Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Witch 04-04-07, 05:04 AM	As most of you know, Dicefreaks is one of the few D&D communities on the internet that specializes in Epic level play. Seeing as how Epic level becomes more complicated, some of us have attempted to give some hints and tips for those of you either running or playing in an epic game. You can find the original topic here (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7224) If you have a question about what I'm copying here, it's more likely that you'll get it answered there. I will be copying some relevant nodes of information over here, however, as I think this is very useable for all who frequently visit this board. More of these advices will come later. Guidelines for 21st Level PC (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11999690&postcount=15) Armor Class Guidelines (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12022336&postcount=31) Epic Spellcasting (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12003883&postcount=17) Epic Spellcasting 2 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12013157&postcount=19)
Starmage21 04-04-07, 08:30 AM	Dicefreaks specializes in high powered epic level play. Youd might think that if youre going to play at 21st+ level that everyone is just going to go "balls to the wall", but not everyone does. I often start my epic games at around 30th level. Not because I like or dont like high powered, but because I want my players to feel like their characters are special, and that they have the power to really change things. At 30th, they should be done with the regular stuff(goblins and orcs etc), and often for some of them, epic is completely new material for them. I usually deny the complete books from my games, with a few choice exceptions(a feat here or there, or a spell, or whatever). They not only overcomplicate an already slow game, but tend to introduce the "power creep" to some extent. In addition I dont allow "dippers" or people with 10,000 classes. Most of the time players will not try to gain extra power rather than choosing an efficient list of feats and a PrC or two. If I have one experienced player among 3 other epic newbs, it can make encounter management a nightmare. I like my players to be able to take turns "leading the show".
spike81101 04-04-07, 09:11 AM	Nice Post! A few things that would be great to add. -Where PC saving throws should be -Where PC's damage per round should be
Taeldrin Laesrash 04-04-07, 09:51 AM	I agree, this is a useful resource. Also, it would be good to give examples of items, spells, feats that can help players reach such high scores (Especially with AC and saves, which must increase expotentially each level). Thirdly, I noticed you didn't cover spells, which would have a lower DC than some special attacks.
Aluroon 04-04-07, 11:08 AM	Dicefreaks specializes in high powered epic level play. Youd might think that if youre going to play at 21st+ level that everyone is just going to go "balls to the wall", but not everyone does. I often start my epic games at around 30th level. Not because I like or dont like high powered, but because I want my players to feel like their characters are special, and that they have the power to really change things. At 30th, they should be done with the regular stuff(goblins and orcs etc), and often for some of them, epic is completely new material for them. I usually deny the complete books from my games, with a few choice exceptions(a feat here or there, or a spell, or whatever). They not only overcomplicate an already slow game, but tend to introduce the "power creep" to some extent. In addition I dont allow "dippers" or people with 10,000 classes. Most of the time players will not try to gain extra power rather than choosing an efficient list of feats and a PrC or two. If I have one experienced player among 3 other epic newbs, it can make encounter management a nightmare. I like my players to be able to take turns "leading the show". So... Blah blah blah, I don't know what I am talking about? Generally speaking the people that actually know something, and by that I mean anything, about epic play know that you'd better have a PRC at level 10 by level 20. If you want to tone down epic play, run CR 20's against your level 30 pcs, thats fine for your game, but don't act like thats the norm at epic, and don't act like being able to survive a round against a CR 30 with a level 30 character is odd.
Witch 04-04-07, 11:59 AM	I agree, this is a useful resource. Also, it would be good to give examples of items, spells, feats that can help players reach such high scores (Especially with AC and saves, which must increase expotentially each level). Thirdly, I noticed you didn't cover spells, which would have a lower DC than some special attacks. Selah's going to cover more terrain with this, most likely. Regarding spells, I can almost guarantee you that the answer on that will be "avoid spells which have no or a negligible effect on a succesful save".
Witch 04-04-07, 12:02 PM	Nice Post! A few things that would be great to add. -Where PC saving throws should be -Where PC's damage per round should be I'll ask Selah if that's coming any time soon. Dicefreaks specializes in high powered epic level play. Youd might think that if youre going to play at 21st+ level that everyone is just going to go "balls to the wall", but not everyone does. These numbers have been extrapolated with officially printed epic monsters. If you're going to play epic games with the ELH monsters, at the CR they're supposed to represent, then you need these figures. In addition I dont allow "dippers" or people with 10,000 classes. Dicefreaks doesn't condone dipping, in general.
runestar 04-05-07, 01:46 AM	I keep getting an error message when I try clicking on the link. Is the site down or something?:confused:
Witch 04-05-07, 06:10 AM	I keep getting an error message when I try clicking on the link. Is the site down or something?:confused: Right now it isn't, but there're some technical difficulties recently - the link works fine for me.
Starmage21 04-05-07, 08:23 AM	I'll ask Selah if that's coming any time soon. These numbers have been extrapolated with officially printed epic monsters. If you're going to play epic games with the ELH monsters, at the CR they're supposed to represent, then you need these figures. Dicefreaks doesn't condone dipping, in general. Im not saying your numbers are wrong at all, just that the material that they create leans towards High-powered.
Aracor 04-05-07, 11:03 AM	Im not saying your numbers are wrong at all, just that the material that they create leans towards High-powered.I don't get how using the numbers straight out of the book leans toward high-powered. Shouldn't straight out of the book be considered the standard?
