Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WizO_Negathael 12-17-05, 10:02 AM	OK, here is the Epic Vow of Poverty feat in its latest form, after a small amount of playtesting. I have highlighted any changes from the previous version in RED. My thanks goes out to all those who contributed in the original thread. :) Epic Vow of Poverty (Epic, Exalted) You have renewed your vow to forswear material possessions. Prerequisites: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, character level 21+. Benefit: You continue to gain bonuses to your Armour Class, attacks, ability scores and saving throws, as well as bonus feats, all depending on your character level. See the table below for details. Special: To fulfil your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use an ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) quarterstaff. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals). You may carry and use a spell component pouch. You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll or staff, or ride on your companion’s ebon fly. You may not, however, “borrow” a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a scroll, wand or staff. If you break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it. Epic Vow of Poverty Benefits AC Bonus (Su): An epic ascetic's exalted bonus to AC continues to increase by +1 for every 3 character levels beyond 18th (+11 at 21st level, +12 at 24th level, +13 at 27th level, and so forth). Resistance (Ex): An epic ascetic's resistance bonus to saving throws increases by +1 for every 4 character levels beyond 17th (+4 at 21st, +5 at 25th, +6 at 29th, and so forth). Bonus Feats: An epic ascetic gains a bonus feat every 2 levels over 20th (22nd, 24th, 26th, and so forth). These bonus feats must be selected from the following list, and the character must still meet all pre-requisites for the feats: Epic Ascetic Bonus Feats: Any exalted feat, plus Armour Skin*, Bonus Domain**, Damage Reduction*, Energy Resistance*, Epic Toughness*, Extended Life Span*, Fast Healing*, Great Charisma*, Great Constitution*, Great Dexterity*, Great Intelligence*, Great Smiting, Great Strength*, Great Wisdom*, Improved Alignment-Based Casting (good), Improved Aura of Courage, Improved Spell Resistance*, Music of the Gods, Penetrate Damage Reduction***, Perfect Health, Planar Turning, Positive Energy Aura, Spontaneous Domain Access**, Widen Aura of Courage. * This feat can be taken multiple times, its effects stack. ** This feat can be taken multiple times, applying to a new domain each time. *** This feat can be taken multiple times, applying to a different type of special material each time. Holy Wake (Ex): Once he attains 22nd level, an epic ascetic character does not need to sleep and is immune to all natural and magical sleep effects. An epic ascetic spellcaster still requires eight hours of rest before he can replenish his spells, usually spending the time in a meditative trance. Exalted Strike (Su): An epic ascetic's exalted strike ability continues to increase as he gains levels. The enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls increases by +1 for every 3 character levels beyond 20th. At 23rd level, any weapon the character wields effectively becomes a +6 weapon, and can overcome the damage reduction of a creature as though it were an epic weapon. At 26th level, the ascetic’s attacks are considered to have been made with a silver or cold iron weapon, whichever would be more beneficial. At 32nd level, any weapon the character wields is considered to have the holy ability, dealing extra damage to evil creatures. At 41st level, any weapon the character wields is considered to have the holy power ability. Ability Score Enhancement (Ex): An epic ascetic's ability score enhancements continue to increase beyond 20th level. At 23rd level, his existing bonuses increase by +2 and he gains a +2 bonus to a fifth ability score. At 27th level, he gains a +2 bonus to those five scores and a +2 bonus to a sixth ability score. The bonus for each ability score then increases by +2 for every 4 character levels he achieves. Damage Reduction (Su): At 24th level, the epic ascetic’s damage reduction improves to 10/epic and evil. For every 10 levels the ascetic gains beyond 24th, his damage reduction improves by 5 points (15/epic & evil at 34th, 20/epic & evil at 44th, etc.). Deflection (Su): An epic ascetic's deflection bonus to AC increases by +1 at 24th level, and every 6 levels thereafter. Inherent Bonus (Ex): Upon reaching 24th level, an epic ascetic gains a +1 inherent bonus to all of his ability scores. This bonus increases by +1 for every 2 levels the ascetic achieves beyond 24th (+2 at 26th level, +3 at 28th level, +4 at 30th level, to a maximum of +5 at 32nd level). Natural Armour (Ex): An epic ascetic's natural armour bonus to AC increases by +1 for every 8 character levels beyond 16th (24th, 32nd, 40th, and so forth). Holy Aura (Su): An epic ascetic of 25th level and above is surrounded at all times by the effects of the holy aura spell. This aura provides all of the usual benefits of the spell to any good creature within 20 feet of the ascetic. Energy Resistance (Ex): At 28th level, an epic ascetic's energy resistance increases to 30. Beginning at 35th level, an epic ascetic chooses one energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire or sonic). The epic ascetic is now immune to that energy type. An epic ascetic chooses another energy type for every 5 levels beyond 35th (40th, 45th, 50th and 55th). Timeless Body (Ex): Upon attaining 29th level, an epic ascetic no longer takes penalties to his ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that he has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the ascetic still dies of old age when his time is up. Fast Healing (Ex): Upon reaching 32nd level, an epic ascetic’s regeneration ability improves. He gains the fast healing ability, healing an amount of damage per round equal to (ascetic’s level -5)/5, rounded down. Swiftness (Su): Upon reaching 36th level, the epic ascetic’s speed doubles (this does not stack with any magical or supernatural enhancements to speed) and he gains the evasion ability (as the monk class feature). He also gains a +20 competence bonus on Balance, Climb, Jump and Tumble checks. Three times per day, he can act as though under the effects of a haste spell for 20 rounds. Tongues (Ex): At 39th level, an epic ascetic can communicate with any creature, as though under the effects of a tongues spell. Divine Ascension (Ex): Upon reaching 40th level, the ascetic is rewarded with a small measure of divine power for his faith and endurance. He gains a divine rank of 0, which grants him the following benefits: * His hit points are increased to the maximum possible for his Hit Dice. * His base land speed increases to 60 feet (50 feet if he is Small) * His deflection bonus to AC is increased by his Charisma bonus. * He is rendered immune to polymorph, petrification and any other effect that alters his form (though he may forgo this immunity at his option). * He is no longer subject to energy drain, ability drain, ability damage or mind-affecting effects. * He gains spell resistance 32, or his existing spell resistance increases by 5. Aura of Menace (Su): Beginning at 43rd level, a righteous aura surrounds the epic ascetic when he is in combat or angry. Any hostile creatures within a 20-foot radius of the ascetic must succeed on a Will save to resist its effects. The save DC is equal to 12 + half the ascetic’s character level + the ascetic’s Charisma modifier. Those who fail take a penalty on attacks, AC and saves equal to (ascetic’s level)/5, rounded down. This penalty lasts for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the ascetic. A creature that has successfully resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by the ascetic’s aura for 24 hours. Special Ability: Upon reaching 45th level, and every 5 levels thereafter, the epic ascetic chooses one ability from the following list. Exalted Banestrike (Su) – Any weapon the ascetic wields (including natural weapons or unarmed strikes) deals grievous damage to undead and evil outsiders. Against such foes, the ascetic’s attacks deal an extra 4d6 points of damage. Exalted Dodge (Ex) – When struck by an opponent the ascetic has designated as the target of his Dodge feat, he may make a Reflex save (DC 10 + damage dealt) to negate all damage from the attack. Exalted Druid (Su) – While in wild shape, the ascetic gains all the extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the creature whose form he adopts. In addition, the ascetic can assume the form of magical beasts. Exalted Evasion (Su) – Any physical attack or individually targeted spell directed at the ascetic has a 20% miss chance. Area effects that include the ascetic have a similar chance to be ineffective. If an attack overcomes the miss chance, the ascetic still gets the benefit of a saving throw (if applicable). Exalted Monk (Su) – The ascetic’s unarmed strikes are treated as slashing weapons with the keen, lawful and vorpal qualities. The ascetic can choose to deal bludgeoning damage instead of slashing damage, but the vorpal quality does not apply to the attack. In addition, the ascetic’s unarmed damage increases by one die step. Exalted Paladin (Su) – The ascetic’s aura of courage grants a +8 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects and extends to all allies within 100 feet. In addition, the ascetic can smite evil an additional three times per day, and gets an extra three points of damage per class level on a successful smite. Exalted Radiance (Su) – The ascetic automatically dispels any darkness effect that comes into contact with his Nimbus of Light. In addition, undead within the brightly lit area of the Nimbus take an additional 2d8 points of holy damage each round with no save. Exalted Sight (Su) – The ascetic is under the constant effects of a greater arcane sight spell. Exalted Warrior (Ex) – The ascetic's base attack bonus increases to +20/+15/+10/+5. This increase is applied before Epic modifiers. Exalted Weapon Mastery (Ex) – When striking with a simple or natural weapon, the ascetic gains the benefits of the Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialisation and Improved Critical feats. I welcome constructive comments and feedback on the changes, however, this thread is for the discussion of additional Special Abilities that can be added to the list. From the previous thread we have the following to consider: Call the Ascetic (Su) Once per day the ascetic character can call Pistis Sophia The Ascetic, she help the ascetic character for 5 hours, she arrive 2d6 Min. after she is called, if the ascetic character is dead by then (for some reason, monsters, traps etc.), there happen something special, she begins to search after those who killed the ascetic, and when she finds them, and fight them, then after 1d6 rounds the least champion of celestia arrive, and after that have arrived, then 1d6 rounds after the second least champion of celestia arrive, this continue untill every champion of celestia has arrived. Except one: the watcher, he shall watch over the layers they have leaved behind, untill they comes back. When they are done with those who killed the ascetic, they take home to their layer of celestia again. Maybe it should be Min. per ascetic character level/5 or maybe even rounds per ascetic level/5, but in this kind of case i think he/she could divide the time out to several times per day. Exalted Resurrection (Su) Once per month the ascetic character is brought back to life as though by a true resurrection spell. Exalted Grace (Ex) The Ascetic's pre-Epic base save bonuses increase to Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +12. Greater Exalted Grace (Ex or Su?) The Ascetic may add his Charisma modifier as a Sacred bonus to saving throws. Prerequisite: Exalted Grace. Spell-like Ability The Ascetic gains a spell-like ability. He may choose any 0-3rd level spell to be usable at will, any 4th-6th level spell usable 3/day, or any 7th-9th level spell usable 1/day. The spell chosen may not have the Evil descriptor, and gains the Good descriptor in addition to any it may already possess. You may select a spell modified by a metamagic feat, but the spell's adjusted level is used for determining daily uses (spells whose adjusted level is over 9th may be used 1/week), and the total metamagic adjustment of all spell-like abilities may never be more than the Ascetic's Charisma modifier. You may not select spells using Heighten, Fortify, or similar metamagics. A spell-like ability may be seleced multiple times to gain additional uses. The ability's caster level is equal to the Ascetic's HD, and its save DC is Charisma based. If Wish, Limited Wish, or Miracle is selected, the XP cost must be payed in full for each use. Exalted Magic (Ex or Su?) Any damaging spell the Ascetic casts is treated as Purifed and Consecrated, without increasing the casting time or using a higher-level spell slot. In addition, he recieves a +2 bonus to overcome the spell resistance of evil creatures; this stacks with Spell Penetration and similar effects. The benefits of this power do not apply to any Spell-like or Supernatural abilities the Ascetic may possess. Epic Exalted Companion (Ex) The Ascetic's familiar, animal companion, or special mount gains the Half-Celestial template, and recieves Epic Planar Creature and Legendary Planar Creature as bonus feats (both found here). (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=158114) If the Ascetic has more than one of these creatures (for example, a multiclass Wizard/Druid, with both a familiar and an animal companion), he must select only one to recieve the benefit (though he can select this ability again to grant it to another). Exalted Cohort (Ex) A powerful creature of good, such as a Celestial, high-level Paladin, or metallic dragon, pledges itself to the Ascetic's service. The creature's exact level of power is determined by the Ascetic's Leadership score, as defined under the Leadership and Epic Leadership feats, with the exception that its effective level is considered three lower than normal (for Leadership purposes only). The Ascetic does not attract followers by selecting this ability. The cohort gained thus is in addition to any he may already have by virtue of taking the aforementioned feats. Exalted Lifespark (Su?) You are constantly under the effects of Deathward. Additionally, you may Turn Undead, as a Cleric of 1/2 your level, a number of times each day equal to your Charisma modifier. If you can already Turn Undead, you Turn as if you were 5 levels higher in the class that granted the ability, and you recieve Extra Turning as a bonus feat. Improved Exalted Strike (Su) You may select a number of weapon enhancements, whose total "plus value" cannot exceed your Charisma modifier, to be applied to any weapon you wield, including natural weapons and unarmed strikes. You need not spend the entire amount at once, and may select new enhancements if your Charisma permanantly increases in the future. Once chosen, these enhancements cannot be changed; this ability cannot be taken more than once. Note that selecting Holy or Holy Power would be redundant. Example: an Ascetic with 30 Cha (+10 modifier) could choose to make his weapons (and fists, claws, etc.) Speed (+4), Brilliant Energy (+4), and Flaming Burst (+2). If his Charisma later permanantly increases to 32, he could add the Spell-storing property, as well. So, what do we think of these? What else can we come up with? I look forward to hearing your thoughts. :)
Bartmanhomer 12-17-05, 10:43 AM	COOL MAN! :eek:
WarDragon 12-20-05, 11:48 PM	As the creator of... well, most of the proposed new ones, I think that the two "Exalted Graces" should be merged into a single, Supernatural ability. A +6 to one or two saves at this level isn't quite the equal of +5 - 10 attack, and another 1-2 attacks, to boot.
Keldorn2198 12-22-05, 08:56 PM	My suggestions as follows. Please read the whole thing before forming an opinion, as the changes are suggested as a whole, rather than individual alteration. 1. Exalted Strike: Leave Exalted Strike as only an enhancement bonus to attacks, removing the higher-level abilities such as the strike counting as Cold Iron and Silver and the Holy and Holy Power. Why: First, all of these benefits except Holy Power can be achieved through feats long before they are gained as features of the Exalted Strike (i.e. Holy Ki Strike, Holy Strike, Penetrate Damage Resistance). Warrior-types will gain the benefits earlier by spending feats, and lose out at higher levels when they get redundant abilities. 2. Remove the following special abilities from fixed progression: Holy Aura, Timeless Body, Swiftness, Tongues, Aura of Menace. 3. Alter the 45th level Special Ability to start at level 25 and every 4 levels thereafter. Add to the list the abilities from suggestion #2. Also add the "Holy Power Strike" ability (grants an attack that can benefit from Exalted Strike the Holy Power weapon ability). Reason: It seems to me that many of the fixed abilities are only suitable to certain VoP builds, and are either redundant or not particularly useful to many VoP characters. This proposed alteration gives Asthetics more versatility in their advancement. Some people will probably argue that this change makes the VoP more powerful. But as you have pointed out, an Epic VoP character quickly falls behind when compared to normal PCs with access to their full allotment of wealth and magic items. The versatility that this option gives asthetics should help close the gap. ________________________________________ _________________________ New Special Ability: Improved Exalted Armor This ability allows the asthetic to improve his exalted armor to a total bonus (or gp equivalent) equal to his Cha modifier. When calculating the cost of "+" enchantments, add all "+" bonuses together to arrive at the cost. For example, an asthetic with an Cha of 30 (+10) can have total modifiers to his Exalted Armor of no more than 100,000 gp. He could have Light Fortification (+1), Ghost Touch (+3), and Invulnerability (+3), totaling +7, or 49,000 gp. He could then add Slick (3750 gp) and Fire Resistance, Improved (42,500 gp) for a total of 95,250 gp worth of enchanments. He could further improve the Exalted Armor with enchanments worth no more than 4,750gp. If an asthetic's Cha bonus increases, he can increase the enchantments on his Exalted Armor, but all enchantments are permanent once chosen unless the ability is chosen a second time, in which case he can make a one-time alteration to the enchantments. This ability can be chosen twice. Selecting it the second time allows the asthetic to add Epic armor enchantments as though they cost 1/10 their market value, and allows him to rearange his original enchantments once. Adding enchanments to Exalted Armor costs no XP or GP, but requires the asthetic spend an amount of time in meditation equal to 1/1000 of the enchantments' total gp cost. When he takes the feat a second time, he must spend time in meditation as though he were starting from scratch.
Leap_UK 12-26-05, 04:53 PM	A vow of poverty is something most druids take as a matter of course; its seperating your self off from the commercial world (note: commercial and not "material"). For this reason, weapons that are simple cheap tools should be included in its "allowance", eg: Club, Small Hammer, Handaxe, Knife, Spear, shortbow, Kama.
Bartmanhomer 12-28-05, 01:16 PM	I'll give this thread a 5! :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:
WarDragon 12-30-05, 07:30 PM	Leap_UK: The base feat in BoED allows a single simple weapon. While I'm not sure why Wiz_O_Negathael chose to narrow that further, he was within his rights to do so. After all, the entire point of this feat is that you're rewarded for doing something very, very dificult.
Leap_UK 01-01-06, 08:09 AM	Its hardly difficult considering the sheer kick ass abilities you get in return for it :)
klode_me 01-04-06, 01:59 PM	Call the Ascetic (Su) Once per day, as a free action, the ascetic character can call Pistis Sophia The Ascetic, she help the ascetic character for 5 hours, she arrive 2d6 Min. after she is called, if the ascetic character is dead by then (for some reason, monsters, traps etc.), there happen something special, she begins to search after those who killed the ascetic, and when she finds them, and fight them, then after 1d6 rounds the least champion of celestia arrive, and after that have arrived, then 1d6 rounds after the second least champion of celestia arrive, this continue untill every champion of celestia has arrived. Except one: the watcher, he shall watch over the layers they have leaved behind, untill they comes back. When they are done with those who killed the ascetic, they take home to their layer of celestia again. Maybe it should be Min. per ascetic character level/5 or maybe even rounds per ascetic level/5, but in this kind of case i think he/she could divide the time out to several times per day. Most ascetics use this ability right before they die, because then they know that they will be revenged. BTW. DMs can change the time as they please, it is just that at level 45 or higher Pistis Sophia is like a minion for you. you could even make it usable 1/week, 1/month or even only 1/year. though notice that i mentioned above.
Neodymium 01-04-06, 03:02 PM	Leap_UK: The base feat in BoED allows a single simple weapon. While I'm not sure why Wiz_O_Negathael chose to narrow that further, he was within his rights to do so. After all, the entire point of this feat is that you're rewarded for doing something very, very dificult. actually the base feat puts no limit on the quantity of simple weapons. just that they not be masterwork or magical.
Talmar 03-13-06, 09:20 AM	Here's my suggestions. New Special Ability... ------------------------ Exalted Warlock The Warlocks Eldritch Blast ability is treated as Purified and Consecrated. In addition, he receives a +2 bonus to overcome the spell resistance of evil creatures; this stacks with Spell Penetration and similar effects. ------------------------ I agree with lowering the level at which Special Abilities are received. Lowering the level will allow for more customized characters. More uniqueness among the rare few that walk this path. I would lower the level to 30th though and then a new Ability every 5th level. I would remove Holy Aura and make it a special ability called Exalted Aura. For Timeless Body, up the level received from 29th level to 39th level. Swiftness is too much for one ability/feature. I'd drop the competence bonus and haste bonus. Receive Tongues at 38th level. I would remove Aura of Menace and make it a special ability called Exalted Menace.
WarDragon 03-20-06, 01:20 AM	I have issues with Call the Ascetic. Not because it's too powerful, the BoED stats for the "Celestial Paragons" are a joke. I have a bone to pick with it thematically; being able to drag not just one, but potentially six of the rulers of Heaven to your side for five hours out of every 24 seems unspeakably wrong to me, no matter how high level you may be.
Malakai_Demonos 03-20-06, 02:45 AM	I agree with WarDragon. I would change it to allow a "Celestial Paragon" to come and save the character if they are close to death. I don't know, like below a tenth of their maxium health. In my world, I use modified versions of Dice-Freaks' rulers of hell and my own modified versions of the Celestial Hebdomad. ( I can't wait for Dice-Freaks' version of those guys ) So this would be a powerful ability. However, at epic levels, the WoTC Celestial Paragons, the Dukes of Hell, and the Demon Princes are woefully weak.
Monkeygod 03-21-06, 08:18 AM	yea that call ability is rather over-powered, even if the stats for the Paragons arent. maybe instead you can call upon an Exalted Solar with class and HD = to ur character lvl?? or just allow it to be a more powerful version of the Heavenly Host spell.
klode_me 03-21-06, 09:16 AM	yea that call ability is rather over-powered, even if the stats for the Paragons arent. maybe instead you can call upon an Exalted Solar with class and HD = to ur character lvl?? or just allow it to be a more powerful version of the Heavenly Host spell. Well you can modify it as you please it was just an idea(though I knew it was too powerful).
Talmar 03-23-06, 09:15 AM	Or maybe call upon a Saint. A being of your devotion that has attained Sainthood.
Retiarius 04-03-06, 08:49 AM	Since I have a character that will shortly be considering a feat such as this, I'd like to contribute a few notes on this feat as it currently stands. If some of this doesn't sound constructive, my apologies in advance. AC Bonus: No objection. The progression is clear from the original feat. Resistance: No objection. The progression is clear from the original feat. Bonus Feats: Still reviewing this, but the selection list seems a logical one. Holy Wake (Ex): Hate the name for two reasons: one, to me a wake in that context seems like a celebration after a funeral, and two, it's an extension of the Sustenance ability and the name probably should reflect that. I recommend something like Epic Sustanence. Also, only arcane spellcasters need eight hours of rest regardless of whether they sleep or not. Divine spellcasters do not. Exalted Strike (Ex): I agree with Keldorn2198 on this. Nothing in the original VoP feat suggests that the Exalted Strike should ever overcome substance-based damage reductions. Keep the Epic one (which is implied by the +6 anyway) and ditch the rest. Ability Score Enhancement (Ex): The progression is clear from the original feat, but--wow. Scary. Damage Reduction (Su): Seems OK, but I need to think on it more. Deflection (Su): No objection. The progression is clear from the original feat. Inherent Bonus (Ex): Oy. Ditch this. The ascetic is already getting ability score enhancements up the ventral orifice, this is adding insult to injury. If he wants an inherent bonus, he can wheedle a wizard or a god into giving him one. But he really doesn't need it on top of everything else. Natural Armor (Ex): No objection. The progression is clear from the original feat. Holy Aura (Su): Nah. Most characters that need this can already cast it. It's just piling on. Energy Resistance (Ex): Hmmm...not the logical progression of the ability, but maybe a reasonable one. Hmmm. Timeless Body (Ex): This is already a class ability of some of the base classes and several prestige classes. I see no need to repeat it here. Remember, they are getting bonus feats like crazy already. Fast Healing (Ex): Errrr...if they want this, maybe they should go for the saint template--if they haven't screwed up their chances for that already. It may be a natural extension of the ascetic regeneration ability, but that ability already increases with level anyway, albeit slowly. Swiftness (Su): There's already an epic feat that gives the equivalent of haste. Most abilities that improve movement are additive and not multipliers. Again, is this in keeping with the intent of the original feat? There were no speed enhancers there... Tongues (Ex): Again, probably not necessary, and Tongues is almost always, if not always, a supernatural ability (Su), not an extraordinary one. Divine Ascension (Ex?): I don't think that this should be automatically obtained, no matter how holy the character. It should be earned as part of a quest or something. Aura of Menace (Su): Eh. No. This belongs to a particular subtype of celestials, leave it there unless the character is of that subtype for some reason. Special Abilities: Dump all of these. Many of them can be gained from feats or they can be introduced as new feats. The ascetic is already getting a bonus feat every other level on top of the feats for character level every third and any class bonus feats, does he or she really need these on top of it to keep up with PCs without the Vow of Poverty? In fact, any of the abilities that aren't natural progressions of the original Vow of Poverty Feat might be better done as epic Exalted Feats that have the Vow of Poverty as a prerequisite, such as the Holy Wake ability. This will make the feat a cleaner one, as the progression is much more clear and natural.
