Epic Starting Gold [Archive] - Wizards Community

Epic Starting Gold [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
VengefulGazeofGod
12-24-07, 10:07 PM This has most likely been asked before but I couldn't find it so here I go:
Has anyone figured out a pattern in the starting gold over 20th level chart? From what I could figure, the charts from 1-20 and 20-40 follow a roughly seven level pattern then start off on another, seemingly random pattern that repeats the process.
If anyone has a formula that I could just plug a digit or two into and figure it all out then I'll buy you a cookie!

Well off topic Merry Christmas everyone!
:cool:
Graah
12-25-07, 01:57 AM This has most likely been asked before but I couldn't find it so here I go:
Has anyone figured out a pattern in the starting gold over 20th level chart? From what I could figure, the charts from 1-20 and 20-40 follow a roughly seven level pattern then start off on another, seemingly random pattern that repeats the process.
If anyone has a formula that I could just plug a digit or two into and figure it all out then I'll buy you a cookie!

You mean default PC Wealth?

It was in some thread in some of these boards, but I don't have a link and I don't bother to search for it. So this isn't my work:

I'd like to note that this is in no way official, it's just what I calculated on my own.

I started out by calculating the difference in the increase per level and trying to detect a pattern in them. Looking at the levels 29-40 I was able to come up with a pattern of sorts, that goes a little like this (leaving out the zero's): +5, +5, +6, +7, +7, +7, +9, +9, +11, +11, +13, +13.

Continuing this pattern would give is something like: +15, +18, +18, +18, +21, +21, +24, +24, +27, +27, +30, +34, +34, +34, +38, +38, +42, +42, +46, +46, +50, +55, +55, +55, +60, +60, +65, +65, +70, +70, +75, +81, +81, +81, +87, +87, +93, +93, +99, +99.

And here's the table for PC wealth from level 41:

Level Amount
41st 15,100,000 gp
42nd 16,900,000 gp
43rd 18,700,000 gp
44th 20,500,000 gp
45th 22,600,000 gp
46th 24,700,000 gp
47th 27,100,000 gp
48th 29,500,000 gp
49th 32,200,000 gp
50th 34,900,000 gp
51st 37,900,000 gp
52nd 41,300,000 gp
53rd 44,700,000 gp
54th 48,100,000 gp
55th 51,900,000 gp
56th 55,700,000 gp
57th 59,900,000 gp
58th 64,100,000 gp
59th 68,700,000 gp
60th 73,300,000 gp
61st 78,300,000 gp
62nd 83,800,000 gp
63rd 89,300,000 gp
64th 94,800,000 gp
65th 100,800,000 gp
66th 106,800,000 gp
67th 113,300,000 gp
68th 119,800,000 gp
69th 126,800,000 gp
70th 133,800,000 gp
71st 141,300,000 gp
72nd 149,400,000 gp
73rd 157,500,000 gp
74th 165,600,000 gp
75th 174,300,000 gp
76th 183,000,000 gp
77th 192,300,000 gp
78th 201,600,000 gp
79th 211,500,000 gp
80th 221,400,000 gp

Here's also NPC Wealth (can't quite remember how these were calculated):

Level Amount
41st 1,610,000 gp
42nd 1,760,000 gp
43rd 1,920,000 gp
44th 2,090,000 gp
45th 2,270,000 gp
46th 2,460,000 gp
47th 2,660,000 gp
48th 2,870,000 gp
49th 3,090,000 gp
50th 3,320,000 gp
BigGus
12-25-07, 08:17 PM I've looked myself, and I don't think there is a simple formula, not for the whole chart at least.

I don't think the chart Graah quotes for PCs level 41+ can be right, since NPC wealth is explicitly stated to increase +10% per level after 30th (as it does at 21-30) and the chart ends up increasing by less than +5% per level. At that rate, a high enough level NPC would end up with more wealth than a same-level PC.

I think PC wealth is meant to increase by +10% per level after 40th. If you look at the chart, the multiplier decreases quickly at first, then more slowly, seeming to tend towards levelling off at about +10%, which it almost reaches by level 39-40. A +10% per level for PCs and NPCs would keep the value of their relative wealth the same, and would have the value of being simple and intuitive (which, admittedly, is more than can be said for the rest of the chart).
rob_douglas
12-26-07, 12:46 AM Go to the Epic Boards FAQ at the top of the main page, and search for wealth. It is all in there, including a long table of calculated values, and formulae you can use to deduce the values as needed.

