Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bob Loblaw 03-23-07, 06:47 PM	I want to play an Ultimate Magus up to level 40. I know that I can have Wizard 4/Sorcerer1/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 5 by level 20. What I want is to continue the progression 10 more levels for Ultimate Magus. I will figure something out for the remaining 10 levels (maybe more Ultimate Magus). The problems I am running in to are: *Determining Caster Levels *Determining Spells per Day for each class. I will have Practiced Spellcaster for both Wizard and Sorcerer. Archmage will improve my Wizard levels. Someone please walk me through each level. The epic progression is rather simple to create except 11th level. For simplicity, every time he gains Arcane Spell Power, he gains only 1 level in his lowest caster level (I am sure I can convince my DM to change level 10 to keep it consistent). Thank you for any help you can give.
rob_douglas 03-23-07, 11:24 PM	Actually, I don't think you can, because you won't have 7th level spells by 15th level to be able to qualify for Archmage. When you do take Archmage, you should use 4 levels on Wizard and one on Sorcerer, to keep things even. I had all the levels of casting and spells you wanted worked up, but I left it at work - so I will try to remember to do this Monday (or you could remind me what they spell progression was - was it lowest at 1, 4, 7, both at all the others?) And Spell Power was added at 1, 4, 7, and 10 - is that right? I think that Spell Power should cap at +4, which is just enough to allow Practiced Spellcaster to make up the difference. ROB
Bob Loblaw 03-24-07, 01:20 AM	This is the progession I found from someone else that seems accurate. Lvl Class levels Wiz CL Sor CL 1 Wiz1 1 (1) 0 2 Wiz2 2 (2) 0 3 Wiz2/Sor1 2 (2) 5 (1) 4 Wiz3/Sor1 3 (3) 5 (1) 5 Wiz4/Sor1 4 (4) 5 (1) 6 Wiz4/Sor1/UM1 6 (5) 6 (1) 7 Wiz4/Sor1/UM2 7 (6) 7 (2) 8 Wiz4/Sor1/UM3 8 (7) 8 (3) 9 Wiz4/Sor1/UM4 10 (8) 9 (3) 10 Wiz4/Sor1/UM5 11 (9) 10 (4) 11 Wiz4/Sor1/UM6 12 (10) 11 (5) 12 Wiz4/Sor1/UM7 13 (10) 13 (6) 13 Wiz4/Sor1/UM8 14 (11) 14 (7) 14 Wiz4/Sor1/UM9 15 (12) 15 (8) 15 Wiz4/Sor1/UM10 17 (13) 17 (9) 16 Wiz5/Sor1/UM10 18 (14) 17 (9) 17 Wiz6/Sor1/UM10 19 (15) 17 (9) 18 Wiz7/Sor1/UM10 20 (16) 17 (9) 19 Wiz8/Sor1/UM10 21 (17) 17 (9) 20 Wiz9/Sor1/UM10 22 (18) 17 (9) I think by level 15, I can cast spells as a 13th level caster with a caster level of 17. This would be enough for 7th level spells, assuming I am reading this table correctly.
Keldorn2198 03-24-07, 11:33 PM	For epic proggression, here's what I would recommend: At each level, +1 caster level to spontaneous and prepared arcane casting classes, but not spell progression. At each even level, +1 spell progression to the class that is lowest level; choose one if both levels are equal. Bonus feat at level 23 and every 4th level thereafter. Select from the Wizard and Sorcerer lists of Epic Bonus feats. Augmented Casting continues to improve the maximum level of spell that can be affected (still limited to 1/2 class level.) Expanded Spell Knowledge also continues to improve, increasing the level of the spells that can be learned by 1 at every even level to a maximum of 9th level spells at class level 18. Why slower spell progression? The Ultimate Magus does a LOT at epic level. Once the Magus reaches the end of his spell progression for both classes, he is pretty much superior to most pure wizards or sorcerers. Slowing down the spell progression keeps him from maxing out in power for a few more levels.
