Epic Warlock Villain [Archive] - Wizards Community

Epic Warlock Villain [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cord de'Beron
11-18-07, 06:06 AM So after 4 years of gaming, and my players has reach level 23-27, i have decided to make the finally plot in my campaign. Of cource i need a big bad Villain for this. So i have thought of a warlock because it suits my major story line and the players don't know much about classes from the complete books.
But after i have read the class more closely, I think its really underpowered compared to other classes in the high levels 15+. so what do you think, do you have any ideas how to make him stronger or should a use something els.
(and no wizards/sorcerers please, used them all to much :))

Regards
runestar
11-18-07, 07:28 AM Epic warlock feats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a)

That is all I can think of at the moment. :embarrass
Silvercrys
11-18-07, 11:26 AM If you have the resources... Go with an Eldritch Disciple from Complete Mage, which is a dual-casting Warlock/Cleric Prestige Class. It gives you a Warlock with some Cleric spells, including Divine Power and such, at the cost of a few dice of Eldritch Blast damage. And if you have Dragon Magic, you can take the Eldritch Glaive invocation which will let you make iterative attacks with your Eldritch Blast in melee.

There's also the Hellfire Warlock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3), which will increase your Warlock's power by quite a bit, at the cost of Constitution damage. There's two generally accepted ways to get around this. One is the Tome of Magic, and involves 1 level of Binder. The other is to take the Shape Soulmeld feat to get the Strongheart Vest. Or you can just buy/create Wands of Lesser Restoration and use those every once in a while.

Depending on how optimized your party is, you could cheat a little with the Hellfire Warlock. If you take levels like so:

Warlock 9/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion 8 (Weapons of Legacy)

You can advance the Hellfire Blast progression. At level 20, this gives 8d6 Eldritch Blast + 18d6 Hellfire. Then you can go with regular Warlock into Epic levels, or try to build an Epic Legacy Champion progression to continue Hellfire Blast if you're into rolling alot of d6's.
WombleHunter
11-18-07, 02:12 PM If the party is level 23-27, then he should be at least CR 30.

Warlock 13/Hellfire Warlock 3/Sorcerer 4*/Eldritch Theurge 10 - invoking as a 26th level Warlock and spellcasting as a 14th level Sorcerer.

*I know you said no more sorcerers, but it just fits so well, thematically! :D Also I can't remember what the prerequisites for Eldritch Theurge are, so you might need less Sorcerer.

EDIT: Oooh, make him a True Dragon of some sort, give him just enough Warlock levels to qualify for Eldritch Theurge, and go from there! :D
Krispieman
11-20-07, 07:07 AM EDIT: Oooh, make him a True Dragon of some sort, give him just enough Warlock levels to qualify for Eldritch Theurge, and go from there! :D
I'd suggest going for the Shadow Dragon (draconomicon) because apart from getting Sorcerer spells, they can also select Cleric spells :P

K-man :cool:
WarDragon
11-21-07, 02:04 AM I'd suggest going for the Shadow Dragon (draconomicon) because apart from getting Sorcerer spells, they can also select Cleric spells :P

K-man :cool:
So can Gold, Silver, Bronze, Copper, Brass, Red, and Blue dragons.
Kain_Darkwind
11-21-07, 03:55 AM If the party is level 23-27, then he should be at least CR 30.

Warlock 13/Hellfire Warlock 3/Sorcerer 4*/Eldritch Theurge 10 - invoking as a 26th level Warlock and spellcasting as a 14th level Sorcerer.

Too bad these statements don't equate to each other. A 30th level NPCis not a CR 30, no matter what WotC says. The build you have there, if applied to an LA 0 race, will probably end up being a CR 23.
setekh
11-21-07, 03:43 PM Too bad these statements don't equate to each other. A 30th level NPCis not a CR 30, no matter what WotC says. The build you have there, if applied to an LA 0 race, will probably end up being a CR 23.

How would you go about working out the CR of Class levels on monsters?
Kain_Darkwind
11-21-07, 10:41 PM How would you go about working out the CR of Class levels on monsters?