Selah 04-05-07, 04:18 PM	Starmage21, the numbers used come straight from an analysis of monsters in the Epic Level Handbook. The guidelines I posted up at DF don't include the details on some of the other issues you mention yet simply because I haven't posted them up yet. I have figures on everything mentioned for levels 21 through 30, following which I have several key concepts I want to talk about - Efficient Use of Wealth, Peak Power, Role of the DM, and a few more things. I don't pretend to have things perfectly right. That would just be arrogant and short-sighted. Rather, I have started posting the information to stimulate discussion at DF, and to see how it can be improved. I can say that the use of the guidelines in private playtesting so far has been promising. But I also admit that, since we are dealing with averages, creatures noticeably below average for a CR may prove to need CR adjustment, or else guidelines on how to use them, in order to remain a challenge for PCs of comparable level.
Selah 04-05-07, 04:24 PM	So... Blah blah blah, I don't know what I am talking about? Generally speaking the people that actually know something, and by that I mean anything, about epic play know that you'd better have a PRC at level 10 by level 20. If you want to tone down epic play, run CR 20's against your level 30 pcs, thats fine for your game, but don't act like thats the norm at epic, and don't act like being able to survive a round against a CR 30 with a level 30 character is odd. Actually, you don't have to have a 10 level PrC in your build by the time you reach level 20 to cater for epic play. It often makes it easier, but as wealth steadily contributes to a greater extent to the power of a PC, the specific build becomes somewhat less important. I'm playing a 30th level warlock - and it can be effective at that level simply because the standard class and feat benefits give me a lot of leverage in terms of what I do not need to spend cash on. By themselves, the class and feat benefits do not add up to a particularly powerful build...but because I don't need to worry about certain expenses, I am free to spend a good amount on staves and contingent spells, for example.
Aluroon 04-05-07, 04:57 PM	Actually, you don't have to have a 10 level PrC in your build by the time you reach level 20 to cater for epic play. It often makes it easier, but as wealth steadily contributes to a greater extent to the power of a PC, the specific build becomes somewhat less important. I'm playing a 30th level warlock - and it can be effective at that level simply because the standard class and feat benefits give me a lot of leverage in terms of what I do not need to spend cash on. By themselves, the class and feat benefits do not add up to a particularly powerful build...but because I don't need to worry about certain expenses, I am free to spend a good amount on staves and contingent spells, for example. You know the Point I was trying to make Selah, you don't want to miss out on epic bonus feats to dip for class features.
Witch 04-05-07, 07:16 PM	Short version: Attacks - to hit AC 40, touch AC 15, flat footed AC 37. Attacks vs paragons - to hit AC 50, touch 42, flat-footed 41. Armor Class - 47 Hit points - 183 (tanks or melee-ers should exceed this as much as they can manage! Double would be good) Special Ability save DCs - 35. Skills - +50 for effective skill use (where opposed checks are involved). Damage - 96hp/round minimum. Saves - +26 for your worst save. Longer version (notes added) Attacks Non-templated CR 21 creatures averaged an AC of 37, with a standard deviation of 6. This means that most of the armor classes for CR 21 creatures can be found in a spread between AC 25 and AC 49. If we take the Mu Spore out (since it is significantly lower in its AC), we get an average AC of 40, with a standard deviation of only 2. This gives us a tighter, more realistic figure to work with (AC will tend to be between 36 and 44). This means that a 21st level tank, whose iconic role is to be able to hit and hurt, needs to have an attack bonus that hits AC 40 on as many attacks as possible. This does not take into account the higher AC average for paragon creatures (50, std dev 2). Touch Attacks Once again, I've taken the Mu Spore out of the mix of analysis - a quick look at its stats will show why I treat it as an anomaly in the AC dept! Average touch AC is only 15 (std dev 2). This figure is a lot easier to hit, but should not be easily obtained with a magic item (eg a perma-wraithstrike weapon should not be cheap!). Feats, class abilities, expensive magic items - these are all appropriate ways to target a touch AC instead of a full AC for a tank or other weapon-user (as opposed to spell/power-user). This stat may be more important to focus on for the wizard or other spellcaster; ranged touch attack spells often have no saving throw, so they should quickly become a mainstay of your offense. Paragon creatures average touch AC 42 (std dev 3). Flat-footed Attacks Only slightly better than true AC, the average for flat-footed AC here (sans the Mu Spore) is 37 (std dev 5). Paragons are only slightly higher at 41 (std dev 3). Armor Class Since non-paragon creatures average first attacks of +37 (std dev is 4, so generally the best you will face for CR 21 is an attack bonus of no more than +45 - I don't have paragon figures yet), you want an AC of at least 10 pts higher - 47. This means the creature has a 50% chance of hitting you on its primary attacks. More importantly, it means that the monster can't treat you as a Power Attack magnet. If a creature can hit you harder and still hit, it generally will do so (short of DM plot device). Hit Points How tough should you be? This is a difficult question, since you should be relying on some buffs in combat, plus healing, to mitigate what may be relatively low hit points. CR 21 creatures (not paragon) average 122 pts of damage in a round where they hit with all their attacks (includes additional damage for chance of crits). You probably want to have hp about 150% of that figure - 183hp - at a minimum if you are going toe to toe. If you have a higher AC than is strictly needed, or decent fast healing/regen/damage reduction, or other generally effective damage countermeasures (total concealment - beware of true seeing - can help offset lower hp, for example), you can get by on less. But if you have less than the 183hp, you run the risk of dying in a single round - better hope you have a cleric handy with revivify on hand (or, even better, a contingent