Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chaotis 02-23-07, 09:22 PM	I was reading about epic spells after getting Sandstorm(In two words: Global Warming), and because of my fix on Mind Flayers, I suddenly thought about the topic above. This topic is for a contest, for the best way to use the right combination of factors and seeds to destroy the sun itself. I will judge for creativity(You summoned a WHAT to destroy it:shocked: ?), Psicraft DC(No one wants a nigh-impossible DC, but no one wants absurd exp or casting time either:P), and your description of the spell(I won't put an example of good, but "It destroys the sun" is BAD). You may only use the core rulebooks and the ELP, because that is all you should need anyway. Edit: Oh, and if you can explain how the Mind Flayers could actually SURVIVE this, that would be nice too :P And... if anyone's reading this, could you tell me that you're entering first, I like the assurance that someone is actually reading and responding to this.
Pitiless_Interfector 02-24-07, 12:36 AM	Have you considered cross-posting your challenge to the psionics forum? I've noticed that nobody really reads anything anybody posts on this forum anymore; most of the people who like Epic enough to read this forum are even older than their characters are. (What, there's no bearded smiley on this site? Talk about poor design). Not to be a killjoy or anything, but there are 528 threads and 12,615 posts on the Epic forum, while the psionics forum has 1,559 threads with 27,330 posts. Might have better luck that way, unless there are rules in the COC about cross-posting that I'm not aware of. Here's to a vibrant competition; if I can find my d@mned supplements I'll be sure to supply an entry, too! Veni, Vidi, Eius Cerebrum Consumpsi. I came. I saw. I ate his brain. AD MAIORUM CTHULHI GLORIAM! :coolcthul
thompsja 02-24-07, 12:48 AM	This topic is for a contest, for the best way to use the right combination of factors and seeds to destroy the sun itself. Ok, I'm game. (Get's out ELH) Since this is a fantasy setting, I don't want to use the Sun's actual size - I'll settle for the size of the moon, since they're about the same size. You've seen solar eclipses, right? :D According to the site I just googled, the moon's radius is 1738 km. Since D&D uses English units, and the sane world uses metric, we have to convert into feet. There are 3281 (about) feet per km. So, we have to have a radius of area of effect 5,702,378 feet, and an identical range. (We're standing on the sun, no problem with our Ring of Universal Elemental Immunity). We need 474 enhancements of range to reach the center, and 285,117 enhancements of a 20'ft radius. Now, assuming that we can get to close up range, and we have plenty of time. Obliterate the Sun: (seed: Destroy), DC 29+10 (target to area) + 2 (change to 20' radius) + 1,140,468 (increase volume of area of effect ) + 948 (increase range) = DC 1,141,457 before adjustments. I'll let you figure out the GP cost and XP to create this. Again, I used the stats for the Moon for all this - Our sun would have (very roughly) 500 times the DC of the Moon.
Chaotis 02-24-07, 10:37 AM	I was about to faint before I read: Before adjustments. If you're going to use a ritual for it, let's assume that 100 Mind Flayers can use a 9th level psionic ability where this is being cast, and the Elder Brain is the one casting. Just so no one overdoes the ritual. Casting time can be as much as you please, Mind Flayers don't exactly get many interruptions underground:P . Edit: Just thought of my own way: Cast Ice Age on the sun. I believe it says it changes the climate to "One step lower, or to cold, whichever is colder, so... that would freeze part of the sun, increase the range a little and BAM, you have a spell that makes the sun collapse from being partially frozen.
Chaotis 02-24-07, 11:16 AM	There, I posted it in the Psionics forum. Maybe there'll be a little more response to it there.
Starmage21 02-24-07, 11:25 AM	I was reading about epic spells after getting Sandstorm(In two words: Global Warming), and because of my fix on Mind Flayers, I suddenly thought about the topic above. This topic is for a contest, for the best way to use the right combination of factors and seeds to destroy the sun itself. I will judge for creativity(You summoned a WHAT to destroy it:shocked: ?), Psicraft DC(No one wants a nigh-impossible DC, but no one wants absurd exp or casting time either:P), and your description of the spell(I won't put an example of good, but "It destroys the sun" is BAD). You may only use the core rulebooks and the ELP, because that is all you should need anyway. Edit: Oh, and if you can explain how the Mind Flayers could actually SURVIVE this, that would be nice too :P And... if anyone's reading this, could you tell me that you're entering first, I like the assurance that someone is actually reading and responding to this. The Elder Brain has the ability to command all of the Illithid, and so the epic spell could be created as a large ritual.
obrysii 02-24-07, 12:44 PM	Edit: Just thought of my own way: Cast Ice Age on the moon. I believe it says it changes the climate to "One step lower, or to cold, whichever is colder, so... that would freeze part of the sun, increase the range a little and BAM, you have a spell that makes the sun collapse from being partially frozen. Wait. How would freezing the moon freeze part of the sun?
Loren Pechtel 02-24-07, 01:18 PM	Go out into space, falling towards the sun. (*NOT* in orbit, falling!). Conjure up a small black hole. (It will fit within the 20 cubic feet of the base spell.) This is a suicide mission, you'll need someone to true res you after casting it. It's not backlash, though, you aren't going to lose a level. The hole will keep falling through the sun eating part of it. It will get heavier and heavier and wobble less and less. Eventually it will settle in and eat the whole star. A secondary effect is it's going to sterilize the surface of the planet--there's going to be a *LOT* of radiation. The mind flayers down in their caves will be ok, though.
Chaotis 02-26-07, 06:56 PM	Go out into space, falling towards the sun. (*NOT* in orbit, falling!). Conjure up a small black hole. (It will fit within the 20 cubic feet of the base spell.) This is a suicide mission, you'll need someone to true res you after casting it. It's not backlash, though, you aren't going to lose a level. The hole will keep falling through the sun eating part of it. It will get heavier and heavier and wobble less and less. Eventually it will settle in and eat the whole star. A secondary effect is it's going to sterilize the surface of the planet--there's going to be a *LOT* of radiation. The mind flayers down in their caves will be ok, though. One problem. You made no epic power, and unless you actually show the statistics for making a small black hole with an epic power, there's nothing to be judged here. And when I said moon, I meant sun. *edits*
Nilbog 02-26-07, 06:58 PM	Going off from the Ice Age suggestion above, what about casting a suped-up version of Dire Winter on a chunk of adamantium (or something that won't melt/vaporize) and pushing it into the sun. (Of course, you'd need spells to teleport near the sun and to survive vacuum, heat, and radiation, and to put these spells on your ritual participants, but at uber-epic that should be easy.) This is a pretty big ritual, but you're having a whole species cast the spell. Basically, every mind-flayer spellcaster on the planet is involved. Super Dire Winter Spellcraft DC: 169 (before mitigation: 28069) Components: V, S, XP, Ritual Casting Time: 1 day 10 min Range: 300 ft. Area: 50000-ft.-radius Duration: 20 hrs. Saving Throw: None SR: Yes To Develop: Seed: energy (DC 19). Factors: increase radius by 5000 times (+28000 DC). Mitigating factors: burn 10,000 XP (-100 DC), ritual (20 epic casters) (-380 DC), ritual (50 8th-level slots) (-750 DC), ritual (400 5th-level slots) (-3600 DC), ritual (2000 3rd-level slots) (-10000 DC), ritual (13000 1st-level slots) (-13000 DC), casting time increase to 1 day (-20 DC). Otherwise, as dire winter. So, you freeze a chunk of the inside of the sun about 20 miles across. If this fantasy sun is Moon-sized (as thompsja suggested) the resulting collapse should make it blow up. Even a real-world star would be seriously screwed up (depending on how deep inside the object with the spell got); while it might not supernova, you'd probably get a nova-scale solar flare at the very least.
Chaotis 02-26-07, 07:08 PM	Going off from the Ice Age suggestion above, what about casting a suped-up version of Dire Winter on a chunk of adamantium (or something that won't melt/vaporize) and pushing it into the sun. (Of course, you'd need spells to teleport near the sun and to survive vacuum, heat, and radiation, and to put these spells on your ritual participants, but at uber-epic that should be easy.) This is a pretty big ritual, but you're having a whole species cast the spell. Basically, every mind-flayer spellcaster on the planet is involved. Super Dire Winter Spellcraft DC: 169 (before mitigation: 28069) Components: V, S, XP, Ritual Casting Time: 1 day 10 min Range: 300 ft. Area: 50000-ft.-radius Duration: 20 hrs. Saving Throw: None SR: Yes To Develop: Seed: energy (DC 19). Factors: increase radius by 5000 times (+28000 DC). Mitigating factors: burn 10,000 XP (-100 DC), ritual (20 epic casters) (-380 DC), ritual (50 8th-level slots) (-750 DC), ritual (400 5th-level slots) (-3600 DC), ritual (2000 3rd-level slots) (-10000 DC), ritual (13000 1st-level slots) (-13000 DC), casting time increase to 1 day (-20 DC). Otherwise, as dire winter. So, you freeze a chunk of the inside of the sun about 20 miles across. If this fantasy sun is Moon-sized (as thompsja suggested) the resulting collapse should make it blow up. Even a real-world star would be seriously screwed up (depending on how deep inside the object with the spell got); while it might not supernova, you'd probably get a nova-scale solar flare at the very least. Creativity: Nice use of a pre-existing spell, this sounds like something Riverine might be useful for from what I've heard of it(even though I STILL don't know what book it's in!). DC: Yeah... it's high, but not TOO high. Description: ... meh. Other: Try making a special "Nailed to the Sky" to fling the chunk of metal at the sun, it saves all the protection spells. We're assuming the 20 epics are Elder Brains, correct? One other thing: The sun has SR?
