Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jaerom Darkwind 05-20-07, 12:02 AM	Originally Posted at Dicefreaks (http://projectdf.phpbbnow.com/index.php) Some of these are in need of tweaking, but I don't have the energy right now. DESERT WIND MASTERY [EPIC, TACTICAL] You have learned the greatest secrets of the Desert Wind discipline. DEVOTED SPIRIT MASTERY [EPIC, TACTICAL] You have learned the greatest secrets of the Devoted Spirit discipline. DIAMOND MIND MASTERY [EPIC, TACTICAL] You have learned the greatest secrets of the Diamond Mind discipline. . Prerequisites: Unnerving Calm, Perfect Clarity of Mind and Body, base attack bonus +16, nine diamond mind maneuvers. . Benefits: The Diamond Mind Mastery feat enables the use of two tactical options, both of which are considered 10th-level maneuvers. . Crystal Nightmare Blade: You must assume the Pearl of Black Doubt stance for at least one round prior to using this option. If you then initiate the Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Ruby Nightmare Blade, and Diamond Nightmare Blade maneuvers against a single opponent, you can perform a special strike against that opponent called the Crystal Nightmare Blade. You attempt a Concentration check as part of this maneuver, using the target creature's AC as the DC of the check. You then make a single melee attack against you target. The attack is also part of the maneuver. If your Concentration check succeeds, this attack deals six times your normal melee damage and leaves the target stunned for one round. A successful Fortitude save negates the stunning effect, but does not affect the damage. If your check fails, your attack is made with a -2 penalty and doesn't deal any additional damage. If you take any other action between initiating these maneuvers, including between the Diamond Nightmare Blade and the Crystal Nightmare Blade, the opportunity is lost. . True Insightful Strike: You must assume the Stance of Clarity for at least one round prior to using this option. If you then initiate the Insightful Strike maneuver and follow it immediately with a Greater Insightful Strike, you can perform a special maneuver called the True Insightful Strike. This maneuver functions like the Insightful Strike, except that you deal damage equal to 4 x your Concentration check result. If you fail to initiate the True Insightful Strike immediately after your Greater Insightful Strike, the opportunity is lost. All three strikes must be directed against the target of your Stance of Clarity. EPIC ADAPTIVE STYLE [EPIC] You can change your maneuvers and tactics to meet a new threat with amazing speed. . Prerequisites: Initiator level 21st, Adaptive Style. . Benefits: You can change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a move action. If you're a crusader, your current granted maneuvers are lost and you gain new granted maneuvers as if you had just readied your maneuvers for the day. . Normal: With the Adaptive Style feat, you can change maneuvers only by spending a full-round action to do so. EPIC BOOST [EPIC] You can use two boost maneuvers simultaneously. . Prerequisites: Initiator level 25th, five boosts from any discipline. . Benefits: Whenever you initiate a boost maneuver, you can also initiate any other boost maneuver you know as a free action. Both boosts you initiate are expended normally. . Special: Swordsages gain this feat for free at 20th level. EPIC GRANTED MANEUVER [EPIC] You are especially devout or insightful, and have more control over which of your martial maneuvers are currently granted than other crusaders. . Prerequisites: Crusader level 21st. . Benefit: You begin each encounter with one additional readied maneuver granted. This feat also applies when you determine a new set of granted maneuvers after recovering expended maneuvers. . Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. EPIC READIED MANEUVER [EPIC] You are an unusually perspicacious student of the Sublime Way, and you find it easy to keep a large number of maneuvers ready for use. . Prerequisites: Initiator level 21st. . Benefit: Increase the number of maneuvers you can ready for your martial adept levels by one. . Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. EPIC STANCE [EPIC] You can have multiple stances active simultaneously. . Prerequisites: Dex 23, base attack bonus +21, five martial stances from any discipline. . Benefits: You can gain the benefits of two different martial stances simultaneously. Each stance requires a separate swift action to initiate or change. . Special: Warblades gain this feat for free at 20th level. IRON HEART MASTERY [EPIC, TACTICAL] You have learned the greatest secrets of the Iron Heart discipline. . Prerequisites: Ironheart Aura, Stormguard Mastery, base attack bonus +16, nine iron heart maneuvers. . Benefits: The Iron Heart Mastery feat enables the use of two tactical options, which are both considered 10th-level maneuvers. . Iron Maelstrom: You must assume the Dancing Blade Form for at least one round prior to using this option. If you then initiate the Steel Wind, Mithral Tornado, and Adamantine Hurricane maneuvers in sequence, you can perform a special strike against immediately afterwards called the Iron Maelstrom. You make three melee attacks against each opponent you threaten when you initiate this maneuver. You receive a +8 bonus on each of these attacks, which are otherwise made with your highest base attack bonus. If you take any other action between initiating these maneuvers, including between the Adamantine Hurricane and the Iron Maelstrom, the opportunity is lost. . Oblivion Strike: You must assume the Absolute Steel Stance for at least one round prior to using this option. If you then initiate the Steely Strike, Dazing Strike, and Strike of Perfect Clarity maneuvers in sequence against a single target, you can perform a special maneuver called the Oblivion Strike. The Oblivion Strike allows you to make a coup de gras attempt against the target as a standard action. If you take any other action between initiating these maneuvers, including between the Strike of Perfect Clarity and the Oblivion Strike, the opportunity is lost. LIGHTNING MARTIAL STRIKE [EPIC] You can initiate martial strikes with incredible speed. . Prerequisites: Dex 25, base attack bonus +21, Rapid Martial Strike, nine maneuvers from any discipline. . Benefits: Once per round, you can initiate any martial strike with an initiation time no greater than 1 standard action as an attack action, as in a standard or full attack. You can still choose to make a normal full-attack action, or to mix martial strikes and standard attacks. Martial strikes that require an attack roll default to the bonus of the attack they replace, rather than your highest base attack bonus. . In addition, you can now initiate any two martial strikes as a single full-round action, as long as neither strike's initiation time is greater than 1 full-round. . All strikes you initiate are expended normally. . Special: You can gain this feat more than once. Each time, you can initiate one additional martial strike as an attack action. This does not allow you to make more attacks in a round than you would normally be capable of, though effects like haste may increase your normal maximum number of attacks. When you initiate multiple martial strikes in a full attack, they may be initiated in any order you choose, and take effect consecutively. MARTIAL KNOWLEDGE [EPIC] You add additional maneuvers to your repertoire. . Prerequisite: Ability to initiate 9th-level maneuvers. . Benefit: You learn two new martial maneuvers or one new martial stance of any level. This feat does not grant any additional readied or granted maneuvers. . Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. MARTIAL REFLEXES [EPIC] You can initiate counters with incredible speed. . Prerequisites: Dex 21, Combat Reflexes, five martial counters from any discipline. . Benefits: Once per round, when the conditions for one of your counters are met, you can activate it as an attack of opportunity rather than as an immediate action. The counter is expended normally. . Special: Blade scholars gain this feat for free at 20th level. SETTING SUN MASTERY [EPIC, TACTICAL] You have learned the greatest secrets of the Setting Sun discipline. SHADOW HAND MASTERY [EPIC, TACTICAL] You have learned the greatest secrets of the Shadow Hand discipline. STONE DRAGON MASTERY [EPIC, TACTICAL] You have learned the greatest secrets of the Stone Dragon discipline. TIGER CLAW MASTERY [EPIC, TACTICAL] You have learned the greatest secrets of the Tiger Claw discipline. WHITE RAVEN MASTERY [EPIC, TACTICAL] You have learned the greatest secrets of the White Raven discipline.
NoldorForce 05-20-07, 12:53 AM	Looks interesting. However: -Shouldn't Extra Readied Maneuver grant two extra maneuvers, considering that it's swordsage-exclusive and that the non-epic version does the same thing? Either that, or some ability to apply it to other martial adepts, seems appropriate. Hmm...perhaps combining the two might work? Swordsages get two, everyone else gets one? -Considering that some of these feats are meant to be general-use...why do they have a high Wisdom requirement? Only one class out of three has class abilities that use that ability score. (Psionic Meditation has a Wisdom requirement, but it's only 13...) -What does "[X] martial [Y's] from any discipline" mean? Do they all have to be from the same discipline, or not?
Taeldrin Laesrash 05-20-07, 08:52 AM	Epic Stance should be "You can gain the benefits of an additional martial stance", since Warblades already can use two stances at 20th level.