ROB
BigGus
12-26-07, 08:36 AM Go to the Epic Boards FAQ at the top of the main page, and search for wealth. It is all in there, including a long table of calculated values, and formulae you can use to deduce the values as needed.

ROB

Which agree with what I said: +10% per level for both PCs and NPCs after their respective tables top out.
Aluroon
12-27-07, 01:08 PM Go to the Epic Boards FAQ at the top of the main page, and search for wealth. It is all in there, including a long table of calculated values, and formulae you can use to deduce the values as needed.

ROB

But that would involve looking with his eyes instead of his mouth...
Graah
12-28-07, 12:42 AM Which agree with what I said: +10% per level for both PCs and NPCs after their respective tables top out.
Fine, but that +10 % per level is not mentioned in ELH. Where is it?

PC Wealth table in ELH (page 23) seems to give about 11 % per level over 35.

Doesn't matter much, I'd just like to know where that +10 % was "officially ruled"...
BigGus
12-28-07, 07:02 AM There isn't anywhere official that I know of. If you look at my first post, I say "I (don't) think" three times and "seeming to" once, which should indicate that these are my own ideas, rather than an official rule. However:

PC wealth has to increase at least +10%/level, or NPCs would start catching up with them. All the way up to level 40, PC wealth increases at the same speed or faster than NPC wealth. So you could argue that PC wealth should increase at, say, +11%/level after 40th, but I don't think it makes sense for it to increase at less than +10%/level.

The PC wealth table multiplier descends in irregular steps, with the last one being +10.57%. If you graph out the values, they certainly seem to tend towards levelling off at about +10%/level.

So make up your own mind about what makes most sense. As I said, I use +10% because it's "simple and intuitive" and seems to fit the pattern.
rob_douglas
12-28-07, 09:07 AM +10% comes from the ELH, page 122 - "at epic levels treasure values increase by approximately 10% per Encounter Level." Since the number of suitable encounters of a given level based on character level remains constant per the XP tables, then the expected wealth increases at about +10%. The tables look more like 11% because they round up at each level. Rounding shouldn't matter, they are just guidelines anyway.

The simplest way to get the wealth value of any PC over 40th level (L) is to take the 40th level starting gold (W) and use this formula:

1.1^(L-40) * W

Not perfect, but within the margin of error on rounding issues.

ROB
Graah
12-28-07, 10:12 AM The simplest way to get the wealth value of any PC over 40th level (L) is to take the 40th level starting gold (W) and use this formula:

1.1^(L-40) * W

Not perfect, but within the margin of error on rounding issues.

Using the pattern gives 221 million gold at 80th level - that formula almost triples it, to 615 million. ;)

Anyway, this is mostly theoretical. I'm not planning an 80th level game, not even a 40th or 30th level. Might be interesting though.

Our longest campaign does have characters who just reached 21st level - took six years and something like 100 to 150 game sessions. Played from 1st level, started when first D&D 3(.0) book came out.
elondir
12-28-07, 11:23 AM 80th level is on par with the gods themselves. In fact, they're probably more powerful than the gods. So why would 615 million gp be a problem if 221 million isn't? 80th level PCs are probably the immortal (if not divine) rulers of entire solar systems. They can probably do all that gonzo stuff in the ELH skills chapter (squeezing through walls of force, balancing on a cloud and using tumble to fall 10 miles to the ground and land safely, using diplomacy to turn Asmodeus into a fanatical follower, etc.) without even trying.
Graah
12-28-07, 02:30 PM 80th level is on par with the gods themselves. In fact, they're probably more powerful than the gods. So why would 615 million gp be a problem if 221 million isn't?
It will be very hard to spend 615 million. :P
80th level PCs are probably the immortal (if not divine) rulers of entire solar systems.
Nope. They might be immortal, but, unless they have divine ranks...:

Life and Death:
* Prerequisites: Divine rank 6, Gift of Life or Hand of Death salient divine ability.
* Benefit: The deity designates any mortal and snuffs out its life.