Loren Pechtel 02-27-07, 04:24 PM	One problem. You made no epic power, and unless you actually show the statistics for making a small black hole with an epic power, there's nothing to be judged here. And when I said moon, I meant sun. *edits* I didn't work the DC as I didn't have the book in front of me. There's a seed that does it directly, IIRC somewhere in the 20's. Simply conjure a black hole a couple of feet across. It's already got a permanent duration.
bluemage55 02-27-07, 04:49 PM	Simply conjure a black hole a couple of feet across. It's already got a permanent duration. A DM that allows you to conjure black holes is out of their mind.
anton1066 02-28-07, 06:27 PM	A character who conjures a black hole is out of their mind.
BelRex 02-28-07, 07:27 PM	Isn't that already a PrC, the Entropomancer? Do they not create minature black holes?
lavekkia 03-02-07, 01:22 PM	On the subject of epic powers elder brains also created a ritual that transported them and hundred of thousand of illithids back in time; this is hinted in Lords Of Madness as well
Alder_Fiter_Galaz 03-02-07, 05:24 PM	I remember that in the Spelljammer (2nd edition setting) there´s a planet full of illithids called Falx in a sphere (something akin to a plane i think) who a tarrasque prowls in the surface. Maybe in this plane the illithids actually destroy the sun of the planet and starts to going elsewere in search for food. Also i remember the paragon illithids, and the description of the elder brains, it is a big (maybe titanic is near) pool of the brains of dead ancient illithids, and every dead illithid brain able is poured onto the gooey pool, too. So if the paragon illithids are already epic, obiously more the elder brains. I do not know the reason the elder brain not take over the ultraverse already. Do anybody known why they want to destroy the sun?. They maybe get out of food supply. Or simply want to explore to get more tasty brains?
bluemage55 03-02-07, 06:21 PM	Also i remember the paragon illithids, and the description of the elder brains, it is a big (maybe titanic is near) pool of the brains of dead ancient illithids, and every dead illithid brain able is poured onto the gooey pool, too. So if the paragon illithids are already epic, obiously more the elder brains. Elder brains have been statted out. A baseline (that is, with no additional advancement, classes, or templates) elder brain is CR 25. I do not know the reason the elder brain not take over the ultraverse already. Do anybody known why they want to destroy the sun?. They maybe get out of food supply. Or simply want to explore to get more tasty brains? They have an aversion to sunlight. You need to get your terms straight. "Ultraverse" is not a recognizable term. If you are asking why they have not taken over the multiverse, the reason is that the gods live on the outer planes and the elemental lords live on the inner planes, and the illithids are no threat to them. If you are asking why they have not taken over the Prime Material, then the answer is that there are many powerful denizens that would stop them. There is also the fact that the illithid empire is scattered over many worlds, and the Imperial Elven Navy, the Scro, and other powers still hold superiority in many regions of space.
Phantom Llama 03-04-07, 07:52 AM	People are rather underestimating the Sun here. The thing is a gravitationally bound continuous nuclear fireball more than a million kilometers across. A 20-mile sphere of ice appearing inside it is going to do nothing to something that could swallow every planet in the solar system without fear. The most workable idea in the thread so far is conjuring a black hole a few feet across. The problem with that is that a black hole so small will hawking radiate and explode in short order, so it may not survive long enough (I don't have the precise numbers on hand, so this may not be a problem). Better is to conjure a singularity (of any mass, since its size doesn't change) of the needed mass, since the event horizon is merely a byproduct of the singularity itself.
Loren Pechtel 03-04-07, 11:07 AM	People are rather underestimating the Sun here. The thing is a gravitationally bound continuous nuclear fireball more than a million kilometers across. A 20-mile sphere of ice appearing inside it is going to do nothing to something that could swallow every planet in the solar system without fear. The most workable idea in the thread so far is conjuring a black hole a few feet across. The problem with that is that a black hole so small will hawking radiate and explode in short order, so it may not survive long enough (I don't have the precise numbers on hand, so this may not be a problem). Better is to conjure a singularity (of any mass, since its size doesn't change) of the needed mass, since the event horizon is merely a byproduct of the singularity itself. I was figuring you would be size-limited by the event horizon as the actual spot of mass has no size at all. The size limit has to apply to something with a size. And one a few feet across is not going to go boom due to hawking radiation. The ones that do that are too small to see with a microscope.
ElIsRa 03-04-07, 06:19 PM	Have you considered cross-posting your challenge to the psionics forum? I've noticed that nobody really reads anything anybody posts on this forum anymore; most of the people who like Epic enough to read this forum are even older than their characters are. (What, there's no bearded smiley on this site? Talk about poor design). Not to be a killjoy or anything, but there are 528 threads and 12,615 posts on the Epic forum, while the psionics forum has 1,559 threads with 27,330 posts. Might have better luck that way, unless there are rules in the COC about cross-posting that I'm not aware of. Here's to a vibrant competition; if I can find my d@mned supplements I'll be sure to supply an entry, too! In all fairness, half of the posts on the Psionics forum are just poeple trying to prove that psionics is or isn't broken. As for the challenge, there is a simple solution. Create something that eats star matter and reproduces quickly. Then teleport it to the Sun. Origin of Species: Solar Flee (ritual) Conhuration( Creation, Healing ) Spellcraft DC: 15 Components: V, S, DF, Ritual Casting Time: 100 days, 8 hours, 10 mins. Range 0ft. Effect: One constructed creature up to medium size (20 cu ft) Duration: Permanent Save Throw: None Spell Resistence: No To Develop: 135,000gp; 3 days; 5400 XP. Seeds: conjure( DC 21 ), life( DC 27 ), Fortify( DC 17 ). Factors: perminate( X5 DC ). Mitigating Factors: increased casting time by 10 mins( -20 DC ), increase casting time by 100 days( -200 DC ), ten additional casters contributing 5th level spell slots( -90 DC ). Creates one a Solar Flee. Solar Flee ------------- Fine Vermin ( Fire ) Hit Dice: 1/4 d8 ( 1hp ) Initiative: +4( Dex ) Speed: 5ft AC: 22( +8 size, +4 Dex ) Attacks: None Damage: N/A Face/Reach: 0ft by 0ft/0ft Special Attack: Metabolize Special Qualities: Vermin, Fire subtype, Multiplicity Saves: Fort +0, Ref +4, Will -2 Abilities: Str 1, Dex 18, Con 10, Int -, Wis 6, Cha 4 Skills: Jump +15 ---------------- Climate/Terrain: Any Organization: solitary, swarm( 100+ ) Challenge Rating: 0 Treasure: None Alignment: Always True Neutural Advancement: None Specificly developed to consume the Sun, Solar Flees multiply quickly when they have access to plasma and/or Hydrogen. Combat: These little creatures have little interest in combat, even when threatened. They metabolize creatures of the Fire, Air, or Water subtype, but otherwise are harmless. Their height does not restrict their jump checks. Metabolize: A Solar Fee may make an attack using its Dex bonus as a full round action. On a secessful hit this attack does one point of damage regaurdless of Damage Reduction. This damage is always considered Physical damage, even agenst creatures with regeneration. This attack can only effect creatures of the Fire, Water, or Air subtypes. Multipicity: Whenever a Solar Flee secessfully deals 1 or more points of damage it spawns a number of other Solar Flees equal to the amount of damage delt. Solar Flees have a racial bonus of +20 on jump checks. Edit: Admittedly, it will take a very long time for the little guys to get the job done, probably a generation ( of Illithid ) or so, but all and all, probably the most cost effective way ( I mean, who can't spare ten mid-level casters for a hunderd days or so? ) Ad Edit: I am considering the Sun as a massive creature with the Fire subtype.
Loren Pechtel 03-05-07, 12:52 PM	The fleas get crushed by the gravity. Since there's no transmutation involved the dead fleas turn back into starstuff. There's going to be a *HUGE* bang when the star relights.