version!). Special Ability save DCs At 21st level, you can still hope for some save or die spells to be of use. Average Fort saves (not paragon) are +25; Ref saves are about +20; Will saves are about +21. Your special ability save DCs need to offer some chance of breaking through those saves. If you have limited access to the ability, you would want at least a 50% chance of getting through the saving throws. If you have extensive access, and are willing to spam the use of the ability, you might accept as low as a 10% chance (20% is better, obviously). The guidelines assume the former situation - limited availability - in which case save DCs should aim for a DC of 35. This is already quite difficult to do, and may not be worth the wealth impact (eg a Str based special ability could have a DC of 10 + 1/2 levels (21) + Str mod (needs 40 in this case) to hit the suggested DC. If you start with a 20 in Str (18 + racial mod), spend all your level increases to 21st level on Str (+5), have an inherent +5 bonus to Str (+5), you would still need to depend on an item of Str +6 and a spell that grants a non-enhancement bonus to Str of +4 in order to hit that DC). Note that some abilities become increasingly redundant in epic levels - mind-affecting spells, for example. As the needed DC increases, you will find that limited availability special abilities with saves simply aren't worth focusing on from a numbers point of view. Skills - Where opposed skills are a concern, the monsters at CR 21 (non-paragon) have an average of 32 Hit Dice. That means that their best skills will be at 35 ranks, plus ability modifiers. You should expect to need a +40 in skills that involve opposed checks, in order to be on roughly even footing. To be effective, increase by 10 to +50. If you are relying on feinting on combat...you will find it increasingly harder to use it effectively (since BAB plus Sense Motive check is involved for the monster - not good when facing most epic Outsiders in particular!). Damage - CR 21 creatures average 385hp, but also tend to have fast healing, damage reduction, regeneration, resistances, or immunities as damage-mitigators. If you aim for 1/4 of that total per round, or 96hp damage per round as a minimum, you should be able to punch through those hp fairly quickly (which is important - protracted fights drain more resources, and many epic creatures simply have too much staying power for you to afford a long battle with them). This damage dealing ability should be looked at over the entire party, such that one character can be in excess of this amount, and another beneath, so long as it all adds up to 4 x 96. Note that the fewer the number of attacks that you have that you deal the damage in, the better - because that way more damage affects the creature, instead of being deflected away with damage mitigators. Saves - SLA save DCs are lower than SuA or ExA save DCs at this stage, so the focus is on SuA and ExA save DCs from the monsters. The key number is 26 - 10 less than the average for such abilities at this CR. If your worst save equals 26, then you will pass your saves better than 50% of the time. Generally speaking, Reflex saves can be lower than this figure, due to the lack of save-or-die (or similar) Reflex save effects/abilities. Speed and Maneuverability - It is much harder to provide a definite speed requirement for a 21st level PC than with many other figures. It is perhaps more important to understand the speed of the enemies, and prepare accordingly. Land speeds, for creatures that rely on them, are now at least 40 ft or better, and generally 60 ft. Flight speed of the chichimec is 200 ft (perfect), and dragons are pulling up to 300 ft. (admittedly with far worse maneuverability...but that speed should not be discounted!). To top it off, many Outsiders have already have greater teleport at will for several CR ratings prior to this point, meaning that even if land speed is down, the ability to quickly seize an opportunity remains a huge advantage to the enemy - if you allow it to be. I would suggest that long-term flight be available to a 21st level PC (the fly spell by itself may suffice for your purposes, depending on your strategy with dealing with faster creatures), and generally I have seen PCs using my guidelines prefer to bump their speed up to much higher levels - such as fly 150 ft., using the ring of solar wings, and even higher by coupling with the admittedly-in-need-of-revision boots of swiftness. Haste increases speed, if you want to do things on the cheap - and that includes fly speeds - such that you can fly 90 ft (or 70 ft in medium or heavy armor) with the application of only two relatively low level spells. You can get around being slower than your enemy if you have to, but it is better to at least be comparable. Sun Tzu wrote ""What is of the greatest importance in war is extraordinary speed: One cannot afford to neglect opportunity." If your enemy is more mobile and more versatile than your are, then the battle will often not go well for you. Another Sun Tzu quote for you all: "Speed is the essence of war. Take advantage of the enemy's unpreparedness; travel by unexpected routes and strike him where has taken no precautions." Resistances and Immunities - The final comment I have to make on play at this level is to take note of those attacks which kill you quickly. Death effects are nasty, so immunity is important. Same with negative levels. Sheltered vitality protects against ability damage, spell immunity should probably include any of the blasphemy type spells in its list of what you are protected against, and disjunction can be counterspelled with a Contingent Spell of the same name set up for that purpose. Clerics should be packing revivify, energy immunity (or at least protection from energy and resist energy), your typical heals and restorations, and a whole lot of other useful spells. Don't fool yourself into thinking that grappling will go your way at epic levels! Pack an item with continuous freedom of movement, or else go the Contingent Spell route again and do what you can to protect against the contingency being dispelled. There is an awful lot that could be considered here, so I can really only say: be prepared. You're supposed to have fought your way through to 21st level, so you should already be aware of the sorts of high level attacks you would face. Reduce their impact ahead of time, as much as possible.
Azar_of_Faerun 04-06-07, 03:50 AM	Isn't board advertising something that falls under solicitation and spam?