Lokathor 04-05-06, 06:26 PM	Spell-like Ability The Ascetic gains a spell-like ability. He may choose any 0-3rd level spell to be usable at will, any 4th-6th level spell usable 3/day, or any 7th-9th level spell usable 1/day. The spell chosen may not have the Evil descriptor, and gains the Good descriptor in addition to any it may already possess. You may select a spell modified by a metamagic feat, but the spell's adjusted level is used for determining daily uses (spells whose adjusted level is over 9th may be used 1/week), and the total metamagic adjustment of all spell-like abilities may never be more than the Ascetic's Charisma modifier. You may not select spells using Heighten, Fortify, or similar metamagics. A spell-like ability may be seleced multiple times to gain additional uses. The ability's caster level is equal to the Ascetic's HD, and its save DC is Charisma based. If Wish, Limited Wish, or Miracle is selected, the XP cost must be payed in full for each use. If you keep in the special abilities (I agree that they should be converted into epic exalted feats), then you should change that last line to read: If any spell with an experience component is selected, the XP cost must be payed in full for each use. Just to keep all spells on equal footing. Otherwise, there's no reason not to just pick things like Gate and call in Solars (or other stronger celestials) each time for no EXP cost (1,000 is small, yes, but it adds up eventually, and it's slightly bad game design to leave those kinds of holes).
CelestialBarbarian 04-06-06, 03:40 AM	Rather than post a detailed analysis myself, let me just say that I actually agree completely on all points with Retiarius. :)
Retiarius 04-10-06, 10:57 PM	Rather than post a detailed analysis myself, let me just say that I actually agree completely on all points with Retiarius. :) What? You can't agree with me. Nobody agrees with me. To do so could warp the space-time continuum and allow the Far Realms to spill into our cosmos. :evillaugh
CelestialBarbarian 04-11-06, 12:22 AM	What? You can't agree with me. Nobody agrees with me. To do so could warp the space-time continuum and allow the Far Realms to spill into our cosmos. :evillaugh :rofl: Heh, if you lived my life, you're realize that the Far Realms long ago spilled into our cosmos. :D I really did agree with you on all points, including the way that "wake" sounded, and I got a kick out of your using "oy." I heard it a lot growing up but not much these days. Anyway, your analysis was good on all points, eschewing items not in keeping with the non-epic feat, like the special metals abilities or the ascending to quasi-deity status. Shucks, it takes a dragon a whole 12 levels of an epic prestige class that it needs a BAB of +30 to get before it can become a quasi-deity. No feat ought to allow that. Dance to the time warp again!
Retiarius 04-11-06, 05:40 PM	Ability Score Enhancement (Ex): An epic ascetic's ability score enhancements continue to increase beyond 20th level. At 23rd level, his existing bonuses increase by +2 and he gains a +2 bonus to a fifth ability score. At 27th level, he gains a +2 bonus to those five scores and a +2 bonus to a sixth ability score. The bonus for each ability score then increases by +2 for every 4 character levels he achieves. Another thought on this benefit: while the progression here is clear, remember that it's to make up for the lack of enhancement bonuses that a regular adventurer can get by plunking down 180,000 gold and getting +6 kickers to all his stats. By 20th level, a PC can have +36 in enhancement bonuses if he or she wants to spend the gold. With the Vow of Poverty, a PC will have +20 in total bonuses by 19th level. In some ways they are better than the rich PC's enhancement bonuses, since a character with a Vow of Poverty can still benefit from enhancement spells like bull's strength and bear's endurance, and the Vow's bonuses don't evaporate in an anti-magic field or Mordenkainen's disjunction. But extending the progression through an Epic Vow of Poverty Feat can lead to a serious balance problem. After +6, enhancement bonuses get way more expensive. Also, they top out at +12. So while the rich PC can get a total enhancement bonus of +12 six times or +72, the character with the Epic Vow of Poverty exceeds this at 39th level, when his total ability score bonuses jump from +66 to +78 (+18/+16/+14/+12/+10/+8). Anybody care to guess which combination of countries' gross domestic products would be necessary to pay for a character without the Epic Vow of Poverty to have +12 enhancement in all six ability scores? To be sure, there may be prestige classes with ability score enhancements that, if extended into epic prestige classes, might be just as goofy. (Consider a half-ogre epic War Hulk, for example. At what point does his Strength score allow him to carry the planet? Inquiring readers--no, inquiring is not right the word...silly! Silly readers want to know.) :P In any case, there's a case to be made for setting a limit on this progression or at least paring it back. For example, at 27th or 31st level, you could simply give the character with the Epic Vow of Poverty a +1 ability score boost to all six stats every four levels. This would halve the gain rate to a more reasonable rate. There's precedent for altering a progression within an epic class, so one might entend that precedent to an epic feat as well.
Mist of Shadows 04-11-06, 06:45 PM	Actually enchancement bonuses don't max out at 12. Those are just the stated bonuses tops. There are epic spells that can go past that. There are ways to grant an epic vow character inherient bonuses as well. For example if your wizard friend can cast an epic spell that grants them and it doesn't cost anything for him to do it. Nothing says he can't help you out. As for the enhancement there comes a point when you aren't going to be using the equipment anyways. When the wizard tosses his epic boost spell on you that does more then all of the magical items you could afford had you not taken the vow. But you took the vow a vow that gives bonuses other then enhancement. So you win the people that saved up money and bought things lose. (what with the whole stacking thing.) You shouldn't become a god for a feat. You shouldn't get half of what you get for the feat. it's got to be the most retarded feat (outside of able learner) that I can think of for giving you things. (sure it takes away your gold but in some games that's not enough. ) My favorite thing to do when I have to deal with the vop people is to use money making schemes to get a ahead of them. also offer them the stable they don't need a real room they gave that up. I'm sorry I just fail to see how an epic feat is needed when all you have all of the epic buff spells out there. And they stack with your funny bonuses much better then the rest of the party.
WarDragon 04-11-06, 09:20 PM	In some ways they are better than the rich PC's enhancement bonuses, since a character with a Vow of Poverty can still benefit from enhancement spells like bull's strength and bear's endurance, and the Vow's bonuses don't evaporate in an anti-magic field or Mordenkainen's disjunction. Incorrect. An enhancement bonus is an enhancement bonus; the ones from VoP are still the same type as those from the spells, so they don't stack. And, since all Exalted feats are Supernatural abilities, every single thing the Vow gives you does indeed go away in an anti-magic field (until the DvR 0 makes you immune to it, anyway).
Mist of Shadows 04-11-06, 10:25 PM	And you shouldn't ever get dr0 from a feat. the number of priests you should have to sacrivice for dr0 is a lot. Anyways I thought some of the bunuses weren't enhancement.
Yue Ryong 04-12-06, 08:52 AM	I'm of the opinion that DvR 0 is the only level of Diety-hood that should be handed out by leveling. The higher divine Ranks certainly shouldn't be, but DvR 0 represents the awakening of the potential as a diety rather than any actual worshipers, portfolio and domain abilities.
CelestialBarbarian 04-12-06, 12:17 PM	And you shouldn't ever get dr0 from a feat. the number of priests you should have to sacrivice for dr0 is a lot. I agree. A dragon has to eat its entire hoard and then take 12 levels of dragon ascendant to get a divine rank of zero. Right after Deities and Demigods came out I created an epic prestige class called the Godling that required 10 levels to gain a divine rank of zero, and even at that I was never 100% satisfied that the prestige class required enough sacrifice. Certainly a mere feat should never grant a divine rank.
bluemage55 04-12-06, 12:34 PM	I believe you are forgetting that vow of poverty is no "mere feat." It entails the sacrifice of all the wealth you own, present and future, and that's a much bigger sacrifice than the dragon ascendant prestige class.
CelestialBarbarian 04-12-06, 12:55 PM	I believe you are forgetting that vow of poverty is no "mere feat." It entails the sacrifice of all the wealth you own, present and future, and that's a much bigger sacrifice than the dragon ascendant prestige class. Sure, if you add a required 12 levels in some presitge class I might allow it. :D
bluemage55 04-12-06, 01:06 PM	Sure, if you add a required 12 levels in some presitge class I might allow it. :D Consider this: quasi-deity status is only worth around CR +3, and is not the end-all be-all ability that godhood usually implies. Even with Epic Vow of Poverty as currently written, I would still consider an ascetic to only be a subpar or decent character choice in terms of optimization, rather than a strong or overpowered one. VoP is really more of a roleplaying tool than anything else, and the point of Epic VoP is to prevent players from being hamstrung for making that choice.
lostone 04-12-06, 01:27 PM	Sure, if you add a required 12 levels in some presitge class I might allow it. :DWhat is the dragon giving up? Their horde...big deal. 99% of the treasure just sits there collecting dust and merely serves as ammo for a "mine's bigger than yours" contest should two dragons ever speak to each other. The person taking VoP is giving up a lot more, magic items and gear they would actually use if they had not taken the vow. There is no comparison. Besides, anyone achieving epic levels in vow of poverty has likely had VoP for 12 or more levels by the time they get DvR at 40th level. And they've had a chance to lose VoP that entire time by screwing up just a little bit. The dragon in question doesn't lose his entire horde unless he screws up BIG TIME by failing to set up proper defensive measures in his lair and preventing a group of adventurers from coming in and walking out with it entirely (that's a lot of bags of holding). If the dragon does lose his horde, he can rebuild it by raiding a few kingdoms. The VoP has to atone for their deeds (in their gods eyes? can't remember). Not to mention the dragon ascendant can then rebuild their horde if they desire, the VoP gains DvR 0 and still can't use any magic items. For the Dragon Ascendant giving up their horde is temporary, for the VoP it is forever. And then there is always the simple solution: If you don't like it, don't allow it in your game or change it. This isn't official material, just a fantastic homebrew set of rules that started as a good idea from one person and has had a lot of input from a lot of people. Rule zero.
Monkeygod 04-12-06, 03:52 PM	im confused: isnt VoP an Exalted feat?? if it is, doesnt that mean that not only must u give up all ur material possesions other than those listed, but u must also be a living exemplar of Good??
CelestialBarbarian 04-12-06, 04:31 PM	Consider this: quasi-deity status is only worth around CR +3, and is not the end-all be-all ability that godhood usually implies. Even with Epic Vow of Poverty as currently written, I would still consider an ascetic to only be a subpar or decent character choice in terms of optimization, rather than a strong or overpowered one. VoP is really more of a roleplaying tool than anything else, and the point of Epic VoP is to prevent players from being hamstrung for making that choice. Seems more like a +10 to me. For some character builds, like a monk, the Vow of Poverty is very powerful.
Retiarius 04-12-06, 06:09 PM	Incorrect. An enhancement bonus is an enhancement bonus; the ones from VoP are still the same type as those from the spells, so they don't stack. And, since all Exalted feats are Supernatural abilities, every single thing the Vow gives you does indeed go away in an anti-magic field (until the DvR 0 makes you immune to it, anyway). You are correct about them listing it as an enhancement bonus, score one for you. Normally, an enhancement bonus is strictly magical in nature. And it is true that exalted feats, in general, are supernatural abilities as mentioned on page 39 of The Book of Exalted Deeds. However, pages 29 and 30 lists the bonuses of the Vow of Poverty in detail, and several of those bonuses are clearly marked (Ex) and others (Su). The ability score enhancements, as well as the Endure Elements, Sustenance and Greater Sustenance, Resistance, Natural Armor, Mind Shielding, Energy Resistance, Freedom of Movement and Regeneration are all marked as extraordinary abilities and are therefore unaffected by anti-magic field. The rest are marked (Su) and are so affected. In this case, I think the specific text clearly supercedes the general rule.
Retiarius 04-12-06, 06:38 PM	Actually enchancement bonuses don't max out at 12. Those are just the stated bonuses tops. There are epic spells that can go past that. Oops. My bad. It's easy to get lazy and assume they top out. I was also made aware of the potential for epic level spells to do such a thing in my own epic level game, but that game has been on hiatus for months. You shouldn't become a god for a feat. You shouldn't get half of what you get for the feat. Actually, I did recommend removing a considerable part of the feat as stated at the beginning of the thread. It's got to be the most retarded feat (outside of able learner) that I can think of for giving you things. (sure it takes away your gold but in some games that's not enough.) My favorite thing to do when I have to deal with the vop people is to use money making schemes to get a ahead of them. also offer them the stable they don't need a real room they gave that up. Remember, as game master, you don't have to allow any exalted feats, or just some. Different games for different folks. You let VoP characters have stables? How generous. They don't even need that. I'm sorry I just fail to see how an epic feat is needed when all you have all of the epic buff spells out there. And they stack with your funny bonuses much better then the rest of the party. Assuming, of course, that you have an spellcaster that can handle epic spells. It takes epic level feats and a mountain of gold to research those things. Not every party may have a player inclined to play one.
Retiarius 04-12-06, 06:47 PM	Another reason for turning the other special abilities of the Vow of Poverty feat into exalted feats or epic exalted feats is that you get a "cleaner" feat that way. The Vow of Poverty Feat is already the most complex one in the game, the Epic Vow of Poverty feat shouldn't be trying to break that record. So not only is the feat more reasonable that way, it's more scalable. Note that I probably wouldn't include all of those special abilities even as feats, but others might. By doing it that way, it makes it easier for individual game masters to exclude the special abilities they don't want, they just add the feats that grant them to the excluded feats list for their games.
Mist of Shadows 04-12-06, 07:20 PM	I guess I just find it strange that something rewards you for giving up money. Sure I get the idea that you give up equipment. But really if some higher power read a god/goddess could give people that type of power. Why wouldn't they give it to their paladin's. Some one that serves them personally. I wouldn't waste my power on some idiot that gives up wealth. So yeah I have issues with the very idea of them getting things for giving up wealth. As for Retiarius's comment. Actually, I did recommend removing a considerable part of the feat as stated at the beginning of the thread. I think you hit it on the nail with the suggestions for the perks being other exalted feats and such things. We should be careful about giving them more then they diserve as well. For example the people that earn money worked for that gold slaying dragons or monsters of horrible power. Or stealing from merchants or crafting schemes or something. They went out of there way for some of that money. When you get power for just leveling. The people that take the vow get power for just leveling. They have to act good, which isn't a big deal. You take a feat soul of honor? or something like that and the dm has to tell you if you are about to do anything that would violate your alignment. I believe there are a few spells or magical items but I could be wrong. So you are getting things for nothing more then staying in your alignment and not worrying about carrying off all of the loot. That being said scalable is nice. How do you justify the nature of things to get more expensive? if over 10 levels you get a +10 to something such as ac. You are going to have more ac at the end of the scale then the guy that has to pay through the nose for the high end ac but it didn't cost you anything. What about a needing a new feat every 10 levels? So at level 21 you need a new feat and at level 31, 41 you need a new feat? So if you don't take the feat then you don't get the bonuses.
Retiarius 04-12-06, 08:51 PM	I guess I just find it strange that something rewards you for giving up money. Sure I get the idea that you give up equipment. But really if some higher power read a god/goddess could give people that type of power. Why wouldn't they give it to their paladin's. Some one that serves them personally. I wouldn't waste my power on some idiot that gives up wealth. So yeah I have issues with the very idea of them getting things for giving up wealth. A vow of poverty is a reflection of actual vows of poverty in the real world. In the real world, the spiritual benefits (like pretty much all spiritual benefits here) are intangible. Even in D&D, a character can take a vow of poverty (or any other vow) without actually taking the feat. The feat is to prevent the PC from essentially becoming useless to the party. Yes, it can be abused in certain ways--but pretty much any game with a complexity beyond that of chess can be. That's one reason why we have game masters. Yes, the bennies are considerable, but the responsibilities should be equally so, to the extent of the game master and other player's willingness to put up with them: giving extensively to those for whom poverty is not a choice, eschewing comfortable surroundings--being actively good, not just avoiding evil behavior or killing every evil critter that crosses your path. A game master should make a point of challenging a player's character to test their ability to keep a Vow feat of any kind. One way I keep honest with my ascetic monk character (the reason I got involved in this thread--the campaign is approaching epic) is that on my off time I have to write what he's doing while other players are learning new spells, buying equipment or property and such. After all, an exalted character can't just sit around and pray, they have to actively do good, even if it's not an adventure per se. So I end up writing "essays about what I did this summer". (Well, short stories, actually, but you get the idea.) This has the added benefit to the game master that she may find adventure hooks in the text. For example the people that earn money worked for that gold slaying dragons or monsters of horrible power. Or stealing from merchants or crafting schemes or something. They went out of there way for some of that money. When you get power for just leveling. The people that take the vow get power for just leveling. They have to act good, which isn't a big deal. You take a feat soul of honor? or something like that and the dm has to tell you if you are about to do anything that would violate your alignment. I believe there are a few spells or magical items but I could be wrong. As one player in my game noted, "At epic levels, gold is like water." It's not a question of being able to accrue the gold or its equivalent value, it's just a matter of the methods you will employ. That's why the epic magic items are so inflated in value in game terms. Time in game becomes more valuable than gold, since the market value sets the amount of time you have to spend to get the item made, even with the epic item creation feats. That being said scalable is nice. How do you justify the nature of things to get more expensive? if over 10 levels you get a +10 to something such as ac. You are going to have more ac at the end of the scale then the guy that has to pay through the nose for the high end ac but it didn't cost you anything. What about a needing a new feat every 10 levels? So at level 21 you need a new feat and at level 31, 41 you need a new feat? So if you don't take the feat then you don't get the bonuses. It's a thought, although if you go by the original "progression", it should be every twenty levels: a human (or strongheart halfling in FR, which my monk is not) can take Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty at 1st level and everyone else can at 3rd; the epic feat doesn't come into play until 21st level. I know that doesn't exactly fall into the prestige class guildline of repeating the pattern every ten levels, but this isn't a prestige class.
Mist of Shadows 04-12-06, 09:08 PM	I could see going with every 20 levels. Mostly the vow stuff just annoys me because until that book I didn't have a single banned feat class or magical item. Now I do and it bothers me, but the vows don't work in my game because no god/goddess is going to reward one of the players for taking a vow like that. And their are no forces and such things. But anyways back to the issue at hand, do you think just repeating the benifits be enough or two much for the vow of poverty?
WarDragon 04-12-06, 10:11 PM	I think the feat as Wiz_O Neg. has it is fine, balance wise. For normal Epic characters, take away their equipment, and they're useless against anything even approaching the proper CR; hell, they're useless against properly equipped non-Epic adventurers. Vow of Poverty has to make up for what they're losing, and that's what it does here. For example the people that earn money worked for that gold slaying dragons or monsters of horrible power. Or stealing from merchants or crafting schemes or something. They went out of there way for some of that money. When you get power for just leveling. The people that take the vow get power for just leveling. They have to act good, which isn't a big deal. You take a feat soul of honor? or something like that and the dm has to tell you if you are about to do anything that would violate your alignment. I believe there are a few spells or magical items but I could be wrong. So you are getting things for nothing more then staying in your alignment and not worrying about carrying off all of the loot. That's perhaps the most ignorant statement I've seen on this thread. An ascetic, especially an Epic one, has to work just as hard for his XP as other characters do for their gold; in most cases, doing the exact same things. You don't get XP just for sitting around being poor and holy. And they do indeed have to worry about carrying the loot; if they dont' take a share of whatever the party finds and give it to a worthy cause, they've broken the Vow.
Mist of Shadows 04-12-06, 11:02 PM	Only if they don't try. Sure they need to take their share and give it away. You have no idea the amount of party conflict that causes when we have to try to divide up magical items. Because they need their share. And like hell the rest of us are going to sell an item just because one of the people want to donate part of the gold. I didn't say they didn't have to work for their xp. I said they don't really care about gold. Sure they have to take a share of the gold but they don't care. For example taking a 100 gold or a 5 gold mission is the same for them as taking a 100,000,000 gold piece mission. To them they don't care all that much. (or at least they don't have too.) The rest of the party has to care because we need the gold to keep up with the guy that doesn't need gold. Sure they have to donate their share in fact it's more good for them to take the more good jobs rather then the ones that pay. It's not about them working harder or less hard it's that they don't have to care about the pay. They just have to care about the share they are getting. There is no set amount they have to donate just a share of the party treasure. (an even share but still just a share.) by the rules in a five person party getting paid 5 gold when the party gets paid 25 gold is fine with them. Same thing with getting paid 1000 if the party is paid 5000. But that's a large side issue. If you're so worried about being useless play a sorcerer or a singing bard. You don't need any equipment just hang out at the back of the party and blast things or sing for benifits. We don't give people that write I'm an idiot and want to kill red wizards on their forheads then walk into Thay more feats. We shouldn't give people that swear off money more goodies. There are lots of things you could do for a party without equipment and without handouts. I guess the part that bothers me is you're immune to mort's disjunction. There is no opps I made a mistake and give you a more powerful weapon by mistake or that item you have is causing too much hassle. You have you're benifits stripped and locked in a jail cell. Sure that's one of the few times you shine.
CelestialBarbarian 04-13-06, 12:21 AM	And then there is always the simple solution: If you don't like it, don't allow it in your game or change it. This isn't official material, just a fantastic homebrew set of rules that started as a good idea from one person and has had a lot of input from a lot of people. Rule zero. Actually I do like it,and I would allow an epic VoP if I currently had anyone using the the VoP in my campaign. The creator asked for feedback, and I was agreeing with the feedback of another person that gaining the benefits of a divine rank of zero goes well beyond extending the VoP to epic levels.
bluemage55 04-13-06, 02:08 AM	Mostly the vow stuff just annoys me because until that book I didn't have a single banned feat class or magical item. Now I do and it bothers me, but the vows don't work in my game because no god/goddess is going to reward one of the players for taking a vow like that. And their are no forces and such things. I believe you are overlooking the benefits that a vow of poverty holds for the powers of good in general. A +1 weapon can feed the average peasant family for a year. It might not be a "smart" thing to give up your wealth, but it isn't like the ascetic is throwing away their gold. Rather, they are using in a way that brings hope and sustenance to the world, a concept that clearly lives up to the concept of exalted good. VoP simply offers compensation for their true goodness in doing so. If a powerful servant of good gives up their wealth for the benefit of the world, then is it not appropriate for the forces of good to give them some measure of power so that they may continue doing good instead of being screwed without magic items?
CelestialBarbarian 04-13-06, 02:28 AM	I believe you are overlooking the benefits that a vow of poverty holds for the powers of good in general. A +1 weapon can feed the average peasant family for a year. It might not be a "smart" thing to give up your wealth, but it isn't like the ascetic is throwing away their gold. Rather, they are using in a way that brings hope and sustenance to the world, a concept that clearly lives up to the concept of exalted good. VoP simply offers compensation for their true goodness in doing so. If a powerful servant of good gives up their wealth for the benefit of the world, then is it not appropriate for the forces of good to give them some measure of power so that they may continue doing good instead of being screwed without magic items? Well said. It might also be that eschewing material things like wealth allows the person to achieve a higher spiritual state, which brings with iti powers than ordinary people can't achieve.
Mist of Shadows 04-13-06, 04:26 AM	You know sometimes I hate you blue... Originally Posted by bluemage55 I believe you are overlooking the benefits that a vow of poverty holds for the powers of good in general. A +1 weapon can feed the average peasant family for a year. It might not be a "smart" thing to give up your wealth, but it isn't like the ascetic is throwing away their gold. Rather, they are using in a way that brings hope and sustenance to the world, a concept that clearly lives up to the concept of exalted good. VoP simply offers compensation for their true goodness in doing so. If a powerful servant of good gives up their wealth for the benefit of the world, then is it not appropriate for the forces of good to give them some measure of power so that they may continue doing good instead of being screwed without magic items? I guess I have that annoying healing goddess that believes in helping others that would probably help out the vop guy. And well it's not like it's just once that he is bringing in gold, he is continually bringing it in which helps feed the poor for years.
CelestialBarbarian 04-13-06, 04:55 AM	You know sometimes I hate you blue... You mean he makes you blue? :D I guess I have that annoying healing goddess that believes in helping others that would probably help out the vop guy. And well it's not like it's just once that he is bringing in gold, he is continually bringing it in which helps feed the poor for years. Sounds like you're not a big fan of goodness. :D
Need_A_Life 04-13-06, 09:09 AM	First of all, this is D&D so having a vow of poverty should make you no weaker than your equipped counter-part. I find it pretty balanced, I'll suggest it to my DM... though I won't take it right away (preferring Vorpal Strike to Epic Vow of Poverty). About those who complains that it gives DvR 0 at level 45, give it a rest. So you get immunity to mind-affecting, fire resistance and DR/magic. Nice benefits, but at that level you're not likely to face an enemy who won't overcome these resistances.
bluemage55 04-13-06, 10:43 AM	About those who complains that it gives DvR 0 at level 45, give it a rest. So you get immunity to mind-affecting, fire resistance and DR/magic. Nice benefits, but at that level you're not likely to face an enemy who won't overcome these resistances. DvR 0 is nothing to scoff at. You neglected to mention that it also grants maximum hp, Cha to AC, increased speed, diverse (conditional) immunities, and immortality. I also believe people are leery of DvR 0 more because it entails divinity than for the power it offers.