Karsus the Mad 03-25-07, 08:54 AM	This is the progression I use and it seems to work ok. Putting a cap on arcane spell power would prolly be needed after 20th level. 11 +1 Both 12 Expanded Spell Knowledge (6th level or lower) +1 W 13 Arcane Spell Power +5 +1 S 14 Expanded Spell Knowledge (7th level or lower) +1 Both 15 Bonus Feat +1 W 16 Arcane Spell Power +6, Expanded Spell Knowledge (8th level or lower) +1 S 17 +1 Both 18 Expanded Spell Knowledge (9th level or lower) +1 W 19 Arcane Spell Power +7 +1 S 20 Bonus Feat +1 Both
Bob Loblaw 03-25-07, 09:57 PM	So, if I use the progession by Karsus the Mad (it looks a bit slower so I can probably convince my DM), does this look right? Lvl Class levels Wiz CL Sor CL 1 Wiz1 1 (1) 0 2 Wiz2 2 (2) 0 3 Wiz2/Sor1 2 (2) 5 (1) 4 Wiz3/Sor1 3 (3) 5 (1) 5 Wiz4/Sor1 4 (4) 5 (1) 6 Wiz4/Sor1/UM1 6 (5) 6 (1) 7 Wiz4/Sor1/UM2 7 (6) 7 (2) 8 Wiz4/Sor1/UM3 8 (7) 8 (3) 9 Wiz4/Sor1/UM4 10 (8) 9 (3) 10 Wiz4/Sor1/UM5 11 (9) 10 (4) 11 Wiz4/Sor1/UM6 12 (10) 11 (5) 12 Wiz4/Sor1/UM7 13 (10) 13 (6) 13 Wiz4/Sor1/UM8 14 (11) 14 (7) 14 Wiz4/Sor1/UM9 15 (12) 15 (8) 15 Wiz4/Sor1/UM10 17 (13) 17 (9) 16 Wiz4/Sor1/UM10/Arch1 18 (14) 17 (9) 17 Wiz4/Sor1/UM10/Arch2 19 (15) 17 (9) 18 Wiz4/Sor1/UM10/Arch3 20 (16) 17 (9) 19 Wiz4/Sor1/UM10/Arch4 21 (17) 17 (9) 20 Wiz4/Sor1/UM10/Arch5 22 (18) 17 (9) 21 Wiz4/Sor1/UM11/Arch5 23 (19) 18 (10)B 22 Wiz4/Sor1/UM12/Arch5 24 (20) 18 (10)W 23 Wiz4/Sor1/UM13/Arch5 25 (20) 20 (11)S+1 24 Wiz4/Sor1/UM14/Arch5 26 (20) 21 (12)B 25 Wiz4/Sor1/UM15/Arch5 27 (20) 21 (12)W 26 Wiz4/Sor1/UM16/Arch5 29 (20) 23 (13)S+1 27 Wiz4/Sor1/UM17/Arch5 30 (20) 24 (14)B 28 Wiz4/Sor1/UM18/Arch5 31 (20) 24 (14)W 29 Wiz4/Sor1/UM19/Arch5 32 (20) 26 (15)S+1 30 Wiz4/Sor1/UM20/Arch5 33 (20) 27 (16)B Keldorn, thanks for reminding me about needing to slow down their progression. I also, for some silly reason, completely forgot that the spell progression would not continue past 20th level for each class unless I take the appropriate feat.
Witch 03-26-07, 04:54 AM	This is the progression I use and it seems to work ok. Putting a cap on arcane spell power would prolly be needed after 20th level. Either a cap or slowing the acquisition, indeed.