Witch 04-06-07, 06:20 AM	Okay, so you've hit 21st level, and you want to take Epic Spellcasting. Is it worth it? I bring this up now because I've got most of the guidelines up for 21st level (still need to put up speed and...a couple of other issues. Immunities and resistances for one.), and that gives us some scope to consider this issue properly. Hitting all of the guidelines is not particularly easy. In playtesting at that level, some PCs opted to be under in some areas in the interest of being stronger in others...others just had no choice but to be under without compensating overpowered areas. Efficient use of wealth was key. Cash was stretched to its limits. And, although I've assumed CR to be collectively correct for analysis purposes, the wealth tables are absolute. That is how much your PC should have at that level. Less is death to the PC. More is...well, it's a more powerful PC. In case people missed an issue which I will bring up again, the wealth levels in epic play are the only true absolute. All PCs at a particular level should have the same level of wealth available to them, even if some of them choose to use that poorly. Epic spells count against wealth. Forget the XP costs at this stage...it's all about the gold. At 21st level, you only have 975,000gp to spend. I analysed the impact of epic spells vs PC wealth (and NPC wealth) as part of the Epicatechism project, and the basic results will follow below. It has been assumed that a responsible DM will allow an appropriate spell for the level in question at a Spellcraft DC as noted. While some have demonstrated that epic spellcasting can abuse certain issues to cast powerful spells much more cheaply, it is my belief that Responsible DMing should disallow such epic spells, in the interest of balance and enjoyment of the game for all parties. The Spellcraft DC is not assumed to be the best possible at that level. Indeed, such an approach would only further prove my point to follow. Spellcaster Spellcraft Epic Spell Cost (gp) Percentage Level Modifier DC of Wealth ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 21 +30 40 360,000 37% 25 +36 46 414,000 20% 30 +43 53 477,000 11% 35 +49 59 531,000 7% 40 +55 65 585,000 4.5% 45 +61 71 639,000 3% 50 +67 77 693,000 2% The following demonstrates epic spell costs as a percentage of wealth for NPCs (assumes the same spellcraft modifiers): Spellcaster Spellcraft Epic Spell Cost (gp) Percentage Level Modifier DC of Wealth ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 21 +30 40 360,000 150% 25 +36 46 414,000 118% 30 +43 53 477,000 84% 35 +49 59 531,000 58% 40 +55 65 585,000 40% 45 +61 71 639,000 27% 50 +67 77 693,000 18% For NPCs, Epic Spells must be reduced in DC (and, the responsible DM should ensure, in power) to work with NPC wealth. NPCs probably shouldn't have epic spells prior to 40th level (more likely 50th level) if you are looking for anything other than a Glass Cannon NPC. (Keep in mind that a Glass Cannon NPC with most of its wealth tied up in a single epic spell does not present problems in terms of too much wealth being left for PCs!) For PCs, you can handle a single epic spell by about 30th level (considering all the other things you need to take into account - even then, you won't hit some of the guidelines I put up with many builds!). That's a feat for a single epic spell. Personally, I wouldn't look at epic spells prior to 40th level as a PC. If the DM needs an epic spell used before then, make it an artifact that has a one-off use of such a spell, or a few charges of such a spell, and have the PCs understand that it is to be used in a particular way to help them in some quest. The limited nature of it means that you can ignore it for wealth for everything except those times, and then have it be a key issue in overcoming a difficult obstacle. (XP awards would then be reduced due to them being "more powerful" for that fight.) Another alternative is to offer the artifact with epic spells in it again as an ongoing resource, for a buff spell that makes up for those players who really struggle to deal with epic challenges. Perhaps it boosts AC and saves 3/day. However, it is better that either players learn how to efficiently use their wealth, or DMs provide appropriate treasure, rather than offering epic spells on artifacts. So, to sum up: Epic Spells - wait for High Epic play (40th level and over), if at all. However, I have also contemplated some ways to introduce epic spells sooner - but that requires ad hoc adjustment by a DM who is very in tune with how the power levels of the PCs are running. And that discussion is for another time.
Selah 04-07-07, 06:22 AM	Isn't board advertising something that falls under solicitation and spam? Hi AoF, The CoC specifically says "advertising or promoting a business or commercial site" constitutes a breach. Since Dicefreaks is neither a business nor a commercial site (it sells nothing, and doesn't even have ads), it would appear that no breach of the CoC has occurred. If you have additional concerns, I suggest you take it up with a WizO. On the other hand, if you're interested in perusing the material and offering some thoughts, that would be most welcome. Thanks again for your kind attention on this thread. :)
Witch 04-07-07, 06:32 AM	On Epic Spells Selah, do you happen to have guidelines on which epic spells should be allowed and which shouldn't? It is, after all, fairly easy to acquire a DC 15 spell by level 21 that grants a +20 armor bonus for a few days; it is also fairly easy to acquire a bonus that grants about 30 to an ability score. It doesn't even require really abuse of mitigating factors. One problem with epic spellcasting is that the cost of the spell is based on the post mitigation DC. If anything, making a more powerful spell available earlier should cost you more to develop, not less. Selah, do you happen to have guidelines on which epic spells should be allowed and which shouldn't? It is, after all, fairly easy to acquire a DC 15 spell by level 21 that grants a +20 armor bonus for a few days; it is also fairly easy to acquire a bonus that grants about 30 to an ability score. It doesn't even require really abuse of mitigating factors. You can (and should) look at it in a couple of ways. First of all, I'll talk about Efficiency of Wealth soon. That is, paying as little as possible for certain benefits. For example, a cloak of resistance +6 costs 360,000gp (IIRC) for a +6 to all saves. Its efficiency is 60,000. An item that grants a +1 sacred, +1 insight, +1 luck, +1 resistance, +1 competence, and +1 morale bonus to AC costs 15,500gp but still grants the same net effect to all saves - its efficiency is 2,584, or, in other words, it is more than 23 times more efficient to use the second item than the first in a build. With efficiency of wealth, there is a limit within established rules as to how cheaply you can obtain increases to armor class, for example (since you cite that as an example of an epic spell to consider). If the DM is generally aware of how much an efficient +20 to AC costs, that can then be used as a guideline to determine whether an epic spell doing the same thing is balanced. In other words, the cost of the epic spell needs to reflect the value of the effect. The epic spell could probably be allowed a discount to reflect the fact that disjunction can disjoin it, and that it can be dispelled (at least, it can in low epic...mid to high epic has its own problems in that regard, unless all spellcasters are forced into Epic Spellcasting). It may also be worth a "discount" in comparative purposes because the PC has to take a feat to develop the spell in the first place. However, that is best assessed in game. The other thing is to compare the spell to existing spells. Look at the DC of the various seeds to determine approximate "levels" of spells up to 9th level within the epic system. If the spell is offering something more powerful than a spell of similar level would allow, then don't allow it, or else allow it at a higher spellcraft DC (I call this the "DM ad hoc factor", and it is absolutely vital - IMO - for the use of epic spells in a game). Oh. One other thing. Look at the final effect. Does the spell make the PC much more powerful than without it? Does it make the party much more powerful than without it? Does it fit within the guidelines? If it makes the PC or party more powerful, but they are correspondingly weaker elsewhere (and I mean weaker in a way that will hurt the party in play, not just appear weak on paper), then it may balance out. Too much on this scale, and the PCs become glass cannons - which should be avoided anyway, so such an epic spell might be disallowed on that basis alone. If the addition of the spell into the mix actually helps the party to be balanced for its level, then it is perfect. A spell offering a decent damaging offensive option in order to offset poor spell choice by a spellcaster at non-epic levels (eg sorcerer) is good. A spell which is powerful enough to kill equivalently CRed creatures in one hit every time is not. If that doesn't help, I'd like to eventually post some new epic spells that follow these thoughts...but that would be at the very end, I would say.
