Epic Wish [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Epic Wish [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bluetooth
06-14-07, 07:03 PM Ok, this is something I've been thinking about for a long time, and I'm not sure it's a good idea really, but it brings with it a host of other questions.

All epic spells, by definition, are more powerful than Wish, but I haven't seen a single one with the flexibility of wish. And while epic spellcasting as a whole is infinitely flexible, any given epic spell is far less so.

Furthermore, it seems reasonable to make an epic spell that works exactly like wish, but without the XP cost (which is potentially broken, but I'm still new at this epic stuff so I don't really know for sure). On the surface it seems fairly straitforward, since Wish has a 5000 XP cost, removing it would simply add 50 to whatever the DC was.

What means are there to create epic spells that are as useful in as many situations as a spell like Wish?
fnord
06-14-07, 07:23 PM What means are there to create epic spells that are as useful in as many situations as a spell like Wish?
The Shadow seed, from LEoF (along with the Mythal seed).

The problem with an xp-less wish is it's ability to produce permanent instantaneous effects. You could sit around for a few years and Wish up millions of gp.

Something that I would allow might be:

True Anyspell
Universal
Spellcraft DC: 105
Components:V, S, see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: See text
To Develop: Some amount
Seeds: Miracle (ad hoc 30). Factors: Add an additional spell level (ad hoc +20), Ignore Arcane/Divine Restrictions (ad hoc +15), Ignore Prohibited School (ad hoc +10), one action casting time (+20)
Mitigating Factors: To taste.
This spell allows the caster to cast any normal spell, up to level 9. If the spell requires an expensive material component, focus, or xp cost, that must be provided/paid.

The problem with this is that it doesn't allow much in the way of mitigation (rituals or increased casting time defeat the purpose).
BillTheManiac
06-14-07, 07:52 PM Seed: Anything
DC: 2X
When you cast this spell, it works as any epic spell of DC X or lower. Any ad hoc factors or mitigating factors that make the spell situational are illegal (such as a spell that only effects a certain type of creature). For example, if X is 29, you could animate a 20 HD vampire, create a 40' cone of 14d6 sonic damage, or dispel with a +20 bonus. All choices are made at the time of casting.
bluetooth
06-14-07, 08:09 PM Bill, that's awesome, but it is balanced? Further, what's the cost to develope a spell like that?

fnord,
Well there's backlash damage, but if the spell your duplicating has a duration of more than 1 round that could be a serious problem.

And as dumb as this sounds is the ability to gain nonmagical treasure at will as broken as it sounds? This is fairly easy to accomplish with the Conjure seed. For instance:

Endless Treasure
Conjuration (Creation)
Seeds: Conjure. (21)
Factors: Change to 40' radius(+6) Change to Instantaneous (x10)
Mitagating Factors: Increase Casting time by 10 minutes (-20) increasing casting time by 10 hours (-20) Increase Casting time to 90 days (-180) Caster becomes stunned for 10d10 rounds (-20)

Final DC 30

This spell creates a 40 foot sphere filled entirely with the casters choice of platinum coins, raw mithral or adamantine, or other valuable commodities within the confines of the conjure Seed.

Ok, this might not be the best use of 90 days of your time, but it would work (also a much higher caster wouldn't need as many mitagating factors). I don't actually know if this is unbalanced or not, but it seems well within confines of what the conjure seed can do.
BillTheManiac
06-14-07, 09:03 PM Bill, that's awesome, but it is balanced? Further, what's the cost to develop a spell like that?
Balanced? I have no clue. The cost is as a spell of DC 2X. It's an ordinary epic spell, just the effect uses the epic spell development system rather then just a fixed effect.
QuickenedWish
09-19-07, 12:39 AM Someone mentioned a Mythal? The text states that any spell of 9th level or lower can be a candidate for a vanguard spell. Creating a mythal that grants a 9th level spell at will is well within the bounds of a team or single epic caster. I guess my question is this then, if the mythal were to grant you a wish spell, would you go about paying the xp cost? The text does not state that one in fact does.

The mythal of Silverymoon grants forcecage in the Inner Sactum at will, this spell normally requires a 1500 gp component, but does not state that this is required to cast one from the mythal. One would extrapolate that this applies to xp components as well...

any ideas?
Sagetim
09-19-07, 02:45 AM Someone mentioned a Mythal? The text states that any spell of 9th level or lower can be a candidate for a vanguard spell. Creating a mythal that grants a 9th level spell at will is well within the bounds of a team or single epic caster. I guess my question is this then, if the mythal were to grant you a wish spell, would you go about paying the xp cost? The text does not state that one in fact does.