Phantom Llama 03-05-07, 05:36 PM	And one a few feet across is not going to go boom due to hawking radiation. The ones that do that are too small to see with a microscope. I stand corrected - I can never remember the scale at which it becomes significant.
rob_douglas 03-06-07, 02:24 PM	The biggest problem I have with some of the ideas on this thread is that it assumes laws of physics not in evidence. Can a black hole exist in DND? Depends on the DM. Is the Sun really big? Depends on the DM. Maybe the earth is flat, the sun is a small ball on the back of a god's chariot, and the moon is the ring on the hand of night, when she agreed to marry that god. In that case, solar flees (I like that - CREATIVE! ;) ) black holes, and Dire winter won't do it. Instead of a blackhole, we do have such things as spheres of annihilation. You could hypothesize making one big enough, but it is an artifact, so that again puts it in the DMs hands. Besides, I liked the Eclipse spell in the ELH - it just created a disk of darkness to stop the light - same basic effect if you make a ring like that. Maybe a Dyson sphere - if the world is actually round... At some point you have to spend some resources discovering how big these things are, and what the rules are with interacting with them. ROB
Valefor Arkshan 03-06-07, 05:43 PM	Origin of Species: Solar Flee (ritual) Conhuration( Creation, Healing ) Spellcraft DC: 15 Components: V, S, DF, Ritual Casting Time: 100 days, 8 hours, 10 mins. Range 0ft. Effect: One constructed creature up to medium size (20 cu ft) Duration: Permanent Save Throw: None Spell Resistence: No To Develop: 135,000gp; 3 days; 5400 XP. Seeds: conjure( DC 21 ), life( DC 27 ), Fortify( DC 17 ). Factors: perminate( X5 DC ). Mitigating Factors: increased casting time by 10 mins( -20 DC ), increase casting time by 100 days( -200 DC ), ten additional casters contributing 5th level spell slots( -90 DC ). Creates one a Solar Flee. Solar Flee ------------- Fine Vermin ( Fire ) Hit Dice: 1/4 d8 ( 1hp ) Initiative: +4( Dex ) Speed: 5ft AC: 22( +8 size, +4 Dex ) Attacks: None Damage: N/A Face/Reach: 0ft by 0ft/0ft Special Attack: Metabolize Special Qualities: Vermin, Fire subtype, Multiplicity Saves: Fort +0, Ref +4, Will -2 Abilities: Str 1, Dex 18, Con 10, Int -, Wis 6, Cha 4 Skills: Jump +15 ---------------- Climate/Terrain: Any Organization: solitary, swarm( 100+ ) Challenge Rating: 0 Treasure: None Alignment: Always True Neutural Advancement: None Specificly developed to consume the Sun, Solar Flees multiply quickly when they have access to plasma and/or Hydrogen. Combat: These little creatures have little interest in combat, even when threatened. They metabolize creatures of the Fire, Air, or Water subtype, but otherwise are harmless. Their height does not restrict their jump checks. Metabolize: A Solar Fee may make an attack using its Dex bonus as a full round action. On a secessful hit this attack does one point of damage regaurdless of Damage Reduction. This damage is always considered Physical damage, even agenst creatures with regeneration. This attack can only effect creatures of the Fire, Water, or Air subtypes. Multipicity: Whenever a Solar Flee secessfully deals 1 or more points of damage it spawns a number of other Solar Flees equal to the amount of damage delt. Solar Flees have a racial bonus of +20 on jump checks. While this spell may not destroy the sun due to the fact that the crushing graity would kill it first, give it resistance to fire 10. Then, take over all the elemental planes excluding the elemental earth plane. I'm sure that ha'ing the Ifritee Sultan as a slave would be an enormus sign of planar power. :D Oh, and give it an int of 1, so said mindflayers can dominate the entire race of Solar Fleas. Thus 3 of 4 elemental planes. Without trying. Summon elementals until you have a sufficient army... and then poof. Instant Win button.
ElIsRa 03-06-07, 08:15 PM	While this spell may not destroy the sun due to the fact that the crushing graity would kill it first, give it resistance to fire 10. Then, take over all the elemental planes excluding the elemental earth plane. I'm sure that ha'ing the Ifritee Sultan as a slave would be an enormus sign of planar power. :D Oh, and give it an int of 1, so said mindflayers can dominate the entire race of Solar Fleas. Thus 3 of 4 elemental planes. Without trying. Summon elementals until you have a sufficient army... and then poof. Instant Win button. Or they could just create a spell/power that dominates vermin. Also, why would it need fire resistence? It is already a fire subtype, thus has immunity to fire. As for the gravity thing, does D&D even take into account the force of gravity and the type of damage it could inflict? If so, it wouldn't be hard to concieve of adding a "Gravity Immunity" of sorts, which wouldn't alter the spell/psi craft check that much (just add a some more mitigating factors).
Valefor Arkshan 03-06-07, 11:58 PM	Oh! Yeah, I forgot that minor detail ^_^" fire subtype = immune to fire. heh.
Loren Pechtel 03-07-07, 12:42 AM	Even if you make it gravity immune it's going to die of the pressure. If the fires go out the star shrinks to a white dwarf. Most of it's matter is compressed to electron degeneracy--*ALL* molecular structures are destroyed. Not to mention the fact that the temperature and pressure is enough to make the flea's own body go up in a reasonable approximation of an h-bomb. (And I mean fusion, not merely a big bang.) You don't even need to be deep in the star for this kind of pressure--a layer on the surface can light. The mind flayers aren't going to like this--such ignitions are commonly known as novas.
Harkle 03-07-07, 01:48 AM	Rather than destroying the sun I would just cover it in a massive globe of darkness, but make it only just big enough to cover the main mass of the sun, but flames and solar flares still shooting out of it as when particularly active. That way you still have the heat of the sun (RAW darkness spells only block light not heat) and you have this awesome globe of blackness drifting across the sky with flames weaving across its surface giving off a very dim glow.
ElIsRa 03-07-07, 03:10 AM	Even if you make it gravity immune it's going to die of the pressure. If the fires go out the star shrinks to a white dwarf. Most of it's matter is compressed to electron degeneracy--*ALL* molecular structures are destroyed. Not to mention the fact that the temperature and pressure is enough to make the flea's own body go up in a reasonable approximation of an h-bomb. (And I mean fusion, not merely a big bang.) You don't even need to be deep in the star for this kind of pressure--a layer on the surface can light. The mind flayers aren't going to like this--such ignitions are commonly known as novas. First off, I really don't need a lesson in nuclear physics, I get enough of that in school (Major: Physics). Second, this is D&D, ie fiction. There is magic, magic so powerful that destroying the sun is actually a consideration. With such powerful magic I can conceivably create a creature that can withstand the tremendously hostile environment of the sun. However, the game mechanics don't account for such hostile environments all to themselves, so it is assumed that the environment lacks such hostile conditions, otherwise I would have accounted for them in the design of the creature. Third, nothing says that a nova is the inevitable end result for this chain of events. In fact, one could make the argument that because the fussionable material is being transformed into a higher than is easily fused state more rapidly than the star has a chance to consume it, the star would not have a chance to expand then suddenly collapse. Instead it would slowly fissile out as its power is slowly sapped from it, forming a dwarfed star without a nova. I could also make the argument that materials from the elemental plane of Fire (and thus creatures with the Fire subtype) are inherently different than materials from the Prime Material plane, and thus behave differently under extreme pressure and heat. In fact, just reading the description of the Elemental Plane of Fire leads us to believe that Fire subtype matter *does* in fact behave differently than PM matter, and one can only assume that it would not fuse at the nuclear level at all, or at least not under the same circumstances that normal PM matter does.
Mirannan 03-07-07, 03:14 PM	Maybe create an epic spell using Reverse Gravity as a base? With a sufficiently large volume of effect, you could disperse the entire Sun into a rapidly expanding cloud of gas; and then possibly use an epic Gust of Wind to blow it away into interstellar space.
Tetujin 03-12-07, 01:00 AM	Before I give my submission for an epic spell I want to make sure we all have our terms defined. The Sun: The sun is about 4 * 10^30 lbs. It has enough heat and gravitational pull to destroy anything near it almost instantaneously. It is also approximately 3 * 10^8 ft away. I similarly submit that any amount of 20 mile radius cold would do nothing substantial over any amount of time. Mind flayers: According to Spelljammer, Mind flayers are actually humans from many years in the future, who's planet (perhapes the world of Greyhawk) orbited a brown dwarf star. They, during a time of crisis, found a way to travel back in time to the present and have resorted to living underground. There goal since then has been to "Put out the Sun" to return it to the environment which they are accustomed. On ether of these matters I am totally prepared to be corrected but they are the figures Im working off of. The Spell: The Age of the Eclipse (Illusion, Glamer) Spellcraft DC: 10 (before mitigation: 1920) Components: V, S, XP, Ritual Casting Time: 1 min Range: 300 ft ray. Area: Object up to 4 * 10^30 lbs. Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: Will Negates (Disbelief) SR: No To Develop: Seed: Conceal (DC 17). Factors: increase weight limit by 91 times (+363 DC, go logarithms!). Change range from touch to 300ft ray (+4 DC) Multiply DC by 5 for permanent duration. Mitigating factors: 20,000 XP (-200 DC), ritual (20 epic casters) (-380 DC), ritual (50 8th-level slots) (-750 DC), ritual (580 1st-level slots) (-580 DC). This ritual, involving every Elder Brain, Mind Flayer, and countless cultists, conceals the largest objects imaginable from sight. The spell must be delivered by the chosen one, the so-called "Umbral Martyr". This mindflayer is enchanted with Energy Immunity (Fire), Otto's Telekinetic Sphere,(Note: Always falls at 60ft per round) and Greater Teleport (Note: No distance limitation and no need to have visited before) and sent to the vile day-star. Upon transporting he will take his readied action to deliver the ray before being pulled towards the center of the sun. Once the ritual is done the sun will be hidden from sight, the world (Greyhawk?) will be locked in eternal night, and the Mind flayer empire may wreak havoc on the above world. The planet, however, will still benefit from the same rotation and orbit, as well as the usual supply of heat from the sun so there is no threat to the Mind Flayers themselves. The DC: 20 (Base for epic spells) + 16 (26 Base Elder Brain Cha, with a +12 cloak and +5 Mannual) + 2 (Greater) Spell Focus = Will DC 38 to disbelieve. This is the kind of DC an Ancient Gold Dragon only passes on a natural 20 10 or higher. So the DC is high enough that the fact that the sun still exists will be treated as a myth.There's also an interesting clause about interaction with an illusion to be made. EDIT: Actually, I see this as being a sort of Matrix/Cave situation. Only the utmost enlightened of the world have the awareness necessary to know the Sun is real and partake in the boon of it's light upon the surface. Comments: So, anyone want to check my math? I'll admit I've never even looked at the epic spell rules before an hour or two ago. Similarly, are my assumptions reasonable? (At least 20 Elder Brains, one with remotely appropriate equipment, and at least 580 Mindflayers and/or devoted cultists/slaves worldwide. As well as my above figures on the stats of the Sun, within a reasonable margin of error.)