Mist of Shadows 04-13-06, 12:08 PM	bluemage55 Quote: Originally Posted by Need_A_Life About those who complains that it gives DvR 0 at level 45, give it a rest. So you get immunity to mind-affecting, fire resistance and DR/magic. Nice benefits, but at that level you're not likely to face an enemy who won't overcome these resistances. DvR 0 is nothing to scoff at. You neglected to mention that it also grants maximum hp, Cha to AC, increased speed, diverse (conditional) immunities, and immortality. I also believe people are leery of DvR 0 more because it entails divinity than for the power it offers. Actually Blue hit it on the nose again with that last comment. It's not the powers I complain about, all of the powers are aquirable by various classes and prestige classes. I don't like the fact that they become a divine creature. Divinity shouldn't be something you earn. It should be granted by the gods. The problem is that in order to grant people the power of the divine it normaly reduces their power. (ie the proxy thing). I think that the paragon template (arguably more broken) would work if you spread it out over many levels. I have a lot less problems with a vop becoming a paragon of his race then I do him becoming a god. CelestialBarbarian Sounds like you're not a big fan of goodness. I'm not, the giving until it hurts mentality annoys me. Why should I give money that I worked for to junkies and smokers and useless people. If I give it to a church I have no idea what they would do with it. If I gave the food to hungry children at least I know my money wasn't being wasted. So no I'm not a fan of good. I'm a fan of inlightened self interest. Meaning that if I can help people and it doesn't cost me much I will. If I can voluntier my time at a food bank (which I do) I will. But I'm not going to give money to people that aren't worth giving money too. Beggers shouldn't be incuraged they should be offered a place to get cleaned up and find a job. But you shouldn't incurage them by giving them food or money.
Need_A_Life 04-13-06, 04:39 PM	Okay, I forgot about Cha to AC, that's fairly nice I admit. Immortality? I get that for +0 LA AND I get power points thrown into the deal by making myself an Elan. Now, if it had been invulnerability I could have understood bolding it. So okay, you're a god now. So what? In Manual of the Planes (IIRC) there is a description of a plane where gods meet to talk, it has one special condition for you to enter. You must have DvR 6 or higher to enter. So this guy will gain the ability to wait outside that portal for millenia without tiring or getting hungry, but he won't get that divine power everyone is talking about (in game, not in this thread). Divinity shouldn't be something you earn I think you and I would get along great, every other commoner must become a god in your campaigns. Apparently the gods give away divinity to people who ask nicely, whereas the people who have dedicated their lives to an ideal, sworn to uphold the great virtues and has done so for years, they had better just get in line? Epic characters are epic, they are not simply someone who thought, "I'll throw away my magical gadgets and go hand-to-hand with the dragon," if you actually read the Book of Exalted Deeds you'll see the definition of an exalted feat and the famous "Vow of XX" feats to be quite different, the character is swearing to the powerful forces of good to help others and simply asks the gods for the strength to enable him to do just that. Now, a guy who has dedicated his life to charity (read vow of poverty, chapter 2 (I believe) under "voluntary poverty") and is a paragon of good (likely he has the Saint template at this point) deserves to become infused with a mere fraction of divinity (something that should be roleplayed, probably swearing to serve another deity). There are already a prestige classes that lets you ascend to divinity! The Dragon Ascendant [Draconomicon] and at ECL 44 you can acheive DvR 0 [White dragon. LA2/Dragon HD30/Dragon Ascendant12], which it does one level before this feat would and you still get the wealth normal for your level by being a dragon ascendant. I think I sensed that you did not actually think that DvR 0 was broken as much as it was a flavor issue? If this is so, then how about suggesting a feature that would be equally useful to an level 45 character that in your opinion fits with (Epic) Vow of Poverty. I think that we should agree to disagree.
Mist of Shadows 04-13-06, 05:17 PM	you aren't swearing to a god, you are just swearing to the forces of good.... But yeah it's more a flavor issue. Now I happen to agree that as an epic character of good if you were worshipping a god/goddess that you would be on their list for giving you a fraction of their power. But that would be their choice, ie the dm's choice not because a class or feat promises that. Do I agree that you are doing things that would get you noticed and loved/hated by the gods sure. Do I like the idea of a prestige class (dragon assendent) or a feat (your epic feat) granting you godhood no. deserves to become infused with a mere fraction of divinity (something that should be roleplayed, probably swearing to serve another deity). I see no problem with that. You swear to a gods service you are a paragon on good and all that. They would most likely reward you for your efforts. To me that is an epic quest and flavor. Do I think that a prestige class should just give it no I don't. I think I sensed that you did not actually think that DvR 0 was broken as much as it was a flavor issue? If this is so, then how about suggesting a feature that would be equally useful to an level 45 character that in your opinion fits with (Epic) Vow of Poverty. I suggest using something like the paragon template. As you get more and more in tune with the cosmic center of goodness your mystical energy or what not makes you more and more pure or evoloves you towards the end point of your species. In other words start working towards the paragon template. Actually that's not a bad idea if you figured it out in such a way as to be spread over 20? or 30 levels? Without the la. I figure you get a little bit at each level. Until you finally turn into a more perfect creature. Leave divinity for the gods though please. I think that we should agree to disagree. Sure I can do that, it happens all the time. :) Though I am curious about your thoughts on using the paragon template rather then making them a god. I would toss in immortality as you want them to continue doing good works.
bluemage55 04-13-06, 09:33 PM	I think the paragon template would be a bit out of line with the concept of the asthetic. The saint template would make more sense, or perhaps the celestial or half-celestial template. This creates the issues, however, of characters that already have such a template. They would stand nothing to gain when the ability is recieved. I would advise the granting of some other abilities (or enhancements of existing ones) rather than a new template. My own recommendation is that the ascetic ascends into an astral deva instead, representing that his extreme purity has earned him a place among the heavens as a guardian of light (and specifically, as an angel that impoverished people can pray to in order to ask for help). This would entail giving the ascetic the angel subtype with all associated special qualities, as well as the body of an angel (although most characteristics remain unchanged, and they have their own distinct appearance rather than assuming a typical member of the race), and perhaps the ability to shapechange back into their original form.
CelestialBarbarian 04-13-06, 10:40 PM	I think the paragon template would be a bit out of line with the concept of the asthetic. The saint template would make more sense, or perhaps the celestial or half-celestial template. This creates the issues, however, of characters that already have such a template. They would stand nothing to gain when the ability is recieved. I would advise the granting of some other abilities (or enhancements of existing ones) rather than a new template. My own recommendation is that the ascetic ascends into an astral deva instead, representing that his extreme purity has earned him a place among the heavens as a guardian of light (and specifically, as an angel that impoverished people can pray to in order to ask for help). This would entail giving the ascetic the angel subtype with all associated special qualities, as well as the body of an angel (although most characteristics remain unchanged, and they have their own distinct appearance rather than assuming a typical member of the race), and perhaps the ability to shapechange back into their original form. A feat shouldn't allow you to ascend to anything. If you want to ascend, go through 10-12 levels of a prestige class. If you think that's no big deal, than try doing it. If you think that the benefits of being a quasi-deity are no big deal because you can get them all in other ways, then get them in other ways. The fact is that it's hard to get all those benefits, and it should be hard, because they're rather good. They shouldn't come on top of all the benefits you get from the VoP. You know it's funny, but I'm one of the ones who defended the VoP against detractors back in the days when Book of Exalted Deeds first premiered. I can't believe that I have to argue against anyone wanting to make an epic version even more relatively powerful.
Mist of Shadows 04-14-06, 01:29 AM	While the astral deva idea is better then the god idea, celestial is right it's still just a feat. Maybe everyone has been going about it wrong. Maybe there should be a prestige class instead of a feat. that sounds like a better deal to me. Any thoughts Celestial Barbarian?
CelestialBarbarian 04-14-06, 01:41 AM	While the astral deva idea is better then the god idea, celestial is right it's still just a feat. Maybe everyone has been going about it wrong. Maybe there should be a prestige class instead of a feat. that sounds like a better deal to me. Any thoughts Celestial Barbarian? Thanks, Mist! A agree. Way back under 3.0 when I was making prestige classes like they were going out of style, I made one called the celestial disciple. Over the course of 10 levels you transform into a half-celestial: CELESTIAL DISCIPLE PRESTIGE CLASS By David B. Levenstam . Hit Die: d8 Requirements To qualify to become a celestial disciple, a character must fulfill all the following requirements: Ability Score: Intelligence or Wisdom at least 8 Alignment: Any good Base Attack Bonus: +4 Knowledge (arcana): 5 ranks Knowledge (religion): 5 ranks Language: Celestial Race: Any non-celestial (cannot already be a half-celestial) Special: The character must be extremely good, always pursuing justice and fairness, and generally avoiding temptations like greed and ambition Class Skills A celestial disciple’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Animal Empathy (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), and Wilderness Lore (Wis). See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player’s Handbook for skill descriptions. Skill points at each level: 8 + Int modifier. Class Features All of the following are class features of the celestial disciple prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: You gain no additional proficiency in any weapon or armor. Note that armor check penalties for armor heavier than leather apply to the skills Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Pick Pocket, and Tumble. Swim checks suffer a –1 penalty for every 10 pounds of armor and equipment carried. Ability Boost: As you gain levels in celestial disciple your ability scores increase as noted in Table 1. Two bonuses to the same ability score do stack. Spell-Like Abilities: You can use spell-like abilities as indicated in Table 1. As a supernatural ability you may use daylight at will (as many times per day as you like) as a free action; using any of the spell-like ability requires a standard action. Low Light Vision: At 3rd level you gain the half-celestial’s low light vision. TABLE 1: CELESTIAL DISCIPLE Class Base Attack Level Bonus FS/RS/WS Special 1st +1 +2+2/+2 Ability boost (Str +2), light at will as a free action, bless 1/day & protection from evil 3/day 2nd +2 +3/+3/+3 Ability boost (Dex +2), aid & detect evil 1/day, low light vision 3rd +3 +3/+3/+3 Ability boost (Con +2), cure serious wounds & neutralize poison 1/day, +4 racial bonus to Fortitude saves against poison 4th +4 +4/+4/+4 Ability boost (Int +2), holy smite & remove disease 1/day, +1 natural armor 5th +5 +4/+4/+4 Ability boost (Wis +2), dispel evil 1/day, disease immunity 6th +6 +5/+5/+5 Ability boost (Cha +2), holy word 1/day, electricity immunity 7th +7 +5/+5/+5 Ability boost (Str +2), holy aura 3/day, hallow 1/day, cold immunity 8th +8 +6/+6/+6 Ability boost (Con +2), symbol 1/day, acid immunity 9th +9 +6/+6/+6 Ability boost (Wis +2), summon monster IX (celestials only) 1/day, wings 10th +10 +7/+7/+7 Ability boost (Cha +2), resurrection 1/day, celestial apotheosis, celestial companion Racial Bonus: At 4th level you gain the half-celestial’s +4 racial bonus to Fortitude saves against poison. The bonus stacks with any other bonus you might have to Fortitude saves. Natural Armor: At 4th level you gain the half-celestial’s +1 natural armor. Immunities: From 5th through 8th level you gain the half-celestial’s energy immunities as indicated in Table 1. Wings: At 8th level you gain a pair of feathered wings that allow you to fly at twice your ground movement speed with good maneuverability. Celestial Apotheosis: At 10th level you transform into a half-celestial, gaining the full half-celestial template and changing your creature type to Outsider. Unlike other Outsiders you can be raised from the dead. Celestial Companion: At 10th level any animal companion, familiar, or paladin’s mount you have gains the celestial template. (See Monster Manual p. 211.) If you already have a celestial familiar (knight-mage prestige class) or celestial companion (holy liberator prestige class), it gains +5 hit dice and whatever improved celestial abilities (smite evil damage; acid, cold and electricity resistance; damage reduction) the higher hit dice would grant it. Any animal companion, familiar, or paladin’s mount you subsequently acquire gains the celestial template. If you subsequently acquire a celestial familiar from the knight-mage prestige class, it gains the +5 hit dice. If you do not have an animal companion, familiar, paladin’s mount, celestial familiar or celestial companion, you gain a celestial companion as detailed on pages 59 and 60 of Defenders of the Faith. If subsequently you would gain a celestial companion because you have taken 5 levels of holy liberator you do not get another celestial companion; your existing celestial companion instead gets the +5 hit dice. Ex-Celestial Disciples If you become evil or willfully commit an evil act you lose all celestial disciple special abilities. You may regain your abilities if you atone for your violations (see the atonement spell description, page 176, Player’s Handbook) as appropriate.
Need_A_Life 04-15-06, 03:20 PM	If I had to design this feat myself, I'd give the abilities of a DvR 0 over time. I wouldn't actually say "You are now a quasi-deity, go nuts!" but I'd give the benefits. The main reason that I can't take this seriously is that at level 45 game balance is already out the window (look at the OP boards and they work up to level 20! 45 levels is 900% of what is needed for Pun-Pun). If my DM said "At level 40 you all get infinite divine ranks, omniscience [et cetera]" I wouldn't even bother writing it down, because once you play at those levels you are no longer the person serving the gods or empires, you have the money to BUY empires and capable of dishing out enough damage to kill most gods in a single blow. About the Paragon template: I never liked it, somehow it seems cheesy. I like the explaination of being a god to get awesome bonuses, not being "a better version of... yourself?" (also why I do not like Aleax; BoED).
Mist of Shadows 04-15-06, 03:46 PM	you would give out the abilities of a god but being the best human you could be seems silly? Okay that's interesting, or not. Level 45 you don't really have the ability to kill gods, at least not gods that aren't made by wizard's of the coast. You don't have any where close to the abilities of that broken monkey humper pun pun either. (I have serious issues with the pun pun being a god deal. Or really the idea that pun pun can grant himself abilities he doesn't have. The people that wrote that stupid monster should be shot. I read it in the book store the other day it's not even well writen.) As for level 45 sure it's high level but there are still things to do, if you don't like that level of play then don't play.
Mist of Shadows 04-15-06, 04:10 PM	I mean for that matter the Aleax is a STUPID CONCEPT. For example take a character with enough wealth. Take a piece of a deity cast ice assassin. You have have a deity under your control. Strip out of your armor. Get a mace of smiting, enchant it to have the mercy special ability pay more for it to not be able to be turned off. Get some con enhancing spells items abilities. You are going to want to have at least +5 inherient and 6 to con. Lock yourselves in an arena have the god (your ice assasin make an aleax of yourself. You both have maces of smiting you have more hp from the con bonuses (it's a construct) you aren't wearing ac bonuses so neigher is it. All you have to do is role a crit. And it's dead no save auto +2 to wisdom and other nice features. dismiss the ice assassin heal up and re create the ice assassin repeat for more +2's to wisdom. There is something horribly broken about that.
vorax20k 04-16-06, 06:13 PM	Everyone is forgetting what the book says about the devine ranks. Rank 0: Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasidieties or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category. These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability scores that are far above the norm for their species. They may have some worshipers. Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank altogether. Rank 1-5: These entities, called demigods, are the weakest of the deities. A demigod can grant spells and perform a few deeds that are beyond mortal limits, such as hearing a grasshopper from a mile away. A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshipers and may receive veneration or respect from many more. A demigod controls a small godly realm (usually on an Outer Plane) and has minor control over a portfolio that includes one or more aspects of mortal existence. A demigod might be very accomplished in a single skill or a group of related skills, gain combat advantages in a special circumstances, or be able to bring about minor changes in reality itself related to the portfolio. For example, a demigod of thieves might be able to change a stolen item so that it is no longer recognizable. So no, Dv0 does not make them gods or even demigods. Divine yes, god no. The thing about this feat that doesn't sit well with me is after lvl 45 I just need 3 feet to get DvR 0 and all those other abilities. There must be some requirement on the minimum number of levels you have to have VoP feet to get some of the powers, like a min of 20 lvls with EVoP to become DvR 0.
Retiarius 04-16-06, 07:25 PM	After continued discussion on this feat, I'd like to include what I think is one better balanced and a more natural progression of the original Vow of Poverty feat: Epic Vow of Poverty [Epic, Exalted] You have renewed your vow to forswear material possessions. Prerequisites: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, character level 21+. Benefit: You continue to gain bonuses to your Armor Class, attacks, ability scores and saving throws, as well as bonus feats, all depending on your character level. See below for details. Special: To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use an ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) quarterstaff. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals). You may carry and use a spell component pouch. You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll or staff, or ride on your companion’s ebon fly. You may not, however, “borrow” a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a scroll, wand or staff. If you break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it. Epic Vow of Poverty Benefits AC Bonus (Su): An epic ascetic's exalted bonus to AC continues to increase by +1 for every three character levels beyond 18th (+11 at 21st level, +12 at 24th level, +13 at 27th level, and so forth). Resistance (Ex): An epic ascetic's resistance bonus to saving throws increases by +1 for every four character levels beyond 17th (+4 at 21st, +5 at 25th, +6 at 29th and so forth). Bonus Feats: An epic ascetic gains a bonus exalted or epic exalted feat every two levels over 20th (22nd, 24th, 26th and so forth). Exalted Strike (Su): An epic ascetic's exalted strike ability continues to increase as he gains levels. The enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls increases by +1 for every three character levels beyond 20th. At 23rd level, any weapon the character wields effectively becomes a +6 weapon, and can overcome the damage reduction of a creature as though it were an epic weapon. Ability Score Enhancement (Ex): An epic ascetic's ability score enhancements continue to increase beyond 20th level. At 23rd level, his existing bonuses increase by +2 and he gains a +2 bonus to a fifth ability score. At 27th level, he gains a +2 bonus to those five scores and a +2 bonus to the sixth ability score. The bonus for each ability score then increases by +2 for every four character levels after 27th level. [Suggestion: to reduce this progression, you can make it +1 every four levels or stop it after 27th level.] Damage Reduction (Su): At 24th level, the epic ascetic’s damage reduction improves to 10/epic and evil. For every ten character levels the ascetic gains beyond 24th, his damage reduction improves by 5 points (15/epic and evil at 34th, 20/epic and evil at 44th, etc.). Deflection (Su): An epic ascetic's deflection bonus to AC increases by +1 at 24th level, and every six character levels thereafter. Natural Armor (Ex): An epic ascetic's natural armor bonus to AC increases by +1 for every eight character levels beyond 16th (24th, 32nd, 40th and so forth). Energy Resistance (Ex): An epic ascetic's energy resistance increases by 10 for every seven character levels after 20th level (27th, 34th, 41st and so forth). Sweet, neat and petite. If you need to add special abilities, add more epic exalted feats. The epic ascetic will need a larger selection soon enough. Some may think that it needs more inherent special abilities, but I don't see that. Most epic prestige classes do not include new abilities that do not progress along a certain pattern. I see no reason to ignore that precedent for just a feat.
CelestialBarbarian 04-17-06, 05:42 AM	After continued discussion on this feat, I'd like to include what I think is one better balanced and a more natural progression of the original Vow of Poverty feat: Epic Vow of Poverty [Epic, Exalted] You have renewed your vow to forswear material possessions. Prerequisites: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, character level 21+. Benefit: You continue to gain bonuses to your Armor Class, attacks, ability scores and saving throws, as well as bonus feats, all depending on your character level. See below for details. Special: To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use an ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) quarterstaff. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals). You may carry and use a spell component pouch. You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll or staff, or ride on your companion’s ebon fly. You may not, however, “borrow” a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a scroll, wand or staff. If you break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it. Epic Vow of Poverty Benefits AC Bonus (Su): An epic ascetic's exalted bonus to AC continues to increase by +1 for every three character levels beyond 18th (+11 at 21st level, +12 at 24th level, +13 at 27th level, and so forth). Resistance (Ex): An epic ascetic's resistance bonus to saving throws increases by +1 for every four character levels beyond 17th (+4 at 21st, +5 at 25th, +6 at 29th and so forth). Bonus Feats: An epic ascetic gains a bonus exalted or epic exalted feat every two levels over 20th (22nd, 24th, 26th and so forth). Exalted Strike (Su): An epic ascetic's exalted strike ability continues to increase as he gains levels. The enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls increases by +1 for every three character levels beyond 20th. At 23rd level, any weapon the character wields effectively becomes a +6 weapon, and can overcome the damage reduction of a creature as though it were an epic weapon. Ability Score Enhancement (Ex): An epic ascetic's ability score enhancements continue to increase beyond 20th level. At 23rd level, his existing bonuses increase by +2 and he gains a +2 bonus to a fifth ability score. At 27th level, he gains a +2 bonus to those five scores and a +2 bonus to the sixth ability score. The bonus for each ability score then increases by +2 for every four character levels after 27th level. [Suggestion: to reduce this progression, you can make it +1 every four levels or stop it after 27th level.] Damage Reduction (Su): At 24th level, the epic ascetic’s damage reduction improves to 10/epic and evil. For every ten character levels the ascetic gains beyond 24th, his damage reduction improves by 5 points (15/epic and evil at 34th, 20/epic and evil at 44th, etc.). Deflection (Su): An epic ascetic's deflection bonus to AC increases by +1 at 24th level, and every six character levels thereafter. Natural Armor (Ex): An epic ascetic's natural armor bonus to AC increases by +1 for every eight character levels beyond 16th (24th, 32nd, 40th and so forth). Energy Resistance (Ex): An epic ascetic's energy resistance increases by 10 for every seven character levels after 20th level (27th, 34th, 41st and so forth). Sweet, neat and petite. If you need to add special abilities, add more epic exalted feats. The epic ascetic will need a larger selection soon enough. Some may think that it needs more inherent special abilities, but I don't see that. Most epic prestige classes do not include new abilities that do not progress along a certain pattern. I see no reason to ignore that precedent for just a feat. Well done! This seems much more in line with the non-epic Vow of Poverty feat. For bonuses that might seem to grow too great after many levels, I prefer using a lower rate of increase to capping the increase. Allowing the increase to continue gives the player something to look forward to as his character increases in level. Speaking of increasing bonuses, do you think that some of the other bonuses might increase at too fast a rate? What sort of total bonuses are we looking at, for example, with a 30th level character?
lostone 04-17-06, 07:39 AM	I don't like it. The metagame reason behind VoP granting any bonuses whatsoever is so the character isn't totally outclassed by their magic item using allies and enemies. I don't feel your version will allow a VoP to remain effective in an equal level group of magic item users. He'll be the gimp of the group. The OP's version, while it may look overpowered on paper, is actually not keeping up with the magic items the group will have, but is closer. I'm not seeing it in this thread, but the original thread had a comparison between how much the VoP abilities would cost as magic items and then compared that with an expanded table of wealth by character level that an epic character is expected to have, eVoP was falling behind.