The mythal of Silverymoon grants forcecage in the Inner Sactum at will, this spell normally requires a 1500 gp component, but does not state that this is required to cast one from the mythal. One would extrapolate that this applies to xp components as well...

any ideas?

if you tried to pull that on any DM except in a joke campaign, they would slap you. Even if not stated, the DM would houserule that there's no way in hell he's going to let you use limitless wishing for free. Not unless they have a lawyer's ability to twist your words. In which case they would screw you over for every wish.
QuickenedWish
09-19-07, 04:29 PM I will not even try to argue that a wish at will is not broken. But consider for a moment that in order to create such a mythal, a singularly powerful wizard or team of wizards would be required. Also, though the power to grant unlimited wishes is indeed powerful, this ability extends only so far from the mythal, you cannot take this ability with you (unless you made yourself a mythal, but I certainly wouldn't allow that...)

I think this would make for more of the ultimate headquarters than anything else. Unlimited crafting materials (okay that is a little off), you got it, need to know something about someone, you got it, need a plane shift to get you somewhere, yous. It is very handy, but not more broken than any normal epic spellcasting, which is in fact broken...

Pending DM fiat, this is technically possible though right?
Sagetim
09-19-07, 05:24 PM I will not even try to argue that a wish at will is not broken. But consider for a moment that in order to create such a mythal, a singularly powerful wizard or team of wizards would be required. Also, though the power to grant unlimited wishes is indeed powerful, this ability extends only so far from the mythal, you cannot take this ability with you (unless you made yourself a mythal, but I certainly wouldn't allow that...)

I think this would make for more of the ultimate headquarters than anything else. Unlimited crafting materials (okay that is a little off), you got it, need to know something about someone, you got it, need a plane shift to get you somewhere, yous. It is very handy, but not more broken than any normal epic spellcasting, which is in fact broken...

Pending DM fiat, this is technically possible though right?
technically possible, I dunno, never gotten a chance to go over mythals. But if you have limitless wishes, you don't even need to go adventuring. You can wish for anything someone needs to have to be there for them instantly. You could get a society mind to head the organization, then, with them linked to the parties outside, they could instantly fulfill anything required. 'hey bob, I need 25000 gold to appear ten feet in front of me' 'sure thing dan *poof*' 'can I get a Daern's instant fortress?' 'sure, what the hell? *poof*' 'this dragon sleeping here in front of us looks tough, can you do something? like...wish a house to land on it or something?' 'sure...*wishes the dragon to be younger*' 'thanks bob' 'sure thing.'

even without the society mind, you could still establish a bunch of telepathic links to anyone outside the super pimped out mega wish fortress.
ArochanoX
09-20-07, 06:24 AM Seed:
twinned x4 wish (spell level 25)
base spellcraft DC: 55
effect: you create a wish spell as per cast at caster level 20 and 5 times in immediate succession.
casting time: 1 minute
components: verbal, experience 25 000

Now, add factors:
quickened +28 DC
remove xp cost +250 DC

Total DC: 333
Effect: quickened qvintupled wish spell without experience cost.
BillTheManiac
09-20-07, 07:07 AM Seed:
twinned x4 wish (spell level 25)
base spellcraft DC: 55
effect: you create a wish spell as per cast at caster level 20 and 5 times in immediate succession.
casting time: 1 minute
components: verbal, experience 25 000

Now, add factors:
quickened +28 DC
remove xp cost +250 DC

Total DC: 333
Effect: quickened qvintupled wish spell without experience cost.

It's still just a bunch of 8th level spells. Although +5 inherent to all abilities for free is nice.
Sagetim
09-20-07, 08:36 PM It's still just a bunch of 8th level spells. Although +5 inherent to all abilities for free is nice.

limited per day by your epic slots per day of course.
QuickenedWish
09-21-07, 11:39 AM limited per day by your epic slots per day of course.

