[Fight update + new questions] Paralyzed and soon to die? [Archive] - Wizards Community

[Fight update + new questions] Paralyzed and soon to die? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Krispieman
03-29-07, 06:33 AM Hey gang.

Well, my campaign took an unexpected turn yesterday. I'll spare you most of the details but what it comes down to is the following:

The PCs used Speak with Dead to question an NPC who had died in their rooms the night before during a large battle. This led them to a nearby 'secret' corridor (they're in a huge palace atm, the 'secret' corridor is a servants passage). Following the tracks of the NPC led them way below the palace and to a massive obsidian door with Draconic symbols and inscriptions.
Since none of them speak Draconic, but one does speak Ignan they assumed the worst (one PC also heard a fire burning behind the door) and started to prepare themselves.
Now the door is the entrance to a Hellfire Wyrm's lair, by the name of Kaeronix. Kaeronix long ago, in Tiefling form, gained a position within the palace staff as head of day-to-day business. He's been slowly replacing all the servants with members of a cult who worship him.
Obviously the door was trapped via several spells and even mechanical means. Among the spells were Blasphemy and Dictum, which were to trigger if anyone nearby tried to discern via magical means if the door was trapped.
Naturally, my players did this and are now captives.

So now they're all Paralyzed, among other things, for 4 minutes. This led to several questions: Is there any way to defend against being Paralyzed other than Freedom of Movement?
Because I houseruled the Ring of FoM to only give a +40 to grapple checks, is it now underpowered for 40.000gp?
Should the ring still protect against paralysis even if I didn't alter the spell (beyond saying auto escape from grapple is now +40).
Are the Blasphemy, Dictum, Holy Word and Word of Chaos spells ridiculously powerful?
Are there any decent ways to protect yourself against the above mentioned spells, without having to cast Greater Spell Immunity every day?

2 PCs have a ring of FoM and didn't quite understand my changes to it, or simply forgot it (One said I thought it still did everything the spell did, except for the no grapple part). Was I unfair to paralyze them? Or should they simple have taken more precautions to protect themselves. Or simply have let the Rogue of the party go ahead and Search for traps before trying to use magic?

K-man :cool:
rob_douglas
03-29-07, 11:09 AM Let's see - I do think that your nerf of the rings is a big part of the problem here. Yes, it is a little overpriced for the benefit.

Things they could have done to avoid this situation or get out of it:
1) don't all stand within 40ft of each other at the entrance to a door
2) Greater spell immunity - yes you need it every day pretty much. At this level, consider Rings of Spell Storing for all.
3) Freedom of Movement, as you noted
4) Silent Limited Wish, Freedom, Wish, or Miracle
5) Being a Dragon or half-dragon - having the Dragon type
6) SR - of course if the caster level is high enough to paralyze them, it can probably get through their SR
7) Contingency (note you can't dispel this since it is Instantaneous, and not the right thing for a Break Enchantment to dispel, but you could Teleport to safety to wait out the required 1-10 inutes)
8) Astral Projecting in the first place
9) checking for traps using summoned creatures - this is a corollary to number 1 above - don't stand so close!

I can't think of others, but there probably are many. Paralyzed creatures can use purely mental actions, including SLAs. This is the reason I had a cleric Hierophant take Miracle 2/day as an SLA - it is nice to be able to undo these things even if you got hit by them. Epic characters should have at least a couple of purely mental actions.

At this point, they could be toast. You could use it as a teaching experience, and let them die, then resurrecting or True resing them as you see fit, or you could bring in a patron. Or you could even bring in an evil being to make a deal. Maybe he threatens to cast Soul Bind when he kills them unless they agree telepathically to serve/worship him. Consequences worse than death.... :) Maybe an infernal, or archfiend, or the wyrm itself.

ROB
Balthanon
03-29-07, 03:10 PM So now they're all Paralyzed, among other things, for 4 minutes. This led to several questions:[list] Is there any way to defend against being Paralyzed other than Freedom of Movement?
Because I houseruled the Ring of FoM to only give a +40 to grapple checks, is it now underpowered for 40.000gp?
Should the ring still protect against paralysis even if I didn't alter the spell (beyond saying auto escape from grapple is now +40).

If you didn't specify that anything about the spell changed outside of the grappling, then it is unfair to penalize your characters for that oversight. They assumed that they were protected against paralysis and as such would not require anything additional to prevent it. If you didn't tell them that their rings now do nothing aside from give a +40 to grappling (which doesn't really make it Freedom of Movement anymore so much as Freedom from Grappling) then it seems like you're arbitrarily deciding these things on the spot-- which probably isn't the way you want to introduce house rules.