Jaerom Darkwind 05-20-07, 02:56 PM	-Shouldn't Extra Readied Maneuver grant two extra maneuvers, considering that it's swordsage-exclusive and that the non-epic version does the same thing? Either that, or some ability to apply it to other martial adepts, seems appropriate. Hmm...perhaps combining the two might work? Swordsages get two, everyone else gets one?That was my initial thought, but then I noticed that the non-epic feat can only be selected once (unlike feats like, say, Extra Slot), as does Extra Granted Maneuver. So I thought that the epic feat would be balanced merely by removing the description. Of course, in light of recent discussion about how most epic feats are actually underpowered, perhaps you are right that both effects should be included in the same feat. -Considering that some of these feats are meant to be general-use...why do they have a high Wisdom requirement? Only one class out of three has class abilities that use that ability score. (Psionic Meditation has a Wisdom requirement, but it's only 13...)I just BSed most of the prereqs, I'll admit. Some of the effects seemed like they'd require an advanced mental faculty to pull off, so I added monkish Wis prereqs. To what do you think I should change them? -What does "[X] martial [Y's] from any discipline" mean? Do they all have to be from the same discipline, or not?No, they mean what they seem to mean: X maneuvers, and I don't care what disciplines they come from. The non-epic feats are also worded that way. It serves two purposes: it keeps these feats out of the hands of non-martial adepts, who at best will only have 3, and heavily-multiclassed characters, who might manage a good initiator level but will always be behind in the maneuvers known arena; it also differentiates these feats from the discipline-specific epic tactical feats I'm going to post soon (which will round off my vision of ToB at epic).
Jaerom Darkwind 05-20-07, 02:56 PM	Epic Stance should be "You can gain the benefits of an additional martial stance", since Warblades already can use two stances at 20th level.I hadn't intended epic stance to be useful to Warblades, actually.
NoldorForce 05-20-07, 05:17 PM	I just BSed most of the prereqs, I'll admit. Some of the effects seemed like they'd require an advanced mental faculty to pull off, so I added monkish Wis prereqs. To what do you think I should change them?As above, swordsages have certain abilities that depend on Wisdom. Similarly, warblades have certain abilities that depend on Intelligence. Finally, crusaders have a few abilities that depend on Charisma. Perhaps replacing the Wisdom requirements with "Mental ability score" or so forth might work?
Taeldrin Laesrash 05-20-07, 07:54 PM	I hadn't intended epic stance to be useful to Warblades, actually. Why? Also, shouldn't Martial Knowledge grant two additional stances? Otherwise, it's just like Martial Stance.
Jaerom Darkwind 05-21-07, 07:29 AM	Also, shouldn't Martial Knowledge grant two additional stances? Otherwise, it's just like Martial Stance.Martial Stance can only be selected three times.
Yue Ryong 05-21-07, 01:47 PM	Martial Stance can only be selected three times. Not so. Martial Stance is quite viable for as many stances as you wish to take. Martial Study is limited, but not Martial Stance. Also, why shouldn't an Epic Warblade be able to develop his skills to the point where he can benefit from more stances at once? Edit: Looking further at this, I can't help but feel that Warblades get a bit of a short end of the stick here. They can't ready additional maneuvers with Epic Readied Maneuver, despite needing it as much or more than Swordsages, they can't pick up Epic Stance to get better at things they can already do & they have immense trouble meeting the pre-reqs for Lightning Martial Strike, perhaps the one Epic Feat that no Martial Adept should have to do without.
Witch 05-21-07, 01:51 PM	Try adopting two stances in combat. Just try. Now, if that works, try adopting three.