Avoid a formula like the plague and look at the end result. Compare AC, attack bonuses, saves, special attack DCs, damage output, etc. As a quick guesstimation, I use +1/2 CR per class level, but I always adjust it based on the actual finished product. 5th level wizard or sorcerer casting carries no impact on a CR 20 creature. If a +2 ogre gauntlet, +2 con amulet and +1 cloak of resistance don't kick up a creature's CR, then adding a single level of fighter isn't going to either.

I also integrate my monster's class levels over their racial HD, ala gestalt, rather than just adding them on top of them. It keeps things more balanced. A pit fiend wizard 2 is not a CR 21. Using my design, a pit fiend could have 18 class levels before gaining a single HD above his base.

As for regular human/elf/dwarf NPCs, I typically subtract 1 CR for every 5HD. So a 4th and 5th level NPC both have CR 4. A 9th and 10th level NPC both have CR 8. A 20th NPC has CR 16. A 30th level NPC has CR 24.
Raphael_Sorel
11-22-07, 09:54 PM Well, I personally love to use warlocks, particularly as villains but had much the same problem as you suspected Cord... so I made my own prestige class to increase the overall power level of the class in a vile way. I had it on the prestige class board here, but it has since drifted off.

I know its not cannon, but if you are interested, I could repost it here or PM it to you.
Avatar of Kokusho
11-23-07, 08:22 AM I could upgrade a villian I used to great effect: a rakshasa eldritch theurge. At a high enough level, rakshasa can be a challenge to ANY party, and if you mix racial advancement with class levels it would be quite good.
setekh
11-23-07, 11:35 AM Really useful stuff on CR's /

Many thanks :D
Cord de'Beron
11-26-07, 03:39 PM Thanks a lot for all the answer, and Raphael_Sorel i would love to see your own prestige class.