Starmage21 04-07-07, 10:56 AM	On Epic Spells You can (and should) look at it in a couple of ways. First of all, I'll talk about Efficiency of Wealth soon. That is, paying as little as possible for certain benefits. For example, a cloak of resistance +6 costs 360,000gp (IIRC) for a +6 to all saves. Its efficiency is 60,000. An item that grants a +1 sacred, +1 insight, +1 luck, +1 resistance, +1 competence, and +1 morale bonus to AC costs 15,500gp but still grants the same net effect to all saves - its efficiency is 2,584, or, in other words, it is more than 23 times more efficient to use the second item than the first in a build. With efficiency of wealth, there is a limit within established rules as to how cheaply you can obtain increases to armor class, for example (since you cite that as an example of an epic spell to consider). If the DM is generally aware of how much an efficient +20 to AC costs, that can then be used as a guideline to determine whether an epic spell doing the same thing is balanced. In other words, the cost of the epic spell needs to reflect the value of the effect. The epic spell could probably be allowed a discount to reflect the fact that disjunction can disjoin it, and that it can be dispelled (at least, it can in low epic...mid to high epic has its own problems in that regard, unless all spellcasters are forced into Epic Spellcasting). It may also be worth a "discount" in comparative purposes because the PC has to take a feat to develop the spell in the first place. However, that is best assessed in game. The other thing is to compare the spell to existing spells. Look at the DC of the various seeds to determine approximate "levels" of spells up to 9th level within the epic system. If the spell is offering something more powerful than a spell of similar level would allow, then don't allow it, or else allow it at a higher spellcraft DC (I call this the "DM ad hoc factor", and it is absolutely vital - IMO - for the use of epic spells in a game). Oh. One other thing. Look at the final effect. Does the spell make the PC much more powerful than without it? Does it make the party much more powerful than without it? Does it fit within the guidelines? If it makes the PC or party more powerful, but they are correspondingly weaker elsewhere (and I mean weaker in a way that will hurt the party in play, not just appear weak on paper), then it may balance out. Too much on this scale, and the PCs become glass cannons - which should be avoided anyway, so such an epic spell might be disallowed on that basis alone. If the addition of the spell into the mix actually helps the party to be balanced for its level, then it is perfect. A spell offering a decent damaging offensive option in order to offset poor spell choice by a spellcaster at non-epic levels (eg sorcerer) is good. A spell which is powerful enough to kill equivalently CRed creatures in one hit every time is not. If that doesn't help, I'd like to eventually post some new epic spells that follow these thoughts...but that would be at the very end, I would say. depending on the bonus type granted by the spell, it's not useful for everyone. Chances are that cheap +20 AC epic spell grants an enhancement bonus to AC, and for the sword and board fighter already has +10 ehancement bonus to his AC(5 from the shield, 5 from armor). The wizard has the most to gain from an armor spell, but since when did you have trouble hitting him anyway(even with a +20 bonus to AC)? An epic spell that grants the wizard the most expensive bonus to his casting attribute he can afford is also going to be a task to develop. Its already going to overlap any magic item he is wearing to do the same thing, and it's likely to be so expensive the whole party is going to have to chip into the cash required and the XP is going to make him wait about a level and a half just to afford to create the spell. Epic spells can be useful, but alot like epic magic items you should be waiting for a few levels past 21 to get them. It can take alot of cash and XP that you just wont have the luxury of giving up until you have a few epic feats to make sure you survive at a level or two below the rest of the party.
Witch 04-07-07, 11:03 AM	Note, Starmage, as said earlier, Epic Spells aren't there to stack with items, they're there mostly to replace them, possibly a higher bonus at a cheaper cost, with balancing factors :) Also, a mage is expected to have 47 AC at level 21, lest he be power attacked to death. At higher levels, he'll need higher AC, which will mean these sort of spells become useful.
bluemage55 04-07-07, 04:55 PM	I strongly feel that Selah is going about this the wrong way. Many of the creatures in the ELH were poorly designed and have inappropriate CRs, and basing the guidelines upon them would be a mistake. The guidelines should instead be based upon reasonably optimized PCs, and the monster CRs should in turn be based upon those guidelines.