No matter on which plane the target is, no saving throw, no SR - nothing can prevent this, apart from divine ranks and divine powers.

All deities are also immune to all mind-affecting effects. Perhaps they can be turned into fanatic followers by Diplomacy, but that's up to the DM.
VengefulGazeofGod
12-28-07, 09:36 PM Well, I was mostly curious because I am in the process of building a 45th level fighter/rogue and wanted to have a general idea of a round figure to spend on him.

Ten percent per level after 40th sounds like what I am going to go with. The 600 mill equation sounds like fun for an epic caster but there would be no other reason or purpose for it.

Thanks everyone and have a loathsome, abusive, and amoral New Year.
:cool:
rob_douglas
12-29-07, 12:50 AM RE: Life and Death:
the ability works like the destruction spell, except that there is no material component or saving throw.
Any immunity to death effects prevents this from working. Death Ward, being undead, etc.

Re: Graaa - on the 80th level wealth - where do you get 212 million? Even the table given in the FAQ has 108 million at 60th level, so it will surpass that value in 7 levels (rules of 72: a value doubles in 72/increase rate % units. So 72/10 = 7.2 units, which are levels, so every 7.2 levels, wealth doubles.).

So looking at that, you get 13.6 at 40th, 27 at 47th, 54 54th, 108 at 61st, 216 at 68th, 432 at 75th and just about 600 at 80th - hitting 850 or so at around 82nd level.

So what "pattern" gives you 212 at 80th? Looking at the wealth increase from 20th-40th, the pattern is actually more generous than the formula I gave. Using that, you only go from 760,000 at 20th to 5.12 million at 40th, instead of the 13.6 million they have there. Rules of 72 gets you 6 million at 10% rate. Actual rate is more like 14.4%, which gives a doubling every 5 levels, for a total of 16 times the wealth in 20 levels. Most of that comes from the 28% increase form 20th to 21st though. The rest are all right around 10% per level.

[Edit: Sorry, they don't come out to 10% per level until closer to 40th. It is another 23% at 22nd, 20% at 23rd and 24th, and then slowly down from there to closer to 13% at 30th. The average is over 14.4% over those 20 levels though. I don't see any pattern that will give less than 600 million at 80th, but plenty that would give more.]