I myself dosnt use CR either, but look more on the powers and combat capabilities of the encounter. I have started trying to make the Villian with the suggested classes, but havnt found the complete version yet. But so far I think he should be around level 30. Oh and i also have 6 players, so its quit a task to make a encounters and tasks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cord de'Beron 11-18-07, 06:06 AM	So after 4 years of gaming, and my players has reach level 23-27, i have decided to make the finally plot in my campaign. Of cource i need a big bad Villain for this. So i have thought of a warlock because it suits my major story line and the players don't know much about classes from the complete books. But after i have read the class more closely, I think its really underpowered compared to other classes in the high levels 15+. so what do you think, do you have any ideas how to make him stronger or should a use something els. (and no wizards/sorcerers please, used them all to much :)) Regards
runestar 11-18-07, 07:28 AM	Epic warlock feats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a) That is all I can think of at the moment. :embarrass
Silvercrys 11-18-07, 11:26 AM	If you have the resources... Go with an Eldritch Disciple from Complete Mage, which is a dual-casting Warlock/Cleric Prestige Class. It gives you a Warlock with some Cleric spells, including Divine Power and such, at the cost of a few dice of Eldritch Blast damage. And if you have Dragon Magic, you can take the Eldritch Glaive invocation which will let you make iterative attacks with your Eldritch Blast in melee. There's also the Hellfire Warlock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3), which will increase your Warlock's power by quite a bit, at the cost of Constitution damage. There's two generally accepted ways to get around this. One is the Tome of Magic, and involves 1 level of Binder. The other is to take the Shape Soulmeld feat to get the Strongheart Vest. Or you can just buy/create Wands of Lesser Restoration and use those every once in a while. Depending on how optimized your party is, you could cheat a little with the Hellfire Warlock. If you take levels like so: Warlock 9/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion 8 (Weapons of Legacy) You can advance the Hellfire Blast progression. At level 20, this gives 8d6 Eldritch Blast + 18d6 Hellfire. Then you can go with regular Warlock into Epic levels, or try to build an Epic Legacy Champion progression to continue Hellfire Blast if you're into rolling alot of d6's.
WombleHunter 11-18-07, 02:12 PM	If the party is level 23-27, then he should be at least CR 30. Warlock 13/Hellfire Warlock 3/Sorcerer 4/Eldritch Theurge 10 - invoking as a 26th level Warlock and spellcasting as a 14th level Sorcerer. I know you said no more sorcerers, but it just fits so well, thematically! :D Also I can't remember what the prerequisites for Eldritch Theurge are, so you might need less Sorcerer. EDIT: Oooh, make him a True Dragon of some sort, give him just enough Warlock levels to qualify for Eldritch Theurge, and go from there! :D
Krispieman 11-20-07, 07:07 AM	EDIT: Oooh, make him a True Dragon of some sort, give him just enough Warlock levels to qualify for Eldritch Theurge, and go from there! :D I'd suggest going for the Shadow Dragon (draconomicon) because apart from getting Sorcerer spells, they can also select Cleric spells :P K-man :cool:
WarDragon 11-21-07, 02:04 AM	I'd suggest going for the Shadow Dragon (draconomicon) because apart from getting Sorcerer spells, they can also select Cleric spells :P K-man :cool: So can Gold, Silver, Bronze, Copper, Brass, Red, and Blue dragons.
Kain_Darkwind 11-21-07, 03:55 AM	If the party is level 23-27, then he should be at least CR 30. Warlock 13/Hellfire Warlock 3/Sorcerer 4*/Eldritch Theurge 10 - invoking as a 26th level Warlock and spellcasting as a 14th level Sorcerer. Too bad these statements don't equate to each other. A 30th level NPCis not a CR 30, no matter what WotC says. The build you have there, if applied to an LA 0 race, will probably end up being a CR 23.
setekh 11-21-07, 03:43 PM	Too bad these statements don't equate to each other. A 30th level NPCis not a CR 30, no matter what WotC says. The build you have there, if applied to an LA 0 race, will probably end up being a CR 23. How would you go about working out the CR of Class levels on monsters?
Kain_Darkwind 11-21-07, 10:41 PM	How would you go about working out the CR of Class levels on monsters? Avoid a formula like the plague and look at the end result. Compare AC, attack bonuses, saves, special attack DCs, damage output, etc. As a quick guesstimation, I use +1/2 CR per class level, but I always adjust it based on the actual finished product. 5th level wizard or sorcerer casting carries no impact on a CR 20 creature. If a +2 ogre gauntlet, +2 con amulet and +1 cloak of resistance don't kick up a creature's CR, then adding a single level of fighter isn't going to either. I also integrate my monster's class levels over their racial HD, ala gestalt, rather than just adding them on top of them. It keeps things more balanced. A pit fiend wizard 2 is not a CR 21. Using my design, a pit fiend could have 18 class levels before gaining a single HD above his base. As for regular human/elf/dwarf NPCs, I typically subtract 1 CR for every 5HD. So a 4th and 5th level NPC both have CR 4. A 9th and 10th level NPC both have CR 8. A 20th NPC has CR 16. A 30th level NPC has CR 24.
Raphael_Sorel 11-22-07, 09:54 PM	Well, I personally love to use warlocks, particularly as villains but had much the same problem as you suspected Cord... so I made my own prestige class to increase the overall power level of the class in a vile way. I had it on the prestige class board here, but it has since drifted off. I know its not cannon, but if you are interested, I could repost it here or PM it to you.
Avatar of Kokusho 11-23-07, 08:22 AM	I could upgrade a villian I used to great effect: a rakshasa eldritch theurge. At a high enough level, rakshasa can be a challenge to ANY party, and if you mix racial advancement with class levels it would be quite good.
setekh 11-23-07, 11:35 AM	Really useful stuff on CR's / Many thanks :D
Cord de'Beron 11-26-07, 03:39 PM	Thanks a lot for all the answer, and Raphael_Sorel i would love to see your own prestige class. I myself dosnt use CR either, but look more on the powers and combat capabilities of the encounter. I have started trying to make the Villian with the suggested classes, but havnt found the complete version yet. But so far I think he should be around level 30. Oh and i also have 6 players, so its quit a task to make a encounters and tasks.