If you want to remove the various immunities that the spell gives entirely, then I would suggest doing it after this encounter. You still tagged several of the players and if they triggered an alarm doing this they should be in enough trouble as it is.
bluemage55
03-29-07, 04:28 PM Epic spells with the ward seed can grant immunity to paralysis as a +6 ad-hoc factor (see eternal freedom).

You can also make an item that makes you immune to paralysis, effectively the equivlent of constant remove paralysis (and priced the same way). This would be consistent with the design behind the periapt of health and periapt of proof against poison.
Krispieman
03-30-07, 07:20 AM Let's see - I do think that your nerf of the rings is a big part of the problem here. Yes, it is a little overpriced for the benefit.
I guess I misinterpreted the general consensus about FoM. My players'll be happy when I tell them that I made a slight mistake and that the ring functions just like the spell, with the only change being grapple, not the rest.

Things they could have done to avoid this situation or get out of it:
1) don't all stand within 40ft of each other at the entrance to a door
2) Greater spell immunity - yes you need it every day pretty much. At this level, consider Rings of Spell Storing for all.
4) Silent Limited Wish, Freedom, Wish, or Miracle
5) Being a Dragon or half-dragon - having the Dragon type
7) Contingency (note you can't dispel this since it is Instantaneous, and not the right thing for a Break Enchantment to dispel, but you could Teleport to safety to wait out the required 1-10 inutes)
8) Astral Projecting in the first place
9) checking for traps using summoned creatures - this is a corollary to number 1 above - don't stand so close!
1) Even though it was a narrow corridor, my players aren't one for safe tactics. Head First Guild all the way ;)
2) They're only level 21 atm and this is their first Epic campaign, so they still need to figure out a lot.
4) The Sorcerer only took Still Spell, no one has Silent.
5) I didn't allow this. Even though we're playing Epic I said they all had to take Core races, for flavor.
7) I actually mentioned this afterwards, but as I said before, my players aren't that practices in thinking ahead. Situations like this one will remedy that in time, I guess.
8) The priest probably hasn't read this spell through yet, and I'm not about to offer it to him ;)
9) Like I said, Safe Tactics are something totally new. I even suggested simply sending the party Rogue ahead (buffed and whatnot) but it never occured to them.
Epic characters should have at least a couple of purely mental actions.
I think they're slowly learning what Epic characters should all have.
At this point, they could be toast. You could use it as a teaching experience, and let them die, then resurrecting or True resing them as you see fit, or you could bring in a patron. Or you could even bring in an evil being to make a deal. Maybe he threatens to cast Soul Bind when he kills them unless they agree telepathically to serve/worship him. Consequences worse than death.... Maybe an infernal, or archfiend, or the wyrm itself.I'm not about to let them die just yet. We're only 8 days into the story (game time) and I spent way to much time on this campaign to have it end now. Though I was already thinking about going the "deal" route, we'll just have to play it out I guess.

If you didn't specify that anything about the spell changed outside of the grappling, then it is unfair to penalize your characters for that oversight. They assumed that they were protected against paralysis and as such would not require anything additional to prevent it. If you didn't tell them that their rings now do nothing aside from give a +40 to grappling (which doesn't really make it Freedom of Movement anymore so much as Freedom from Grappling) then it seems like you're arbitrarily deciding these things on the spot-- which probably isn't the way you want to introduce house rules.Quite true, but I did tell them, at the beginning about the change to FoM and that I might change other things along the way, as we encounter them. I guess the problem came from my side of being overly cautious and their side of not having a memory.
Because both players didn't realize till after we quit the session that they had FoM rings.If you want to remove the various immunities that the spell gives entirely, then I would suggest doing it after this encounter. You still tagged several of the players and if they triggered an alarm doing this they should be in enough trouble as it is.
I've decided to stick with the better plan of letting FoM work as printed (both ring and spell) with the exception of the grapple part.

Epic spells with the ward seed can grant immunity to paralysis as a +6 ad-hoc factor (see eternal freedom).As I've said before, but bears mentioning again: I hate Epic Spellcasting and don't allow it in my campaign. So while this is indeed a valid form of protection, it's not applicable IMC.You can also make an item that makes you immune to paralysis, effectively the equivlent of constant remove paralysis (and priced the same way). This would be consistent with the design behind the periapt of health and periapt of proof against poison.I'll leave it up to my players to come up with this. Or at least state that they'd like something "to protect against paralysis."