Jandor1 05-21-07, 08:01 PM	try lighting your sword on fire WITH YOUR MIND. and if you do, let us know, because that would be freakin' awesome. also: my own epic feat to add to the mix: Lightning Chi (name can use some work ... ) Prerequisites: Dex 25, know at least four boosts or counters Benefit: you can use one additional swift action a round. This swift action may only be used for a counter or boost. Special: this feat may be taken more than once. Each time you take this feat beyond the first you gain an additional swift action to use for boosts or counters as normal. the point: speed is EVERYTHING at epic levels, and this feat will open up your very, very limited swift action in a round to more uses (such as using a Bolt Shirt or similar item to get next to a badguy, activating Raging Mongoose and then using Time Stands Still ... )
Jaerom Darkwind 05-21-07, 08:29 PM	Not so. Martial Stance is quite viable for as many stances as you wish to take. Martial Study is limited, but not Martial Stance. I misunderstood. My bad. Now that you bring it up, I can't figure out what balance concern I had in mind when I wrote that feat. IT should probably treat stances and other maneuvers equally. Also, why shouldn't an Epic Warblade be able to develop his skills to the point where he can benefit from more stances at once?Because he already did? Why can't an epic Barbarian benefit from Mighty Rage? Swordsages go through the same issues with Epic Boost. Edit: Looking further at this, I can't help but feel that Warblades get a bit of a short end of the stick here. They can't ready additional maneuvers with Epic Readied Maneuver, despite needing it as much or more than Swordsages,The non-epic feat is also only available to swordsages. Why? Because warblades can recover all of their maneuvers whenever they feel like it, so the number they prepare at a time isn't that important. Even with my new feats, I can't think of any way for a warblade to burn through her entire repertoire faster than she can recover them. they can't pick up Epic Stance to get better at things they can already doThe swordsage has similar issues. As do other classes. 3.5 generally has moved away from the "You get X--unless you already have X, in which case you get X^2" abilities. they have immense trouble meeting the pre-reqs for Lightning Martial Strike, perhaps the one Epic Feat that no Martial Adept should have to do without.There are no class-specific prereqs to that feat. In fact, swordsages are going to have more of a problem, considering the BAB requirement.
Jaerom Darkwind 05-21-07, 08:40 PM	Lightning Chi (name can use some work ... ) Prerequisites: Dex 25, know at least four boosts or counters Benefit: you can use one additional swift action a round. This swift action may only be used for a counter or boost. Special: this feat may be taken more than once. Each time you take this feat beyond the first you gain an additional swift action to use for boosts or counters as normal.No--bad Jandor. I specifically avoided anything like this feat. Multispell is the single most broken and abusive feat in all of D&D. We don't want anything like that soiling the carpets in our epic ToB-ness. Instead, I made feats like Martial Reflexes that simulate the same effect in some ways, but within the established system and without allowing as much room for the breaking of games.
Jandor1 05-24-07, 12:06 PM	... when did i become a dog? :P but good point; i looked at Martial Reflexes again and that should help a bit [you know, for those times you're hit with a fear aura/super melee attack/spell all at once]. And with the right build your damage output using Lightning Chi would be on spellcaster level, but for the most part without the AMF balance.
Jaerom Darkwind 05-24-07, 07:08 PM	I'm considering making Martial Reflexes a stackable feat, as well.
NoldorForce 05-26-07, 12:11 PM	The non-epic feat is also only available to swordsages. Why? Because warblades can recover all of their maneuvers whenever they feel like it, so the number they prepare at a time isn't that important. Even with my new feats, I can't think of any way for a warblade to burn through her entire repertoire faster than she can recover them.Having more options available at any one time is a good thing. Let's make certain analogies to spellcasting (excepting the Epic Spellcasting feat). Rapid Martial Strike, allowing non-epic martial adepts to use two strikes in a round, is akin to Quicken Spell. Lightning Martial Strike, allowing for additional strikes in a round (and requiring the above feat), is akin to Multispell. Though it's likely more balanced. Martial Reflexes, allowing a counter to be used on an AoO, is akin to Opportunity Spell. Martial Knowledge, granting more maneuvers or stances, is akin to Spell Knowledge. Extra Readied Maneuver, granting more options for use at any one time...is like Improved Spell Capacity. Except for the fact that only swordsages can take it. The thing is that even if you can't reach the point of refreshing (which crusaders likely WILL reach if they take Epic Granted Maneuver enough), having more potential things at any one time is probably good. At high epic, the swordsage might be able to ready twenty-five maneuvers at once. But the warblade and crusader will still be stuck at seven. Seem a bit disparate? Sure, the warblade and crusader have an easier way to refresh...but they're still stuck with a low count of options overall. There are no class-specific prereqs to that feat. In fact, swordsages are going to have more of a problem, considering the BAB requirement.I suspect that Yue Ryong was referring (as I did) to the Wisdom requirement.
Jaerom Darkwind 05-29-07, 07:32 PM	Crusaders have access to an equivalent feat, Epic Granted Maneuver. I'm contemplating your other comments.