Taeldrin Laesrash 04-07-07, 05:17 PM	You've got a good point, Bluemage. However, if the WotC standard (However ridiculous) ignored, we've got little else as a basis. At least with this, we get a decent idea of what the stats should approach.
bluemage55 04-07-07, 05:24 PM	I think that a better basis would be PCs. In other words, if you construct a basic iconic build, how would the stats come out? The ELH includes sample iconic NPC stats, so all we would have to do is convert those to 3.5 and then give them appropriate wealth for PCs, and we'll see how the ranges are supposed to look. I feel that basing expected AC/saves/hp/etc. values on those would be more appropriate than the monsters.
Witch 04-07-07, 05:58 PM	But WotC builds crappy NPCs ;) And wealth is a significant factor in this regard. So significant, in fact, that someone spending it decently will likely be about double as strong as someone who doesn't :)
Selah 04-07-07, 06:18 PM	I think that a better basis would be PCs. In other words, if you construct a basic iconic build, how would the stats come out? The ELH includes sample iconic NPC stats, so all we would have to do is convert those to 3.5 and then give them appropriate wealth for PCs, and we'll see how the ranges are supposed to look. I feel that basing expected AC/saves/hp/etc. values on those would be more appropriate than the monsters. I respect your position, Bluemage. My dilemma with that approach (which I had considered) is that any two people who follow it will come up with different ideas on how powerful an iconic build should be. Part of the reason for going about things the way I am doing it is because the guidelines mean that people will produce similar PCs in certain respects as a result of them. Not similar flavorwise. But similar in terms of "toughness". While I agree that more than one ELH creature is likely to be mis-CRed, I also believe that a large part of the problem with fighting them has been inappropriately built PCs. Too powerful, or (as I've seen far more often) not powerful enough. If we assume that CR is collectively correct in the ELH, we have an absolute that can be worked with. Not so with iconic PCs. Build the PCs to what we have to work with. If, after doing that, we find that PCs simply cannot reach the guidelines offered (and I'll admit that it can be difficult), we know that the guidelines need to be lowered, and some monsters need to be CRed differently. I'm fairly certain you'll still disagree with me, and I would be happy for you to do up your own iconic epic PC stats to provide your own guidelines. I'd be interested in seeing the results.
Taeldrin Laesrash 04-07-07, 06:35 PM	So we'll have one of us build a sample, relatively optimized epic character. Not a really big deal. I've started on a fighter already (Core and PHBII, if balance arguements are to be made).
bluemage55 04-07-07, 07:37 PM	I'm fairly certain you'll still disagree with me, and I would be happy for you to do up your own iconic epic PC stats to provide your own guidelines. I'd be interested in seeing the results. I do, but I respect your position as well. I think that I will indeed revise the NPC statistics and give them PC wealth, and then we can examine and learn from the ranges presented from both of our work.
Taeldrin Laesrash 04-07-07, 08:38 PM	Well, here's an epic PC as an example for numbers. Slayem Ahl Male Human Fighter 21 LN Abilities (32-pt. buy) Str 32 -- (16 base, +5 levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement)(10 pts) Dex 15 -- (13 base, +2 enhancement) (5 pts) Con 21 -- (16 base, +5 inherent) (10 pts) Int 10 -- (10 base)(2 pts) Wis 14-- (12 base, +2 enhancement) (4 pts) Cha 9 -- (9 base)(1 pts) Hit Points 235 (21d10, max at 1st level, then 5.5 average, plus Constitution) AC 42, Touch 14, Flat 40; plus 20% displacement Init +6 BAB +20, Grap +31 Speed 30 ft. Fort +24 (+12 base, +5 Con, +5 resistance, +1 competence, +1 insight), Ref +15 (+6 base, +2 Dex, +5 resistance, +1 competence, +1 insight), Will +15 (+6 base, +2 Wis, +5 resistance, +1 competence, +1 insight) +41/+31/+26/+21 (+5 on any one attack after the 1st) melee, +5 Parrying Collision Longsword, 1d8+21, 19-20/x2. +36 Climb (24 ranks, +11 Str, +1 competence) +36 Jump (24 ranks, +11 Str, +1 competence) +15 (12 cross-class ranks, +2 Wis, +1 competence) Feats -Power Attack -Weapon Focus (Longsword) -Dodge -Mobility -Improved Initiative -Weapon Specialization (Longsword) -Spring Attack -Improved Sunder -Greater Weapon Focus (Longsword) -Combat Brute -Improved Bull Rush -Greater Weapon Specialization (Longsword) -Melee Weapon Mastery-Slashing -Shock Trooper -Bounding Assault -Shield Specialization (Heavy -Weapon Supremacy (Longsword) -Rapid Blitz -Shield Ward -Penetrate Damage Reduction Magical Equipment: +5 Parrying Collision Longsword +5 Mithril Breastplate of Heavy Fortification +5 Heavy Steel Shield of Reflection Minor Cloak of Displacement Ring of Protection +5 Minor Ring of Universal Energy Resistance Vest of Resistence +5 Amulet of Natural Armor +5 Winged Boots Belt of Giant Strength +6 Manual of Gainful Exercise +5 Manual of Bodily Health +5 Ioun Stones: Pale Green Prism, Deep Red Sphere, Incandescent Blue Sphere Note that while Slayem has put numerous resources into increasing his Strength score, it still remains 32, low compared to Selah's recommendations. His saves, also, are low compared to the Save DC of a Chichimec's special abilities (With a stated CR of 21, it is a decent match). Said Chichimec will hit this fighter on a 3 or above, as his AC is only 42. Through intelligent item buying, though, the chance is reduced to about a 93% chance of being slammed by the abomination. In addition, the recommended 93 hp/round output can only be done on a full-round attack; Slayem can do up to 3d8+63 damage through Rapid Blitz if his target moves. However, Slayem will always hit the Chichimec. As a result of his extreme specialization with the longsword, he has a +41 attack bonus to its 39 AC.