thompsja 03-12-07, 03:03 AM	Before I give my submission for an epic spell I want to make sure we all have our terms defined. The Spell: The Age of the Eclipse (Illusion, Glamer) Spellcraft DC: 10 (before mitigation: 1920) Components: V, S, XP, Ritual Casting Time: 1 min Range: 300 ft ray. Area: Object up to 4 * 10^30 lbs. Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: Will Negates (Disbelief) SR: No To Develop: Seed: Conceal (DC 17). Factors: increase weight limit by 91 times (+363 DC, go logarithms!). Change range from touch to 300ft ray (+4 DC) Multiply DC by 5 for permanent duration. Mitigating factors: 20,000 XP (-200 DC), ritual (20 epic casters) (-380 DC), ritual (50 8th-level slots) (-750 DC), ritual (580 1st-level slots) (-580 DC). Unfortunately, the Epic rules for area and range are arithmetic and not geometric. I looked in the Epic rules, and range, for example, increases 100% per step. It does not double. Area of effect increases a little better. The statement is that increase area by 100% is +4, but a careful reading of the example spells, in multiple examples, show that the meaning is that the radius of the area of effect increases by 100%. That's why I got such a ridiculous value when I wrote up a spell sufficient to destroy a moon-sized object. Using the Eclipse spell presented in the book, could probably be enhanced until it was big enough to cover the game world, and be made permanent.
Tetujin 03-12-07, 04:25 AM	...The statement is that increase area by 100% is +4....etc Ah, so then instead of DC 4(Log2(2.0*10^27)), it's 4(2.0*10^27), or DC 8.0*10^27? Damn. So plan B: Stop me if this gets to CharOp. But a really boring way would be Cooperative Spell or silly tricks to get you up to a silly-high caster level (3.8*10^26) and cast Polymorph Any Object on it. Turning it from a sun-like star to a brown dwarf would be easily permanent. I'll return with another take at Epic Spell ideas in a day or two.
Loren Pechtel 03-12-07, 05:57 PM	How about a different approach: Forget about the sun, just make a shell to enclose the planet. So long as you don't mind taking a long time doing it it could be accomplished by repeated applications of a variant on wall of force.
BurritoAlPastor 03-12-07, 08:10 PM	While Tetujin's idea is interesting, I'm not sure a glamer would produce the needed results. The Invisibility spell description indicates that an invisible light source (such as a lantern) still produces light as normal - so, all the normal sunlight would be present, but there'd be no apparent source of it. Awesome, but ultimately ineffective. I'm also intruigued by Pechtel's Dyson sphere suggestion, but the surface area requirements would surely be prohibitive. Besides, Spelljammer indicates that the illithids are a starfaring race, and a Dyson sphere would prevent the illithids from leaving the planet. Now. Sphere of Annihilation. All the effectiveness of a black hole, none of the nasty gravitational problems, and "removed from existance" is pretty clear. It's always been my understanding that an object ceases to exist once any part of it touches the sphere, if only for clarity of rules (because half-ogre doesn't even work very well as a template, much less a creature). Best part, you don't even need to be epic. A textbook psionic illithid could do it, by my reckoning; you might have to advance him two hit dice for Psionic Overland Flight, depending on your definition of "up" and "down" for purposes of space travel. Either way, an Amulet of Adaptation, Talisman of the Sphere, Ring of Sustinence, and a Sphere of Annihilation would be enough equipment. You could do it by character level 15. It'd take a long time, though. Maybe the illithids did this a thousand years ago and they're just waiting. What's the maximum lifespan of an illithid? The real trick, however, is finding one. Easy: go derail somebody's Age of Worms campaign, you get an Amulet of the Sphere in the first dungeon.
Loren Pechtel 03-13-07, 11:57 PM	I'm also intruigued by Pechtel's Dyson sphere suggestion, but the surface area requirements would surely be prohibitive. Besides, Spelljammer indicates that the illithids are a starfaring race, and a Dyson sphere would prevent the illithids from leaving the planet. Dyson spheres enclose a star, not a planet. I do agree that it keeps them from leaving the planet--oops. Scratch my idea. Now. Sphere of Annihilation. All the effectiveness of a black hole, none of the nasty gravitational problems, and "removed from existance" is pretty clear. It's always been my understanding that an object ceases to exist once any part of it touches the sphere, if only for clarity of rules (because half-ogre doesn't even work very well as a template, much less a creature). Actually, after reading this I'm thinking the opposite--the sphere would be utterly ineffective. I don't think a star is an object, it's an environment. The sphere will no more suck it in than it sucks in the air around it.
silenceisgolden 08-07-07, 03:19 PM	Actually, after reading this I'm thinking the opposite--the sphere would be utterly ineffective. I don't think a star is an object, it's an environment. The sphere will no more suck it in than it sucks in the air around it. a sphere of annihilation may not suck in a star, but a buffed umbral blot has that vortex ability
Angus Cotton 08-10-07, 10:55 PM	The biggest problem I have with some of the ideas on this thread is that it assumes laws of physics not in evidence. Can a black hole exist in DND? Depends on the DM. Is the Sun really big? Depends on the DM. Maybe the earth is flat, the sun is a small ball on the back of a god's chariot, and the moon is the ring on the hand of night, when she agreed to marry that god. You know, this guy really has a point. Devising a way to destroy the Sun is the easy part. You will probably have to do an open battle with all the gods associated with the Sun first. Notice, you said "the Sun", not some random star. You even get close to the Sun and you better be ready to deal with Pelor, Apollo, Helios, Quetzelcoatl, and any number of other gods that might have a problem with you monkeying with their portfolio (and thus the source of their power). What would you do if someone messed with your car (or chariot as the case may be)?
QuickenedWish 09-07-07, 01:27 AM	Just a few ideas off the top of my head, worth a shot at least: 1. Some sort of epic Gate spell centered inside the Sun, with either one very large gate, or a large number of smaller Gates. Direct them to the negative energy plane and the Sun's energy could be eventually subsumed. I assume the denizens of the Negative Energy plane would not be very happy about this, but let them try to come through (to the middle of the Sun) or dispel it (which would be hard seeing as how it was cast by epic level Illithid.) 2. Construct an epic spell that polymorphs giant swaths of the Sun. What you polymorph it into doesn't matter, but something that takes a lot of energy to vaporize like ceramic could be good. Ceramic materials are also somewhat dense, so it would move towards the Sun's center, leaving you with fresh surface material to work with later. Have a dozen epic Illithid spellcasters cast this 4 or 6 times a day, and you'll have yourself a giant earthen orb in no time. Maybe even good enough to colonize, or even better, animate. You could ride it around the multiverse, all along people saying "What is that, a moon?.....Thats no moon, its an Illithid space station." Yeah, that last part made no sense, but I had to throw in a Star Wars reference. 3. A giant, extended Reverse Gravity aimed at the Sun's center? The resulting cloud of gas would eventually congeal, but you can deal with that in a few million/billion years, by which time you would have taken over the cosmos. Silly, but cool thread. QW Edit: Well, now that I look at an above post, someone already suggested a Reverse Gravity. I concede the origin of that idea to you then.
timidbarbarian 09-07-07, 02:56 AM	Drop some brown mold on the sun. I don't know about pressure or gravity, but it's ok as far as fire goes. The exponential growth will work eventually. I don't know what 3d6 nonlethal cold damage does in terms of degrees, but I figure if you cover the Sun with it entirely.... Heck you don't even need to cool it all the way. Once the surface is covered in brown mold, no light can reach the earth from the sun. Edit: Well, I just realized that my solution is neither psionic nor epic. How about we use the transport epic seed? That's a DC of 27, cast twice, once there, once back. Just give him something to avoid the fire damage.
Sol_Aedh_Avoth 09-07-07, 06:21 AM	I won't plunge in the Destruction of the Sun, but Illithyds could survive transferring all of their communities back in the Astral Plane (from which they came, if I remember right), though they'd have to face the Menaces of Gythiankis and Gythzerais... But they could at the same time develop a Ritual which exchanges their communities with the ones of Gyths, this way they'd send Gyths in the Material Plane right before the Sun is destroyed... Three Squirrels with one nut: Destruction of Prime Material, Destruction of Gyths and conquest of Astral Plane... they wouldn't stop laughing for centuries...
runestar 09-07-07, 07:21 AM	Technically not putting out the sun, but what if we just made the moon stop right in front of the sun and stay there, thus creating a permanent eclipse?:P
setekh 09-07-07, 09:18 AM	You could just chuck a modified Hole of Annihilation at the damn thing, the sun is notorious for being barely contained by it's own Gravity well, one little mess up (well okay, it would take a while I imagine) and it goes boom. It would depend on the size of the local star ofcourse as too whether or not you survive the resulting explosion.