As it stands now, I've agreed with my players to replay the encounter from the moment they triggered the traps. With the corrections in FoM both casters will remain fully mobile, though still Dazed, Deafened, Slowed and Weakened. The Monk can also use his Abundant Step so perhaps 3 out of 5 can get away.
At least I now have the time to prepare the encounter, my Evil Monolog and to review what a Hellfire Wyrm could have prepared in the years it spent infiltrating an empire that's totally at peace. I guess it wouldn't just teleport in and blow its cover.

I'll keep you all posted on how it develops, but the next session isn't for 2 weeks, so it'll be a while. In the mean time any other ideas/suggestions/comments are always welcome.

K-man :cool:
Starmage21
03-30-07, 01:49 PM If they dont practice safe tactics and smart thinking, they will quickly die.

You need them alive to express your ideas, so give them an out this time, but if they dont start thinking intelligently make them pay for it.
Krispieman
04-12-07, 06:58 AM As promised, the update on how the fight went:Eadric of Ornwall - Cleric 6/Radiant Servant of Pelor 6/Sacred Exorcist 8/Hierophant 1
Gualtoc'chonamoatl "Gualto" - Monk 2/Druid (PHB2, shifter variant) 15/Warshaper 4
Master Togashi, Hu-Li - Monk 12/Tatooed Monk 7/Thief-Acrobat 2
Jess Blacklock - Fighter 2/ Ranger 1/ Rogue 10/ Nightsong Enfocer 8 (I think, still don't have his sheet):waits:
Marbor - Sorcerer 6/War Weaver 5/Sacred Exorcist 10 (pre-initiative) The traps are triggered, causing everyone to become Dazed. Eadric & Marbor both have a ring of FoM so they aren't Paralyzed like the others. Kaeronix Teleports in, shaped like a Paeliryon.
(Round 1) PCs do nothing (dazed wears off). Kaeronix uses his Staff of Enchantment to Mass Suggest that the PCs serve him (her). Eadric, Jess, and Marbor fail the save.
(Round 2) Kaeronix changes shape into an Erinyes, to fit more easily in the small corridor. Eadric casts FoM on Gualto, who in turn casts FoM on Hu-Li. Marbor delays and Jess remains Paralyzed for the rest of the combat.
(Round 3) As the monks move into attack position, Kaeronix asks his newfound 'followers' to defend him.
(Round 4) Both monks try to attack Kaeronix, but do little to no damage. Kaeronix himself Teleports to a square adjacent to Jess and tells his 'followers' to subdue the agressors.
(Round 5) While Eadric & Marbor try to subdue Gualto & Hu-Li, Kaeronix takes out a scroll of Teleport and Teleports away with Jess.
(Rounds 6-8) Through various Dispels (Paralyzing Gualto again), Walls of Force (seperating Hu-li from the others) Stone Shape (creating extra room) and use of the Snap out of It! teamwork benefit, everyone once again knows who the enemy is by the time Kaeronix Teleports back in.
(Rounds 9+10) Casting Greater Dispel Magic on Eadric's Ring of FoM, Kaeronix now has 2 Paralyzed opponents, and by using his Staff of Enchantment to cast a Mind Fog he prepares to subdue the others. Luckily for the PCs Marbor moves into a position where he can see everyone and Teleports them to safety.So now only Jess is captured, and the others are preparing to rescue him/go for round 2 vs. Kaeronix (who they still don't have any idea of what exactly he is).
Another question arose, however: If the target of a Discern Location is within a Anti-magic Field do you recieve any information? I thought they wouldn't, but perhaps I'm mistaken.
Also, I'd like to know what would happen if a Medium size opponent you're grappling with, changes shape to become Large (or larger). I assume you're still grappling, but now your target has an advantage because of size. Would anything else happen?

As always, thanks for any imput.
K-man :cool:
rob_douglas
04-12-07, 02:54 PM Discern Location has two contradictory issues. It has a Target, so you shouldn't be able to target them if they are in an AMF. However, it also says that nothing short of divine intervention can prevent it - which implies that AMF won't work. So you will have to decide and be consistent. I prefer to make it work, because AMFs then make good hiding places for stuff. I also don't allow it to work on artifacts, or deific (unique) beings, like gods, demon lords, etc. Anything with DvR 0 or higher, including Abominations.