Chanmanm8 03-26-07, 10:52 AM	For epic proggression, here's what I would recommend: At each level, +1 caster level to spontaneous and prepared arcane casting classes, but not spell progression. At each even level, +1 spell progression to the class that is lowest level; choose one if both levels are equal. Bonus feat at level 23 and every 4th level thereafter. Select from the Wizard and Sorcerer lists of Epic Bonus feats. Augmented Casting continues to improve the maximum level of spell that can be affected (still limited to 1/2 class level.) Expanded Spell Knowledge also continues to improve, increasing the level of the spells that can be learned by 1 at every even level to a maximum of 9th level spells at class level 18. Why slower spell progression? The Ultimate Magus does a LOT at epic level. Once the Magus reaches the end of his spell progression for both classes, he is pretty much superior to most pure wizards or sorcerers. Slowing down the spell progression keeps him from maxing out in power for a few more levels. i like this idea! thoughts about applying this to similar PrCs (cerebremancer, mystic theurge, psychic theurge, etc)???
rob_douglas 03-26-07, 03:35 PM	HI Sorry I was away from my books, and I wanted to get this right. You can't qualify for Archmage at Level 15 with Wiz4/Sor1/UM10. Arcane Spell Power increases your caster level, but not your spells per day level. And Practiced Spellcaster also won't work for the same reason, and once you have ASP +4, it will be a useless ability anyway. Prac Spellcast will have no effect when you reach 15th level, because your caster level will already equal your HD. Here is the progression I have: Ultimate Magus Progression Wizard Levels Sorcerer Levels Level Classes CL Spell/Day CL Spells/Day 1 W1 1 1 2 W2 2 2 3 W2/S1 2 2 1 1 4 W3/S1 3 3 1 1 5 W4/S1 4 4 1 1 6 W4/S1/UM1 5 4 3 2 Arcane Spell Power +1 7 W4/S1/UM2 6 5 4 3 8 W4/S1/UM3 7 6 5 4 9 W4/S1/UM4 8 6 7 5 ASP +2 10 W4/S1/UM5 9 7 8 6 11 W4/S1/UM6 10 8 9 7 12 W4/S1/UM7 11 8 11 8 ASP +3 13 W4/S1/UM8 12 9 12 9 14 W4/S1/UM9 13 10 13 10 15 W4/S1/UM10 15 11 15 11 ASP +4 So you still need to find other things to do with those 5 missing levels. Now if you do want to take Practiced Spellcaster for one of those classes, focusing on only on of the two will make that more viable as you go up. I also propose 2 things with regard to the Epic progression. That you redo the non-epic spellcasting progression, which means only your lowest level class at 11, 14, and 17, and that you cap ASP at +4. It is implied that they might have thought about it, since the text of Augement casting mentions class level with no cap, but ASP specifically mentions the cap. But I think that continuing the cap allows the Ultimate Magus to eclipse straight casters, and they shouldn't do that. I would also go with feats every 5 or 6 levels. Probably 5 since a bonus feat is part of the non-epic progression. So going on from 16th to 32nd, mixing in 5 levels of Archmage when it is available: 16 W5/S1/UM10 16 12 15 11 17 W6/S1/UM10 17 13 15 11 7th level spells 18 W6/S1/UM10/ArM1 17 13 16 12 high arcana 19 W6/S1/UM10/ArM2 17 13 17 13 high arcana 20 W6/S1/UM10/ArM3 17 13 18 14 high