CelestialBarbarian 04-17-06, 07:55 AM	I don't like it. The metagame reason behind VoP granting any bonuses whatsoever is so the character isn't totally outclassed by their magic item using allies and enemies. I don't feel your version will allow a VoP to remain effective in an equal level group of magic item users. He'll be the gimp of the group. The OP's version, while it may look overpowered on paper, is actually not keeping up with the magic items the group will have, but is closer. I'm not seeing it in this thread, but the original thread had a comparison between how much the VoP abilities would cost as magic items and then compared that with an expanded table of wealth by character level that an epic character is expected to have, eVoP was falling behind. Much of what we objected to in the original version--such as divine ascension--has nothing to do with the powers that characters acquire through more powerful magic items. If this version's various bonus increases don't keep up with bonus increases from more powerful magic items, I'd like to see it. Based on my own experience DMing I'd say it's much more likely that the Epic Vow of Poverty character will soon outstrip his compatriots, if indeed he hasn't already done so at non-epic levels. Of course in a Monty Haul campaign tossing around +5 holy vorpal swords ("Anyone need another vorpal sword?" "No thanks, I already have two.") the character who can't benefit from treasure is going to suffer by comparison. If you find yourself in a Monty Haul campaign and still want to play, I recommend against the Vow of Poverty in the first place. :)
lostone 04-17-06, 11:01 AM	If this version's various bonus increases don't keep up with bonus increases from more powerful magic items, I'd like to see it. It may be good for your game, but I'm curious, have you ever compaired how much equipment your 20th level characters have to the Character Wealth by Level table found in the DMG? That table is what WotC expects players to have when they figure CR for creatures. If your characters are getting less, then eVoP could easilly overshadow the group. It has been expanded here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6271367&postcount=14) for epic level use. It isn't official, but it seems to follow the trend, I believe it is based off of an old thread where a lot of the epic boards people contributed to the discussion to fine tune that table. Based on my own experience DMing I'd say it's much more likely that the Epic Vow of Poverty character will soon outstrip his compatriots, if indeed he hasn't already done so at non-epic levels.Again it depends on your style of play. The eVoP is geared toward a more mainstream game following what WotC seems to expect players to have based on character wealth. Of course in a Monty Haul campaign tossing around +5 holy vorpal swords ("Anyone need another vorpal sword?" "No thanks, I already have two.") the character who can't benefit from treasure is going to suffer by comparison. If you find yourself in a Monty Haul campaign and still want to play, I recommend against the Vow of Poverty in the first place. :)As would I. Epic level seems to lean towards monty haul, IMO.
rob_douglas 04-17-06, 03:54 PM	Someone mentioned the feat bonuses vs. equipment price comparisons. They are found here: http://members.lycos.co.uk/WizONegathael/VoP.htm One problem I have seen is that the feat abilities are generally not susceptible to Mord Disjunction, or AMF (ability score enhancement as an Ex ability - should be Su). Also there is the rate of gain - it can easily outstrip the pace that characters can craft new items at epic levels. By the RAW, you can't "buy" any item above 600,000gp (planar Metropolis GP limit, ELH page 113, table 3-5. But this feat gives bonuses that mimc that instantaneously. Your crafting friend in the group has to sacrifice a lot of XPs and many days to get the same thing - not just money. That is a problem I have with this feat. I do think it would be more balanced if you had to keep taking the feat periodically - say every 5 levels. ROB
Mist of Shadows 04-17-06, 06:24 PM	One thing an epic party basically needs a epic item crafter (in the party) to beat the bonuses you want to give them. If they don't have that they AREN"T going to beat the vop person unless the game is really maunty haul. You just don't end up with the right equipment often enough, and it's really hard to get people to make epic level items for you. In fact it's normally an epic style quest just to get them to agree then you still have to pay them. Now if you have a item crafter in the party you are going to do much better on the matching the epic vop for bonuses. As for dm's using the standard wealth guide it's great in theory. But it has some problems at epic level. You have spells that can make vast amounts of gold. For example a single epic spell that raises a persons stats by +5 inherient could easily net you 100,000 gold. and cost you nothing if you do it right. Maybe there aren't that many adventurers that could afford it but if you did it long enough you can afford what ever you need pretty soon. This isn't an argument for vop to increase it's just saying that the standard wealth guides mean very little. I don't really think a character should take a feat only to get more feats. That's sort of problematic because magical items don't grant feats normally. Side note: Speaking tossing around vorpal swords. One of the epic traps in the back of the book could be used very easily to gather epic swords, gate in balors tell them to walk through a door way. Have it set up like the mirrior of life trapping trap on the library. (in kerrith's tower in the epic book.) Now you have a stupid amount of vorpal swords when you call things. Angels tend to have good weapons as well. End of side note: There comes a point where the non epic character couldn't afford the price to increase one of his bonuses let alone 3 or 4 like the vop character. And as CelestialBarbarian said: Much of what we objected to in the original version--such as divine ascension--has nothing to do with the powers that characters acquire through more powerful magic items. If they want bonuses and such things have the vop people take Incarnium. Or is that too broken for people, sort of like having your cake and eating it too. Magical items that aren't really magical items cause they have no cost and thus aren't really magical items according to the vop. So yeah hey an even more broken vop character. mix with monk and stir.
CelestialBarbarian 04-17-06, 08:54 PM	Rob and Mist have pretty well articulated what I'm saying. :)
bluemage55 04-17-06, 10:24 PM	Side note: Speaking tossing around vorpal swords. One of the epic traps in the back of the book could be used very easily to gather epic swords, gate in balors tell them to walk through a door way. Have it set up like the mirrior of life trapping trap on the library. (in kerrith's tower in the epic book.) Now you have a stupid amount of vorpal swords when you call things. Angels tend to have good weapons as well. Side note responding to side note: It wouldn't take very long before the Abyss takes note of what is happening, and to send some very powerful foes against you. Angels would probably be even more enraged and throw every epic/divine paladin on the same continent at you.
WarDragon 04-17-06, 10:29 PM	Well, Rob and Mist left a couple of things out. First, by the costing standards, a custom-crafted item is exactly as expensive as one bought for market value. You lose less gold, but you're out time, and your crafter(s) start(s) falling behind in levels. Second, and more importantly, regardless of how much time and XP are spent, game balance (which can exist at Epic levels, believe it or not) is still predicated on the assumption that you'll have a certain amount of total wealth at a given level. How you get it, or how long it takes, matters not. Therefore, in a "balanced" party, the Ascetic is still falling ever farther behind, especially if the item-crafters get creative and make stuff not in the books. Immunity to the relatively rare and quite possibly broken Anti-magic Fields (at least once they become quasi-deities) is still only a drop in the bucket compared to what their comrades can be toting around. I will concede the point on MDJ, though. Also, a new Special Ability... Exalted Flight (Sp): For a number of minutes each day equal to your character level, you may sprout a pair of vast, angelic wings. These wings allow you to fly at a speed of 100 ft., with Good maneuverability. It is a standard action to grow or dismiss the wings, and their use may be divided as you see fit, in increments as small as one round.
CelestialBarbarian 04-17-06, 11:47 PM	Well, Rob and Mist left a couple of things out. First, by the costing standards, a custom-crafted item is exactly as expensive as one bought for market value. You lose less gold, but you're out time, and your crafter(s) start(s) falling behind in levels. Second, and more importantly, regardless of how much time and XP are spent, game balance (which can exist at Epic levels, believe it or not) is still predicated on the assumption that you'll have a certain amount of total wealth at a given level. How you get it, or how long it takes, matters not. Therefore, in a "balanced" party, the Ascetic is still falling ever farther behind, especially if the item-crafters get creative and make stuff not in the books. Immunity to the relatively rare and quite possibly broken Anti-magic Fields (at least once they become quasi-deities) is still only a drop in the bucket compared to what their comrades can be toting around. I will concede the point on MDJ, though. Also, a new Special Ability... Exalted Flight (Sp): For a number of minutes each day equal to your character level, you may sprout a pair of vast, angelic wings. These wings allow you to fly at a speed of 100 ft., with Good maneuverability. It is a standard action to grow or dismiss the wings, and their use may be divided as you see fit, in increments as small as one round. I still think it's more likely that the character with guaranteed bonuses will outpace the characters who have to rely on wealth to get bonuses. What's "MDJ?"
bluemage55 04-18-06, 12:27 AM	I still think it's more likely that the character with guaranteed bonuses will outpace the characters who have to rely on wealth to get bonuses. What's "MDJ?" MDJ is Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Whether guaranteed bonuses will outpace wealth-based bonuses really depends on the extent of those bonuses. Classes such as the (illithid) slayer, for example, have a narrow focus, but within that focus, are significantly more powerful. In this case, wealth-based characters have only a slightly narrowed focus (that is, they can only take advantage of their magic items outside of AMF and are endangered by MDJ/Dispel), and so should not comparatively be far stronger. But in the event that you do believe that a VoP character should have fewer "guaranteed" bonuses than magic items would otherwise grant, how much less would you believe is appropriate? ECL -1? ECL -2? Less? The question simply boils down to a simple factor: game balance. Since EVoP, is after all, an unofficial feat, the point is to set it at a level that feels fair for most players' campaigns.
vorax20k 04-18-06, 12:36 AM	What's "MDJ?" I belive Mordenkainen's Disjunction. The way I see the feat is: your giving up a LOT of flexability magic items like most wonderus items give you. The diffrent robes, boots, scarabs, amulets, potions and other things can give you a deffinet edge. Though I do see the other side, strait up this one feat does give a lot of bonuses, powers and protection. The people with magic items just need to learn to think outside of the box; use that versitality to your advantige.
CelestialBarbarian 04-18-06, 12:45 AM	MDJ is Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Whether guaranteed bonuses will outpace wealth-based bonuses really depends on the extent of those bonuses. Classes such as the (illithid) slayer, for example, have a narrow focus, but within that focus, are significantly more powerful. In this case, wealth-based characters have only a slightly narrowed focus (that is, they can only take advantage of their magic items outside of AMF and are endangered by MDJ/Dispel), and so should not comparatively be far stronger. But in the event that you do believe that a VoP character should have fewer "guaranteed" bonuses than magic items would otherwise grant, how much less would you believe is appropriate? ECL -1? ECL -2? Less? The question simply boils down to a simple factor: game balance. Since EVoP, is after all, an unofficial feat, the point is to set it at a level that feels fair for most players' campaigns. I agree. You don't want the character with the Epic Vow of Poverty to either outshine or be outshined by the rest of the party. I don't think that the suggested wealth levels really correspond to certain bonuses, so I think it's hard to say that the Epic Vow of Poverty should be ECL minus some number or other. I think it's more an art than a science in trying to balance these things, and I simpy wondered if maybe the second Epic Vow of Poverty might balance things better with a slighly slower progression of benefits. I just don't see other characters gaining steady bonuses anywhere near as quickly.
Mist of Shadows 04-18-06, 02:12 AM	It's not that vop don't have to worry about anti magic fields they do. It's the fact that they don't worry about morts disjunction that bothers me. The rest of us can lose millions of gold peices to one spell. Our effective ability to fight at our challenge rating goes to hell in a hand basket. Now on the side of vow of poverty (stabs self repeatedly) They are going to lose a great deal of versitility in giving up magical items, That might translate into having higher bonuses on the general bonuses. In some ways you have to look at the vop as characters with non stealable wealth. They have nothing to fear from thieves. (rogues with sneak attack maybe) but not thieves they have nothing to steal. That means that all of the gold pcs poor into keeping their ill-gotten/hard won gold don't apply and thus the vop gains on the pc. They don't collect art objects or other expensive toys. I think at least 15 % of my epic characters wealth is tied up in (game) useless items. Art objects gems and gold. I just want people to remember that most characters (outside of the char opp board) don't spend all of their gold on magical items. We spend it wenching and drinking and on items to impress and on travel expenses. The fact that the vop wealth (which is his bonuses and such) can never be stolen (outside of anti magic which nerfs the magical item people just as badly) You are the same in prision as out of it, that should count somehow. You should have less effective gold then a pc of the same level. The question becomes how much, well at least 15 % less.
CelestialBarbarian 04-18-06, 02:28 AM	It's not that vop don't have to worry about anti magic fields they do. It's the fact that they don't worry about morts disjunction that bothers me. The rest of us can lose millions of gold peices to one spell. Our effective ability to fight at our challenge rating goes to hell in a hand basket. Now on the side of vow of poverty (stabs self repeatedly) They are going to lose a great deal of versitility in giving up magical items, That might translate into having higher bonuses on the general bonuses. In some ways you have to look at the vop as characters with non stealable wealth. They have nothing to fear from thieves. (rogues with sneak attack maybe) but not thieves they have nothing to steal. That means that all of the gold pcs poor into keeping their ill-gotten/hard won gold don't apply and thus the vop gains on the pc. They don't collect art objects or other expensive toys. I think at least 15 % of my epic characters wealth is tied up in (game) useless items. Art objects gems and gold. I just want people to remember that most characters (outside of the char opp board) don't spend all of their gold on magical items. We spend it wenching and drinking and on items to impress and on travel expenses. The fact that the vop wealth (which is his bonuses and such) can never be stolen (outside of anti magic which nerfs the magical item people just as badly) You are the same in prision as out of it, that should count somehow. You should have less effective gold then a pc of the same level. The question becomes how much, well at least 15 % less. You make good points. :)
bluemage55 04-18-06, 02:32 AM	According to the VoP comparison chart, the EVoP character, as written, actually has 24% less wealth than a normal character. Hmm.
Mist of Shadows 04-18-06, 02:58 AM	That's not really so bad when you track everything they aren't buying. Supplies, food, price of shelter, art items, donations to temples (as in paladins and clerics that give some of their cash to their temples just because it's the right thing to do.) There is also the price for information, price to use a library spell research costs that they aren't paying. Master work tools for the theives. Expected theivery over your adventuring life. I figure that's worth 24% less gold in some cases. And every bit of a vop's "gold" goes someplace useful. Then again on the downside, one evil act and 100% of your money goes away. But if you have actually been playing for 20 levels and have kept your vop then you are probably safe from messing up your alignment. I don't know, I can't really see myself playing a character that good. But if I was in a campaign with a dm that didn't let me craft anything that wasn't right out of the book, and would contrive things to make sure we fit the wealth listing I would go for vop. (such as vanishing dead party members loot and other such things.) As anyone actually play tested the epic vop feat?
CelestialBarbarian 04-18-06, 03:02 AM	According to the VoP comparison chart, the EVoP character, as written, actually has 24% less wealth than a normal character. Hmm. I wonder though if that's able to take into account all the Epic Vow of Poverty abilities.
bluemage55 04-18-06, 03:12 AM	That's not really so bad when you track everything they aren't buying. Supplies, food, price of shelter, art items, donations to temples (as in paladins and clerics that give some of their cash to their temples just because it's the right thing to do.) Expected Character Wealth actually takes that into account, and is a measure of how much useful money that characters should have available (money expended on things such as supplies, wands, potions, donations, traveling costs are deducted). I wonder though if that's able to take into account all the Epic Vow of Poverty abilities. I believe it does, although some of the pricing is suspect. Bonus feats for 300 gp, for example, when the price of a non-epic feat is 5,000 gp for a slotted non-epic feat item and 50,000 gp for a slotted epic feat.
Mist of Shadows 04-18-06, 03:24 AM	Yeah well I think we have to toss that price guide out as being broken. Cause we both know feats are worth more then gold. Really I would spend a lot on an item to give me feats. And I have any chance I have. So maybe we need to recalculate the %.
bluemage55 04-18-06, 03:38 AM	Yeah well I think we have to toss that price guide out as being broken. Cause we both know feats are worth more then gold. Really I would spend a lot on an item to give me feats. And I have any chance I have. So maybe we need to recalculate the %. Extrapolation prices it at 5,000/50,000 for non-epic/epic feats. The Exalted bonus to AC price also needs to be changed. Divinity is worth about 600,000gp by the chart's calculation. I consider divinity priceless, but then, that's why I advocate its removal and replacement.
CelestialBarbarian 04-18-06, 05:36 AM	Extrapolation prices it at 5,000/50,000 for non-epic/epic feats. The Exalted bonus to AC price also needs to be changed. Divinity is worth about 600,000gp by the chart's calculation. I consider divinity priceless, but then, that's why I advocate its removal and replacement. Yes, good call on the pricing.
lostone 04-18-06, 08:28 AM	That's not really so bad when you track everything they aren't buying. Supplies, food, price of shelter, art items, donations to temples (as in paladins and clerics that give some of their cash to their temples just because it's the right thing to do.) It isn't the fault of the character with VoP that his party wastes their treasure on things like booze and women, that's their bad decisions and they should suffer for it. But the table the VoP is being compaired to is how much wealth the character has at that level, not how much they have donated to the temples, or lost to thieves. That is how much WotC expects a balanced party to have, in usable gear, at any given time to be balanced against the CR. One of the ways in which you can maintain measurable control on PC power is by strictly monitoring their wealth, including their magic items. Table 5-1: Character Wealth by Level is based on average treasures found in average encounters compared with the experience points earned in those encounters. Using that information, you can determine how much wealth a character should have based on her level. The baseline campaign for the D&D game uses this "wealth by level" guideline as a basis for balance in adventures.If the character doesn't have it, because it was stolen by thieves, it can't be considered wealth for balance purposes. If it was donated or wasted by the character, that is their decision, and they have lessened their potential by doing so.
Mist of Shadows 04-18-06, 02:49 PM	Iostone If the character doesn't have it, because it was stolen by thieves, it can't be considered wealth for balance purposes. If it was donated or wasted by the character, that is their decision, and they have lessened their potential by doing so. I don't know too many people that doesn't have some loot laying around in unusable form. I mean heck by your logic gold is useless because it's not stuck into a + or something magical item to be used by the party. I don't really see research costs as being wasted nor the good will you get by donating (okay maybe on the donating thing) but that's a players choice and it's going to happen. The wealth charts don't take into consideration what you have to spend to pay for a mission. My main comment is that I see no reason for the Vop person to be at the top of the wealth scale. And I fail to see how you can price feats, when you can only make a few magical items that grant them and they are all more then 5000 gold and only select feats. So having a choice has to be better thus worth more then 5000. I'm not aware of any items that grant epic feats (though I could be wrong) As for godhood, being that there isn't an item that changes you to an outsider, prevents you from dieing of old age and grants you dr 10/epic (lowest you would have or epic spell resistance for under 600,000 that figure is warped.
lostone 04-18-06, 03:39 PM	I don't know too many people that doesn't have some loot laying around in unusable form. I mean heck by your logic gold is useless because it's not stuck into a + or something magical item to be used by the party.Which to me means that WotC actually expects characters to earn enough more than on the table to cover those extra expenses. Most expenses they will run across are spent on things that would not be considered "accumulated wealth" which is what the table seems to be based on: how much the character has at that level in gear and other things (like spells). Food, staying at the inn, buying passage on a ship, those are not accumulated wealth, they are temporary services and goods. I don't really see research costs as being wasted nor the good will you get by donating (okay maybe on the donating thing) but that's a players choice and it's going to happen. And that is their choice. The wealth charts don't take into consideration what you have to spend to pay for a mission.Which to me means that WotC actually expects character to earn enough more than on the table to cover those extra expenses. My main comment is that I see no reason for the Vop person to be at the top of the wealth scale. And I fail to see how you can price feats, when you can only make a few magical items that grant them and they are all more then 5000 gold and only select feats. So having a choice has to be better thus worth more then 5000. I'm not aware of any items that grant epic feats (though I could be wrong) I don't claim to understand how they figured the value on the feats. Probably some adhoc figuring, just like in the epic spells section...it's rampant in the ELH. :D As for godhood, being that there isn't an item that changes you to an outsider, prevents you from dieing of old age and grants you dr 10/epic (lowest you would have or epic spell resistance for under 600,000 that figure is warped.More adhoc?
Mist of Shadows 04-18-06, 04:14 PM	I would assume so for the ad-hoc stuff. As for the table and expenses maybe so. But just because it is my choice to spend the gold where I want it, doesn't mean the guy that doesn't care about it should come out ahead of where I could have been. They should come out a bit under the average, it pays for them not having to care about gold. (other then using up (stealing) a party's share and donating it) Though I think the calculations are off. The feats and things should cost more gold so I think it probably evens out the wealth calculations a bit more then the vop people would like you to think.
CelestialBarbarian 04-18-06, 07:00 PM	I would assume so for the ad-hoc stuff. As for the table and expenses maybe so. But just because it is my choice to spend the gold where I want it, doesn't mean the guy that doesn't care about it should come out ahead of where I could have been. They should come out a bit under the average, it pays for them not having to care about gold. (other then using up (stealing) a party's share and donating it) Though I think the calculations are off. The feats and things should cost more gold so I think it probably evens out the wealth calculations a bit more then the vop people would like you to think. I agree that the calculations seem off, and that the VoP should keep the character roughly equal to average characters his own level, rather than with super-max/min characters who have squeeze every copper piece into bonus-granting magic items.
rob_douglas 04-19-06, 12:14 AM	As for godhood, being that there isn't an item that changes you to an outsider, prevents you from dieing of old age and grants you dr 10/epic (lowest you would have or epic spell resistance for under 600,000 that figure is warped. Amulet of Continuous Shape Change into a Solar: Caster level 17, Level 9 spell, hours duration: 17*9*2000 = 306000gp base price. Requires Craft Epic Wondrous. SR 32, DR 15/Epic and Evil, Outsider, and plenty of other benefits. But I agree on the feats. A feat granting more feats has been the biggest concern for me. ROB
CelestialBarbarian 04-19-06, 12:42 AM	Amulet of Continuous Shape Change into a Solar: Caster level 17, Level 9 spell, hours duration: 17*9*2000 = 306000gp base price. Requires Craft Epic Wondrous. SR 32, DR 15/Epic and Evil, Outsider, and plenty of other benefits. But I agree on the feats. A feat granting more feats has been the biggest concern for me. ROB Solars are certainly powerful and cool, yet not quite up to the status of a quasi-deity. I never considered the point about a feat granting more feats. It's like Vow of Poverty is a prestige class masquarading a feat. :D You make a good point.
Mist of Shadows 04-19-06, 01:51 AM	Well that makes you masqurade as a solar it doesn't make you one.. But yeah not really the issue now is it. As for the feat granting feats I would rather see the whole thing as a prestige class. I still think there is something wrong with the fact that solars have better dr then rank 0 gods. Ah well, I'm sure there is something you could do mechanics wise to match it with special items but why the point is to make you combat effective or something like that. What about if we did the prestige class like the from unearthed arcana with a adds to base class type of feature.
lostone 04-19-06, 09:10 AM	I still think there is something wrong with the fact that solars have better dr then rank 0 gods. As shown above, DvR 0 is not a god, it isn't even a demigod (DvR 1-5). It's more like an earthbound immortal. What about if we did the prestige class like the from unearthed arcana with a adds to base class type of feature.That is otuside the scope of this thread. I encourage you to start a new thread to accomplish this, I look forward to seeing what you come up with. But this thread is for discussion and tweaking of the OP's epic vow of poverty, which has been the most popular one of all the previous attempts to create one on this board since BoED came out.
CelestialBarbarian 04-20-06, 02:38 AM	But this thread is for discussion and tweaking of the OP's epic vow of poverty, which has been the most popular one of all the previous attempts to create one on this board since BoED came out. Yes, given the volume and intensity of hostility toward the original Vow of Poverty, I'm surprised to see people so gung-ho on the Epic Vow of Poverty. Maybe none of the anti-Book of Exalted Deeds crowd plays at epic levels. :D
Mist of Shadows 04-20-06, 03:02 AM	Good point about the making a new thread, I'll get on that. As for the hate of the vop I'm pretty sure we are still around. It's one of those things that could have been done different ways. But I'll get on that prestige class most likely soon.
vorax20k 04-20-06, 11:51 AM	There is one thing I have always wondered, how is a person with VoP and EVoP to take their share of the loot with them to give away? How many coins can you fit into a back pack? My fix would be to give them an ability to make a single pouch they hold into an extradimentional space that will only hold coins and gems that grows the longer they have the feat. It might start off just holding 2 times what a regular pouch might hold, then grow to holding as much as a type 4 bag of holding at epic lvls. Off course as soon as it's not on the character it becomes normal again, and it wont accept anyting thats not a coin or a gem. To keep the player from useing that money them self, maybe lose the power if they use the money in that pouch for anything but charity. This way the few gold the player is aloted to not give away is kept seperate.
Mist of Shadows 04-20-06, 04:36 PM	vorax20k There is one thing I have always wondered, how is a person with VoP and EVoP to take their share of the loot with them to give away? How many coins can you fit into a back pack? Actually That's a very good point. Being that 50 coins = one pound. 100,000 pounds a sum that's possible to get in epic for coins would be 2000 pounds. A better example would be 10,000 coins would be 200 pounds. You have most likely just given yourself a heavy load. Or you have at least maxed out your backpacks. Being that you can only use a simple backpack. (if you even get that.) I can't really see a party giving the vop person the magical items to give away. They would most likely give them gold at least some of the time. There is also the problem of a character not having wealth. For example if the only thing you find on a mission, cause maybe you lost is a single magical sword. The rest of the party isn't going to let you donate it. You have no wealth to cash them out. And what happens if they can't afford to cash you out? I don't know about you but most groups aren't going to steel magical items (if they are rare or nice and useable) just so you can have your cut. Most parties have a sort of rotation for magical items. That being said I can't really see people carrying the vops gold. Vop player: Can you carry this in your bag of holding? Other player: Nope sorry we really scored with that loot this time around and my bag of holding is full. Vop player: So toss some of junk practice equipment you have in there. Other player: You mean the kids practice equipment? I can't do that I would just have to replace it. Are you going to replace it? Besides that are you going to pay me to carry your gold?" Vop player: Tossing the equipment is the honorable thing to do. Other player: You want the loot you carry it. Or break your vow because you can't carry it home. Use a pack animal, oh wait you can't own one of those can you let along the 20 or more it would take to haul the loot out. So yeah carrying things would be sort of hard. The ability to make a bag into a bag of holding is rather silly. It would have value and have to be sold. Or they would have to waste gold to make it. Unless it was something that only they could use. But that still seems like them owning a magical item which is forbiden.
bluemage55 04-20-06, 06:33 PM	In one campaign I played where another player had VoP, he actually made a rather useful treasure sink. We could divide up treasure "fairly" by giving him equipment no one wanted, since he would donate it anyway, and we valued it at its full value rather than the half value we would have recieved for selling it.