Well, you only need to wish for an inherent stat increase once...
BillTheManiac
09-21-07, 01:09 PM Let's see how balanced my seed is. With True Anyspell, a 105 DC nets up to a 9th level spell. With mine it would be a 40something DC epic spell, so it's much more powerful. However, I doubt that True Anyspell isn't a little underpowered. hmmmmm.....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bluetooth 06-14-07, 07:03 PM	Ok, this is something I've been thinking about for a long time, and I'm not sure it's a good idea really, but it brings with it a host of other questions. All epic spells, by definition, are more powerful than Wish, but I haven't seen a single one with the flexibility of wish. And while epic spellcasting as a whole is infinitely flexible, any given epic spell is far less so. Furthermore, it seems reasonable to make an epic spell that works exactly like wish, but without the XP cost (which is potentially broken, but I'm still new at this epic stuff so I don't really know for sure). On the surface it seems fairly straitforward, since Wish has a 5000 XP cost, removing it would simply add 50 to whatever the DC was. What means are there to create epic spells that are as useful in as many situations as a spell like Wish?
fnord 06-14-07, 07:23 PM	What means are there to create epic spells that are as useful in as many situations as a spell like Wish? The Shadow seed, from LEoF (along with the Mythal seed). The problem with an xp-less wish is it's ability to produce permanent instantaneous effects. You could sit around for a few years and Wish up millions of gp. Something that I would allow might be: True Anyspell Universal Spellcraft DC: 105 Components:V, S, see text Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: See text Area: See text Duration: See text Saving Throw: See text Spell Resistance: See text To Develop: Some amount Seeds: Miracle (ad hoc 30). Factors: Add an additional spell level (ad hoc +20), Ignore Arcane/Divine Restrictions (ad hoc +15), Ignore Prohibited School (ad hoc +10), one action casting time (+20) Mitigating Factors: To taste. This spell allows the caster to cast any normal spell, up to level 9. If the spell requires an expensive material component, focus, or xp cost, that must be provided/paid. The problem with this is that it doesn't allow much in the way of mitigation (rituals or increased casting time defeat the purpose).
BillTheManiac 06-14-07, 07:52 PM	Seed: Anything DC: 2X When you cast this spell, it works as any epic spell of DC X or lower. Any ad hoc factors or mitigating factors that make the spell situational are illegal (such as a spell that only effects a certain type of creature). For example, if X is 29, you could animate a 20 HD vampire, create a 40' cone of 14d6 sonic damage, or dispel with a +20 bonus. All choices are made at the time of casting.
bluetooth 06-14-07, 08:09 PM	Bill, that's awesome, but it is balanced? Further, what's the cost to develope a spell like that? fnord, Well there's backlash damage, but if the spell your duplicating has a duration of more than 1 round that could be a serious problem. And as dumb as this sounds is the ability to gain nonmagical treasure at will as broken as it sounds? This is fairly easy to accomplish with the Conjure seed. For instance: Endless Treasure Conjuration (Creation) Seeds: Conjure. (21) Factors: Change to 40' radius(+6) Change to Instantaneous (x10) Mitagating Factors: Increase Casting time by 10 minutes (-20) increasing casting time by 10 hours (-20) Increase Casting time to 90 days (-180) Caster becomes stunned for 10d10 rounds (-20) Final DC 30 This spell creates a 40 foot sphere filled entirely with the casters choice of platinum coins, raw mithral or adamantine, or other valuable commodities within the confines of the conjure Seed. Ok, this might not be the best use of 90 days of your time, but it would work (also a much higher caster wouldn't need as many mitagating factors). I don't actually know if this is unbalanced or not, but it seems well within confines of what the conjure seed can do.
BillTheManiac 06-14-07, 09:03 PM	Bill, that's awesome, but it is balanced? Further, what's the cost to develop a spell like that? Balanced? I have no clue. The cost is as a spell of DC 2X. It's an ordinary epic spell, just the effect uses the epic spell development system rather then just a fixed effect.
QuickenedWish 09-19-07, 12:39 AM	Someone mentioned a Mythal? The text states that any spell of 9th level or lower can be a candidate for a vanguard spell. Creating a mythal that grants a 9th level spell at will is well within the bounds of a team or single epic caster. I guess my question is this then, if the mythal were to grant you a wish spell, would you go about paying the xp cost? The text does not state that one in fact does. The mythal of Silverymoon grants forcecage in the Inner Sactum at will, this spell normally requires a 1500 gp component, but does not state that this is required to cast one from the mythal. One would extrapolate that this applies to xp components as well... any ideas?