QuickenedWish 09-07-07, 12:04 PM	You could just chuck a modified Hole of Annihilation at the damn thing, the sun is notorious for being barely contained by it's own Gravity well, one little mess up (well okay, it would take a while I imagine) and it goes boom. It would depend on the size of the local star ofcourse as too whether or not you survive the resulting explosion. If being barely contained by its own gravity well means that it is in a state of stable equillibrium, then I guess you're right. However, I would like to point out that it is not on the point of going "boom." If it weren't for the outward pressure exerted by fusion processes, the sun would collapse into a much smaller star. It certainly wouldn't go "boom" on its own accord, unless it reached the end of its life and was big enough to nova, in which both cases it is not. Nitpick over. QW
NinjaPenguin 09-07-07, 11:22 PM	Isn't there some way to move something into an accelerated timestream? Yeah, you'd have to accelerate the Sun a -lot- for it to burn itself out in any reasonable amount of time, but its another option, maybe...
BillTheManiac 09-08-07, 08:04 AM	Isn't there some way to move something into an accelerated timestream? Yeah, you'd have to accelerate the Sun a -lot- for it to burn itself out in any reasonable amount of time, but its another option, maybe... Make an epic spell based on Planar Bubble, so large it effects the sun! Then stay in a safe area outside the sun, and time trick the sun until it burns out. Unfortunately that would probably burn up the world.
Loren Pechtel 09-10-07, 09:25 PM	Isn't there some way to move something into an accelerated timestream? Yeah, you'd have to accelerate the Sun a -lot- for it to burn itself out in any reasonable amount of time, but its another option, maybe... Except the planet fries during the red giant phase. There's also the problem of drifting out of the life zone. It looks like Earth started near the outer edge of the life zone and it's going to pass through the inner edge in another billion years--long before the red giant phase. This rather suggests that no planet can remain within the life zone for the whole lifespan of it's star. If the sun of a billion years ago were to suddenly show up we would soon end up like Venus. I don't think that's what they want!
Kyuketsukiouji 09-10-07, 09:42 PM	Rise the Dark Phoenix Abjuration Spellcraft DC: 132,914,501,093,339,209,728,009,133,456, 769 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 quick action Range: touch; 300ft Area: 2,283,436,320 ft radius burst; ray Duration: Instant; 1 year or until discharged To Develop: Do you really want to know? Seeds: ward (5 points against fire) (DC 14), reflect (DC 27). Factors: Change target to area (+10), change area to 20ft radius (+2 DC), increase area by 11417181500% (+9,133,745,200 DC), additional 132,914,501,093,339,209,727,999,999,999, 995 points of protection (+132,914,501,093,339,209,727,999,999,99 9,995 DC), contingent reflection of damage on creature touched (+25 DC), change from touch to target (+4 DC), change from target to ray (+4 DC), quicken casting time (+28 DC), extend duration by 729% (+1,458 DC). This spell allows the caster to absorb all of the thermal energy contained within an average-sized M-class star. Upon casting the spell, up to 132,914,501,093,339,209,728,000,000,000, 000 points of fire damage are instantly absorbed in the burst radius. This only affects permanent effects, snuffing them out if the absorbtion covers the maximum damage that would be taken (up to 22,152,416,848,889,868,288,000,000,000,0 00d6 fire damage). The energy stolen it then transfered to the caster, who can redirect part or all of it in the form of rays while the duration lasts. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle. Or, you know, just cast a big enough Darkness spell on it...problem solved.
BillTheManiac 09-11-07, 06:59 AM	Use infinite time trick+ring of sustenence+permanent summons, then mitigate the ENTIRE THING with spell slots. I <3 epic casting.
Sagetim 09-15-07, 11:36 PM	I was reading about epic spells after getting Sandstorm(In two words: Global Warming), and because of my fix on Mind Flayers, I suddenly thought about the topic above. This topic is for a contest, for the best way to use the right combination of factors and seeds to destroy the sun itself. I will judge for creativity(You summoned a WHAT to destroy it:shocked: ?), Psicraft DC(No one wants a nigh-impossible DC, but no one wants absurd exp or casting time either:P), and your description of the spell(I won't put an example of good, but "It destroys the sun" is BAD). You may only use the core rulebooks and the ELP, because that is all you should need anyway. Edit: Oh, and if you can explain how the Mind Flayers could actually SURVIVE this, that would be nice too :P And... if anyone's reading this, could you tell me that you're entering first, I like the assurance that someone is actually reading and responding to this. I don't NEED an epic power to destroy the sun, in Fact, I could probably destroy the sun (with the right item) before level 20. I'm not saying I would survive doing it, but I could do it, that's for sure. Now then, we use body adaptation, overland flight, and a sphere of annihilation. And for the hell of it, I'll use an Elan instead of a mind flayer. however, if I have access to 100 flayers who can use 9th level spells/powers, I'll be adding them in... step one: get a sphere of annihilation. Step 2: optional: get an amulet of the sphere. step 3: have a mind flayer cast Gate. The Target is the sun. You might get away with this if you tell the DM that your character considers the Sun to be a different plane of existance. If necessary, cast miracle, or Wish, to make it work. Step 4: push sphere of annihilation into the center of the sun. Step 5: repeat until you run out of sphere's of annihilation, or the sun is destroyed. Alternates: Step 3: manifest overland flight and adapt body. Step 4: get a time keeping object and some cognizant crystals. Step 5: fly with the sphere up out of the atmosphere Step 6: fly very very slowly to the sun, using a ring of sustanance and Body adaptation to avoid death by vaccum and starvation respectively step 7: Drag sphere of annihilation with you as you plummet to your firey demise on the surface of the sun. note: if using an elan with the elan repletion feat you don't need to get a ring of sustenance. A greater ring of fire resistance might be more helpful. note 2: if using a wizard elan, cast energy immunity on self once you get close enough to the sun. Then remember to recast it every day of the journey.
Novem 09-16-07, 10:18 AM	The biggest problem I have with some of the ideas on this thread is that it assumes laws of physics not in evidence. Can a black hole exist in DND? Depends on the DM. Is the Sun really big? Depends on the DM. Maybe the earth is flat, the sun is a small ball on the back of a god's chariot, and the moon is the ring on the hand of night, when she agreed to marry that god. In that case, solar flees (I like that - CREATIVE! ;) ) black holes, and Dire winter won't do it. Instead of a blackhole, we do have such things as spheres of annihilation. You could hypothesize making one big enough, but it is an artifact, so that again puts it in the DMs hands. Besides, I liked the Eclipse spell in the ELH - it just created a disk of darkness to stop the light - same basic effect if you make a ring like that. Maybe a Dyson sphere - if the world is actually round... At some point you have to spend some resources discovering how big these things are, and what the rules are with interacting with them. ROB Unless we have evidence otherwise, assume the laws of Physics apply. Besides, it's more realistic. The Illithids will need to think up some other things before even trying to destroy the Sun. 1st, A way to get out of the way. Mass Teleportation, Starships, or a really, really big Astral Caravan can all do it. 2nd, the Dieties with the Fire portfolio, all their followers, and all sapient creatures aware of your plan and their dire will do all in their power to stop you. Having the Burning Hate bearing down on you, with his entire army and all the other deities even remotely connected to Good or the Sun will, well, kill you. So keep the plan secret. 3rd, Find something that actually works vs. a Star. Does Negative Energy even touch one? A Sphere of Annihilation won't work- as it's been mentioned, the Sun is an environment. You can't stand on the surface, as the Sun is gaseous. Also, while rings of elemental resistance will work for heat, the Sun constantly throws out awesome amounts of energy as X-Rays, Ultraviolet Light, Gamma Particles, Heavy Ions, etc.,- which, in D&D terms, is untyped damage. Do you have enough DR to resist billions of points of damage every round? There may be a reason why the Illithids haven't done it in thousands of years- because it's almost undoable. Almost.
Sagetim 09-16-07, 06:00 PM	oh, and here's what someone else suggested. Boosting the range of the dire winter spell to target the sun from the earth. Dire Winter Evocation [Cold] Spellcraft DC: 319 Components: V, S, XP Casting Time: 1 minute Range: 1,000 ft. Area: 1,000-ft.-radius emanation Duration: 20 hours Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: None To Develop: 2,871,000 gp; 58 days; 114,840 XP. Seed: energy (emanate 2d6 cold in 10-ft. radius) (DC 19). Factor: 100 times increase in base area (+400 DC). Mitigating factor: burn 10,000 XP (-100 DC). The creature or object targeted emanates bitter cold to a radius of 1,000 feet for 20 hours. The emanated cold deals 2d6 points of damage per round against unprotected creatures (the target is susceptible if not magically protected or otherwise resistant to the energy). The intense cold freezes water out of the air, causing constant snowfall and wind. The snow and wind produce a blizzard effect within the area. XP Cost 10,000 XP. There's the basic spell. And now for the increases to DC. range increase +2 per. 100% Increase casting time by 1 minute (9 times to ten minutes) total -20 increase casting time by 100 days (-200) require donation of 100 9th level spell slots. (-1700) new 'base dc' before range increase: -1601 and now for the increase of range... Base range is 1000ft. not nearly enough to reach across the 93 million miles to the sun. 491040000000 ft to the sun. from the earth. each 100% increase adds 1000 ft to the range....1000ft already covered, so we need to remove it from the equation. 491039999000 feet remain to be within the range of the spell. 491040000 % increase to the spell range required to cover remaning distance from earth to sun. +98208000 to the DC -1601 98206399 = total DC for the spell. This is unrealistically high, so if possible, more participants would be required. or...animated objects, an exemplar, and the nanobot (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=458721) technique. In which case you could scrap any mitigating factors and probably reduce casting time to 1 standard action.