Mist of Shadows 04-20-06, 08:12 PM	That's not a bad idea actually. I guess that's another way to look at the vop guy. We do have a bit of stuff that no one wants. See learn something new every day.
vorax20k 04-21-06, 08:14 PM	The ability to make a bag into a bag of holding is rather silly. It would have value and have to be sold. Or they would have to waste gold to make it. Unless it was something that only they could use. But that still seems like them owning a magical item which is forbiden. It would be something only they could use. Any one bag they have on them gets "deeper" as your lvl gets higher. If you set it down, let go of it, it gets taken from you, ect. it returns to a normal bag. Put a limit on the bag so that EVERYTHING that is put in there MUST be given away for charity or they lose the power untill they atone. This way it wouldn't realy be a magic item, just a way to take their share thats to be given away.
Mist of Shadows 04-21-06, 09:55 PM	I think that it would still fall under the owning a magical item. I would have to disallow it. As for how the vop person gets his loot back to a place he can donate it, well that's not really my problem. Though I guess not helping your traveling companion might make them leave. I guess that's just my thoughts. P.s. check out my prestige class for vop if you get the chance. It's sitting in the epic forum not to far back.
CelestialBarbarian 04-21-06, 10:41 PM	I think that it would still fall under the owning a magical item. I would have to disallow it. As for how the vop person gets his loot back to a place he can donate it, well that's not really my problem. Though I guess not helping your traveling companion might make them leave. I guess that's just my thoughts. P.s. check out my prestige class for vop if you get the chance. It's sitting in the epic forum not to far back. In an Eberron campaign I ran last year one of the players ran a weretiger (using Savage Species rules to level up) with the Vow of Poverty feat. The player developed a backstory that had the PC helping other lycanthropes escape prosecution. To that end he donated all his share of treasure to a fund that supported an underground railroad. But I don't recall how he ever got the money from where he found it to the fund. I think this is a problem the authors of Book of Exalted Deeds didn't foresee when they wrote the portion about the ascetic engaging in charitable works. A DM who wants to allow the feat could either rule that the ascetic doesn't have to engage in such charity, or that he can temporarily carry treasure to transport it to a charity. Neither option seems particularly good, but there you have it. :( Edit: I now recall that we let the weretiger put his starting wealth (he started above first level because he was the player's second character) in an account in Sharn, and when he came across a lycanthrope he would give the lycanthrope a contact name in Sharn. The contact was an NPC who ran the fund and organized the underground railroad. Other than that though, I think the weretiger didn't take any share of wealth. A third option would allow the ascetic to have a bag that teleports coins and gems to the vault of a charitable fund run by somebody trustworthy like the clerics (or paladins) of a good-aligned god. Of course this violates the rule forbiding the ascetic from having a magic item, so it's a third bad option. :D
Mist of Shadows 04-21-06, 11:12 PM	I believe you can carry wealth with the purpose of donating it, it's just that the higher level you get the harder it's going to be to carry all of the wealth without pack mules (which you can't own) or other such things. I just sort of think that it's funny that the vow pretty much makes you break it. You can't carry all of your share but your party sure as hell isn't going to carry your share to be donated, when they could just claim that sense you can't carry it out it's not your share. I would allow someone to take the vow, they would just run into issues while trying to do something about the wealth part. I sort of like the lycanthrope railroad idea. Might as well have a cause you like.
vorax20k 04-21-06, 11:14 PM	This is basicly what I would do to fix this problem with puting resrictions on it so it can only be used as intended and not for their benefit. Bag of Giving (Su): At level 21 the character will be able to create a nondimensional space in one bag the character has on their self. The contents volume limit will be equal to (char lvl * 15) and the contents weight limit will be equal to (char lvl * 75) lb. If this bag is removed from the owner’s body or damaged to the extent of additional holes the insides slowly shrink spilling all contents until the bag is completely normal. All items put into the bag must be given away to charity, anything that is removed and not sold for or given to charity causes the loss of this ability until the character atones. This acts the same as a Bag of Holding in regards to a portable hole. If the bag is destroyed in this manner, the character losses this ability until they atone.
CelestialBarbarian 04-21-06, 11:22 PM	I believe you can carry wealth with the purpose of donating it, it's just that the higher level you get the harder it's going to be to carry all of the wealth without pack mules (which you can't own) or other such things. I just sort of think that it's funny that the vow pretty much makes you break it. You can't carry all of your share but your party sure as hell isn't going to carry your share to be donated, when they could just claim that sense you can't carry it out it's not your share. I think the rules on what you can carry are pretty specific and don't allow the carrying of wealth, but it's pretty silly to not be able to even carry wealth when you're suppose to donate it. :) I would allow someone to take the vow, they would just run into issues while trying to do something about the wealth part. I sort of like the lycanthrope railroad idea. Might as well have a cause you like. Yes, I love when players come up with cool ideas like that. I wish more of them would. :)
CelestialBarbarian 04-21-06, 11:23 PM	This is basicly what I would do to fix this problem with puting resrictions on it so it can only be used as intended and not for their benefit. Bag of Giving (Su): At level 21 the character will be able to create a nondimensional space in one bag the character has on their self. The contents volume limit will be equal to (char lvl * 15) and the contents weight limit will be equal to (char lvl * 75) lb. If this bag is removed from the owner’s body or damaged to the extent of additional holes the insides slowly shrink spilling all contents until the bag is completely normal. All items put into the bag must be given away to charity, anything that is removed and not sold for or given to charity causes the loss of this ability until the character atones. This acts the same as a Bag of Holding in regards to a portable hole. If the bag is destroyed in this manner, the character losses this ability until they atone. It seems needlessly complicated, and doesn't solve the problem for non-epic ascetics.
Mist of Shadows 04-22-06, 03:13 AM	Not only does it not solve the issue with the non astetic it is a magical item no matter how you slice it thus not allowed. If you can't carry the wealth you can't donate it, rather silly really but hey never said wizards didn't make mistakes. (cough serpent kingdoms cough)
Retiarius 04-22-06, 03:25 AM	In the game that I'm running an ascetic monk, the other players' characters simply carry my character's share until it can be donated. After all, they aren't prevented from using magic items such as portable holes, Heward's handy haversacks and bags of holding. Why bother with a more complex solution?
CelestialBarbarian 04-22-06, 03:28 AM	Not only does it not solve the issue with the non astetic it is a magical item no matter how you slice it thus not allowed. Yup. If I'm going to allow the ascetic to have a magic item to allow donations, I'd just as soon go with one that transports the coins and gems to the charity and doesn't allow the ascetic to get them back. If you can't carry the wealth you can't donate it, rather silly really but hey never said wizards didn't make mistakes. (cough serpent kingdoms cough) :rofl:
CelestialBarbarian 04-22-06, 03:32 AM	In the game that I'm running an ascetic monk, the other players' characters simply carry my character's share until it can be donated. After all, they aren't prevented from using magic items such as portable holes, Heward's handy haversacks and bags of holding. Why bother with a more complex solution? It's great that the other PCs are willing to carry your share. I've played in all too many groups, however, where nobody would have done that. In the group I run, however, where all the PCs have a good alignment, nobody would have a problem with carrying an ascetic's share of the treasure until donation. :)
Mist of Shadows 04-22-06, 03:44 PM	I wouldn't have a problem with carrying the astetics share but at some point I would probably start scamming money. Either that or I would stop telling the party when things were money.
WarDragon 04-25-06, 07:09 PM	They do get some huge ability score boosts, you know. Put one of those in Strength (a primary ability for Monks, who seem to make up a large portion of Ascetics), and carrying your donations shouldn't be a problem.
vorax20k 04-26-06, 01:12 AM	They do get some huge ability score boosts, you know. Put one of those in Strength (a primary ability for Monks, who seem to make up a large portion of Ascetics), and carrying your donations shouldn't be a problem. Your not getting the main problem, volume! Ok maybe you'll be able to hold the weight of a million gold coins, but how are you going to bring them anywhere?
Mist of Shadows 04-26-06, 02:53 AM	It really is a question of volume, take a bag of quarters and count them, now thing about how many bags it would take to get anywhere close to a million. You couldn't fit that many coins in a truck let alone your back pack. It would taking a number of bags of holding to carry it all out. Bags of holding are almost a requirement for any high level party. Oh wait you can't have one cause it's magic. Sucks to be you. The thing that annoys me is that it's a problem long before epic and yet they didn't mention anything about that or give any suggestions on ways to carry it back to donate it.
WarDragon 04-26-06, 12:29 PM	The encumbrance rules don't care about volume, only weight.
Mist of Shadows 04-26-06, 02:12 PM	The encumbrance rules don't care about volume, only weight. And I as the dm will smack my player upside the head that says that and say you can't fit it all in your packs. It's insane. One of those instances where you have to use some logic.
Shwepie 04-26-06, 03:41 PM	The rules for donating say you only need to donate the majority of what you get, the rest can be spent however you wish. Such as transporting mass ammounts of wealth, buying your daily food (if low lvl), or getting some simple lodgings (if low lvl).
vorax20k 05-17-06, 10:21 PM	The encumbrance rules don't care about volume, only weight. Encumberance matters, you might be able to give some leway on it. Even bags of holding list how much volume it can hold, not just weight.
WeZil 05-18-06, 12:27 PM	Wouldn't a vow of poverty character do everything in his power to get his share to the people? I don't see why he wouldn't spend whatever time is needed to make the repeated trips to ensure that every bit of wealth gets to the needy unless a new threat to Good arises. Also, I don't see why a "Make a me-only bag of holding" doesn't hurt. We could call it the santa bag. And I believe the VoP rules specifically states you can (and should) carry whatever treasure you earn so long as you donate it as soon as you can.
Mist of Shadows 05-18-06, 08:37 PM	Because it's a magical item. You aren't allowed to have one at all. Nothing valueable. You get some many things for that vow (as stupid as it is) you shouldn't complain because it takes you 30 trips to haul all of the gold out of the dungeon. Or that your group is gaining exp more quickly because they are doing other mission while you travel back and forth donating gold.
Yue Ryong 05-18-06, 10:06 PM	Because it's a magical item. You aren't allowed to have one at all. Nothing valueable. You get some many things for that vow (as stupid as it is) you shouldn't complain because it takes you 30 trips to haul all of the gold out of the dungeon. Or that your group is gaining exp more quickly because they are doing other mission while you travel back and forth donating gold.It's only a magical item because it happens to be channeled through an item. If the same ability were named 'pocket dimension' and had no such requirement, would it be any different? Furthermore, what then of the simple shortsword you pick and immediately becomes a +5 weapon? Does that violate the vow?
rob_douglas 05-19-06, 12:58 AM	You could cast Genesis (can't remember if it has a material component - hope not) and then just move the stuff to your demi plane, go back to town, and remove it from the demiplane. I think what some people are suggesting is an ability of the VoP that causes 1 normal bag that the VoP character has to beceome a pocket dimension. It only works for the VoP character, so it is not a magic item any more than his staff (he can't use a short sword or any weapon but a staff). I still have problems with the permanent, nonmagical, enhancement bonuses to abilities (Ex - works in an AMF). They sound like inherent bonuses to me - but are not limited as they should be that way. The linear scaling of those same bonuses is also a problem, because access to items that grant the same is actually more limited. It doesn't take into account the cost in time and XP needed. Does everyone realize that by the rules, there is no place you can just BUY an epic item when you get the cash. The highest GP Value item available over the counter is 300,000gp in a Planar Metropolis. I think the Epic VoP would be more balanced, fair, and customizable if it allowed you to expend time and XP to get some of the bonuses it is giving for free. Maybe a few more XP than for crafting items. Maybe require an Epic feat for each type of bonus you want to give - like "Improved VoP Enhancement" allows you to spend XP to increase the Enhancement bonus granted by VoP. It might seem unfair to have so many feats - and maybe the right number of feats can be figured out - but the rest of the party needs to find people with all the other Craft Epic X Feats to get all their nice bonuses too. ROB
Mist of Shadows 05-19-06, 01:56 AM	There is no reason for the bag of holding clone. Sure people think it would be nice, but cry me a river of tears you whining pin heads. you want it both ways. You want all of these great abilities but you want your cake as well. You gave up magical items, you can't use them deal with it. You took something that should be nothing more than a vow with no magic no nothing and turned it into a free lunch. You took the control out of the dm's hand for what types of magical items you get. You get the set benifits it gives you reguardless of what you do. (as long as you keep your vow) You should suffer for your choice. In other words no bags of holding for you. Something like you shouldn't get a free ride because you want people to pay you for being a begger. If you really get tired of it ask your epic mage to use a spell to give you a portable bag of holding spell effect.
vorax20k 07-19-06, 09:05 PM	how about an update or any new ideas, anyone?
Zeus-the-mighty 07-21-06, 05:51 AM	Exalted Devotion: you may choose a bonus feat from any list of bonus feats from any class you posses.
CelestialBarbarian 07-21-06, 06:42 AM	Exalted Devotion: you may choose a bonus feat from any list of bonus feats from any class you posses. What does getting to chose any bonus feat from any class you posses have to do with anything exalted, much less with Epic Vow of Poverty?
Zeus-the-mighty 07-21-06, 03:56 PM	If you own nothing, what do you spend your time doing? Improving yourself and doing good. By your nature, you should be doing good already. This ability is rewarding you for your dedicated focus to your class (usually people should have 3 at most).If you like we can make it just the feat list of the class you have the most levels in. It is something that can be taken more than once and helps keep the power curve. The Wizo is free to ignore this idea if he wants.
CelestialBarbarian 07-22-06, 01:19 AM	If you own nothing, what do you spend your time doing? Improving yourself and doing good. By your nature, you should be doing good already. This ability is rewarding you for your dedicated focus to your class (usually people should have 3 at most).If you like we can make it just the feat list of the class you have the most levels in. It is something that can be taken more than once and helps keep the power curve. The Wizo is free to ignore this idea if he wants. Spending your time doing good doesn't mean you stand around practicing abilties that lead to fighter feats or wizard feats. There's just no connection.
Zeus-the-mighty 07-22-06, 05:39 AM	there are special abilites linked to a specific class that the wizo thought up. Do those have a connection?....why should a cleric get to take exalted monk? I was expanding on this idea because there is no point in taking these more than once. Spending your time doing good doesn't mean you stand around practicing abilties that lead to fighter feats or wizard feats. There's just no connection. You need to seperate the two. You do good by doing good works. The way you acomplish good works is by being good at what you do. The way you become good at what you do?....practice. There is in fact a middle step. Again, he asked for suggestions...and here's mine. He is free to do what he pleases with it.
CelestialBarbarian 07-22-06, 09:09 AM	there are special abilites linked to a specific class that the wizo thought up. Do those have a connection?....why should a cleric get to take exalted monk? I was expanding on this idea because there is no point in taking these more than once. You need to seperate the two. You do good by doing good works. The way you acomplish good works is by being good at what you do. The way you become good at what you do?....practice. There is in fact a middle step. Again, he asked for suggestions...and here's mine. He is free to do what he pleases with it. It's been a while since I read the earlier parts of this thread and I'm not going to reread the whole thread right now, but if those ideas had a good connection I wouldn't object, and if that didn't have a good connection I probably did object. :) So you've made your suggestion and now I've made my suggestion that it has no connection to being exalted, much less to the Vow of Poverty. :D
Zeus-the-mighty 07-22-06, 03:15 PM	Fair enough
Viper3220 08-28-06, 06:24 PM	Sorry, couldn't read through all 5 pages. From what I see the Ascetic is lacking in skills compared to every other epic character. Of course the only way I know how a character ever makes a tumble check of 100 is if he has some godly insane bonus to it from magic items. Therefore, I propose a way to get +30 to probably "groups" of skills. Like Bluff (maybe?) Diplomacy and Sense Motive. The "Perception" skills, Spot Search and Listen maybe. Maybe it could even be a special ability or something to let the ascetic get +30 bonus to a couple of skills (after all, +30 isn't epic, is it? so wouldn't he still be behind in skills?). Edit: I also think Special abilities should start at level 25.
Seerow 08-28-06, 07:40 PM	Well, he does get a +20 bonus to a few skills.... Also, I'm dissapointed at the lack of Flight obtained anywhere in there. Seriously, it's necessary by Epic to fly or you're useless. Hell, it's necessary for a good half of your non-epic career.
bluemage55 08-28-06, 07:49 PM	Also, I'm dissapointed at the lack of Flight obtained anywhere in there. Seriously, it's necessary by Epic to fly or you're useless. Hell, it's necessary for a good half of your non-epic career. Spellcasting ascetics can provide their own flight. The others can bum spells off party members or use some means of changing their body so that they can fly.
Seerow 08-28-06, 08:26 PM	I dislike depency on party members for something that crucial (especially since unless the Wizard has researched something like an hour/level duration Fly, you're taking up his turn at the start of every combat), and how are you altering your body? Most Templates you have to start with (And Saint, the most logical gainable one gives you no sort of flight), and I would have thought that anything you could acquire would need money to gain. I guess I could be wrong but *shrug*
bluemage55 08-28-06, 09:27 PM	I dislike depency on party members for something that crucial (especially since unless the Wizard has researched something like an hour/level duration Fly, you're taking up his turn at the start of every combat), and how are you altering your body? Most Templates you have to start with (And Saint, the most logical gainable one gives you no sort of flight), and I would have thought that anything you could acquire would need money to gain. I guess I could be wrong but *shrug* Permanent flight can be accomplished by an epic spell. By altering their body I meant abilities like wild shape and such, or certain spells to acquire templates or take a new body (polymorph any object, true mind switch, or the template granting spells).
Yue Ryong 09-01-06, 02:04 PM	Permanent flight can be accomplished by an epic spell. By altering their body I meant abilities like wild shape and such, or certain spells to acquire templates or take a new body (polymorph any object, true mind switch, or the template granting spells).I think the point is that that still does nothing for a Fighter or Rogue.
Yue Ryong 09-01-06, 02:08 PM	You gave up magical items, you can't use them deal with it.It isn't about that. It's about an Exalted character wanting to be able to actually take all that gold that you can't carry to the poor and needy for whom you actually dedicate yourself.
Seerow 09-01-06, 02:32 PM	If you give a million goldpieces to a poorhouse, I guarantee you it won't be very poor much longer. >_>
klode_me 09-01-06, 07:00 PM	New take on call the ascetic: Exalted Guardian angel: You have a Guardian angel, which appears when you're at critically low HP. This means, when your HP is 1/10 of your total HP the Guardian angel appears, and then disappears when your HP is above 1/8 your total HP. The statistics for a Guardian angel is: From 45-70 it counts as a normal Solar with its average HP. From 70+ It counts as a Paragon Solar. When the ascetics HP becomes lower than 1/20 their normal HP the Solar(or paragon solar) They use a heal spell/-like ability on them and then do that for the following rounds until he have reached max. HP. From the first time they use it they can remain for a number of rounds equal to ascetics level, and the healing rounds count toward this... And then afterward they use their max. power to protect you from harm... Cheers klode_me
Viper3220 09-02-06, 09:43 PM	Question, if the ascetic took Brilliant energy for his unarmed attacks, would he ever be able to hurt constructs ever again? Can he choose to turn this power on or off?
andrew dunn 09-02-06, 11:27 PM	I like this progression, my only question is; why is it needed. I dont see where it says that vow of poverty stops progressing at 20th level. The book just stops giving the bennifits at that point but for all the standard classes in the PHB the progression only goes to 20. Once you achieve 20th level you dont have to switch classes or renew your devotion to a class. This is why i wonder why the ability increases, armor bonuses, and resistances apparently dont continue to increase after you hit 20th level becasue in my mind they should. the Improvements of new abilitys is a nice addition but again some of these benefits should come simply by advancing past 20th level.
Yue Ryong 09-04-06, 02:55 PM	I like this progression, my only question is; why is it needed. I dont see where it says that vow of poverty stops progressing at 20th level. The book just stops giving the bennifits at that point but for all the standard classes in the PHB the progression only goes to 20. Once you achieve 20th level you dont have to switch classes or renew your devotion to a class. This is why i wonder why the ability increases, armor bonuses, and resistances apparently dont continue to increase after you hit 20th level becasue in my mind they should. the Improvements of new abilitys is a nice addition but again some of these benefits should come simply by advancing past 20th level. It should, but it doesn't. The only ability which continues to advance past 20th level is the Bonus Feat progression. Everything else specifically grants bonuses at specific levels and does nothing further, even if those bonuses do show a clear pattern. I personally don't see the need to take an additional feat at 21st level, I'd just use the progession as it stands, but that's just me.
Brol_The_Mighty 09-06-06, 12:43 PM	I really like the Vow of Poverty, and this progression for Epic VoP is awesome. Obviously its not for every class. It'd be difficult (for at least me) to come up with a viable fighter build that utilizes the VoP. Same with a rogue. The two classes that I can see shine would be the Druid, and the Monk. Maybe a Monk Gish. That'd help with the flying problem and all. I agree with the skill bonus problem though. By Epic, everyone needs items to enhance their skills by at least +30, if not higher.