runestar 04-07-07, 10:38 PM	You are in a party, with access to special abilities from other PCs. I would take full advantage of that. Your analysis is not wrong, but it seems to have failed to take into account a few factors. Replace penetrate dr with epic weapon focus? You could replace the mithral breastplate with a mithral fullplate, meaning the chichemic hits him only on a natural 20. Maybe lower con to 15 and cha to 8, and pump int to 13 for expertise. Scrap the wis ioun stone and get a gloves of dex+4. If the party has a ring of spell storing, this can be used to pass around righteous mights. If the party has an incantatrix, he can proceed to persist this on the fighter, boosting his str to 40 and making him large. Likewise, the fighter can use an animated shield, freeing up both hands for better power attack damage. I am not sure what parrying and collision do. Though I could lower the weapon's enhancement bonus to +1, leaving more room for other weapon properties, and relying on an extended greater magic weapon to increase its enhancement bonus to +5. At the same time, the whole party should be feasting on a heroes' feast every morning to get immunity to poison and fear. In addition, mindblank can be cast on the fighter for blanket immunity to mind effects. Alternatively, cast greater heroism got +4 morale bonus to-hit, translating into more damage from power attack. Maybe splash 1 lv of barb for rage(taking extra rage as well)? Or play an orc for the extra +4str. So many possibilities abound.:)
Witch 04-08-07, 08:40 AM	(Includes Anomalies) Character AC Level --------------------- 21 47 22 46 23 53 24 65 25 59 26 44 27 64 28 71 29 64 30 72 I'd like to point out a couple of issues. The ha-naga pulls the figures down for CR 22. Considering that the strength of this creature is really its ability to cast as a 21st level sorcerer, I considered the number an anomaly. Without its attack in the mix, we have an AC requirement of 50 at 22nd level. 24th level includes three bruiser monsters, out of four sampled. This pulls the AC requirement up. Interestingly, the damage dealt by these attacks is less than the average for CR 23 creatures or CR 25 creatures - if we considered Power Attack of about 10 pts as required for the creatures to be damaging effectively for CR (which is about right, once again going off averages), the AC requirement dips to 55. 26th level includes 3 "touch attackers". If we take them out of the mix, the infernal suggests we need an AC of 68. The infernal's damage is decent, meaning we don't have to consider it power attacking to justify a drop in AC below this point, but the figure still appears to be an anomaly. I'll recommend AC 61 at this level. 28th level is heavier on bruisers once again. However, the prismasaurus really needs to be power attacking to do appropriate damage (it deals half the damage with melee attacks that the leshay or the 3-headed sirrush do, for example). If we take its attack out of the mix, we get an AC requirement of 66, which fits well with the progression we are seeing. 29th level only has the hagumemnon to consider (the demi-lich, being a templated creature, was disqualified for this particular analysis, besides the fact that it is not a melee monster!), which throws the numbers out again. I would recommend an AC of 69 at this level. Which gives us the following: Armor Class Guidelines (Adjusted) Character AC Level --------------------- 21 47 22 50 23 53 24 55 25 59 26 61 27 64 28 66 29 69 30 72 To make it even prettier, for these 10 levels at least, we could assume that it is still appropriate if we progress AC by +3, +3, +2 (47, 50, 53, 55, 58, 61, 63, 66, 69, 71). The benefit of this is purely for extrapolation in higher levels, where we have fewer creatures available to analyse. However, I also think that these numbers will become irrelevent once Peak Power is reached, and AC increases are too expensive to maintain at this level of increase. For the moment, though, the extrapolated ACs up to level 50 are as follows (I will add comments as to how appropriate these figures are at a later point, after getting the numbers ready): Character AC Level --------------------- 21 47 22 50 23 53 24 55 25 58 26 61 27 63 28 66 29 69 30 71 31 74 32 77 33 79 34 82 35 85 36 87 37 90 38 93 39 95 40 98 41 101 42 103 43 106 44 109 45 111 46 114 47 117 48 119 49 122 50 125 I'll point out again that I believe that this progression can't have continued as I have put it, but will necessarily have reduced in its speed of progression. However, I (or someone else that beats me to it) will still post the impact on wealth for maintaining such levels of AC at 5 level progressions, so that we can understand the impact. (This will also help me to start to hone in on where Power Peak occurs.)
Witch 04-08-07, 08:46 AM	Updated 21st level guidelines with speed, resistances and immunities.
Taeldrin Laesrash 04-08-07, 09:45 AM	Runestar, you make a good point. However, I can justify some of my choices. As far as abilities go, I want to keep the saves at an all-around high, since this sample has neither Steadfast Determination, Slippery Mind, or any of that. Penetrate DR is necessary until an epic weapon can be acquired, which is more than a few levels away. As far as armor goes, I never really liked speed restrictions due to armor, and conventional WotC supplments don't have anything to solve that (Do they?) Mobility is still an important issue, especially considering these monsters typically have movement rates of 50 ft./round or above. Thirdly, you are right about party benefits. However, self-sufficiency cannot be ignored, due to the variety of monsters with dispelling capabilities, and the length of certain buffs. Buffs such as Heroism, Righteous Might, or Divine Favor may add up to another 4 or 5 points to attacks, damage, and saves. Finally, I'll admit, the character I put together was rather conventional. Certain steps can be taken to increase some of these numbers, most notably the use of custom items. For example, trade out the Ring of Minor Universal Energy Resistance, and replacing it with a Ring of Greater Heroism (As the spell) can increase saves, attacks, and such. Add a sacred or profane AC bonus to the Ring of Deflection (Adding about 50,000 gp to the worth). Similarly, put another type of save bonus on the Vest of Resistance. These things do increase the numbers of the epic character, though I still don't think it'll be enough to keep up with the poorly-designed ELH monsters.