Igfig 09-17-07, 12:00 PM	I'd use the power of planar breaches. Imagine the following magic item: Breachstone This stone, when broken, creates a complete planar breach to a random plane (see Planar Handbook p. 152). Strong conjuration; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, precipitate complete breach; price 9,825 gp (according to the standard creation rules) And the following epic spell: Mass Teleport Object Conjuration (Teleportation) Spellcraft DC: 41 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 minute Range: 0 ft. Area: 20-ft.-radius sphere Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will negates (object) Spell Resistance: No To Develop: bla bla bla I don't care. Seed: transport (DC 27). Factors: change from touch to 20-foot radius area (+10 DC), transport objects only (+4 DC). You teleport objects weighing in total less than 1000 lbs within twenty feet of yourself into any location on the same plane. This is instantaneous transport through the Astral Plane. Now: Make ten thousand or so breachstones. Mass teleport object them into the middle of the sun, ideally in a somewhat spread-out formation. Think of what happens when you open a complete breach to Water... or the Ethereal... or Cold... or Negative Energy... or anything else. Energy, time, and gravity traits will flow forth into the sun and mess it up something awful. If it doesn't destabilize the sun enough to destroy it on the first try, do it again with a thousand times more stones. Yeah, it'll cost a lot of money and take a long time, but those are two things of which illithids have a hell of a lot.
BillTheManiac 09-17-07, 05:16 PM	I Think of what happens when you open a complete breach to Water... or the Ethereal... or Cold... or Negative Energy... or anything else. But then, also fire and positive energy and shiny, happy, combustible bunnies.
Igfig 09-17-07, 11:17 PM	Originally Posted by BillTheManiac Think of what happens when you open a complete breach to Water... or the Ethereal... or Cold... or Negative Energy... or anything else. But then, also fire and positive energy and shiny, happy, combustible bunnies. It doesn't much matter if some of the breaches lead to fire or positive energy. If we've got a large enough imbalance, we can probably screw the sun's flow up enough to make it nova or collapse. The point isn't to snuff it with a blunt instrument; better to use finesse. It's less exertion, as well as more stylish. I remember a thread about destroying the earth where one method involved boring a hole a mile wide down to near the earth's core and keeping it open with walls of force. (This was of course a specialized epic spell). The magma came shooting out with incredible force, creating the largest volcano to have ever existed, shoving the planet into a different orbit, and eventually emptying the mantle and causing the tectonic plates to collapse. The continent-sized lava flows were also a bonus. In fact, we could do the same thing with my planar breaches. Many planes (Water, Positive, Ethereal, Mechanus, etc. etc.) have low or no pressure. Considering the pressure inside the sun, it sounds to me like each of those holes will become an enormous fountain of plasma on the planeward side. If we have enough breachstones, they could very well halve the sun's mass within a few days. (Or not, I'm no astronomer.) And really, a brute-force method takes way too much work and is too easy to disrupt (kill one of the elder brains and the ritual is screwed). It also seems contrary to the illithid mindset. A scheme with lots of prep time and a very short execution seems preferable, for the simple reason that if their prep is interrupted, it's very easy to start over.
BillTheManiac 09-18-07, 07:06 AM	It doesn't much matter if some of the breaches lead to fire or positive energy. If we've got a large enough imbalance, we can probably screw the sun's flow up enough to make it nova or collapse. The point isn't to snuff it with a blunt instrument; better to use finesse. It's less exertion, as well as more stylish. I remember a thread about destroying the earth where one method involved boring a hole a mile wide down to near the earth's core and keeping it open with walls of force. (This was of course a specialized epic spell). The magma came shooting out with incredible force, creating the largest volcano to have ever existed, shoving the planet into a different orbit, and eventually emptying the mantle and causing the tectonic plates to collapse. The continent-sized lava flows were also a bonus. In fact, we could do the same thing with my planar breaches. Many planes (Water, Positive, Ethereal, Mechanus, etc. etc.) have low or no pressure. Considering the pressure inside the sun, it sounds to me like each of those holes will become an enormous fountain of plasma on the planeward side. If we have enough breachstones, they could very well halve the sun's mass within a few days. (Or not, I'm no astronomer.) And really, a brute-force method takes way too much work and is too easy to disrupt (kill one of the elder brains and the ritual is screwed). It also seems contrary to the illithid mindset. A scheme with lots of prep time and a very short execution seems preferable, for the simple reason that if their prep is interrupted, it's very easy to start over. Must steal the earth-destroying idea for a future campaign.
Igfig 09-18-07, 12:13 PM	I'm just trying to figure out how to do that most efficiently now. We need to dig to a depth of about 3000 miles. The best way to get there, I believe, is an Origin of Species epic spell, creating some creatures that can disintegrate rock and lava and create Walls of Force at will. Perhaps some kind of ooze that is healed by fire damage and splits in two when it has enough temporary hit points. Similar to a Sun Flee or whatever we called it. Magmabore Ooze Medium Ooze (Fire) HD 1d10-4 (1 hp) Init +0 Speed: fly 40 ft (poor) AC: 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10 Attacks: Slam +0 melee Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Dig Special Qualities: Ooze traits, fire healing, split Saves: Fort +0, Ref +0, Will -5 Abilities: Str 10, Dex 10, Con 3, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1 Skills: -- Feats: -- CR: something low Advancement: 2-3 HD (Medium) Dig (Sp): As a standard action, a magmabore ooze may disintegrate a 10-foot cube of stone or magma. Wall of Force (Sp): As a standard action, a magmacore ooze may create a permanent 10x10 Wall Of Force. Fire healing (Su): For every three points of fire damage a magmacore ooze would take, it instead heals one point of damage. Split (Ex): If a magmacore ooze ever reaches double its normal full hit points, it immediately splits into two magmacore oozes, each with normal full hit points. Origin of Species: Magmabore Ooze Conjuration (Creation, Healing) Spellcraft DC: 42 Components: V, S, DF, XP Casting Time: 100 days, minutes Range: 0 ft. Effect: One constructed creature up to Medium (20 cu. ft.) Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No To Develop: 360,000 gp; 8 days; 14,400 XP. Seeds: conjure (DC 21), life (DC 27), fortify (DC 17). Factors: +1 HD (5 hp per HD) (+5 DC), add dig spell-like ability (+25 DC), add fire healing (+19 DC), add split (+27 DC), permanent (x5 DC). Mitigating factors: 40d6 backlash (-40 DC), burn 6,600 XP (-66 DC), increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC), increase casting time by 100 days (-200 DC), eleven additional casters contributing 9th-level spell slots (–187 DC), ten additional casters contributing 8th-level spell slots (–150 DC), This spell creates a new creature: a magmacore ooze. XP Cost: 6,600 XP. Yay!
Sagetim 09-18-07, 01:36 PM	I'm just trying to figure out how to do that most efficiently now. We need to dig to a depth of about 3000 miles. The best way to get there, I believe, is an Origin of Species epic spell, creating some creatures that can disintegrate rock and lava and create Walls of Force at will. Perhaps some kind of ooze that is healed by fire damage and splits in two when it has enough temporary hit points. Similar to a Sun Flee or whatever we called it. Magmabore Ooze Medium Ooze (Fire) HD 1d10-4 (1 hp) Init +0 Speed: fly 40 ft (poor) AC: 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10 Attacks: Slam +0 melee Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Dig Special Qualities: Ooze traits, fire healing, split Saves: Fort +0, Ref +0, Will -5 Abilities: Str 10, Dex 10, Con 3, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1 Skills: -- Feats: -- CR: something low Advancement: 2-3 HD (Medium) Dig (Sp): As a standard action, a magmabore ooze may disintegrate a 10-foot cube of stone or magma. Wall of Force (Sp): As a standard action, a magmacore ooze may create a permanent 10x10 Wall Of Force. Fire healing (Su): For every three points of fire damage a magmacore ooze would take, it instead heals one point of damage. Split (Ex): If a magmacore ooze ever reaches double its normal full hit points, it immediately splits into two magmacore oozes, each with normal full hit points. Origin of Species: Magmabore Ooze Conjuration (Creation, Healing) Spellcraft DC: 42 Components: V, S, DF, XP Casting Time: 100 days, minutes Range: 0 ft. Effect: One constructed creature up to Medium (20 cu. ft.) Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No To Develop: 360,000 gp; 8 days; 14,400 XP. Seeds: conjure (DC 21), life (DC 27), fortify (DC 17). Factors: +1 HD (5 hp per HD) (+5 DC), add dig spell-like ability (+25 DC), add fire healing (+19 DC), add split (+27 DC), permanent (x5 DC). Mitigating factors: 40d6 backlash (-40 DC), burn 6,600 XP (-66 DC), increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC), increase casting time by 100 days (-200 DC), eleven additional casters contributing 9th-level spell slots (–187 DC), ten additional casters contributing 8th-level spell slots (–150 DC), This spell creates a new creature: a magmacore ooze. XP Cost: 6,600 XP. Yay! If you don't mind, I'm going to take this and switch around some of the mitigating factors. After all, the make of the thread said we could have 100 9th level spells at our disposal. decrease casting time by 100 days (+200 dc) remove the xp burn and backlash (+106 dc) Add in 18 more 9th level slots (-306 dc) and viola: with 29 casters and ten minutes, you can make what? 2 or 3 per day?
BillTheManiac 09-18-07, 02:55 PM	Or call it the Vulcan. The world's most powerful somethingsomething drill.