arcana 21 W6/S1/UM11/ArM3 18 14 18 14 22 W6/S1/UM12/ArM3 19 15 19 15 23 W6/S1/UM13/ArM3 20 16 20 16 24 W6/S1/UM14/ArM3 21 17 20 16 9th level spells 25 W6/S1/UM15/ArM3 22 18 21 17 bonus feat 26 W6/S1/UM16/ArM3 23 19 22 18 27 W6/S1/UM17/ArM3 23 19 23 19 28 W6/S1/UM18/ArM3 24 20 24 20 29 W6/S1/UM19/ArM3 25 20 25 20 30 W6/S1/UM19/ArM4 26 20 25 20 high arcana 31 W6/S1/UM19/ArM5 26 20 26 20 high arcana 32 W6/S1/UM20/ArM5 27 20 27 20 bonus feat On looking at that - I don't see that ASP has to be capped - if your DM wants to continue it. If you take Spell Power for Archmage, one could argue with the DM about which caster level it affects, or if it would affect both (I would not). A DM could also argue that you have to increase the spell progression only for a class that qualifies for Archmage (my progression above does not meet this requirement, as I increased the Sorcerer to keep it closer - before it had 7th level spells). You might be better off focusing the Archmage progression on Wizard anyway to get Epic Spellcasting ASAP, though even if you do, you won't have 9th level spells by 21st level, so the earliest you could get it is 24th level. ROB
metalhawk 03-26-07, 07:37 PM	So, if I use the progession by Karsus the Mad (it looks a bit slower so I can probably convince my DM), does this look right? Lvl Class levels Wiz CL Sor CL 1 Wiz1 1 (1) 0 2 Wiz2 2 (2) 0 3 Wiz2/Sor1 2 (2) 5 (1) 4 Wiz3/Sor1 3 (3) 5 (1) 5 Wiz4/Sor1 4 (4) 5 (1) 6 Wiz4/Sor1/UM1 6 (5) 6 (1) 7 Wiz4/Sor1/UM2 7 (6) 7 (2) 8 Wiz4/Sor1/UM3 8 (7) 8 (3) 9 Wiz4/Sor1/UM4 10 (8) 9 (3) 10 Wiz4/Sor1/UM5 11 (9) 10 (4) 11 Wiz4/Sor1/UM6 12 (10) 11 (5) 12 Wiz4/Sor1/UM7 13 (10) 13 (6) 13 Wiz4/Sor1/UM8 14 (11) 14 (7) 14 Wiz4/Sor1/UM9 15 (12) 15 (8) 15 Wiz4/Sor1/UM10 17 (13) 17 (9) 16 Wiz4/Sor1/UM10/Arch1 18 (14) 17 (9) 17 Wiz4/Sor1/UM10/Arch2 19 (15) 17 (9) 18 Wiz4/Sor1/UM10/Arch3 20 (16) 17 (9) 19 Wiz4/Sor1/UM10/Arch4 21 (17) 17 (9) 20 Wiz4/Sor1/UM10/Arch5 22 (18) 17 (9) 21 Wiz4/Sor1/UM11/Arch5 23 (19) 18 (10)B 22 Wiz4/Sor1/UM12/Arch5 24 (20) 18 (10)W 23 Wiz4/Sor1/UM13/Arch5 25 (20) 20 (11)S+1 24 Wiz4/Sor1/UM14/Arch5 26 (20) 21 (12)B 25 Wiz4/Sor1/UM15/Arch5 27 (20) 21 (12)W 26 Wiz4/Sor1/UM16/Arch5 29 (20) 23 (13)S+1 27 Wiz4/Sor1/UM17/Arch5 30 (20) 24 (14)B 28 Wiz4/Sor1/UM18/Arch5 31 (20) 24 (14)W 29 Wiz4/Sor1/UM19/Arch5 32 (20) 26 (15)S+1 30 Wiz4/Sor1/UM20/Arch5 33 (20) 27 (16)B Keldorn, thanks for reminding me about needing to slow down their progression. I also, for some silly reason, completely forgot that the spell progression would not continue past 20th level for each class unless I take the appropriate feat. I believe that the problem with this progression, and the difference between yours and Rob's, is that at levels 1, 4 and 7 of UM, you increase the level of the LOWER level of the two arcane classes, whereas in the above progression , you're adding to the level of the higher of the two every time (if I'm reading it right, for example at L 6, you increase the Wiz Level, but Sorc. stays at 1, whereas if I understand the class correctly Sorc should have gone up). I think the level progression of UM is intended to level up the lower of the two and keep them as close together as possible.