NoldorForce 05-30-07, 03:23 AM	Crusaders have access to an equivalent feat, Epic Granted Maneuver. I'm contemplating your other comments.That puts more of their existing readied maneuvers in the desirable "granted" (automatically available) pool, but it doesn't grant more readied maneuvers on its own. That's why I'd made the comment on the Crusader eventually being able to auto-refresh if he takes the feat often enough. Unless that's the intent of the feat, in which case the wording needs changing. Alternately, you could simply incorporate its benefits into Epic Readied Maneuver. (This again assumes that Epic Granted Maneuver is supposed to work in this manner.)
JiCi 06-02-07, 06:50 AM	RAPID MARTIAL STRIKE [GENERAL] You can initiate martial strikes faster than normal. . Prerequisites: Dex 17, Wis 13, base attack bonus +16, five martial strikes from any discipline. . Benefit: You can initiate any two martial strikes that you have readied as a single full attack action. Neither strike can have an initiation time greater than 1 standard action. The strikes are initiated in any order you choose, and take effect consecutively. Both strikes you initiate are expended normally.Looks good. EPIC ADAPTIVE STYLE [EPIC] You can change your maneuvers and tactics to meet a new threat with amazing speed. . Prerequisites: Wis 21, initiator level 21st, Adaptive Style. . Benefits: You can change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a move action. If you're a crusader, your current granted maneuvers are lost and you gain new granted maneuvers as if you had just readied your maneuvers for the day. . Normal: You can change maneuvers only by spending a full-round action to do so. . Epic Classes: Crusader, Swordsage.You should include the warblade as well. EPIC BOOST [EPIC] You can use two boost maneuvers simultaneously. . Prerequisites: Wis 21, five boosts from any discipline. . Benefits: Whenever you initiate a boost maneuver, you can also initiate any other boost maneuver you know as a free action. Both boosts you initiate are expended normally. . Epic Classes: Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade.What happen if you're a 20th-level swordsage ? Does it allows you to initiate 3 boost at once ? EPIC GRANTED MANEUVER [EPIC] You have more control over which of your martial maneuvers are currently granted than other crusaders. . Prerequisites: Crusader level 21st. . Benefit: You begin each encounter with one additional readied maneuver granted. This feat also applies when you determine a new set of granted maneuvers after recovering expended maneuvers. . Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. . Epic Classes: Crusader.Looks good. EPIC READIED MANEUVER [EPIC] You find it easy to keep a large number of maneuvers ready for use. . Prerequisites: Swordsage level 21st. . Benefit: Increase the number of maneuvers you can ready for your swordsage levels by one. . Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. . Epic Classes: Swordsage.Looks good again. EPIC STANCE [EPIC] You can have multiple stances active simultaneously. . Prerequisites: Dex 23, base attack bonus +21, five martial stances from any discipline. . Benefits: You can gain the benefits of two different martial stances simultaneously. Each stance requires a separate swift action to initiate or change. . Epic Classes: Crusader, Swordsage.Hmmm... I'm not too sure about this one, since it grants the equivalent of the warblade's Dual Stance feature. Perhaps you could add that warblades who take this feat can initiate 3 stances at once. LIGHTNING MARTIAL STRIKE [EPIC] You can initiate martial strikes with incredible speed. . Prerequisites: Dex 25, Wis 19, base attack bonus +21, Rapid Martial Strike, nine maneuvers from any discipline. . Benefits: Once per round, you can initiate any martial strike with an initiation time no greater than 1 standard action as an attack action, as in a standard or full attack. You can still choose to make a normal full-attack action, or to mix martial strikes and standard attacks. Martial strikes that require an attack roll default to the bonus of the attack they replace, rather than your highest base attack bonus. . In addition, you can now initiate any two martial strikes as a single full-round action, as long as neither strike's initiation time is greater than 1 full-round. . All strikes you initiate are expended normally. . Special: You can gain this feat more than once. Each time, you can initiate one additional martial strike as an attack action. This does not allow you to make more attacks in a round than you would normally be capable of, though effects like haste may increase