Kyuketsukiouji 09-18-07, 07:45 PM	Wow...lots of silly mistakes here. A) Dire Winter lasts 20 hours. The sun wouldn't care. B) You can't teleport objects in the centre of the sun. It's not hollow. Can't teleport things into other things. C) By written rules, mitigating damage on a Permanent duration spell causes the damage every round, forever. Bad Idea. The whole ooze thing isn't too bad, though. But, really, the whole wall of force thing is a bit too good for something with no Int to be able to use. You're a lot better off making earth-eating ooze, that gains the temp hp it needs to split from consuming stone/magma/soil. It'll just chew your planet right up.
Igfig 09-18-07, 10:38 PM	Let it be known that I wrote my last post in about ten minutes, so I am sure there are a number of glaring mistakes. That said, You can't teleport objects in the centre of the sun. It's not hollow. Can't teleport things into other things. The sun's an environment, not an object. It doesn't block line of effect. By written rules, mitigating damage on a Permanent duration spell causes the damage every round, forever. Bad Idea. Yes, but this is one of those cases where RAW sucks. There are threads devoted to this, but quite simply, if you haven't house-ruled this out, then you probably don't play much in the epic levels. The whole ooze thing isn't too bad, though. But, really, the whole wall of force thing is a bit too good for something with no Int to be able to use. I really wanted to give it an Int score, I really did. But it's an ooze, and oozes never get Int scores, and... best to leave it as is. You're a lot better off making earth-eating ooze, that gains the temp hp it needs to split from consuming stone/magma/soil. Yes... that does kind of beat my method quite handily. Perhaps it would be possible to make a magical engine that did the same thing (though slower)? Disintegrate and Wall of Force each round, making sure the device is immune to fire damage and has sufficient hardness to avoid taking the 1d6 falling damage each time it disintegrated its floor out from underneath itself. This would take some time, but on the bright side the entire operation can be done with spells of level 6 and below. When you consider the cost of powerful epic spells, it might make more sense to use a small fleet of more-easily-built boring machines. The Vulcan device, we'll call it. Vulcan Device: When activated (which takes ten minutes and requires a precise sequence of lvl 1 psionic powers at certain intervals), this device casts Disintegrate on a ten-foot cube beneath itself, then creates five ten-by-ten Walls of Force on the cube's sides and bottom (to keep magma and the like out). Once started, a Vulcan Engine cannot be stopped except by destroying it. A Vulcan Device has Fire Resistance 30. Strong transmutation; CL 11th; Craft Wondrous Item, disintegrate, permanency, resist energy, wall of force; price 99,000 gp; weight 40 lbs. The price is highly speculative. I summed the prices of an item casting each of disintegrate, permanency, resist energy, and wall of force, then divided that by 4 because of the extremely limited scope of the item. It takes 99 days, 49,500 gp, and 3,960 XP to make one; a large amount, yes, but not that much. And does anybody have anything else to say about my sun-destruction method? I want to know if there's a glaring problem with it, or an even better way.
Sagetim 09-19-07, 02:30 AM	Let it be known that I wrote my last post in about ten minutes, so I am sure there are a number of glaring mistakes. That said, The sun's an environment, not an object. It doesn't block line of effect. Yes, but this is one of those cases where RAW sucks. There are threads devoted to this, but quite simply, if you haven't house-ruled this out, then you probably don't play much in the epic levels. I really wanted to give it an Int score, I really did. But it's an ooze, and oozes never get Int scores, and... best to leave it as is. Yes... that does kind of beat my method quite handily. Perhaps it would be possible to make a magical engine that did the same thing (though slower)? Disintegrate and Wall of Force each round, making sure the device is immune to fire damage and has sufficient hardness to avoid taking the 1d6 falling damage each time it disintegrated its floor out from underneath itself. This would take some time, but on the bright side the entire operation can be done with spells of level 6 and below. When you consider the cost of powerful epic spells, it might make more sense to use a small fleet of more-easily-built boring machines. The Vulcan device, we'll call it. Vulcan Device: When activated (which takes ten minutes and requires a precise sequence of lvl 1 psionic powers at certain intervals), this device casts Disintegrate on a ten-foot cube beneath itself, then creates five ten-by-ten Walls of Force on the cube's sides and bottom (to keep magma and the like out). Once started, a Vulcan Engine cannot be stopped except by destroying it. A Vulcan Device has Fire Resistance 30. Strong transmutation; CL 11th; Craft Wondrous Item, disintegrate, permanency, resist energy, wall of force; price 99,000 gp; weight 40 lbs. The price is highly speculative. I summed the prices of an item casting each of disintegrate, permanency, resist energy, and wall of force, then divided that by 4 because of the extremely limited scope of the item. It takes 99 days, 49,500 gp, and 3,960 XP to make one; a large amount, yes, but not that much. And does anybody have anything else to say about my sun-destruction method? I want to know if there's a glaring problem with it, or an even better way. actually the 30 fire resist isn't enough to keep magma immersion from obliterating this thing once it goes deep enough ( 20d6 fire/ round). Anyway, we're talking mind flayers blowing world, not a lone crazy guy. mind flayer resources (as stated earlier) are: elder brain casting, and 100 9th level slots available for mitigation.
Igfig 09-19-07, 05:54 PM	actually the 30 fire resist isn't enough to keep magma immersion from obliterating this thing once it goes deep enough ( 20d6 fire/ round). Ah, but we never will get immersion. The Vulcan device creates Walls of Force to hold back the magma, which means that it never actually takes 20d6 damage. The fire resistance 30 is just to protect it from the ambient heat of the environment. Combined with the half damage from fire common to all objects, it's immune to anything dealing 10d6 or less, which should be enough. Anyway, we're talking mind flayers blowing world, not a lone crazy guy. mind flayer resources (as stated earlier) are: elder brain casting, and 100 9th level slots available for mitigation. Actually, we're talking about mind flayers destroying the sun. The earth-destroying question has no specified context, but since BillTheManiac was considering using it in a campaign, I thought it wise to provide the most efficient method I could. Being able to destroy the planet by level 11 (assuming sufficient wealth) is pretty efficient.
Sagetim 09-20-07, 08:34 PM	Ah, but we never will get immersion. The Vulcan device creates Walls of Force to hold back the magma, which means that it never actually takes 20d6 damage. The fire resistance 30 is just to protect it from the ambient heat of the environment. Combined with the half damage from fire common to all objects, it's immune to anything dealing 10d6 or less, which should be enough. Actually, we're talking about mind flayers destroying the sun. The earth-destroying question has no specified context, but since BillTheManiac was considering using it in a campaign, I thought it wise to provide the most efficient method I could. Being able to destroy the planet by level 11 (assuming sufficient wealth) is pretty efficient. ah, okay...um. There is a problem though. Eventually you DO hit magma. Once you get down far enough, you'll hit magma, As well, the dust remains from the disintigration will eventually pile up. If it gets deep enough, it may well bury itself until it starts to be crushed apart by the dust of the disintigtations. Anyhow, I meant that once the device hits the planet core, it will be immersed in magma, thus, it will wind up being subjected to the magma damage. back to sun destroying though. why not use the transform seed to turn the sun into a giant ball of grass? or just part of the sun? Or, if you REALLY want to screw with people, use the life seed to make it sentient. quickened casting time, prepared action, use greater teleport to get there and use quickened to get the spell out, then use multispell (since epic feats are available) to use another quickened action to teleport home.
Igfig 09-20-07, 09:57 PM	ah, okay...um. There is a problem though. Eventually you DO hit magma. Once you get down far enough, you'll hit magma, As well, the dust remains from the disintigration will eventually pile up. If it gets deep enough, it may well bury itself until it starts to be crushed apart by the dust of the disintigtations. That is a possibility, I guess. I'll set up some Gusts of Wind in the shaft to take care of those. Anyhow, I meant that once the device hits the planet core, it will be immersed in magma, thus, it will wind up being subjected to the magma damage. Well, no, as a matter of fact it wouldn't. See, the device disintegrates the lava, and immediately lines the walls and floor of the disintegrated block with Walls of Force. There will never be a time when there is no Wall of Force between the Device and the magma. (well, until it disintegrates the last block and starts the volcano, but we expected that.) why not use the transform seed to turn the sun into a giant ball of grass? or just part of the sun? Or, if you REALLY want to screw with people, use the life seed to make it sentient. Because it costs a lot of DC? And is probably impossible if the Sun is an environment rather than an object? quickened casting time, prepared action, use greater teleport to get there and use quickened to get the spell out, then use multispell (since epic feats are available) to use another quickened action to teleport home. Good idea. That'll make our spells easier to cast, since we won't need to pay for range increases. We'll need some way to boost Concentration massively, though, since the caster will be taking continuous damage while casting.