Bob Loblaw 03-26-07, 11:11 PM	The way I was understanding the progession (this is what someone else worked out so it's a bit hard to follow sometimes), is that the number in parentheses is the level to determine spells per day and the number before that is the caster level. I got the progression from this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=780018&page=2) post #56. I probably should have put that in my first post to make it easier to follow. I should be able to qualify for the archmage if I'm understanding the build. Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 15 ranks, Spellcraft 15 ranks. No problem. Feats: Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus in two schools of magic. No problem. Spells: Ability to cast 7th-level arcane spells, knowledge of 5th-level or higher spells from at least five schools. If I'm a 13th level wizard for determining the spells I know and caster level 17. I should have one 7th level spell and the 5th level spells will be simple to achieve.
metalhawk 03-27-07, 06:37 AM	Ahh. Well. If you carefully read that discussion they're arguing the wording to validate this progression, the thread is an argument as to whether this progression is legal. Quickly reading what they're saying, yes, in that case it does look like you COULD use this progression by the RAW. To summarize the point of the thread Bob got the progression from: UM says +1 level of the arcane class with the lowest leve at levels 1 4 and 7, as I've stated, However, that's in the class progression chart that it says "lowest level" but in the text description, it says, in one place, "with the lowest caster level". I believe that Wizard's position is that the text always overrules the chart, so one could presume the text is correct (however, I'm guessing that wasn't the intent of the class's designer) In Bob's progression, using Practiced Spellcaster, the *caster* levels of Sorc and Wiz are the same (and sometimes Sorc is higher), thus, by the RAW, you'd be allowed to increase Wiz each time, instead of being forced to choose Sorc. AND, they do have a reply from CustService saying that this build is correct..
rob_douglas 03-27-07, 02:44 PM	That's cheese - never IMC. Ok, given that interpretation - why are there even wizards at all. Just replace all wizards with this, since it is clearly and always a superior build. The fact that the designers can't keep 100 splat books in their heads to make sure they can't come up with all the legalese necessary to force you to use common sense isn't a great argument for doing something broken. Enjoy. EDIT: OK, I am calmer now. I do stay away from builds like that on the optimization boards because I don't feel they are in the spirit of the game, and I felt like I was "misled" into one of those discussions that I prefer to avoid. Whatever works for you. But there are a few errors with the build you linked to, though not ones that will change what you are working on. Practiced Spellcaster has a max caster level equal to your HD. So the benefit from it actually goes down as a result of Arcane Spell Power. Sorcerer caster levels should be 3 and 4 at 3rd and 4th, and should be equal to HD from 12th level on, not HD +2 as they have. ROB
Bob Loblaw 03-27-07, 05:20 PM	I was trying to avoid the argument on whether or not Practiced Spellcaster will work like this or not. My DM has already allowed it. Based on how it works, I do know that I can get quite a bit of benefit since I apply the benefits of Practiced Spellcaster before the benefits of the class (the FAQ states I get the most benefit out of PS possible). So, if we assume that the first 15-20 levels are correct, do the remaining levels look correct?
rob_douglas 03-27-07, 05:56 PM	Yep. I won't start another 11-page! argument on whether it should or not. Wow, that just kept going and going. I see that the FAQ is supporting the use of PS that way as well. So, then onto the 21+ level progression. No, I don't think it works. I guess I disagree with Karsus's progression, since it does not flow from the pre-epic progression - though it might be more balanced. You should repeat the UM progression, so at UM 11, 14, and 17, you would raise the lower caster level. After adding the 5 levels of Archmage, your Wizard levels will be clearly above your Sorcerer levels, and therefore you will only add Sorcerer levels there. Arcane Spell Power is capped at +4 by the RAW, and is