In the case of the Shapechange, yes, you are still grappling with the new grapple bonus.

ROB

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Krispieman 03-29-07, 06:33 AM	Hey gang. Well, my campaign took an unexpected turn yesterday. I'll spare you most of the details but what it comes down to is the following: The PCs used Speak with Dead to question an NPC who had died in their rooms the night before during a large battle. This led them to a nearby 'secret' corridor (they're in a huge palace atm, the 'secret' corridor is a servants passage). Following the tracks of the NPC led them way below the palace and to a massive obsidian door with Draconic symbols and inscriptions. Since none of them speak Draconic, but one does speak Ignan they assumed the worst (one PC also heard a fire burning behind the door) and started to prepare themselves. Now the door is the entrance to a Hellfire Wyrm's lair, by the name of Kaeronix. Kaeronix long ago, in Tiefling form, gained a position within the palace staff as head of day-to-day business. He's been slowly replacing all the servants with members of a cult who worship him. Obviously the door was trapped via several spells and even mechanical means. Among the spells were Blasphemy and Dictum, which were to trigger if anyone nearby tried to discern via magical means if the door was trapped. Naturally, my players did this and are now captives. So now they're all Paralyzed, among other things, for 4 minutes. This led to several questions: Is there any way to defend against being Paralyzed other than Freedom of Movement? Because I houseruled the Ring of FoM to only give a +40 to grapple checks, is it now underpowered for 40.000gp? Should the ring still protect against paralysis even if I didn't alter the spell (beyond saying auto escape from grapple is now +40). Are the Blasphemy, Dictum, Holy Word and Word of Chaos spells ridiculously powerful? Are there any decent ways to protect yourself against the above mentioned spells, without having to cast Greater Spell Immunity every day? 2 PCs have a ring of FoM and didn't quite understand my changes to it, or simply forgot it (One said I thought it still did everything the spell did, except for the no grapple part). Was I unfair to paralyze them? Or should they simple have taken more precautions to protect themselves. Or simply have let the Rogue of the party go ahead and Search for traps before trying to use magic? K-man :cool:
rob_douglas 03-29-07, 11:09 AM	Let's see - I do think that your nerf of the rings is a big part of the problem here. Yes, it is a little overpriced for the benefit. Things they could have done to avoid this situation or get out of it: 1) don't all stand within 40ft of each other at the entrance to a door 2) Greater spell immunity - yes you need it every day pretty much. At this level, consider Rings of Spell Storing for all. 3) Freedom of Movement, as you noted 4) Silent Limited Wish, Freedom, Wish, or Miracle 5) Being a Dragon or half-dragon - having the Dragon type 6) SR - of course if the caster level is high enough to paralyze them, it can probably get through their SR 7) Contingency (note you can't dispel this since it is Instantaneous, and not the right thing for a Break Enchantment to dispel, but you could Teleport to safety to wait out the required 1-10 inutes) 8) Astral Projecting in the first place 9) checking for traps using summoned creatures - this is a corollary to number 1 above - don't stand so close! I can't think of others, but there probably are many. Paralyzed creatures can use purely mental actions, including SLAs. This is the reason I had a cleric Hierophant take Miracle 2/day as an SLA - it is nice to be able to undo these things even if you got hit by them. Epic characters should have at least a couple of purely mental actions. At this point, they could be toast. You could use it as a teaching experience, and let them die, then resurrecting or True resing them as you see fit, or you could bring in a patron. Or you could even bring in an evil being to make a deal. Maybe he threatens to cast Soul Bind when he kills them unless they agree telepathically to serve/worship him. Consequences worse than death.... :) Maybe an infernal, or archfiend, or the wyrm itself. ROB
Balthanon 03-29-07, 03:10 PM	So now they're all Paralyzed, among other things, for 4 minutes. This led to several questions:[list] Is there any way to defend against being Paralyzed other than Freedom of Movement? Because I houseruled the Ring of FoM to only give a +40 to grapple checks, is it now underpowered for 40.000gp? Should the ring still protect against paralysis even if I didn't alter the spell (beyond saying auto escape from grapple is now +40). If you didn't specify that anything about the spell changed outside of the grappling, then it is unfair to penalize your characters for that oversight. They assumed that they were protected against paralysis and as such would not require anything additional to prevent it. If you didn't tell them that their rings now do nothing aside from give a +40 to grappling (which doesn't really make it Freedom of Movement anymore so much as Freedom from Grappling) then it seems like you're arbitrarily deciding these things on the spot-- which probably isn't the way you want to introduce house rules. If you want to remove the various immunities that the spell gives entirely, then I would suggest doing it after this encounter. You still tagged several of the players and if they triggered an alarm doing this they should be in enough trouble as it is.