your normal maximum number of attacks. When you initiate multiple martial strikes in a full attack, they may be initiated in any order you choose, and take effect consecutively. . Epic Classes: Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade.I would increase the prerequisistes to avoid taking this feat multiples times. At least you cannot empty your repertory with Time Stands Still and Raging Mangoose, and then dish out 10 strikes at once. MARTIAL KNOWLEDGE [EPIC] You add additional maneuvers to your repertoire. . Prerequisite: Ability to initiate 9th-level maneuvers. . Benefit: You learn two new martial maneuvers or one new martial stance of any level. This feat does not grant any additional readied or granted maneuvers. . Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. . Epic Classes: Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade.Looks goods. MARTIAL REFLEXES [EPIC] You can initiate counters with incredible speed. . Prerequisites: Dex 21, Combat Reflexes, five martial counters from any discipline. . Benefits: Once per round, when the conditions for one of your counters are met, you can activate it as an attack of opportunity rather than as an immediate action. The counter is expended normally. . Epic Classes: Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade.Looks good. Your feats are great overall, but we could need a feat that allows to initiate 2 counters at once. (You have strikes, boosts and stances, but no counters)
Balthanon 06-05-07, 01:41 PM	RAPID MARTIAL STRIKE [GENERAL] You can initiate martial strikes faster than normal. . Prerequisites: Dex 17, Wis 13, base attack bonus +16, five martial strikes from any discipline. . Benefit: You can initiate any two martial strikes that you have readied as a single full attack action. Neither strike can have an initiation time greater than 1 standard action. The strikes are initiated in any order you choose, and take effect consecutively. Both strikes you initiate are expended normally. For this feat, I think you should limit it somehow so that martial adepts aren't throwing off two 9th level maneuvers a round pre-epic. Maybe make it four or five strikes from the same school and the ability to initiate two strikes of the same school. The spell equivalent has a spellcaster using a single spell of their normal level and one four levels lower. Granting a martial adept two of their most powerful attacks without any limits imposed whatsoever isn't going to be balanced. Also, I would drop Extra Granted Maneuver entirely frankly-- taking that feat twice means that a Crusader more or less has every single maneuver available to them at all times. That removes most of the flavor and balance associated with the crusader's recovery maneuver. Leave it at 2 maneuvers the crusader can't necessarily count on at the beginning of a battle and give them something else. (Hmm, maybe a bonus to their furious counterstrike ability based on the number of maneuvers they don't have granted?) My last comment is actually related to the Epic Stance/Boost etc... I think giving away the capstone ability of a class seems like a bit much. There isn't much directly to base it on in the core classes, but they don't give away feats that grant you Quivering Palm, Perfect Body, Elemental Wild Shape, or Mighty Rage (ok, the last one is a bad example, but the epic feat is a remenant of 3.0). There are some abilities that should be more or less reserved to the classes they come from-- you don't necessarily need to increase the number of boosts a swordsage can use at once or stances a warblade can enter, but I would say design the feats to enhance the differences between the martial adepts, not make them into homogeneous combat machines.
Jaerom Darkwind 12-08-07, 04:08 PM	updates
BillTheManiac 12-08-07, 06:02 PM	I am worried that the tactical feats use up actions but do not scale, making them become useless at high levels. You might want to make them infinitely extensible somehow.
Jaerom Darkwind 12-08-07, 08:46 PM	I am worried that the tactical feats use up actions but do not scale, making them become useless at high levels. You might want to make them infinitely extensible somehow.The idea behind those feats is for them to synergize with Lightning Martial Strike to create devastating full-attack actions. Add all of those up and you're going to need a hell of a lot of feats. It should keep you busy for a while.
NoldorForce 12-09-07, 12:43 AM	Ooh! Really, all of my concerns have either been addressed or made irrelevant. Nice job. It'll be interesting to see the other tactical feats. By the way, what's a Blade Scholar? Something from Dicefreaks?