not expressed as a function of class level, unlike other abilities, so it should stay capped.: 21 Wiz4/Sor1/UM11/Arch5 22 (18) 18 (10)S+1 22 Wiz4/Sor1/UM12/Arch5 23 (19) 19 (11)B 23 Wiz4/Sor1/UM13/Arch5 24 (20) 20 (12)B 24 Wiz4/Sor1/UM14/Arch5 25 (20) 21 (13)S+1 25 Wiz4/Sor1/UM15/Arch5 26 (20) 22 (14)B 26 Wiz4/Sor1/UM16/Arch5 27 (20) 23 (15)B 27 Wiz4/Sor1/UM17/Arch5 27 (20) 25 (16)S+1 28 Wiz4/Sor1/UM18/Arch5 28 (20) 26 (17)B 29 Wiz4/Sor1/UM19/Arch5 29 (20) 27 (18)B 30 Wiz4/Sor1/UM20/Arch5 30 (20) 28 (19)B 31 Wiz4/Sor1/UM21/Arch5 30 (20) 29 (20)S+1 If you continue spell power, you would get +1 more every 3 levels, so at 13th, 16th, and 19th. It would no longer match with the levels at which you failed to progress both classes, and it would continue the idea that you would always be a better wizard than someone who dedicated himself to being a wizard, except for Epic Bonus Feats. I would give them every 6 levels (16, 22) but this build could qualify to be limited to every 10, especially if you continue Arcane Spell Power. Expanded Spell Knowledge is half an epic feat in itself. ROB
rob_douglas 03-27-07, 11:30 PM	BTW - have you thought of Feats and Magic items for the UM? Staff Expertise from the Epic Insights is pretty good, since you can activate a staff twice a round with this build. Three times when Hasted. Master Staff is another nice option, since you have a lot of slots to burn, you could carry a bunch of staffs so you always have whatever spells you might need in an emergency available. You won't be able to keep up with ISC, since you won't get as many epic feats. But Improved Metamagic might be extra useful - depending on how you rule the interaction of that with Augmented Casting from UM. What High Arcana are you looking at? Spell Power would bump your caster level up even higher, making the need for Epic Spell Penetration moot. Mastery of Elements is good if you want some of your sorcerer slots for blasting - as is Mastery of Shaping. And Arcane Fire is written such that you could use your Sorcerer slots too. ROB
Bob Loblaw 03-28-07, 10:20 AM	I haven't really gone into too much detail on his feat selections yet. I want him to be a true master of arcane magic. I did settle on the final 10 levels, and those will be Mage of the Arcane Order. I may only take 7 levels and then use the final 3 more something else. I like the Master Staff feat, and have been looking at it quite a bit. I was also thinking of taking the staff feats in one of the Dragon Magazines to give me more options. If I don't go this route (and knowing me I'll look it over a dozen times and then do something different), I'll focus on metamagic. I think there are some very interesting things I can do with these options. As for the high arcana, I know I will be taking Mastery of Shaping and Mastery of Elements. I was thining of the Arcane fire because 14d6 raw magical energy is nice since there is no save. I was thinking of Spell Power twice only because my caster level may not be where I want it. Until I get the whole thing worked out, I don't know if I need it. I do think it would be better than taking an Epic Feat to accomplish the same thing.
rob_douglas 03-28-07, 11:31 PM	Spell power is a good option. If you go Mage of the Arcane Order, I don't think you need Master Staff, correct me if I am wrong, because they give you the same option - to be able to memorize different spells, and pull in limitted use ones as needed without pre-memorization. Take a look at Arcane Lord from Dragon 297. It needs some 3.5 tweaking, but it does offer some nice bonuses, especially with Sorcerer levels, since you can gain more known spells with it. ROB
Bob Loblaw 03-31-07, 12:13 PM	I had to find the article in question. My magazines aren't in the best order. Anyway, I found it. If I use this class, I will only have 3 levels of it. Would that be worth it? Should I instead drop Mage of the Arcane Order and take 10 levels?
rob_douglas 03-31-07, 11:40 PM	It depends how valuable the Spell Pool is in your world. In my game, Arcane Lord would deliver more bang for the buck. In general, I think an Epic PrC is superior to a non-epic one, but YMMV. ROB
Bob Loblaw 04-01-07, 04:09 AM	I was trying to be a true master of arcane magic. I think I may be able to reduce the levels of Ultimate Magus and increase the Arcane Lord to achieve the result I want. I may have so many spells that Mage of the Arcane Order is just a waste.