ROB

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
VengefulGazeofGod 12-24-07, 10:07 PM	This has most likely been asked before but I couldn't find it so here I go: Has anyone figured out a pattern in the starting gold over 20th level chart? From what I could figure, the charts from 1-20 and 20-40 follow a roughly seven level pattern then start off on another, seemingly random pattern that repeats the process. If anyone has a formula that I could just plug a digit or two into and figure it all out then I'll buy you a cookie! Well off topic Merry Christmas everyone! :cool:
Graah 12-25-07, 01:57 AM	This has most likely been asked before but I couldn't find it so here I go: Has anyone figured out a pattern in the starting gold over 20th level chart? From what I could figure, the charts from 1-20 and 20-40 follow a roughly seven level pattern then start off on another, seemingly random pattern that repeats the process. If anyone has a formula that I could just plug a digit or two into and figure it all out then I'll buy you a cookie! You mean default PC Wealth? It was in some thread in some of these boards, but I don't have a link and I don't bother to search for it. So this isn't my work: I'd like to note that this is in no way official, it's just what I calculated on my own. I started out by calculating the difference in the increase per level and trying to detect a pattern in them. Looking at the levels 29-40 I was able to come up with a pattern of sorts, that goes a little like this (leaving out the zero's): +5, +5, +6, +7, +7, +7, +9, +9, +11, +11, +13, +13. Continuing this pattern would give is something like: +15, +18, +18, +18, +21, +21, +24, +24, +27, +27, +30, +34, +34, +34, +38, +38, +42, +42, +46, +46, +50, +55, +55, +55, +60, +60, +65, +65, +70, +70, +75, +81, +81, +81, +87, +87, +93, +93, +99, +99. And here's the table for PC wealth from level 41: Level Amount 41st 15,100,000 gp 42nd 16,900,000 gp 43rd 18,700,000 gp 44th 20,500,000 gp 45th 22,600,000 gp 46th 24,700,000 gp 47th 27,100,000 gp 48th 29,500,000 gp 49th 32,200,000 gp 50th 34,900,000 gp 51st 37,900,000 gp 52nd 41,300,000 gp 53rd 44,700,000 gp 54th 48,100,000 gp 55th 51,900,000 gp 56th 55,700,000 gp 57th 59,900,000 gp 58th 64,100,000 gp 59th 68,700,000 gp 60th 73,300,000 gp 61st 78,300,000 gp 62nd 83,800,000 gp 63rd 89,300,000 gp 64th 94,800,000 gp 65th 100,800,000 gp 66th 106,800,000 gp 67th 113,300,000 gp 68th 119,800,000 gp 69th 126,800,000 gp 70th 133,800,000 gp 71st 141,300,000 gp 72nd 149,400,000 gp 73rd 157,500,000 gp 74th 165,600,000 gp 75th 174,300,000 gp 76th 183,000,000 gp 77th 192,300,000 gp 78th 201,600,000 gp 79th 211,500,000 gp 80th 221,400,000 gp Here's also NPC Wealth (can't quite remember how these were calculated): Level Amount 41st 1,610,000 gp 42nd 1,760,000 gp 43rd 1,920,000 gp 44th 2,090,000 gp 45th 2,270,000 gp 46th 2,460,000 gp 47th 2,660,000 gp 48th 2,870,000 gp 49th 3,090,000 gp 50th 3,320,000 gp
BigGus 12-25-07, 08:17 PM	I've looked myself, and I don't think there is a simple formula, not for the whole chart at least. I don't think the chart Graah quotes for PCs level 41+ can be right, since NPC wealth is explicitly stated to increase +10% per level after 30th (as it does at 21-30) and the chart ends up increasing by less than +5% per level. At that rate, a high enough level NPC would end up with more wealth than a same-level PC. I think PC wealth is meant to increase by +10% per level after 40th. If you look at the chart, the multiplier decreases quickly at first, then more slowly, seeming to tend towards levelling off at about +10%, which it almost reaches by level 39-40. A +10% per level for PCs and NPCs would keep the value of their relative wealth the same, and would have the value of being simple and intuitive (which, admittedly, is more than can be said for the rest of the chart).
rob_douglas 12-26-07, 12:46 AM	Go to the Epic Boards FAQ at the top of the main page, and search for wealth. It is all in there, including a long table of calculated values, and formulae you can use to deduce the values as needed. ROB
BigGus 12-26-07, 08:36 AM	Go to the Epic Boards FAQ at the top of the main page, and search for wealth. It is all in there, including a long table of calculated values, and formulae you can use to deduce the values as needed. ROB Which agree with what I said: +10% per level for both PCs and NPCs after their respective tables top out.
Aluroon 12-27-07, 01:08 PM	Go to the Epic Boards FAQ at the top of the main page, and search for wealth. It is all in there, including a long table of calculated values, and formulae you can use to deduce the values as needed. ROB But that would involve looking with his eyes instead of his mouth...
Graah 12-28-07, 12:42 AM	Which agree with what I said: +10% per level for both PCs and NPCs after their respective tables top out. Fine, but that +10 % per level is not mentioned in ELH. Where is it? PC Wealth table in ELH (page 23) seems to give about 11 % per level over 35. Doesn't matter much, I'd just like to know where that +10 % was "officially ruled"...