Seriphidous 09-11-06, 02:40 AM	Hi. A few points The Epic book assumes that you can keep up with magic items, even if your wizard can't crank them out. You get phenomenal amounts of cash, due to increasing numbers of encounters between levels. Go to Union, spend some cash, you're outfitted. There are far too many things that can't be defeated without maxed magic items. There are also a lot of things where it doesn't matter if you are. eVoP lets a character keep up with increasing awesomeness. Maybe it lets them surpass even the most well outfitted character. So what? Who cares if the monk has way higher stats than the fighter? If you're both trying to kill the same thing, isn't it awesome that the monk kicks ass? How much chance does a VoP character stand of developing an Epic spell? Last time I checked, Seeds of magic are items. Does the epic VoP get all the epic combat feats it wants? Vow of Poverty lets a character be awesome without having the game be about killing and looting. It just gets to be about the killing again! Sweet! Is it unfair? Maybe, if you're the bad guy! But, instead of taking the super-awesome belt of strength from the fighter, the monk can just take the cash and give it to some ****-poor town. Also, Monks take VoP. Druids take VoP. Monks don't need to fly. Druids can fly any time they want. eVoP allowing characters to fly: bad call. Peace
LordMohg 11-26-06, 03:04 AM	Having read all 5 pages of this thread, I decided to post my views of what i have seen. Then as an Epic level VoP Fighter/Rogue/Expert/Skylord/Order of the Bow initiate/Apostle of peace… Saint, I’ll list my character stats at 30th level so you can compare how your Equipped character compares. First i would like to thank WizO for this, and show how my GM and I revised it for our campaign world. Every few posts someone states that you get all this stuff for taking a simple feat. OP! OP! OP! You have to take 2 feats; Sacred Vow, then Vow of Poverty. :P This is a SIMPLE feat. Investigator [general] You have a knack for finding information. Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all gather info checks and search checks. These are not SIMPLE feats. Sacred Vow [exalted] You have willingly given yourself to the service of a good deity or cause, denying yourself an ordinary life to better serve your highest ideals. You give yourself to a GOD.. not a Force or Forces. To a cause... a cause of Goodness to do good works. Vow of Poverty [exalted] Paraphrased for content... You have taken a sacred vow to forswear material posessions...not own or use material possesions... may carry or use simple weapons, USUALLY a quarterstaff...simple clothes with no magical properties...may not use ANY magic item of any sort... Those 2 feats are a way of life, your entire life as an ascetic is living up to high ideals, doing good things sacrificing All wealth you may attain to gain items, and dealing with greedy players in your group min/maxing items. Someone said, "I cant see the other players in the group giving up the only +1 longsword to the ascetic to give away. maybe they can't buy him out, cause he doesnt have the cash to buy them out." How do you handle that when there is no ascetic in the group? do you take turns getting treasure? the ascetic will eventually get a turn. Do you FORCE the group to give it to who needs it more ? and screw the rest? Who ever gets the treasure does with it what they want, whether the fighter USES it to fight the zombies till he gets a better sword, or the ascetic gives it away to feed a family for a year, who actually BENEFITS from the sword more? After all, the ascetic is a GOOD person and should refuse to group with non-good, are your GOOD players not following thier allignment, choosing to screw the ascetic out of his share of loot, knowing it is only going to be given away to needy, hungry, poor people who want to eat? Special: …To fulfil your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use an ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) quarterstaff…. Simple weapons out of the PHB; Gauntlet, Dagger, Mace-Light, Sickle, Club, Mace-Heavy, Morningstar, Shortspear, Longspear, Quarterstaff, Spear, Crossbow-Heavy, Crossbow-Light, Dart, Javelin, Sling.......My GM and I agreed a Short bow-non composite, would be okay since a bow was in use long before crossbows were invented... a stick with a string on it is more SIMPLE than a crossbow.(house rule) So the NEW limitation on quarterstaff only is not inline with the original intent of VoP Epic Vow of Poverty Benefits AC Bonus (Su): An epic ascetic's exalted bonus to AC continues to increase by +1 for every 3 character levels beyond 18th (+11 at 21st level, +12 at 24th level, +13 at 27th level, and so forth). Standard/reasonable advancement according to BoED Resistance (Ex): An epic ascetic's resistance bonus to saving throws increases by +1 for every 4 character levels beyond 17th (+4 at 21st, +5 at 25th, +6 at 29th, and so forth). Standard/reasonable advancement according to BoED Bonus Feats: An epic ascetic gains a bonus feat every 2 levels over 20th (22nd, 24th, 26th, and so forth). These bonus feats must be selected from the following list, and the character must still meet all pre-requisites for the feats: Epic Ascetic Bonus Feats: Any exalted feat, plus Armour Skin*, Bonus Domain**, Damage Reduction*, Energy Resistance*, Epic Toughness*, Extended Life Span*, Fast Healing*, Great Charisma*, Great Constitution*, Great Dexterity*, Great Intelligence*, Great Smiting, Great Strength*, Great Wisdom*, Improved Alignment-Based Casting (good), Improved Aura of Courage, Improved Spell Resistance*, Music of the Gods, Penetrate Damage Reduction***, Perfect Health, Planar Turning, Positive Energy Aura, Spontaneous Domain Access**, Widen Aura of Courage.[/i] * This feat can be taken multiple times, its effects stack. ** This feat can be taken multiple times, applying to a new domain each time. *** This feat can be taken multiple times, applying to a different type of special material each time. Too fast a progression, and some feats just don’t SEEM to fit. We went to 1/3 levels and shortened the list. All ability ones deleted... We get too many as is. AC is ridiculous, armor skin went bye bye. Bonus domain…deleted. Energy resists… cya. Planar turning… Odd, it had to go. Epic Ascetic Bonus Feats: Any exalted feat, plus Extended Life Span*, Fast Healing*, Improved Alignment-Based Casting (good), Improved Aura of Courage, Improved Spell Resistance*, Music of the Gods, Penetrate Damage Reduction***, Perfect Health, Positive Energy Aura, Widen Aura of Courage. Holy Wake (Ex): Once he attains 22nd level, an epic ascetic character does not need to sleep and is immune to all natural and magical sleep effects. An epic ascetic spellcaster still requires eight hours of rest before he can replenish his spells, usually spending the time in a meditative trance. Bad name, and attainable through class skills. We deleted this. Exalted Strike (Su): An epic ascetic's exalted strike ability continues to increase as he gains levels. The enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls increases by +1 for every 3 character levels beyond 20th. At 23rd level, any weapon the character wields effectively becomes a +6 weapon, and can overcome the damage reduction of a creature as though it were an epic weapon. At 26th level, the ascetic’s attacks are considered to have been made with a silver or cold iron weapon, whichever would be more beneficial. At 32nd level, any weapon the character wields is considered to have the holy ability, dealing extra damage to evil creatures. At 41st level, any weapon the character wields is considered to have the holy power ability. We liked this. Considering any non VoP can switch out weapons any time to deal with evil foes according to what they need to use to fight them. It is good to have a small repertoire. Ability Score Enhancement (Ex): An epic ascetic's ability score enhancements continue to increase beyond 20th level. At 23rd level, his existing bonuses increase by +2 and he gains a +2 bonus to a fifth ability score. At 27th level, he gains a +2 bonus to those five scores and a +2 bonus to a sixth ability score. The bonus for each ability score then increases by +2 for every 4 character levels he achieves. Standard/reasonable advancement according to BoED. No belts of str, no headbands of intellect, no gloves of dex, no periapt of wisdom, no cloaks of charisma. Damage Reduction (Su): At 24th level, the epic ascetic’s damage reduction improves to 10/epic and evil. For every 10 levels the ascetic gains beyond 24th, his damage reduction improves by 5 points (15/epic & evil at 34th, 20/epic & evil at 44th, etc.). Standard/reasonable advancement according to BoED Deflection (Su): An epic ascetic's deflection bonus to AC increases by +1 at 24th level, and every 6 levels thereafter. Standard/reasonable advancement according to BoED Inherent Bonus (Ex): Upon reaching 24th level, an epic ascetic gains a +1 inherent bonus to all of his ability scores. This bonus increases by +1 for every 2 levels the ascetic achieves beyond 24th (+2 at 26th level, +3 at 28th level, +4 at 30th level, to a maximum of +5 at 32nd level). We debated this one for a long time. Then decided to keep it. Many of our other characters have better inherent at a better progression. Get a wizard in a group and give him a rod of excellent magic (deduct 2000xp for casting xp required spells) yeah sure he is 4 levels behind the group but he has + 5 to all his scores at 25th level, the others in the group are 29th level.. so he now earns More xp per encounter than the others and will soon catch back up Natural Armour (Ex): An epic ascetic's natural armour bonus to AC increases by +1 for every 8 character levels beyond 16th (24th, 32nd, 40th, and so forth). Standard/reasonable advancement according to BoED. Other players can wear an amulet of natural armor much better much sooner. Holy Aura (Su): An epic ascetic of 25th level and above is surrounded at all times by the effects of the holy aura spell. This aura provides all of the usual benefits of the spell to any good creature within 20 feet of the ascetic. Cast the spell, or become a Saint… Deleted Energy Resistance (Ex): At 28th level, an epic ascetic's energy resistance increases to 30. Beginning at 35th level, an epic ascetic chooses one energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire or sonic). The epic ascetic is now immune to that energy type. An epic ascetic chooses another energy type for every 5 levels beyond 35th (40th, 45th, 50th and 55th). Standard/reasonable advancement according to BoED… somewhat. Makes up for not being able to use rings of energy resist/immunity that ALL of the other players have at least 1-4 of. Timeless Body (Ex): Upon attaining 29th level, an epic ascetic no longer takes penalties to his ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that he has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the ascetic still dies of old age when his time is up. Gandhi died of old age didn’t he? Mother Teresa? Oh yeah this is fantasy where gods actually take an interest in their followers. What good god/gods wouldn’t want the ascetic looking as good as he can for as long as he is alive. Fast Healing (Ex): Upon reaching 32nd level, an epic ascetic’s regeneration ability improves. He gains the fast healing ability, healing an amount of damage per round equal to (ascetic’s level -5)/5, rounded down. After spending as much time in meditation in his life at this point, It is reasonable to gain this. Swiftness (Su): Upon reaching 36th level, the epic ascetic’s speed doubles (this does not stack with any magical or supernatural enhancements to speed) and he gains the evasion ability (as the monk class feature). He also gains a +20 competence bonus on Balance, Climb, Jump and Tumble checks. Three times per day, he can act as though under the effects of a haste spell for 20 rounds. Double =3.0 edition… Give a enhancement bonus like 30-50, or set a speed of 60. If you are a human monk 20th level, you have a 90 speed, then double that makes 180 land speed. Monks speed is (ex) not magical or supernatural so it stacks with this Swiftness. Tongues (Ex): At 39th level, an epic ascetic can communicate with any creature, as though under the effects of a tongues spell. Through meditation and the need to be able to communicate his desire to give the ogre farmer this +5 platemail he took off the troll that killed all his horses. Divine Ascension (Ex): Upon reaching 40th level, the ascetic is rewarded with a small measure of divine power for his faith and endurance. He gains a divine rank of 0, which grants him the following benefits: This is a great idea… in theory. After surviving to 40th level, spending a lifetime doing charitable works. Spreading the word of all that is good and holy in the world, forsaking all the greed normally associated with adventuring. At 40th level I am sure many of the lives he has saved throughout the countryside hold him in very high regard for all he/she has done. This is an excellent idea to take it to the next level. However, we change this up and made it a possibility rather than a guaranteed advancement. Aura of Menace (Su): Beginning at 43rd level, a righteous aura surrounds the epic ascetic when he is in combat or angry. Any hostile creatures within a 20-foot radius of the ascetic must succeed on a Will save to resist its effects. The save DC is equal to 12 + half the ascetic’s character level + the ascetic’s Charisma modifier. Those who fail take a penalty on attacks, AC and saves equal to (ascetic’s level)/5, rounded down. This penalty lasts for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the ascetic. A creature that has successfully resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by the ascetic’s aura for 24 hours. Kewl ability. Nuff said Special Ability: Upon reaching 45th level, and every 5 levels thereafter, the epic ascetic chooses one ability from the following list. Exalted Banestrike (Su) – Any weapon the ascetic wields (including natural weapons or unarmed strikes) deals grievous damage to undead and evil outsiders. Against such foes, the ascetic’s attacks deal an extra 4d6 points of damage. Exalted Dodge (Ex) – When struck by an opponent the ascetic has designated as the target of his Dodge feat, he may make a Reflex save (DC 10 + damage dealt) to negate all damage from the attack. Exalted Druid (Su) – While in wild shape, the ascetic gains all the extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the creature whose form he adopts. In addition, the ascetic can assume the form of magical beasts. Exalted Evasion (Su) – Any physical attack or individually targeted spell directed at the ascetic has a 20% miss chance. Area effects that include the ascetic have a similar chance to be ineffective. If an attack overcomes the miss chance, the ascetic still gets the benefit of a saving throw (if applicable). Exalted Monk (Su) – The ascetic’s unarmed strikes are treated as slashing weapons with the keen, lawful and vorpal qualities. The ascetic can choose to deal bludgeoning damage instead of slashing damage, but the vorpal quality does not apply to the attack. In addition, the ascetic’s unarmed damage increases by one die step. Exalted Paladin (Su) – The ascetic’s aura of courage grants a +8 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects and extends to all allies within 100 feet. In addition, the ascetic can smite evil an additional three times per day, and gets an extra three points of damage per class level on a successful smite. Exalted Radiance (Su) – The ascetic automatically dispels any darkness effect that comes into contact with his Nimbus of Light. In addition, undead within the brightly lit area of the Nimbus take an additional 2d8 points of holy damage each round with no save. Exalted Sight (Su) – The ascetic is under the constant effects of a greater arcane sight spell. Exalted Warrior (Ex) – The ascetic's base attack bonus increases to +20/+15/+10/+5. This increase is applied before Epic modifiers. Exalted Weapon Mastery (Ex) – When striking with a simple or natural weapon, the ascetic gains the benefits of the Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialisation and Improved Critical feats.[/size] We kept this as written. Except you have class levels in the ability, i.e. pally, druid,fighter. And started the progression at 35. Call the Ascetic (Su) Once per day the ascetic character can call Pistis Sophia The Ascetic, she help the ascetic character for 5 hours, she arrive 2d6 Min. after she is called, if the ascetic character is dead by then (for some reason, monsters, traps etc.), there happen something special, she begins to search after those who killed the ascetic, and when she finds them, and fight them, then after 1d6 rounds the least champion of celestia arrive, and after that have arrived, then 1d6 rounds after the second least champion of celestia arrive, this continue untill every champion of celestia has arrived. Except one: the watcher, he shall watch over the layers they have leaved behind, untill they comes back. When they are done with those who killed the ascetic, they take home to their layer of celestia again. Maybe it should be Min. per ascetic character level/5 or maybe even rounds per ascetic level/5, but in this kind of case i think he/she could divide the time out to several times per day. I agree with whoever it was that said calling 6 of the 7 Gods from heaven is a bit much. However, this is a wicked nice revenge on those who killed the ascetic. And usable only once per month, or year. Exalted Resurrection (Su) Once per month the ascetic character is brought back to life as though by a true resurrectionspell. Exalted Grace (Ex) The Ascetic's pre-Epic base save bonuses increase to Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +12. Greater Exalted Grace (Ex or Su?) The Ascetic may add his Charisma modifier as a Sacred bonus to saving throws. Prerequisite: Exalted Grace. Spell-like Ability The Ascetic gains a spell-like ability. He may choose any 0-3rd level spell to be usable at will, any 4th-6th level spell usable 3/day, or any 7th-9th level spell usable 1/day. The spell chosen may not have the Evil descriptor, and gains the Good descriptor in addition to any it may already possess. You may select a spell modified by a metamagic feat, but the spell's adjusted level is used for determining daily uses (spells whose adjusted level is over 9th may be used 1/week), and the total metamagic adjustment of all spell-like abilities may never be more than the Ascetic's Charisma modifier. You may not select spells using Heighten, Fortify, or similar metamagics. A spell-like ability may be seleced multiple times to gain additional uses. The ability's caster level is equal to the Ascetic's HD, and its save DC is Charisma based. If Wish, Limited Wish, or Miracle is selected, the XP cost must be payed in full for each use. Exalted Magic (Ex or Su?) Any damaging spell the Ascetic casts is treated as Purifed and Consecrated, without increasing the casting time or using a higher-level spell slot. In addition, he recieves a +2 bonus to overcome the spell resistance of evil creatures; this stacks with Spell Penetration and similar effects. The benefits of this power do not apply to any Spell-like or Supernatural abilities the Ascetic may possess. It needs to be (ex) since most supernatural abilities require concentration, or an action to perform. But it doesn’t really matter, since you cant cast in a AMF, this goes away in an AMF if it is (su) Epic Exalted Companion (Ex) The Ascetic's familiar, animal companion, or special mount gains the Half-Celestial template, and recieves Epic Planar Creature and Legendary Planar Creature as bonus feats (both found here). (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=158114) If the Ascetic has more than one of these creatures (for example, a multiclass Wizard/Druid, with both a familiar and an animal companion), he must select only one to recieve the benefit (though he can select this ability again to grant it to another). Exalted Cohort (Ex) A powerful creature of good, such as a Celestial, high-level Paladin, or metallic dragon, pledges itself to the Ascetic's service. The creature's exact level of power is determined by the Ascetic's Leadership score, as defined under the Leadership and Epic Leadership feats, with the exception that its effective level is considered three lower than normal (for Leadership purposes only). The Ascetic does not attract followers by selecting this ability. The cohort gained thus is in addition to any he may already have by virtue of taking the aforementioned feats. Exalted Lifespark (Su?) You are constantly under the effects of Deathward. Additionally, you may Turn Undead, as a Cleric of 1/2 your level, a number of times each day equal to your Charisma modifier. If you can already Turn Undead, you Turn as if you were 5 levels higher in the class that granted the ability, and you recieve Extra Turning as a bonus feat. Improved Exalted Strike (Su) You may select a number of weapon enhancements, whose total "plus value" cannot exceed your Charisma modifier, to be applied to any weapon you wield, including natural weapons and unarmed strikes. You need not spend the entire amount at once, and may select new enhancements if your Charisma permanantly increases in the future. Once chosen, these enhancements cannot be changed; this ability cannot be taken more than once. Note that selecting Holy or Holy Power would be redundant. Example: an Ascetic with 30 Cha (+10 modifier) could choose to make his weapons (and fists, claws, etc.) Speed (+4), Brilliant Energy (+4), and Flaming Burst (+2). If his Charisma later permanantly increases to 32, he could add the Spell-storing property, as well.[/size] No issues with these. Now for my VoP character I play. Saint Laucian Nailo, The Ascetic Medium Outsider(Native,Good) Hit dice: 7d10,4d6,7d6,2d8,10d4+232(365 hp) 4ftr/3skylord/4rogue/7expert/10apostle of peace/2order bow initiate Initiative: +15 Speed: 30ft. Swim 40ft. Armor Class: 71 (10 base, 10 Dex, 20 epic bracers, 3 shield, 5 natural, 6 deflection, 7 insight, 10 enhancement), touch 43,flatfooted 71, against brilliant weapons 61. Base attack/grapple: +23/+29 Attack: any simple weapon or unarmed +29(weapon dmg +10, +2d6 holy) ranged +36 Space/reach: 5ft/5ft Special attacks: [/b]spells, spell like abilities, turn undead, censure demons,emanations, calming touch, Special qualities: [/b] Holy radiance, Mind sheilding, weapon breaking, calm emotions, lowlight vision x 4 distance, 60' darkvision, immune to acid, cold, electricity, petrification, sonic and fire, Contsant aura x 2 magic circle against evil and globe of invulnerability, Positive engery aura, Tongues, DR 10/epic and evil, fast healing 10, freedom of movement, doesnt eat sleap drink or breath. Saves: Fort 33(37 vs poison), Ref 40, Will 34 not subject to mind efecting or compulsions. Abilities: Str 20, Dex 32, Con 29, Int 25, Wis 26, Cha 30 Skills: Balance 19, Concentration 21, Diplomacy 45, Disable device 37, Escape artist 22, Handle animal 20, Hide 20, Knowledge religion 37, Listen 20, Move silent 20, Open lock 15, Ride 30, Search 40, Spekllcraft 30, Spot 27(31 airborn), Tumble 18. feats:Sacre vow, Vow of poverty, weapon focus (shortbow), nimbus of light, point blank shot, sstigmata, precise shot, rapid shot, ranged pin, holy radience, vow of nonviolence, weapon spec (shortbow), vow of peace, improved precise shot, sanctify martial strike, ranged disarm, exalted turning, mounted combat, vow of purity, mounted archery, Epic vow of poverty, spell focus good, permanent emanation (end to strife, BoED), improved mounted combat(+2), escew material components, ignore material components,Turn undead (unearthed arcana for expert, so expert levels stack with apostle for turning) Epic spell casting (divine) Environment: any... especially likes bodies of water, or poor vilages Organization: Usually surrounded by poor commoners, or accompanied by 1d8 low level ascetics. And almost always His Friend a Celestial Pegasus, Bob. Challenge rating: 30 ish Treasure: hahahahaahhahhhaaaa... really see Equipment below. Alignment: Chaotic Good Advancement: By class Nailo is an ascetic aquatic elf that roams the planet searching out all that is evil and undead, in an attempt to rid the planet of the vile creatures. He despises the greed and violence that the pursute of money usually dictates. He always does anything in his power to help anyone in need, and any treasure he comes accros along his journies is given to the next church or needy family he sees. It is common for him to donate tens of thousand in gold and items to those individuals at any time. Combat: In battle Nailo is usually weilding his simple shortbow atop his friend, bob, the celestial Pegasus. Holy power(su) the save dcs of all the saints special attacks, including spells and spell like abilities, and supernatural, and extraordinary abilities increase by +2 Holy touch(Su) Any weapon Nailo uses is considered a +6 Coldiron/silver/holy weapon. dealing extra 16 holy damage to evil and 1d8 to undead and evil outsiders. ant evil creature striking Nailo with natural weapons takes damge as if Nailo stuck him with an attack. Turn Undead(su): Turns as a 17th level cleric. All undead he turns also take 5d6 exalted damage in addition to being turned. Positive aura(see emanations) Emanations: End to strife(su)-- 80' radius surrounding him, all creatures realise dire consequences will happen to them if they take any hostile action... they take 20d6 subdual damage for each action taken within the zone. Holy Radiance(su)-- all undead take 1d4+1d6 damage when approaching withing 20 feet of Nailo. Holy radiance feat and helm of brilliance. Calm emotions(su)-- in a 20' radius surrounding him all creatures are subject to the calm emotions spell. DC=16+1/2 HD+CHa). Or it can be forced upon any creature by Nailo touching them. Positive energy aura(su)-- allows him to contstantly turn as a 7th level cleric if they approach within 15' all undead he turns take an additional 5d6 exalted damage in addition to being turned. Weapon breaking: any weapon that stikes Nailo has a chance of being destroyed before it causes nailo damage. DC=(16+1/2hd+con) Close Combat archery: Nailo does not provoke attacks of opportunity by using a bow within a threatened square. Ride the winds: While fighting in windy conditions Nailo only suffers these penalties for archery. -0 in winds, -2 in severe, -4 in wind storms, -8 in hurricanes. One of Nailo's favorite tactics is to use his archery skills to Disarm his opponents, or Pins them to nearby structures until they sucumb to his calming emotions to end the fight. If they are an evil creature, he detains them long enough to use his suppirior Diplomacy skills in an attempt to make them see the light, and change thier allignment to good. He then will allow them to leave, and make ammends for thier evil ways. Spells: Nailo can cast divine spells on the apostle of peace class list as a 12th level caster. With a +2 to all DCs, +6 if they dont cause lethal damage, +4 if it is good, +8 if it is good and doesnt cause lethal damage Spell like abilities: At will-Guidance, resistance, virtue, bless. CL =HD saves are Cha based Equipment: Because of the Prestige class, Apostle of peace, Nailo is able to wear Protective magic items, However, he is unable to activate any function, or use the item for any purpose other than its passive protection abilities. Items Worn. Helm of brilliance(gives fire resistance-protective), Cloak of resistance +10(resistance-protective), Amulet of soul fire(Immune to death effects, death spells, energy drain, negative engery effects), Bracers of Epic armor +20(armor bonus 20, overrides the exalted AC bonus), Ring of Force sheild(+3 shield bonus-protective), Ring of major elemental immunity(energy resistances-protective), a Simple Shortbow, 5 quivers or basic arrows, 5 quivers of Blunt arrows (deal subdual damage), To help him carry back loot to be distributed, Nailo has made arrangements with various churches and charitible organizations, they have provided Bags of holding which they gave to Nailo's friend, Bob to carry. Since Nailo himself cannot use the Bag, not even to load them up, he often talks the evil doers into loading up thier loot for him, or finds local good creatures, or even his party members, to assist him in this endeavor, since his pegasus has no hands to open the bags.
saucercrab 11-28-06, 08:22 PM	LordMohg, Regarding the PC you listed, a couple things: 1. Shortbow is a martial weapon, so can't be used at all. 2. The apostle of peace's ability to wear protective magic items directly contradicts the Vow of Poverty itself. My group always figured the text in the PrC write-up to be a typo & no items s/b allowed. I take it your DM knows about the rules conflict, but does allow this?
rob_douglas 11-28-06, 11:10 PM	Re: the shortbow - he covered that in his post. His DM house-ruled it to be simple, as long as it was not composite (no STR bonus). Re: Apostle of Peace - it sure needs a clarification. They have to have Vow of Poverty, and yet they have this ability to use some magic items....I could see someone thinking this was intentional by the designers. But it does also seem redundant, as they get many of the protections they could get from items...I think that is worth a sage advice... ROB
saucercrab 11-29-06, 01:22 AM	My apologies, then. I skimmed his post & went straight to the stat block. As for my second point now, I'm guessing his DM is giving the apostle of peace's armor non-restrictions precedent over the VoP, & allowing defensive magic items.
summerstar 11-30-06, 02:06 PM	Dealing with VoP characters holding wealth in order to donate it... I'd recommend that DM's issue 1 less share of treasure throughout the game. For example four PC's tackle an encounter with one of the PC's being a VoP, instead of the bad guys dropping a normal amount of treasure, the DM would reduce the total treasure amount by 25%. This approach assumes that a character with VoP picks-up nothing from the treasure found. I don't think an epic VoP should be an uber philanthropist. Instead, I imagine an ascetic character like David Carradine's wandering Kung-Fu TV character. He never carried wealth to give to the poor, instead he would use his skills and abilities to aid the oppressed. The lack of the need to store, carry, and protect treasure before it's converted to a player's power (usually through magical items) is an advantage for a VoP character. However, I believe this advantage is off-set by the VoP not being able to own property and thus have a secure stronghold or base of operations. This insecurity is a disadvantage. The lack of a stronghold also diminishes the VoP character's ability to use the Leadership feat.
