranged touch spell. You can also raise the spell save DC to make them not be able to do make it. ROB
NoldorForce 01-04-08, 02:13 AM	Speaking of which, Meteor Swarm with Archmage Master of Elements is the bane of Rogues. Make it sonic, and hit them for no save. Intendify it for double max damage. Of course that is 16th level. Empowered is 11th level.Or you could use Maw of Chaos, which is lots more fun and uncapped to boot. But Meteor Swarm on its own is fun for damage, and core too. Anyway...Epic Spells are notoriously bad at doing direct damage. They are better for fascinating stuff.This is the big point about epic spells; they stink for quick use in combat. They're much better as days-long buffs, or continent-spanning effects that no non-epic spell will ever touch. Vengeful Gaze of God? Bad epic spell. Animus Blizzard? Bad epic spell. Epic Mage Armor? Good epic spell. Eternal Freedom? Good epic spell. Raise Island? Good epic spell. Verdigris Tsunami? Good epic spell.