bluemage55 03-29-07, 04:28 PM	Epic spells with the ward seed can grant immunity to paralysis as a +6 ad-hoc factor (see eternal freedom). You can also make an item that makes you immune to paralysis, effectively the equivlent of constant remove paralysis (and priced the same way). This would be consistent with the design behind the periapt of health and periapt of proof against poison.
Krispieman 03-30-07, 07:20 AM	Let's see - I do think that your nerf of the rings is a big part of the problem here. Yes, it is a little overpriced for the benefit. I guess I misinterpreted the general consensus about FoM. My players'll be happy when I tell them that I made a slight mistake and that the ring functions just like the spell, with the only change being grapple, not the rest. Things they could have done to avoid this situation or get out of it: 1) don't all stand within 40ft of each other at the entrance to a door 2) Greater spell immunity - yes you need it every day pretty much. At this level, consider Rings of Spell Storing for all. 4) Silent Limited Wish, Freedom, Wish, or Miracle 5) Being a Dragon or half-dragon - having the Dragon type 7) Contingency (note you can't dispel this since it is Instantaneous, and not the right thing for a Break Enchantment to dispel, but you could Teleport to safety to wait out the required 1-10 inutes) 8) Astral Projecting in the first place 9) checking for traps using summoned creatures - this is a corollary to number 1 above - don't stand so close! 1) Even though it was a narrow corridor, my players aren't one for safe tactics. Head First Guild all the way ;) 2) They're only level 21 atm and this is their first Epic campaign, so they still need to figure out a lot. 4) The Sorcerer only took Still Spell, no one has Silent. 5) I didn't allow this. Even though we're playing Epic I said they all had to take Core races, for flavor. 7) I actually mentioned this afterwards, but as I said before, my players aren't that practices in thinking ahead. Situations like this one will remedy that in time, I guess. 8) The priest probably hasn't read this spell through yet, and I'm not about to offer it to him ;) 9) Like I said, Safe Tactics are something totally new. I even suggested simply sending the party Rogue ahead (buffed and whatnot) but it never occured to them. Epic characters should have at least a couple of purely mental actions. I think they're slowly learning what Epic characters should all have. At this point, they could be toast. You could use it as a teaching experience, and let them die, then resurrecting or True resing them as you see fit, or you could bring in a patron. Or you could even bring in an evil being to make a deal. Maybe he threatens to cast Soul Bind when he kills them unless they agree telepathically to serve/worship him. Consequences worse than death.... Maybe an infernal, or archfiend, or the wyrm itself.I'm not about to let them die just yet. We're only 8 days into the story (game time) and I spent way to much time on this campaign to have it end now. Though I was already thinking about going the "deal" route, we'll just have to play it out I guess. If you didn't specify that anything about the spell changed outside of the grappling, then it is unfair to penalize your characters for that oversight. They assumed that they were protected against paralysis and as such would not require anything additional to prevent it. If you didn't tell them that their rings now do nothing aside from give a +40 to grappling (which doesn't really make it Freedom of Movement anymore so much as Freedom from Grappling) then it seems like you're arbitrarily deciding these things on the spot-- which probably isn't the way you want to introduce house rules.Quite true, but I did tell them, at the beginning about the change to FoM and that I might change other things along the way, as we encounter them. I guess the problem came from my side of being overly cautious and their side of not having a memory. Because both players didn't realize till after we quit the session that they had FoM rings.If you want to remove the various immunities that the spell gives entirely, then I would suggest doing it after this encounter. You still tagged several of the players and if they triggered an alarm doing this they should be in enough trouble as it is. I've decided to stick with the better plan of letting FoM work as printed (both ring and spell) with the exception of the grapple