Jaerom Darkwind 12-09-07, 12:53 AM	Blade Scholar
IceFractal 12-09-07, 03:57 PM	I feel the X Mastery feats should be either stronger, or not require as many manuevers in sequence. Except for Oblivion Strike, that one is fine. But let's take Iron Maelstrom for example. It requires four manuevers in sequence, counting the IM itself. Those four do the following: Strike two targets once, Strike all targets once, Strike all targets twice, Strike all targets three times. Total Effect: Strike all targets six times, and two targets a seventh time. Now if you you just used Adamantine Hurricane four times in sequence, you'd get the following: Strike all targets twice x4. Total Effect: Strike all targets eight times. And while you probably couldn't use AH four times in one round, you could use four equally powerful manuevers, without using a specific stance or taking a feat. Since the level of readied manuevers doesn't matter, there's no benefit to readying the lower-level ones to set this up - if anything, it's a disadvantage because they're useless outside of this sequence. So you end up with an Epic manuever sequence that's less potent than normal manuever use. This may need some tweaking, but my suggestion would be to make the sequence just Mithral Tornado -> Adamantine Tornado -> Iron Maelstrom, and either allow the user to enter Dancing Blade Form on the same round as using this sequence, or make Iron Maelstrom a bit more powerful. Same thing applies to the others, except for Oblivion Strike as mentioned. True Insightful Strike might be fine as well, with just a slight boost.
aelryinth 12-09-07, 05:04 PM	Epic Feat Stone in the Sky You carry the weight of the world, on land, sea or sky. Pre-Req: Two Stone Dragon Stances, Shards of Granite, Elder Mountain Hammer, Three other Stone Dragon Manuvers known. Benefit: You no longer need to be on the ground to initiate Stone Dragon manuvers. ==Aelryinth
NoldorForce 12-10-07, 09:32 AM	That needs a bit more oomph if it's to be an epic feat. By itself, the ability to use Stone Dragon without being on the ground merely removes one of the restrictions from it. Some of the maneuvers still aren't that great.
Kain_Darkwind 12-10-07, 12:57 PM	Epic Feat Stone in the Sky You carry the weight of the world, on land, sea or sky. Pre-Req: Two Stone Dragon Stances, Shards of Granite, Elder Mountain Hammer, Three other Stone Dragon Manuvers known. Benefit: You no longer need to be on the ground to initiate Stone Dragon manuvers. ==Aelryinth This does nothing, only robs the flavor from the school. There is no mechanical benefit or balance issue that insists Stone Dragon be performed while standing, it is largely a flavor issue. Sort of like alignment requirements for druid and cleric. If you want to allow Stone Dragon to be performed by Anime jumping, Superman flying swordsmen, go ahead. Don't make your players sack an epic feat to do it though.
BillTheManiac 12-10-07, 01:03 PM	This does nothing, only robs the flavor from the school. There is no mechanical benefit or balance issue that insists Stone Dragon be performed while standing, it is largely a flavor issue. Sort of like alignment requirements for druid and cleric. If you want to allow Stone Dragon to be performed by Anime jumping, Superman flying swordsmen, go ahead. Don't make your players sack an epic feat to do it though. Isn't all it really takes to accomplish that a flying rock of some kind? Perhaps a reflavored flying carpet. Epic feats > items.
aelryinth 12-10-07, 05:51 PM	You are forgetting that SD insists you be standing on the ground, not on a rock, and! That Stone Dragon manuvers have next to no requirements to them. The stand-on-ground IS their pre-req. If you don't like the epic feat, remove some of the pre-reqs from it. But effectively being able to pick up all the SD strikes and/or stances and use them without having that limitation (effectively, one feat = all the manuver prereqs of the other schools) seems like a decent investment for an Epic feat to me. I just got heavy on the pre-reqs because only a master of the Stone Dragon should be able to treat the air as if he were standing on solid stone. ===Aelryinth
Kain_Darkwind 12-10-07, 08:46 PM	Again, it's a flavor requirement, not a mechanical one. What possible crazy advantage do you get if you allow someone to not be standing when they execute these maneuvers? Your feat is no more impressive than one that allows a druid to be Lawful Evil.
NoldorForce 12-10-07, 11:39 PM	Your feat is no more impressive than one that allows a druid to be Lawful Evil.QFT.
rob_douglas 12-20-07, 12:51 AM	Given how important flying is in Epic, doesn't that mean all stone dragon maneuvers are effectively useless at epic without this feat that makes them useful when flying? ROB
Kain_Darkwind 12-20-07, 01:47 AM	Given how important flying is in Epic, doesn't that mean all stone dragon maneuvers are effectively useless at epic without this feat that makes them useful when flying? ROB Flying only seems to be important to PCs who are using it to avoid a landbound monster. (Typically in conjunction with ranged attacks) Once flying enters the mix, the cold war can be brought to the ground and conducted normally. Considering maneuvers are melee, flying isn't as big an issue as one might think.