BigGus 12-28-07, 07:02 AM	There isn't anywhere official that I know of. If you look at my first post, I say "I (don't) think" three times and "seeming to" once, which should indicate that these are my own ideas, rather than an official rule. However: PC wealth has to increase at least +10%/level, or NPCs would start catching up with them. All the way up to level 40, PC wealth increases at the same speed or faster than NPC wealth. So you could argue that PC wealth should increase at, say, +11%/level after 40th, but I don't think it makes sense for it to increase at less than +10%/level. The PC wealth table multiplier descends in irregular steps, with the last one being +10.57%. If you graph out the values, they certainly seem to tend towards levelling off at about +10%/level. So make up your own mind about what makes most sense. As I said, I use +10% because it's "simple and intuitive" and seems to fit the pattern.
rob_douglas 12-28-07, 09:07 AM	+10% comes from the ELH, page 122 - "at epic levels treasure values increase by approximately 10% per Encounter Level." Since the number of suitable encounters of a given level based on character level remains constant per the XP tables, then the expected wealth increases at about +10%. The tables look more like 11% because they round up at each level. Rounding shouldn't matter, they are just guidelines anyway. The simplest way to get the wealth value of any PC over 40th level (L) is to take the 40th level starting gold (W) and use this formula: 1.1^(L-40) * W Not perfect, but within the margin of error on rounding issues. ROB
Graah 12-28-07, 10:12 AM	The simplest way to get the wealth value of any PC over 40th level (L) is to take the 40th level starting gold (W) and use this formula: 1.1^(L-40) * W Not perfect, but within the margin of error on rounding issues. Using the pattern gives 221 million gold at 80th level - that formula almost triples it, to 615 million. ;) Anyway, this is mostly theoretical. I'm not planning an 80th level game, not even a 40th or 30th level. Might be interesting though. Our longest campaign does have characters who just reached 21st level - took six years and something like 100 to 150 game sessions. Played from 1st level, started when first D&D 3(.0) book came out.
elondir 12-28-07, 11:23 AM	80th level is on par with the gods themselves. In fact, they're probably more powerful than the gods. So why would 615 million gp be a problem if 221 million isn't? 80th level PCs are probably the immortal (if not divine) rulers of entire solar systems. They can probably do all that gonzo stuff in the ELH skills chapter (squeezing through walls of force, balancing on a cloud and using tumble to fall 10 miles to the ground and land safely, using diplomacy to turn Asmodeus into a fanatical follower, etc.) without even trying.
Graah 12-28-07, 02:30 PM	80th level is on par with the gods themselves. In fact, they're probably more powerful than the gods. So why would 615 million gp be a problem if 221 million isn't? It will be very hard to spend 615 million. :P 80th level PCs are probably the immortal (if not divine) rulers of entire solar systems. Nope. They might be immortal, but, unless they have divine ranks...: Life and Death: * Prerequisites: Divine rank 6, Gift of Life or Hand of Death salient divine ability. * Benefit: The deity designates any mortal and snuffs out its life. No matter on which plane the target is, no saving throw, no SR - nothing can prevent this, apart from divine ranks and divine powers. All deities are also immune to all mind-affecting effects. Perhaps they can be turned into fanatic followers by Diplomacy, but that's up to the DM.
VengefulGazeofGod 12-28-07, 09:36 PM	Well, I was mostly curious because I am in the process of building a 45th level fighter/rogue and wanted to have a general idea of a round figure to spend on him. Ten percent per level after 40th sounds like what I am going to go with. The 600 mill equation sounds like fun for an epic caster but there would be no other reason or purpose for it. Thanks everyone and have a loathsome, abusive, and amoral New Year. :cool:
rob_douglas 12-29-07, 12:50 AM	RE: Life and Death: the ability works like the destruction spell, except that there is no material component or saving throw. Any immunity to death effects prevents this from working. Death Ward, being undead, etc. Re: Graaa - on the 80th level wealth - where do you get 212 million? Even the table given in the FAQ has 108 million at 60th level, so it will surpass that value in 7 levels (rules of 72: a value doubles in 72/increase rate % units. So 72/10 = 7.2 units, which are levels, so every 7.2 levels, wealth doubles.). So looking at that, you get 13.6 at 40th, 27 at 47th, 54 54th, 108 at 61st, 216 at 68th, 432 at 75th and just about 600 at 80th - hitting 850 or so at around 82nd level. So what "pattern" gives you 212 at 80th? Looking at the wealth increase from 20th-40th, the pattern is actually more generous than the formula I gave. Using that, you only go from 760,000 at 20th to 5.12 million at 40th, instead of the 13.6 million they have there. Rules of 72 gets you 6 million at 10% rate. Actual rate is more like 14.4%, which gives a doubling every 5 levels, for a total of 16 times the wealth in 20 levels. Most of that comes from the 28% increase form 20th to 21st though. The rest are all right around 10% per level. [Edit: Sorry, they don't come out to 10% per level until closer to 40th. It is another 23% at 22nd, 20% at 23rd and 24th, and then slowly down from there to closer to 13% at 30th. The average is over 14.4% over those 20 levels though. I don't see any pattern that will give less than 600 million at 80th, but plenty that would give more.] ROB