summerstar 11-30-06, 02:12 PM	Cool. After continued discussion on this feat, I'd like to include what I think is one better balanced and a more natural progression of the original Vow of Poverty feat: Epic Vow of Poverty [Epic, Exalted] You have renewed your vow to forswear material possessions. Prerequisites: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, character level 21+. Benefit: You continue to gain bonuses to your Armor Class, attacks, ability scores and saving throws, as well as bonus feats, all depending on your character level. See below for details. Special: To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use an ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) quarterstaff. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals). You may carry and use a spell component pouch. You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll or staff, or ride on your companion’s ebon fly. You may not, however, “borrow” a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a scroll, wand or staff. If you break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it. Epic Vow of Poverty Benefits AC Bonus (Su): An epic ascetic's exalted bonus to AC continues to increase by +1 for every three character levels beyond 18th (+11 at 21st level, +12 at 24th level, +13 at 27th level, and so forth). Resistance (Ex): An epic ascetic's resistance bonus to saving throws increases by +1 for every four character levels beyond 17th (+4 at 21st, +5 at 25th, +6 at 29th and so forth). Bonus Feats: An epic ascetic gains a bonus exalted or epic exalted feat every two levels over 20th (22nd, 24th, 26th and so forth). Exalted Strike (Su): An epic ascetic's exalted strike ability continues to increase as he gains levels. The enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls increases by +1 for every three character levels beyond 20th. At 23rd level, any weapon the character wields effectively becomes a +6 weapon, and can overcome the damage reduction of a creature as though it were an epic weapon. Ability Score Enhancement (Ex): An epic ascetic's ability score enhancements continue to increase beyond 20th level. At 23rd level, his existing bonuses increase by +2 and he gains a +2 bonus to a fifth ability score. At 27th level, he gains a +2 bonus to those five scores and a +2 bonus to the sixth ability score. The bonus for each ability score then increases by +2 for every four character levels after 27th level. [Suggestion: to reduce this progression, you can make it +1 every four levels or stop it after 27th level.] Damage Reduction (Su): At 24th level, the epic ascetic’s damage reduction improves to 10/epic and evil. For every ten character levels the ascetic gains beyond 24th, his damage reduction improves by 5 points (15/epic and evil at 34th, 20/epic and evil at 44th, etc.). Deflection (Su): An epic ascetic's deflection bonus to AC increases by +1 at 24th level, and every six character levels thereafter. Natural Armor (Ex): An epic ascetic's natural armor bonus to AC increases by +1 for every eight character levels beyond 16th (24th, 32nd, 40th and so forth). Energy Resistance (Ex): An epic ascetic's energy resistance increases by 10 for every seven character levels after 20th level (27th, 34th, 41st and so forth). Sweet, neat and petite. If you need to add special abilities, add more epic exalted feats. The epic ascetic will need a larger selection soon enough. Some may think that it needs more inherent special abilities, but I don't see that. Most epic prestige classes do not include new abilities that do not progress along a certain pattern. I see no reason to ignore that precedent for just a feat. I agree this is a more appropriately powered VoP progression. The suggested change to reduce the continuing increases to ability scores is necessary to keep the power levels balanced. I'd also recommend the elimination of additional exalted feats. Remove that exalted feat progression entirely from the Epic VoP feat for greater balance. An additional recommendation would be to change the eneregy resistance progression to: lv 27: universal energy resistance 25 lv 34: immunity to one form of energy (acid, sonic, cold, fire, electricity) lv 41: immunity to a 2nd type of energy lv 48: immunity to a 3rd type of energy lv 55: immunity to a 4th type of energy lv 62: immunity to a 5th type of energy
summerstar 11-30-06, 02:41 PM	I like this progression, my only question is; why is it needed. I dont see where it says that vow of poverty stops progressing at 20th level. The book just stops giving the bennifits at that point but for all the standard classes in the PHB the progression only goes to 20. Once you achieve 20th level you dont have to switch classes or renew your devotion to a class. This is why i wonder why the ability increases, armor bonuses, and resistances apparently dont continue to increase after you hit 20th level becasue in my mind they should. the Improvements of new abilitys is a nice addition but again some of these benefits should come simply by advancing past 20th level. It should, but it doesn't. The only ability which continues to advance past 20th level is the Bonus Feat progression. Everything else specifically grants bonuses at specific levels and does nothing further, even if those bonuses do show a clear pattern. I personally don't see the need to take an additional feat at 21st level, I'd just use the progession as it stands, but that's just me. I agree with Yue Ryong's intreptation of the current VoP feat. I also a agree that an epic VoP feat is necessary to progress into epic level powers. For a non-PC to gain epic level equipment they would need to have epic item creation feats or access to those that do in order to covert their non-item wealth into power. Beyond the epic item feats, I'd suggest the Epic Ancestral Daisho also indicates a new feat is necessary for a similiar power progression. I can however see the other side of this arguement. The FAQ suggests that a new feat is not needed for epic progression of the ancestral relic feat.[Main3.5FAQ. p21] This ruling doesn't seem consistent with Epic Ancestral Daisho feat published by Andy Collins in Epic Insights 8/11/02. My feeling is that balance is better served with an Epic Feat required to progress the VoP.
WarDragon 11-30-06, 02:50 PM	Dealing with VoP characters holding wealth in order to donate it... I'd recommend that DM's issue 1 less share of treasure throughout the game. For example four PC's tackle an encounter with one of the PC's being a VoP, instead of the bad guys dropping a normal amount of treasure, the DM would reduce the total treasure amount by 25%. This approach assumes that a character with VoP picks-up nothing from the treasure found. I don't think an epic VoP should be an uber philanthropist. Instead, I imagine an ascetic character like David Carradine's wandering Kung-Fu TV character. He never carried wealth to give to the poor, instead he would use his skills and abilities to aid the oppressed. The lack of the need to store, carry, and protect treasure before it's converted to a player's power (usually through magical items) is an advantage for a VoP character. However, I believe this advantage is off-set by the VoP not being able to own property and thus have a secure stronghold or base of operations. This insecurity is a disadvantage. The lack of a stronghold also diminished the VoP character's ability to use the Leadership feat. Uh.... the part about giving all the wealth you acquire to the needy is the entire rationale for this being an Exalted feat. The special powers aren't from pure self-discipline like a monk's, they're rewards granted to you by the gods and lords of the Upper Planes for your extreme generosity and selflessness.
summerstar 11-30-06, 02:57 PM	Whether guaranteed bonuses will outpace wealth-based bonuses really depends on the extent of those bonuses. Classes such as the (illithid) slayer, for example, have a narrow focus, but within that focus, are significantly more powerful. In this case, wealth-based characters have only a slightly narrowed focus (that is, they can only take advantage of their magic items outside of AMF and are endangered by MDJ/Dispel), and so should not comparatively be far stronger. But in the event that you do believe that a VoP character should have fewer "guaranteed" bonuses than magic items would otherwise grant, how much less would you believe is appropriate? ECL -1? ECL -2? Less? The question simply boils down to a simple factor: game balance. Since EVoP, is after all, an unofficial feat, the point is to set it at a level that feels fair for most players' campaigns. I agree. You don't want the character with the Epic Vow of Poverty to either outshine or be outshined by the rest of the party. I don't think that the suggested wealth levels really correspond to certain bonuses, so I think it's hard to say that the Epic Vow of Poverty should be ECL minus some number or other. I think it's more an art than a science in trying to balance these things, and I simpy wondered if maybe the second Epic Vow of Poverty might balance things better with a slighly slower progression of benefits. I just don't see other characters gaining steady bonuses anywhere near as quickly. I also agree with this approach. I'd suggest that we take the modified Epic Vow of Poverty feat and reduce the value of its benefits by an addition -3 levels. It takes time and resources for characters to convert their wealth to power. At extremely high levels, the EXP for item creation is outrageously expensive. The reduction in power for the VoP would reflect that their non-VoP colleagues are still trying to convert that last dragon horde into some useful benefit. It may take as long as 2-3 levels for this conversion to occur.
summerstar 11-30-06, 03:41 PM	Uh.... the part about giving all the wealth you acquire to the needy is the entire rationale for this being an Exalted feat. The special powers aren't from pure self-discipline like a monk's, they're rewards granted to you by the gods and lords of the Upper Planes for your extreme generosity and selflessness. It might have been designed around the D&D (Oriental-based fighting) monk, but I don't think so. I think it was built around the concept of the pacifistic asceticism of medieval Catholic monk instead. There are several orders of these monks who did exactly what the feat requires in pursuit of a more spiritual life. All the rampant optimizing of the game often really damages the underlying fantasy feel of the game. :( - From the Feats forum discussion on the limits of poverty. I can see your point, Wardragon, but I prefer a different intrepation of the exalted vow feats. Vow of Chastity, Vow of Abstinence, etc are all about deprivation of worldly pleasures. I tend to think the exhalted power of the VoP feat comes from the acestic deprivation element rather than than a power of philanthropy.
bluemage55 11-30-06, 03:50 PM	I can see your point, Wardragon, but I prefer a different intrepation of the exalted vow feats. Vow of Chastity, Vow of Abstinence, etc are all about deprivation of worldly pleasures. I tend to think the exhalted power of the VoP feat comes from the acestic deprivation element rather than than a power of philanthropy. That might be your interpretation, but the Book of Exalted Deeds states that an ascetic must be as extreme in the works of charity as they are in self-denial. For an ascetic to simply give their party members the treasure without taking any to donate to charity is not living up to the VoP.
summerstar 11-30-06, 05:17 PM	After continued discussion on this feat, I'd like to include what I think is one better balanced and a more natural progression of the original Vow of Poverty feat: Epic Vow of Poverty [Epic, Exalted] You have renewed your vow to forswear material possessions. Prerequisites: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, character level 21+. Benefit: You continue to gain bonuses to your Armor Class, attacks, ability scores and saving throws, as well as bonus feats, all depending on your character level. See below for details. Special: To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use an ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) quarterstaff. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals). You may carry and use a spell component pouch. You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll or staff, or ride on your companion’s ebon fly. You may not, however, “borrow” a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a scroll, wand or staff. If you break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it. Epic Vow of Poverty Benefits AC Bonus (Su): An epic ascetic's exalted bonus to AC continues to increase by +1 for every three character levels beyond 18th (+11 at 21st level, +12 at 24th level, +13 at 27th level, and so forth). Resistance (Ex): An epic ascetic's resistance bonus to saving throws increases by +1 for every four character levels beyond 17th (+4 at 21st, +5 at 25th, +6 at 29th and so forth). Bonus Feats: An epic ascetic gains a bonus exalted or epic exalted feat every two levels over 20th (22nd, 24th, 26th and so forth). Exalted Strike (Su): An epic ascetic's exalted strike ability continues to increase as he gains levels. The enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls increases by +1 for every three character levels beyond 20th. At 23rd level, any weapon the character wields effectively becomes a +6 weapon, and can overcome the damage reduction of a creature as though it were an epic weapon. Ability Score Enhancement (Ex): An epic ascetic's ability score enhancements continue to increase beyond 20th level. At 23rd level, his existing bonuses increase by +2 and he gains a +2 bonus to a fifth ability score. At 27th level, he gains a +2 bonus to those five scores and a +2 bonus to the sixth ability score. The bonus for each ability score then increases by +2 for every four character levels after 27th level. [Suggestion: to reduce this progression, you can make it +1 every four levels or stop it after 27th level.] Damage Reduction (Su): At 24th level, the epic ascetic’s damage reduction improves to 10/epic and evil. For every ten character levels the ascetic gains beyond 24th, his damage reduction improves by 5 points (15/epic and evil at 34th, 20/epic and evil at 44th, etc.). Deflection (Su): An epic ascetic's deflection bonus to AC increases by +1 at 24th level, and every six character levels thereafter. Natural Armor (Ex): An epic ascetic's natural armor bonus to AC increases by +1 for every eight character levels beyond 16th (24th, 32nd, 40th and so forth). Energy Resistance (Ex): An epic ascetic's energy resistance increases by 10 for every seven character levels after 20th level (27th, 34th, 41st and so forth). Sweet, neat and petite. If you need to add special abilities, add more epic exalted feats. The epic ascetic will need a larger selection soon enough. Some may think that it needs more inherent special abilities, but I don't see that. Most epic prestige classes do not include new abilities that do not progress along a certain pattern. I see no reason to ignore that precedent for just a feat. Cool. I agree this is a more appropriately powered VoP progression. The suggested change to reduce the continuing increases to ability scores is necessary to keep the power levels balanced. I'd also recommend the elimination of additional exalted feats. Remove that exalted feat progression entirely from the Epic VoP feat for greater balance. An additional recommendation would be to change the eneregy resistance progression to: lv 27: universal energy resistance 25 lv 34: immunity to one form of energy (acid, sonic, cold, fire, electricity) lv 41: immunity to a 2nd type of energy lv 48: immunity to a 3rd type of energy lv 55: immunity to a 4th type of energy lv 62: immunity to a 5th type of energy Using this modified epic VoP feat, a 60th level ascetic would have the following benefits with estimated values for the creation of comparable magical items: +24 Exalted Bonus to AC (14,400,000gp) +13 Resistance Bonus to Saves. (1,960,000gp) +18 Exalted Epic Strike (6,480,000gp) +20/+18/+16/+14/+12/+10 Ability Enhancement Bonuses (14,200,000gp) DR 25/epic & evil (3,000,000gp) +10 Deflection Bonus to AC (2,000,000gp) +7 Natural Armor Bonus to AC (980,000gp) Universal Energy Immunity (2,160,000gp) Total Value: 45,180,000gp Based upon the pattern of starting wealth for epic characters levels 21-40, its my belief that a 60th lv character would have ~ 61,600,000gp. The 45,180,000gp value of the Epic VoP Feat equates to the approximate wealth of a 55th lv character which is -5 levels below his non-ascetic peers. On the other hand, the experience point cost for thirteen epic items worth 61,600,000 is 629,000exp and requires 169 years of crafting time. For comparison, items comparable to the 60 lv ascetic's powers is 45,180,000gp for 464,800exp A 60th lv character has 1,770,000exp. The crafting of items worth a 60th level characters full wealth would set a non-ascetic item crafter back from 60th lv all the way to about mid-point of his 48st lv. I know that you can't craft your way backwards in levels, but the point is that a 60th lv non-ascetic may have 5 more lvs of wealth than comparable ascetics but converting the wealth to power will require massive exp output. The exp costs of epic magical items is a heavy burden that the Epic VoP overcomes. Nevertheless, the power levels of this revised feat seem sufficiently comparable to non-ascetic wealth.
summerstar 11-30-06, 05:37 PM	That might be your interpretation, but the Book of Exalted Deeds states that an ascetic must be as extreme in the works of charity as they are in self-denial. For an ascetic to simply give their party members the treasure without taking any to donate to charity is not living up to the VoP. Okay then, this remains a problem for both the regular feat and the proposed Epic feat. How is a VoP character to transport quantities of treasure to his or her charitable causes? At an epic level, I imagine that epic quantities of treasure flowing into charitable institutions or directly to the poor would likely cause substantial social turmoil.
bluemage55 11-30-06, 06:02 PM	Okay then, this remains a problem for both the regular feat and the proposed Epic feat. How is a VoP character to transport quantities of treasure to his or her charitable causes? A VoP character is allowed to carry treasure to a charity, even if they can't keep it. I don't think it would be inappropriate to use certain amounts of a given treasure to purchase bags of holding to carry the rest of the treasure in. At an epic level, I imagine that epic quantities of treasure flowing into charitable institutions or directly to the poor would likely cause substantial social turmoil. A VoP character could distribute it over a large area. Alternatively, such a character could entrust it to planar entities with the stipulation that the treasure is distributed over a longer period of time. I'm sure celestials wouldn't mind some extra gold for their chartiable works.
summerstar 11-30-06, 08:29 PM	A VoP character is allowed to carry treasure to a charity, even if they can't keep it. I don't think it would be inappropriate to use certain amounts of a given treasure to purchase bags of holding to carry the rest of the treasure in. A VoP character could distribute it over a large area. Alternatively, such a character could entrust it to planar entities with the stipulation that the treasure is distributed over a longer period of time. I'm sure celestials wouldn't mind some extra gold for their chartiable works. I think permitting the use of bags of holding is inconsistent with the spirit and letter of the feat which states "You may not use any magical item of any sort" However, I do see, as you rightly pointed out, that extreme charity is included in the feat as well. The idea to use summoned celestials or other exalted allies to help distribute the wealth is a good one. However, this would be hard for a non-caster. Perhaps the ascetic would merely return to civilization with only what limited treasure they could carry in their "one sack or bag" used for carrying a single day's food. The feat seems very specific about the few material possessions that the ascetic may use. I imagine that the remainder of their share of treasure would be left in the monster's lair until the ascetic could return with allies to collect it for distribution to charities. How would the ascetic feel about leaving treasure behind that was too bulky to be carted away without the use of magical items? It seems to me to remain problematic. I think the feat is internally inconsistent in that it requires the ascetic to carry out extreme charity, but limits the ascetic to only carry a single sack or bag of non-magical character. Interestingly, the feat does not specify permission to possess a spellbook. This again seems broken.
LordMohg 11-30-06, 09:14 PM	My apologies, then. I skimmed his post & went straight to the stat block. As for my second point now, I'm guessing his DM is giving the apostle of peace's armor non-restrictions precedent over the VoP, & allowing defensive magic items. Right...House rule on shortbow. Plus we needed an archer/rouge in our group, so i fill 2 spots in 1 character so we actually took a vote as a 6 person Group. My GM and I agreed a Short bow-non composite, would be okay since a bow was in use long before crossbows were invented... a stick with a string on it is more SIMPLE than a crossbow.(house rule) And I reread the Apostle again, and i do see the entry does apear under weapon and armor proficiencies... yet again WOTC has it unclear as stating "may wear items that PROTECT" does a resist cloak "PROTECT" you, yes. Yes it also does contradict VOP, but VOP is a prereq for Apostle, so the class overrides the feat in this case. As a general rule when i play him, the items he wears are nice and all but he is not attached to them like he feels the other characters in his group rely on theirs. At one time he quested the world to obtain all 3 pieces of the Regailia of Good. Afterwhich he gave them to a church being overrun unspeakable evil, in hopes it would do some good. Can't say many characters would waste thier time doing all that just to give them away the second they get them. (got some good brownie points for that one btw <cough-cough...saint...cough-cough>) SUMMERSTAR made a very good point about making epic magic items to give the bonuses that VOP grants. 45 million, but that doesn't include the extra feats ? and the (Ex) abilities, or the all weapons are treated as +5 magic weapons... does it? It's all a game, we all have fun playing, as long as we don't die... too many times.
bluemage55 11-30-06, 09:53 PM	[COLOR="DarkOrchid"] Perhaps the ascetic would merely return to civilization with only what limited treasure they could carry in their "one sack or bag" used for carrying a single day's food. The feat seems very specific about the few material possessions that ascetic may use. I imagine that the remainder of their share of treasure would be left in the monster's lair until the ascetic could return with allies to collect it for distribution to charities. How the ascetic feel about leaving treasure behind that was too bulky to be carted away without the use of magical items? The ascetic could always rely on the charity of their adventuring companions to carry treasure. Then again, a party of ascetics would still have to deal with the above mentioned problems.
saucercrab 12-01-06, 12:11 PM	And I reread the Apostle again, and i do see the entry does apear under weapon and armor proficiencies... yet again WOTC has it unclear as stating "may wear items that PROTECT" does a resist cloak "PROTECT" you, yes. Yes it also does contradict VOP, but VOP is a prereq for Apostle, so the class overrides the feat in this case.Going by the apostle's write-up (contradiction that it is) should limit the items to those that grant AC bonuses. Otherwise, it seems too easy to rationalize what can protect you, & further eff's with the spirit of the VoP. As a general rule when i play him, the items he wears are nice and all but he is not attached to them like he feels the other characters in his group rely on theirs. At one time he quested the world to obtain all 3 pieces of the Regailia of Good. Afterwhich he gave them to a church being overrun unspeakable evil, in hopes it would do some good. Can't say many characters would waste thier time doing all that just to give them away the second they get them. (got some good brownie points for that one btw <cough-cough...saint...cough-cough>)Eh, I could see most good parties doing that (in games I've played anyway, so YMMV). SUMMERSTAR made a very good point about making epic magic items to give the bonuses that VOP grants. 45 million, but that doesn't include the extra feats ? and the (Ex) abilities, or the all weapons are treated as +5 magic weapons... does it?The vow's abilities can't be sundered or disjoined ('s that the correct verb for disjunction?). It's definitely worth something when you can lose your abilities the way normal items can be lost. BTW, if your character's ring of universal energy immunity makes him immune to fire damage, then he shouldn't need a helm of briiliance.
rob_douglas 12-01-06, 04:01 PM	Disjoined is correct. As written, the abilities also mostly work inside an AMF. The enhancement bonuses are listed as (Ex). I think this is just plain wrong, and should be Su if nothing else. But as written, a great tactic is to take Permanent Emanation AMF ASAP with Epic VoP. Now you are really, really nasty. ROB
WarDragon 12-01-06, 04:28 PM	- From the Feats forum discussion on the limits of poverty. I can see your point, Wardragon, but I prefer a different intrepation of the exalted vow feats. Vow of Chastity, Vow of Abstinence, etc are all about deprivation of worldly pleasures. I tend to think the exhalted power of the VoP feat comes from the acestic deprivation element rather than than a power of philanthropy. Then I hope you open it up to characters of any and all alignments. Self-improvement via self-deprivation is not inherently good, much less Exalted. Disjoined is correct. As written, the abilities also mostly work inside an AMF. The enhancement bonuses are listed as (Ex). I think this is just plain wrong, and should be Su if nothing else. But as written, a great tactic is to take Permanent Emanation AMF ASAP with Epic VoP. Now you are really, really nasty. ROB The abilities are listed as Extraordinary, but the feat itself is Supernatural. The opening text of the feats chapter in BoED says that all Exalted feats are Supernatural in nature, and Vow of Poverty doesn't mention an exception. Of course, it becomes a moot point at level 40, since Quasi-deities are immune to Anti-magic regardless.
CelestialBarbarian 12-01-06, 04:49 PM	since Quasi-deities are immune to Anti-magic regardless. Can you direct me to that rule? I looked through Deities and Demigods but couldn't find it.
bluemage55 12-01-06, 05:06 PM	Can you direct me to that rule? I looked through Deities and Demigods but couldn't find it. The description of antimagic field specifies this: Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.
CelestialBarbarian 12-01-06, 05:24 PM	The description of antimagic field specifies this: Oh, it's in the spell description and doesn't specifically reference quasi-deities. So does this mean that a hammer of thunderbolts, a minor artifact, would just ignore an antimagic field? If a wizard gains a divine rank of 0, do all of his spells suddenly ignore an antimagic field? I could see the former situation as making some sense, but somehow I suspect that they didn't intend for the latter.
WarDragon 12-01-06, 05:40 PM	Yes, to both. Also, Epic spells ignore antimagic (well, they technically have to make a CL check, but it's a flat DC that no Epic caster ever going to fail).
bluemage55 12-01-06, 05:56 PM	Oh, it's in the spell description and doesn't specifically reference quasi-deities. It does not. Quasi-deities are deities with divine rank 0. So does this mean that a hammer of thunderbolts, a minor artifact, would just ignore an antimagic field? Yes. If a wizard gains a divine rank of 0, do all of his spells suddenly ignore an antimagic field? It's debatable, but I would argue no. The spells he uses on himself would succeed, but he would not be able to affect anything else inside the field except another deity, artifact, or epic spell. The wizard could also cast spells out of the field, targeting subjects outside. His epic spells would potentially work if he succeeds on the check, however. Comically, a deity's immunity to the AMF means that they are vulnerable to harmful magical effects inside of it while mortals are not.
rob_douglas 12-01-06, 06:16 PM	However, there is the issue of line of effect. I have to say that I expected Deities and Demigods to clarify that little statement in the AMF description. I was disappointed that they didn't. Clearly SDAs are supposed to ignore an AMF. Even in one, Hand of Death can kill you. It is actually easier then, because you can't be protected by a Death Ward. But should Destruction cast by a deity still kill you in and AMF? Any which way, I forgot about the feat being supernatural, so that is basically fine. Thanks Bluemage. ROB
CelestialBarbarian 12-01-06, 06:24 PM	It does not. Quasi-deities are deities with divine rank 0. I know that. He specifically refered to quasi-deities rather than to deities generally, which is why I thought there was something in the deities book that said something like, "deities with a divine rank of 0 or higher are immune to antimagic." Yes. It's debatable, but I would argue no. The spells he uses on himself would succeed, but he would not be able to affect anything else inside the field except another deity, artifact, or epic spell. The wizard could also cast spells out of the field, targeting subjects outside. His epic spells would potentially work if he succeeds on the check, however. Comically, a deity's immunity to the AMF means that they are vulnerable to harmful magical effects inside of it while mortals are not. Why would the wizard's spells work on himself in an antimagic field?
bluemage55 12-01-06, 06:40 PM	Why would the wizard's spells work on himself in an antimagic field? The wizard deity is himself immune to the AMF. Thus, spells on him should function normally. Otherwise, the immunity to AMF entails no benefit at all. Think of his divine status as a constant ward against an antimagic field. His body and effects are excluded from the area of the AMF, and thus, spells on himself function normally.