Elessar Lespin 04-08-07, 10:11 AM	Does anyone have any advice on how to mitigate the time spent in actual combat at epic levels? Frankly, by the time you hit the 30's, there seems to be little time for descriptive flavor text and actual plot in between the hours spent in combat. I've taken to carrying around a scientific calculator whenever I know I'm going to be running my epic campaign. <me> Roll to hit... 8 times. <player> rolls <me> Okay now I need to roll a 50% miss for all of those...... Okay you hit with 5. Roll for damage. <player> Okay I had ??, ??, ?? and ?? cast on me. One of those I cast this round, the rest carry over from last round. <player> Rolls dice. Okay for base damage I do 1d8 + 37. Now I add X fire damage and X unholy damage. Then I add +3d6 because bla-blah-blah, and........ You get the idea. Just wondered if any of the sages on here have developed any shortcut methods to cut down or shorten drastically the average combat round. (Sorry if this cuts into the on-going discussion but it is relevant to the thread).
runestar 04-08-07, 10:20 AM	Your argument is not without its merits as well, since it seems that we look for different things when building characters. That is fine with me. However, by this time, I feel I should be seeking to acquire outright immunities to common forms of attacks whenever possible, rather than just jacking my saves. I know there are armour properties which grant death ward, mindblank and other goodies. Also, while buffs can be dispelled, I feel they are useful nonetheless for using up the otherwise underutilized lower lv slots of spellcasters. Spells like bless/aid, prayer, haste and heroism just never get old for me. But I have a few clarifications I would like to make. Penetrate DR is necessary until an epic weapon can be acquired, which is more than a few levels away. The feat has been updated for 3.5. Here is the new version. PENETRATE DAMAGE REDUCTION [EPIC] Select a special material, such as adamantine. Benefit: The character melee weapons (including natural weapons) are treated as being crafted from the chosen special material for the purposes of bypassing the damage reduction of any creature the character strikes. None of the other special properties of special materials are gained by the character’s melee weapons. Special: A character can gain this feat multiple times. Each time the feat is selected the character selects a different special material. The character’s melee attacks are treated as being crafted of all chosen materials for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction. You understand now why I am not so hot about it, despite the prevalence of dr/epic.:) I don't mind fast healing for its take-and-forget nature(if I survive combat, it is as good as not taking any damage, since I will be back to full hp in minutes).
Witch 04-08-07, 10:20 AM	Just wondered if any of the sages on here have developed any shortcut methods to cut down or shorten drastically the average combat round. (Sorry if this cuts into the on-going discussion but it is relevant to the thread). Personally, I mostly play Epic games in play-by-post, which solves the problem. In real life - I think taking averages might be a good idea, except at dramatic turns of events.
Starmage21 04-08-07, 12:15 PM	Personally, I mostly play Epic games in play-by-post, which solves the problem. In real life - I think taking averages might be a good idea, except at dramatic turns of events. Its not so bad if youve got players who spend the time to calculate all that stuff in a clear manner on their character sheets, and know what to roll when its time for damage.
bluemage55 04-08-07, 06:59 PM	I keep my laptop handy when playing table-top and so do some of my other players, so we can just use dice-rolling programs when a lot need to be rolled.
Azar_of_Faerun 04-08-07, 07:44 PM	He can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until I am bored to death.[
Selah 04-08-07, 07:55 PM	He can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until I am bored to death. Azar...I'd love to answer your question...if I understood it. Or comment on your statement. Could you clarify? I have the 'flu at the moment, so the way your comment/question (?) relates to this thread may just be lost on my poor, throbbing head. Looking forward to you making things clear for me! On another point, Dicefreaks is currently down, so I won't be posting new epicatechisms material for a little bit.
Taeldrin Laesrash 04-08-07, 10:31 PM	Your argument is not without its merits as well, since it seems that we look for different things when building characters. That is fine with me. However, by this time, I feel I should be seeking to acquire outright immunities to common forms of attacks whenever possible, rather than just jacking my saves. I know there are armour properties which grant death ward, mindblank and other goodies. I agree. Armor traits like Soulfire and Heavy Fortification can be extremely useful, but they replace what could otherwise be also-needed AC and save bonuses. Custom items that provide these immunities (Like a Soulfire Shirt) are the way to go at this level, not replacing Cloaks of Resistance and magical armor. Also, while buffs can be dispelled, I feel they are useful nonetheless for using up the otherwise underutilized lower lv slots of spellcasters. Spells like bless/aid, prayer, haste and heroism just never get old for me. True. However, magic items and class abilities tend to grant greater bonuses than these spells; putting haste, greater heroism, and divine favor together on a target will grant a total of +8 to hit, +3 to damage, +4 to saves, and +1 to AC. Not to mention that they can be a pain to keep track of. You understand now why I am not so hot about it, despite the prevalence of dr/epic.:) I don't mind fast healing for its take-and-forget nature(if I survive combat, it is as good as not taking any damage, since I will be back to full hp in minutes). Gah...Darn you, WotC. Fast Healing does work, except that you'd need a Constitution of 25 to get it. Most melee figures would rather boost their Strength.