Sagetim 09-19-07, 02:45 AM	Someone mentioned a Mythal? The text states that any spell of 9th level or lower can be a candidate for a vanguard spell. Creating a mythal that grants a 9th level spell at will is well within the bounds of a team or single epic caster. I guess my question is this then, if the mythal were to grant you a wish spell, would you go about paying the xp cost? The text does not state that one in fact does. The mythal of Silverymoon grants forcecage in the Inner Sactum at will, this spell normally requires a 1500 gp component, but does not state that this is required to cast one from the mythal. One would extrapolate that this applies to xp components as well... any ideas? if you tried to pull that on any DM except in a joke campaign, they would slap you. Even if not stated, the DM would houserule that there's no way in hell he's going to let you use limitless wishing for free. Not unless they have a lawyer's ability to twist your words. In which case they would screw you over for every wish.
QuickenedWish 09-19-07, 04:29 PM	I will not even try to argue that a wish at will is not broken. But consider for a moment that in order to create such a mythal, a singularly powerful wizard or team of wizards would be required. Also, though the power to grant unlimited wishes is indeed powerful, this ability extends only so far from the mythal, you cannot take this ability with you (unless you made yourself a mythal, but I certainly wouldn't allow that...) I think this would make for more of the ultimate headquarters than anything else. Unlimited crafting materials (okay that is a little off), you got it, need to know something about someone, you got it, need a plane shift to get you somewhere, yous. It is very handy, but not more broken than any normal epic spellcasting, which is in fact broken... Pending DM fiat, this is technically possible though right?
Sagetim 09-19-07, 05:24 PM	I will not even try to argue that a wish at will is not broken. But consider for a moment that in order to create such a mythal, a singularly powerful wizard or team of wizards would be required. Also, though the power to grant unlimited wishes is indeed powerful, this ability extends only so far from the mythal, you cannot take this ability with you (unless you made yourself a mythal, but I certainly wouldn't allow that...) I think this would make for more of the ultimate headquarters than anything else. Unlimited crafting materials (okay that is a little off), you got it, need to know something about someone, you got it, need a plane shift to get you somewhere, yous. It is very handy, but not more broken than any normal epic spellcasting, which is in fact broken... Pending DM fiat, this is technically possible though right? technically possible, I dunno, never gotten a chance to go over mythals. But if you have limitless wishes, you don't even need to go adventuring. You can wish for anything someone needs to have to be there for them instantly. You could get a society mind to head the organization, then, with them linked to the parties outside, they could instantly fulfill anything required. 'hey bob, I need 25000 gold to appear ten feet in front of me' 'sure thing dan poof' 'can I get a Daern's instant fortress?' 'sure, what the hell? poof' 'this dragon sleeping here in front of us looks tough, can you do something? like...wish a house to land on it or something?' 'sure...wishes the dragon to be younger' 'thanks bob' 'sure thing.' even without the society mind, you could still establish a bunch of telepathic links to anyone outside the super pimped out mega wish fortress.
ArochanoX 09-20-07, 06:24 AM	Seed: twinned x4 wish (spell level 25) base spellcraft DC: 55 effect: you create a wish spell as per cast at caster level 20 and 5 times in immediate succession. casting time: 1 minute components: verbal, experience 25 000 Now, add factors: quickened +28 DC remove xp cost +250 DC Total DC: 333 Effect: quickened qvintupled wish spell without experience cost.
BillTheManiac 09-20-07, 07:07 AM	Seed: twinned x4 wish (spell level 25) base spellcraft DC: 55 effect: you create a wish spell as per cast at caster level 20 and 5 times in immediate succession. casting time: 1 minute components: verbal, experience 25 000 Now, add factors: quickened +28 DC remove xp cost +250 DC Total DC: 333 Effect: quickened qvintupled wish spell without experience cost. It's still just a bunch of 8th level spells. Although +5 inherent to all abilities for free is nice.
Sagetim 09-20-07, 08:36 PM	It's still just a bunch of 8th level spells. Although +5 inherent to all abilities for free is nice. limited per day by your epic slots per day of course.
QuickenedWish 09-21-07, 11:39 AM	limited per day by your epic slots per day of course. Well, you only need to wish for an inherent stat increase once...
BillTheManiac 09-21-07, 01:09 PM	Let's see how balanced my seed is. With True Anyspell, a 105 DC nets up to a 9th level spell. With mine it would be a 40something DC epic spell, so it's much more powerful. However, I doubt that True Anyspell isn't a little underpowered. hmmmmm.....