CelestialBarbarian 12-01-06, 06:50 PM	The wizard deity is himself immune to the AMF. Thus, spells on him should function normally. Otherwise, the immunity to AMF entails no benefit at all. Think of his divine status as a constant ward against an antimagic field. His body and effects are excluded from the area of the AMF, and thus, spells on himself function normally. I'd be more inclined to interpret the immunity as meaning that their divine abilities are immune to an antimagic field rather than that all their abilities are immune. So a spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability that comes from a non-divine source, like a class or a race, would still feel the effects of an antimagic field, but the spells, spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities they get as a result of their divine status wouldn't.
bluemage55 12-01-06, 07:10 PM	I'd be more inclined to interpret the immunity as meaning that their divine abilities are immune to an antimagic field rather than that all their abilities are immune. So a spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability that comes from a non-divine source, like a class or a race, would still feel the effects of an antimagic field, but the spells, spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities they get as a result of their divine status wouldn't. The description doesn't say that divine powers and abilities are immune to an AMF, it says that deities are immune to an AMF. The former would support your conclusion, but it's not in there and thus requires a bit more of an interpretational stretch.
CelestialBarbarian 12-01-06, 07:25 PM	However, there is the issue of line of effect. I have to say that I expected Deities and Demigods to clarify that little statement in the AMF description. I was disappointed that they didn't. Clearly SDAs are supposed to ignore an AMF. Even in one, Hand of Death can kill you. It is actually easier then, because you can't be protected by a Death Ward. But should Destruction cast by a deity still kill you in and AMF? ROB Exactly. I mean if you interpret the line literally, as WarDragon does, then an antimagic field wouldn't stop any magic of any deity regardless of source. I really doubt though that that the authors meant that one little throwaway line to have such an amazing, broad effect. BlueWizard agrees that we can't intepret it literally, and so interprets it to apply to magic affecting only the deity's body. By that interpetation, an SDA wouldn't be able to affect a target other than the deity in an antimagic field. It seems much more reasonable to believe that only the deity's divine magic ignores an antimagic field, but ignores it regardless of whether it affects the deity or another target.
bluemage55 12-01-06, 07:42 PM	BlueWizard agrees that we can't intepret it literally, and so interprets it to apply to magic affecting only the deity's body. By that interpetation, an SDA wouldn't be able to affect a target other than the deity in an antimagic field. Not exactly. SDAs are usually not supernatural or spell-like. They are divine. Since an AMF doesn't stop divine abilities, that's not an issue.
CelestialBarbarian 12-01-06, 08:03 PM	Not exactly. SDAs are usually not supernatural or spell-like. They are divine. Since an AMF doesn't stop divine abilities, that's not an issue. Page 32 of Deities and Demigods contains a bit of text on "Salient Divine Abilities and Antimagic" that specifically says an SDA works within an AMF. I suspect that this is the real meaning of the passing reference in the description of AMF. Edit: Or perhaps more accurately, what the authors of Deities and Demigods did with the rather careless wording of AMF. Remember that AMF predates Deities and Demigods, and the authors of the 3.0 PHB probably didn't give much thought to how AMF would interact with the details of deities since few details of deities existed yet. When they did the 3.5 they simply carried over a great many things without seriously considering changes (e.g. like leaving dragon damage size advancement equal to the 3.0 rules instead of converting to 3.5 rules).
The_Hedgewizard 12-04-06, 10:52 AM	I'm DMing a character who plans on taking Vow of Poverty in a campaign which is quite likely to go to epic levels. I saw this thread, and while I plan to continue the basic bonuses of Vow of Poverty as outlined here, I don't really feel comfortable adding the unofficial special abilities. Hence, I was wondering if 1) would I be justified in, instead of granting said suggested special abilities, applying the saint template to the character at level 21 instead? I figure if you manage to maintain both your exalted status and your vow of poverty into epic levels, you are worthy of sainthood...and 2) are the bonuses from the saint template enough to keep the character powerful enough up until about level 30 or so? It grants a wisdom bonus to AC along with a small stat boost, as well as damage reduction 10/evil, fast healing up to 10, and some immunities (acid, cold, electricity, with a bonus to resistance against fire; not sonic however) among other things. So, what do you all think?
summerstar 12-04-06, 12:31 PM	I'm DMing a character who plans on taking Vow of Poverty in a campaign which is quite likely to go to epic levels. I saw this thread, and while I plan to continue the basic bonuses of Vow of Poverty as outlined here, I don't really feel comfortable adding the unofficial special abilities. Hence, I was wondering if 1) would I be justified in, instead of granting said suggested special abilities, applying the saint template to the character at level 21 instead? I figure if you manage to maintain both your exalted status and your vow of poverty into epic levels, you are worthy of sainthood...and 2) are the bonuses from the saint template enough to keep the character powerful enough up until about level 30 or so? It grants a wisdom bonus to AC along with a small stat boost, as well as damage reduction 10/evil, fast healing up to 10, and some immunities (acid, cold, electricity, with a bonus to resistance against fire; not sonic however) among other things. So, what do you all think? Greetings, Hedgewizard. I'd recommend waiting on the Saint template until there is a role-played epic quest completed by the character. In a sense, I'd advise decoupling it from the Vow of Poverty track. The revised Epic Vow of Poverty feat that's been outlined here should provide sufficient power for a character in the 21-30 range to keep up with his or her non-ascetic peers in the game. This is more true for casters and/or monks with a variety of special powers or spells of their own to complement the feat. It's less true for classes such a fighter or straight paladin that have fewer means to collect a diversity of abilities. In earlier segments of this thread, we discussed the lack of a flying ability could be a major hindrance to a ascetic. I'd also point out that the feat doesn't provide for any sort of Spell Resistance. The lack of any SR at epic levels could be a pain. On the other hand, if the characters is using the VoP for role-playing reasons, the lack of SR is a small price to pay for a good character story-line.
klode_me 02-04-07, 11:56 AM	:bump: to keep it alive. cheers
pflame5000 02-12-07, 09:06 PM	i love it, and so does my DM. The only thing he disagrees with is the DvR 0. He doesnt want to allow it because we fight a lot of spell casters and it will give a hugh edge against them. SR 32, a bunch of immunities and more touch AC. Overall, its awesome. For the people that are saying that swiftness is too good, its the same thing as boots of swiftness. Which only cost around 256k. Sure these things look cool on paper, but they arent really overpowerd because no items is a huge offset. You can do so many great things with items. Its generally only overpowered in like a no magic/magic item campaign, but besides that it measures up well to magic items
bluemage55 02-12-07, 09:08 PM	i love it, and so does my DM. The only thing he disagrees with is the DvR 0. He doesnt want to allow it because we fight a lot of spell casters and it will give a hugh edge against them. SR 32, a bunch of immunities and more touch AC. You're kidding, right? SR 32 is a joke at 40th level. No caster can possibly fail their check. Heck, you could have bought an SR 32 item at 20th level for 200,000 gp.
rob_douglas 02-12-07, 10:27 PM	And boots of swiftness should be like constant haste and cost about 400K - but they were not errataed the way boots of speed were. See the Epic Revision thread for more on that. ROB
carnivore 04-30-07, 05:54 PM	:bump: for the link :D
Ferox_the_Ancient 04-30-07, 10:12 PM	i personally find this thread to have been invaluable...and the divine rank zero could be named something else...give the same bonuses but name it something other than divine rank zero...why didnt anyone think of that earlier? the immunity to mind affecting and other bonuses and abilities of dr 0 without the "everything i do works in amf " ...i mean that sounds reasonable to me...call it something like "awakening of the soul" or something else equally cheesy sounding
Geraturatu 05-03-07, 07:16 PM	People, DR 0 isn't a big deal. There are 20th level character trooping around that are greater deities because they don't have the epic level handbook, or other reasons. In fact, the deities in Dieties and Demigods have around 40 HD each, and they are a lot higher than DR 0. In there it even says that DR0 is Hero rank deities and th like (not the exact wording I admit). So really, chances are that the person would already have a divine rank, but if the ones that don't that have this feat would get one of 0. It's not all that big. I mean, the person has to fight with their bare hands for alot of levels without money or magic equipment, you can't tell me that is not worthy of great rewards. All I'm saying is, there's no reason to take that one off.
bluemage55 05-03-07, 07:19 PM	The problem with DvR 0 isn't it's power. It's the implifcations that it has flavor-wise. As far as I'm aware, there is no connection between exalted characters and the attainment of divinity.
Geraturatu 05-03-07, 07:32 PM	HERO rank deities. It's not like they would suddenly start jumping up the DR ladder once they reach DR0. Actually, it would be quite the opposite, it would take forever to reach higher ranks. To me it seems kind of fair for them to get DR0 if they haven't already, since the other characters were probably boosting their abilities with artifacts and such.
bluemage55 05-03-07, 09:04 PM	There is no reason to believe that everyone gets their hands on artifacts. Even the state of being a quasi-deity is still a measure of divinity afforded usually only to creatures with a single divine parent.
vorax20k 05-04-07, 11:54 AM	Remember people that DvR0 is just a fraction of what is needed to be a deity. There is no way to go up to DvR1 or any higher, even with every person and thing worshiping the character.
Grandmaster_Kane 05-04-07, 03:47 PM	hmmm very nice very nice
summerstar 05-05-07, 05:18 PM	I'm not a fan of a feat that delivers a divine status - even if DvR0 doesn't offer much in the way of epic power. An epic ascetic is no more likely to have attained a divine state than any epic hero.
rob_douglas 05-08-07, 04:20 PM	The problem with DvR0 is that there is no other way within the rules to attain it. And with Epic Vow of Poverty, things are retroactive - so you could get it by denouncing possessions as of 40th level - never having had to do without items, just by taking those two feats late in life. Again, the problem with granting DvR (not DR) 0 is not the mechanics, but the flavor. They should be able to attain it in whatever other ways the DM has sought to include divine ascension into his game. But since divine ascension rules are not part of the Core RAW, a single feat shouldn't also grant it. ROB
vorax20k 05-09-07, 04:55 AM	Yes, the main problem I also have with VoP and EVoP is every thing but the feats are retroactive. If some of the abilities like the DvR0 after having the VoP for a min of 35 lvls and EVoP for a min of 20 lvls, or something along the line.
Bernat 05-09-07, 06:43 AM	To solve the retroactive problem, you can require 10+ exalted feats before you can take EVoP, and 15+ for gaining DvR 0. Having a feat require a number of feats of some kind has already been seen with metamagic feats and shouldn't carry any rule complications.
Arkat 07-02-07, 11:15 AM	After reading the OP's version and then reading Retiarius' version, I decided I didn't like either one. The OP's version felt like it was "too much" and Retiarius' version was too conservative. I decided to sort of synthesize the two and make a few changes of my own. Here it is: Epic Vow of Poverty (Epic, Exalted) For levels 21-40, you have renewed your vow to forswear material possessions. Prerequisites: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, character level 21+. Benefit: You continue to gain bonuses to your Armor Class, attacks, ability scores and saving throws, as well as bonus feats, all depending on your character level. See below for details. Special: To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use an ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magical properties. You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day in a simple (nonmagic) sack or bag. You may carry and use a spell component pouch. You may not use any magic item of any sort though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll or staff, or ride on your companion’s Ebon Fly. You may not, however, “borrow” a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a scroll, wand or staff. If you break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it. Epic Vow of Poverty Benefits AC Bonus (Su): An epic ascetic's exalted bonus to AC continues to increase by +1 for every 3 character levels beyond 18th (+11 at 21st level, +12 at 24th level, +13 at 27th level, and so forth). Resistance (Ex): An epic ascetic's resistance bonus to saving throws increases by +1 for every 4 character levels beyond 17th (+4 at 21st, +5 at 25th, +6 at 29th, and so forth). Bonus Feats: An epic ascetic gains a bonus exalted or epic exalted feat every two levels over 20th (22nd, 24th, 26th, and so forth). Exalted Strike (Su): An epic ascetic's exalted strike ability continues to increase as he gains levels. The enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls increases by +1 for every 3 character levels beyond 20th. This means, at 23rd level, any weapon the character wields effectively becomes a +6 weapon and can overcome the damage reduction of a creature as though it were an epic weapon. In addition, at 26th level, an epic ascetic’s attacks are considered to have been made with a silver, cold iron, or adamantine, whichever would be more beneficial. At 32nd level, any weapon the character wields is considered to have the holy ability, thus dealing extra damage to evil creatures. Ability Score Enhancement (Ex): An epic ascetic's ability score enhancements continue to increase up to 39th level. At 23rd level, his existing bonuses increase by +2 and he gains a +2 bonus to a fifth ability score. At 27th level, he gains a +2 bonus to those five scores and a +2 bonus to the sixth ability score. Starting at 31st level, the epic ascetic gains a +2 bonus to all ability scores that are not at +12. This repeats at 35th and 39th level until he has gained these bonuses - +12/+12/+12/+12/+10/+8. Damage Reduction (Su): At 24th level, an epic ascetic’s damage reduction improves to 10/epic and evil. For every 8 levels the ascetic gains beyond 24th, his damage reduction improves by 5 points (15/epic & evil at 32nd and 20/epic & evil at 40th). Deflection (Su): An epic ascetic's deflection bonus to AC increases by +1 at 24th level and every 6 levels thereafter. Natural Armor (Ex): An epic ascetic's natural armor bonus to AC increases by +1 for every 8 character levels beyond 16th (24th, 32nd, and 40th). Holy Wake (Ex): At 22nd level, an epic ascetic character does not need to sleep and is immune to all natural and magical sleep effects. An epic ascetic spell caster still requires eight hours of rest before he can replenish his spells, usually spending the time in a meditative trance. Exalted Grace (Ex): At 25th level, an epic ascetic may add his Charisma modifier as a sacred bonus to all saving throws. Fast Healing (Ex): At 28th level, an epic ascetic’s regeneration ability improves. He gains the fast healing ability, healing an amount of damage per round equal to (ascetic’s level -5)/5, rounded down. Energy Resistance (Ex): At 30th level, an epic ascetic's energy resistance increases to 30. At 40th level, an epic ascetic is immune to all energy types. Improved Exalted Strike (Su): At 31st level, an epic ascetic may select a number of weapon enhancements whose total "plus value" cannot exceed his Charisma modifier to be applied to any weapon he wields, including natural weapons and unarmed strikes. The epic ascetic does not need to spend the entire amount at once and may select new enhancements if his Charisma permanently increases in the future. Once chosen, these enhancements cannot be changed. This ability cannot be taken more than once. Note that selecting Holy or Holy Power may be redundant. Example: An epic ascetic with 30 Cha (+10 modifier) could choose to make his weapons (fists, claws, etc) Speed (+4), Brilliant Energy (+4), and Flaming Burst (+2). If his Charisma later permanently increases to 32, he could add the Spell-storing property as well. Exalted Lifespark (Su): At 34th level, an epic ascetic is constantly under the effects of Deathward. Additionally, an epic ascetic may Turn Undead as a Cleric of 1/2 his level a number of times each day equal to his Charisma modifier. If the epic ascetic already Turns Undead, he turns undead as if he were 4 levels higher in the class that granted the ability and he receives Extra Turning as a bonus feat if he did not already have it. Holy Aura (Su): At 37th level an epic ascetic is surrounded at all times by the effects of the holy aura spell. This aura provides all of the usual benefits of the spell to any good creature within 20 feet of the epic ascetic. Immortality (Ex): At 40th level, an epic ascetic no longer takes penalties to his ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that he has already taken, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue but an immortal epic ascetic cannot die of old age. If the immortal epic ascetic is not already immune to such things, he is now immune to all sorts of poisons and most diseases. Unless granted by some other ability, an immortal epic ascetic is not immune to magical diseases that do not cause death (e.g. lycanthropy). An epic ascetic may still be killed by physical means such as combat, falls, etc., or by magic spells and effects that cause lethal damage. I liked the OP's attempts to introduce new or expanded special abilities but was uncomfortable with several of them. I liked Retiarius' attempt to comform with other epic progressions but found his approach too conservative ultimately. The epic VoP is not a class progression and so therefore I felt some more special abilities should be introduced. I introduced the Immortality special ability because it seemed more "epic" than Timeless Body and it would also be less controversial than the OP's Divine Ascension. I limited the progression to 20 more levels for a couple of reasons. 1) If we're going to say in order to progress at epic levels in VoP, why should the epic VoP feat cover more than 20 levels? Just like the non-epic VoP feat is a single feat that covers 20 levels, so should the Epic VoP feat. 2) To me, hitting 40th level is tantamount to "winning the game." Once you get that high, what's left? (That was a rhetorical question btw.) If you want to keep playing, make the Epic Ascetic take another Epic VoP feat, continue the fairly static progressions and come up with some more special abilities on your own.
Legdiwena 07-24-07, 12:07 PM	According to VoP, majority of treasure goes to charity. So wouldn't he be able to spend a little bit to hire a porter to haul treasure without violating VoP? And stop restricting them to a quarterstaff. Official VoP is any non-masterwork simple weapon.
BillTheManiac 07-24-07, 03:33 PM	According to VoP, majority of treasure goes to charity. So wouldn't he be able to spend a little bit to hire a porter to haul treasure without violating VoP? And stop restricting them to a quarterstaff. Official VoP is any non-masterwork simple weapon. Just hire a bunch of starving beggars. Its charity AND porters.
Arkat 09-25-07, 04:07 PM	Greetings all! I posted my version of the Epic Vow of Poverty a couple of months ago (see post #195 above) and received no feedback which disappointed me a bit :( I figure I got no feedback because of one of two possible reasons: 1) Nobody cares about this stuff anymore, or 2) I didn't ask for any! If it's reason #1, then I guess I won't get any feedback no matter what I do! If it's reason #2, then I am formally asking for any feedback (I would appreciate constructive feedback especially) anyone would care to leave. Thanks!
summerstar 09-26-07, 12:51 AM	Greetings all! I posted my version of the Epic Vow of Poverty a couple of months ago (see post #195 above) and received no feedback which disappointed me a bit :( I figure I got no feedback because of one of two possible reasons: 1) Nobody cares about this stuff anymore, or 2) I didn't ask for any! If it's reason #1, then I guess I won't get any feedback no matter what I do! If it's reason #2, then I am formally asking for any feedback (I would appreciate constructive feedback especially) anyone would care to leave. Thanks! Arkat, I stand by the post #155 in this thread. Anyway regarding you're recent post, I'm not a fan of the Immortality benefit you've added. It's just my two cents but I don't think this feat should offer you anything that you couldn't get from actually using gold. It's just a means of giving PC's an ascetic role-play option without penalizing their play for this choice. It shouldn't be used to add powers that regular play cannot provide.
Flintstone 09-26-07, 11:10 PM	You know, I get why some people might have issues with allowing a bag of holding exception. After all, if a character can afford one, why can't he just give the purchase price to the poor instead? Instead of allowing a magic item for storage, maybe it's better to give someone with the feat a supernatural ability that opens up a portable one-way portal (for objects only) that connects directly to an exalted charitable institution. That way, the character can instantly transport anything that he's prohibited from keeping for himself. You could attach all kinds of restrictions to this ability as well to keep it abuse-free and still keep to both the letter and spirit of the VoP. Why wouldn't this work?
lostone 09-27-07, 11:15 AM	Instead of allowing a magic item for storage, maybe it's better to give someone with the feat a supernatural ability that opens up a portable one-way portal (for objects only) that connects directly to an exalted charitable institution. That way, the character can instantly transport anything that he's prohibited from keeping for himself. You could attach all kinds of restrictions to this ability as well to keep it abuse-free and still keep to both the letter and spirit of the VoP. Why wouldn't this work? "You realize you can't carry all this treasure with you, it's far too heavy." "We'll come back for it...with wagons and oxen." "While we are gone someone may discover this place and take it all for nefarious purposes. It is better if we donate what we can't carry immediately." *Opens portal and begins shoving huge mounds of the dragon's horde through.* Followed by the severe murdering of a PC.
Legdiwena 09-28-07, 04:39 PM	Have a non-ascetic player with dimensional storage transport items and take a slight cut. Ascetic player can then donate when he gets back to town. Or relocate charities to site of dragon hoard.
Arkat 10-02-07, 02:18 PM	Arkat, I stand by the post #155 in this thread. Anyway regarding you're recent post, I'm not a fan of the Immortality benefit you've added. It's just my two cents but I don't think this feat should offer you anything that you couldn't get from actually using gold. It's just a means of giving PC's an ascetic role-play option without penalizing their play for this choice. It shouldn't be used to add powers that regular play cannot provide. Well, for the most part, I agree with you. I agree with your assesment of the original intent of the VoP feat and I fully support it...mostly. My feeling is that VoP is just a little more than just item substitution or rather it should be if a character has gone through 40 levels with basically no possesions. For a game like D&D where a HUGE aspect of the game is to acquire "stuff," I think a non stuff-like reward at 40th level like Immortality is OK for not acquiring any "stuff" for so long. But let's assume most other people feel the way you do about having a non stuff-like power in the Epic VoP. What did you (or anybody else for that matter) think of the rest of my feat suggestion?
Legdiwena 10-03-07, 03:29 PM	I would remove Exalted Grace and make special weapons of Exalted Strike be gradual and chosen by player every 3/lvl or so instead all at 26
Arkat 10-03-07, 07:22 PM	I would remove Exalted Grace and make special weapons of Exalted Strike be gradual and chosen by player every 3/lvl or so instead all at 26 Can you explain the logic of your suggestions please? I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you, I just want to understand why you're proposing what you're proposing.
Legdiwena 10-06-07, 03:02 PM	I don't see any reason to give them a paladin class ability for being ascetic. Just feels funny giving them ability to bypass most DR all at once, would be better spread out IMO. And why do you restrict it more than the official version to only the quarterstaff?
Arkat 10-06-07, 03:51 PM	I don't see any reason to give them a paladin class ability for being ascetic. Grace is not just a Paladin ability. Several other classes get it. One example would be the Soldier of Light prestige class from Deities and Demigods. I believe there's another class that gets it in Book of Exalted deeds. Just feels funny giving them ability to bypass most DR all at once, would be better spread out IMO. Why? The Metalline weapon property (+2 bonus I believe) effectrively gives it to you all at once and Metalline isn't even epic! And why do you restrict it more than the official version to only the quarterstaff? I don't believe I mentioned the quarterstaff at all. Why do you mention it? Your point/question is not clear.
Legdiwena 10-06-07, 03:58 PM	You listed quarterstaff limitation in feat. The original is any non-magical, non-masterwork simple weapon. I haven't seen metalline, where is that from?
lostone 10-06-07, 04:18 PM	Why? The Metalline weapon property (+2 bonus I believe) effectrively gives it to you all at once and Metalline isn't even epic!Metalline requires you to know what metals bypass a creature's DR and alter your weapon accordingly. If you aren't familiar with it, it could take a lot of trial and error. I haven't seen metalline, where is that from?Underdark
Legdiwena 10-06-07, 04:33 PM	Are there any feats that allow you to use martial/exotic weapons with VoP? Some of those weapons are cheaper than some of the simple weapons that are allowed.
Arkat 10-07-07, 10:10 AM	You listed quarterstaff limitation in feat. The original is any non-magical, non-masterwork simple weapon. Ah, I see. I lifted that portion of the feat the OP's version. You are correct. I have made the change. I haven't seen metalline, where is that from? As Iostone said, originally it was in Underdark. It has since been updated in the Magic Item Compendium. Metalline requires you to know what metals bypass a creature's DR and alter your weapon accordingly. If you aren't familiar with it, it could take a lot of trial and error. True. However, the Exalted Strike ability is epic and Metalline is not. I don't see problem with it being able to bypass the appropriate DR automatically. Besides, if I were to space the different types (silver, cold iron, adamantine) out to every three levels or so instead of all at once (as was suggested by legidwena earlier), how would I determine which of the three would be first? Which would be last? Is anyone "better" than the others and thus worthy of being conferred at a higher level?
Legdiwena 10-10-07, 01:38 PM	Why I proposed to let player pick which one they get every 3 levels.
CelestialBarbarian 10-26-07, 08:19 PM	It's great that the other PCs are willing to carry your share. I've played in all too many groups, however, where nobody would have done that. In the group I run, however, where all the PCs have a good alignment, nobody would have a problem with carrying an ascetic's share of the treasure until donation. :) My group now has a half-celestial monk with the Vow of Poverty feat. The party does in fact have no problem carrying his share of the treasure until they can donate it for him. I'm thinking of going with something like Restius' Epic Vow of Poverty when the monk gets his class levels to 21. (He has an ECL of 20 now, with 16 monk levels, so I have a while to decide for sure. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to have the feat grant any bonus feats. :)