part. Epic spells with the ward seed can grant immunity to paralysis as a +6 ad-hoc factor (see eternal freedom).As I've said before, but bears mentioning again: I hate Epic Spellcasting and don't allow it in my campaign. So while this is indeed a valid form of protection, it's not applicable IMC.You can also make an item that makes you immune to paralysis, effectively the equivlent of constant remove paralysis (and priced the same way). This would be consistent with the design behind the periapt of health and periapt of proof against poison.I'll leave it up to my players to come up with this. Or at least state that they'd like something "to protect against paralysis." As it stands now, I've agreed with my players to replay the encounter from the moment they triggered the traps. With the corrections in FoM both casters will remain fully mobile, though still Dazed, Deafened, Slowed and Weakened. The Monk can also use his Abundant Step so perhaps 3 out of 5 can get away. At least I now have the time to prepare the encounter, my Evil Monolog and to review what a Hellfire Wyrm could have prepared in the years it spent infiltrating an empire that's totally at peace. I guess it wouldn't just teleport in and blow its cover. I'll keep you all posted on how it develops, but the next session isn't for 2 weeks, so it'll be a while. In the mean time any other ideas/suggestions/comments are always welcome. K-man :cool:
Starmage21 03-30-07, 01:49 PM	If they dont practice safe tactics and smart thinking, they will quickly die. You need them alive to express your ideas, so give them an out this time, but if they dont start thinking intelligently make them pay for it.
Krispieman 04-12-07, 06:58 AM	As promised, the update on how the fight went:Eadric of Ornwall - Cleric 6/Radiant Servant of Pelor 6/Sacred Exorcist 8/Hierophant 1 Gualtoc'chonamoatl "Gualto" - Monk 2/Druid (PHB2, shifter variant) 15/Warshaper 4 Master Togashi, Hu-Li - Monk 12/Tatooed Monk 7/Thief-Acrobat 2 Jess Blacklock - Fighter 2/ Ranger 1/ Rogue 10/ Nightsong Enfocer 8 (I think, still don't have his sheet):waits: Marbor - Sorcerer 6/War Weaver 5/Sacred Exorcist 10 (pre-initiative) The traps are triggered, causing everyone to become Dazed. Eadric & Marbor both have a ring of FoM so they aren't Paralyzed like the others. Kaeronix Teleports in, shaped like a Paeliryon. (Round 1) PCs do nothing (dazed wears off). Kaeronix uses his Staff of Enchantment to Mass Suggest that the PCs serve him (her). Eadric, Jess, and Marbor fail the save. (Round 2) Kaeronix changes shape into an Erinyes, to fit more easily in the small corridor. Eadric casts FoM on Gualto, who in turn casts FoM on Hu-Li. Marbor delays and Jess remains Paralyzed for the rest of the combat. (Round 3) As the monks move into attack position, Kaeronix asks his newfound 'followers' to defend him. (Round 4) Both monks try to attack Kaeronix, but do little to no damage. Kaeronix himself Teleports to a square adjacent to Jess and tells his 'followers' to subdue the agressors. (Round 5) While Eadric & Marbor try to subdue Gualto & Hu-Li, Kaeronix takes out a scroll of Teleport and Teleports away with Jess. (Rounds 6-8) Through various Dispels (Paralyzing Gualto again), Walls of Force (seperating Hu-li from the others) Stone Shape (creating extra room) and use of the Snap out of It! teamwork benefit, everyone once again knows who the enemy is by the time Kaeronix Teleports back in. (Rounds 9+10) Casting Greater Dispel Magic on Eadric's Ring of FoM, Kaeronix now has 2 Paralyzed opponents, and by using his Staff of Enchantment to cast a Mind Fog he prepares to subdue the others. Luckily for the PCs Marbor moves into a position where he can see everyone and Teleports them to safety.So now only Jess is captured, and the others are preparing to rescue him/go for round 2 vs. Kaeronix (who they still don't have any idea of what exactly he is). Another question arose, however: If the target of a Discern Location is within a Anti-magic Field do you recieve any information? I thought they wouldn't, but perhaps I'm mistaken. Also, I'd like to know what would happen if a Medium size opponent you're grappling with, changes shape to become Large (or larger). I assume you're still grappling, but now your target has an advantage because of size. Would anything else happen? As always, thanks for any imput. K-man :cool:
rob_douglas 04-12-07, 02:54 PM	Discern Location has two contradictory issues. It has a Target, so you shouldn't be able to target them if they are in an AMF. However, it also says that nothing short of divine intervention can prevent it - which implies that AMF won't work. So you will have to decide and be consistent. I prefer to make it work, because AMFs then make good hiding places for stuff. I also don't allow it to work on artifacts, or deific (unique) beings, like gods, demon lords, etc. Anything with DvR 0 or higher, including Abominations. In the case of the Shapechange, yes, you are still grappling with the new grapple bonus. ROB