QuickenedWish 09-20-07, 11:13 PM	Alright, I'm gonna try my hand at a serious attempt. Note that I may use a ritual a bit larger than 100 persons, but nothing I don't think an Elder Brain couldn't whip up on a whim if it wanted. I will base all physical attributes of the Sun in question as identical to those our our own. I am basing this epic spell on the Precipitate Complete Beach spell as described in the Planar Handbook, which causes a breach between planes, and which also states that if there is a difference in pressure between two planes breached, material transport may occur. This breach is normally 10 feet in radius and spherically shaped. Though normally impossible to determine the target plane of a PCB, a transport seed allows direction to whichever plane one chooses. For the purposes of this spell, this would be the negative energy plane. I assume that any material crossing into the Negative Energy Plane is quickly dispersed and subsumed. Effectively this spell works as a sphere of annihilation, but with the precept that it does indeed affect an environment. Stats I assume: Radius as measured from center to photosphere: 6.95 x 10^8 m Gravitational acceleration at the surface: 276 m/seconds squared How it works (Please read above first for important introductory information): A large opening is breached in the Sun that leads to a vacuum. This breach is spherical in shape. Any material that enters can be regarded as disintegrated. This is the Negative Energy Pane we're talking about. Since that is the case, we can now assume that the Sun accelerates inward at a rate equal to its acceleration due to gravity. For the surface, this acceleration is 276 m/s^2. Finding the amount of time it takes to reduce the Sun's radius is tricky, because the acceleration depends on the current radius and mass. However, since the mass is decreasing (decreasing g) and the radius is decreasing (increasing g) lets just assume, conservatively and for simplicity, that g, defined as 276 m/s^2, remains constant for most of the Sun's destruction. Note that the acceleration of stellar material will be much, much larger as it nears the breach, which lies at the Sun's center. So, the Sun collapses at an acceleration of approximatively that of g at the surface. Now we can see how long it would take to collapse it to any significant degree. For this we can use a simple equation of motion, d = 0.5(g)(t^2), or t = sqrt(2d/g). To collapse the Sun to 3/4 its original radius, or a distance of 1.74 x 10^8 m, it would take about 1123 seconds, or around 19 minutes. In another 7 minutes the Sun's radius recede to half its original size. Note that these calculations are more guidelines or speculation than anything. The important point being that the surface of the Sun can be considered to be in a free fall, and that it would not take long to reduce the Sun in size by a significant amount. Now, the Epic Spell: Maw of Dark Consumption: Conjuration (Teleportation) Spellcraft DC: 109 Components: V, S, XP, Ritual Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: A sphere with a 2640 ft. radius Target or Effect: Personal Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes To Develop: 981,000 gp, 20 days, 39240 XP Seeds: shadow (DC 23), transport (DC 27) Factors: Emulate a 9th level spell (Precipitate Complete Breach) (+40 DC), Increase radius 131 times (+524 DC), Dismissable by caster (+2 DC), Interplanar travel (+4 DC), Set target of spell to personal (+2 DC), Contingent on specific Trigger (death of spellcaster) (+25 DC), Permanent Duration (x5) Mitigating Factors: 10 minute casting time (-20 DC), 100 additional casters contributing 9th level spell slots (-1700 DC), 100 additional casters contributing 7th level spell slots (-1300 DC), Burn 10,000 XP (-100 DC) The ritual casting of this dark incantation must proceed at night time, in only artificial illumination. At the end of the 10 minute rite, the mumbling of the primary spellcaster reaches a crescendo. Half of the 200 ritualists cast Precipitate Complete Breach, and half cast Plane Shift. Complex, shadowed runes cover the body of the caster, his flesh now a receptacle to the awesome energies needed to produce a massive, permanent breach between the planes. He stands there for but a moment until his body is whisked away in a blaze of black flame. The caster is transported to the center of the Sun, and is immediately disintegrated. The spell, upon the death of the caster, triggers. A breach is wrought between the current plane and the Plane of Negative Energy. This breach starts out as 20 foot in diameter, but quickly grows to a mile from end to end. The breach acts as a complete planar breach, albeit on a much grander scale. It is now only a matter of time before the Sun collapses into a bottomless, hungry void...
bluetooth 09-21-07, 12:17 AM	I don't see how anything is going to work if you define the sun as an "environment" that said I like the solar fleas ideas. Still, I can't participate until someone (likely the OP) gives us a stat block for the sun. Is it an object? a creature? if it's something murky like an "environment" than I seriously doubt anything it going to work, and since the OP would like this to be possible, he's going to have to define the sun in a more concrete way. But if the OP defines the sun as being identical in all or most ways to our sun, I have to believe the sphere (or multiple spheres) of annihilation would work. (though the mind flayers would do well to include Dramji's instant summons on them cause they need something to keep the planet from turning into an icycle. My guess for why the SoA doesn't eat up the air is that it is, in some sense, designed not to. I can't remember the flavor text for it, but it could be specifically designed to reject particles of a certain type or speed/frequency to collision. This means it could be tuned to suck up water and not oxygen or nitrogen. If so it would certainly work on the sun. This is all speculation however. When the OP (or anyone) gives us a stat block for the sun, I'll go for the epic power consideration. In the mean time I believe that the enourmous darkness spell would be a much better idea. Here's a VERY interesting way to pull it off. Create an epic power that creates magical darkness but is NOT an illusion (you'd need something like the custom Light seed). Make the duration instantaneous. Then just start moving about the planet, putting the darkness over one place at a time. eventually they can cover the whole planet in darkness without having to bother with the sun.
Disciple_of_Salsa 09-21-07, 01:28 AM	There's this old trick on the CO boards, called the Omnificer. Basically, it allows you an infinite skill check. Design some super high DC spell that causes the sun to die. Then do the Omnificer thing, and just shoot the sun with the spell.
BillTheManiac 09-21-07, 07:15 AM	There's this old trick on the CO boards, called the Omnificer. Basically, it allows you an infinite skill check. Design some super high DC spell that causes the sun to die. Then do the Omnificer thing, and just shoot the sun with the spell. It requires rules working extremely not as intended.
rob_douglas 09-21-07, 05:44 PM	RE: Omnificer idea - You seem to be forgetting that Epic Spellcasting isn't just about making an insane Spellcraft DC. That DC sets the cost and time to research as well, so making it arbitrarily infinite makes your spell take forever to research. But I don't think the point of this thread was to find a way to make the DC - they will be able to do that. The challenge is to actually design this spell of which you speak - the really large DC one that will knock out the sun. ROB
BillTheManiac 09-21-07, 06:13 PM	RE: Omnificer idea - You seem to be forgetting that Epic Spellcasting isn't just about making an insane Spellcraft DC. That DC sets the cost and time to research as well, so making it arbitrarily infinite makes your spell take forever to research. But I don't think the point of this thread was to find a way to make the DC - they will be able to do that. The challenge is to actually design this spell of which you speak - the really large DC one that will knock out the sun. ROB I figured out ways to bypass this using other TO builds, but it turned out you might as well just be an illithid Pun-Pun with the cheese you need to case an infinite-DC epic spell.
Sagetim 09-21-07, 08:20 PM	Wait...I've got it! you can send the sun to hell. You can do this in a number of ways. The first is with one spell using the life, transformation, and banishment seeds. The second is to use two or three spells. One to bring it to life The second to turn it into a ta'nari the third to banish it to hell. You'd be taking out both the sun AND demon's at the same time. It would be karmically balanced...kinda. Since your doing great evil by banishing the sun, but 'good' by obliterating hell.
Igfig 09-22-07, 11:36 AM	Wait...I've got it! you can send the sun to hell. You can do this in a number of ways. The first is with one spell using the life, transformation, and banishment seeds. The second is to use two or three spells. One to bring it to life The second to turn it into a ta'nari the third to banish it to hell. You'd be taking out both the sun AND demon's at the same time. It would be karmically balanced...kinda. Since your doing great evil by banishing the sun, but 'good' by obliterating hell. Tanar'ri don't live in Hell. And planes are divided into layers, which means you'd devastate part of only one layer.
Sagetim 09-22-07, 03:57 PM	Tanar'ri don't live in Hell. And planes are divided into layers, which means you'd devastate part of only one layer. eh, you'd still screw at least one layer over.
Andorxor 09-26-07, 05:48 AM	Wait...I've got it! you can send the sun to hell. You can do this in a number of ways. The first is with one spell using the life, transformation, and banishment seeds. The second is to use two or three spells. One to bring it to life The second to turn it into a ta'nari the third to banish it to hell. You'd be taking out both the sun AND demon's at the same time. It would be karmically balanced...kinda. Since your doing great evil by banishing the sun, but 'good' by obliterating hell. Lets calculate the DC: Life: 27 touch to ray: +4 Range increment to reach the minimum distance earth sun: 76 ----------------- 107 Transform: 21 Range increment to reach the minimum distance earth sun: 76 To change the type to lawfull evil outsider: 5 -------------------------------------------- 102 Banisment: 27 Range increment to reach the minimum distance earth sun: 80 32 HD(HD of collosal animated object,i assume that life turns the sun into one):+9 ---------------------------------------------- 116
BillTheManiac 09-26-07, 06:55 AM	Lets calculate the DC: Life: 27 touch to ray: +4 Range increment to reach the minimum distance earth sun: 76 ----------------- 107 Transform: 21 Range increment to reach the minimum distance earth sun: 76 To change the type to lawfull evil outsider: 5 -------------------------------------------- 102 Banisment: 27 Range increment to reach the minimum distance earth sun: 80 32 HD(HD of collosal animated object,i assume that life turns the sun into one):+9 ---------------------------------------------- 116 Once again an attempt fails due to its use of logarithms.
Andorxor 09-26-07, 07:47 AM	You could use the Contact:Seed to write a message all over the sun that is long enought to block all sunlight.
WombleHunter 09-26-07, 12:19 PM	Level 1 spell in Drow of the Underdark that "extinguishes one nonmagical light source" within range... with no limits on what the lightsource can be or how big it is. You just have to get within Close range of the sun to cast it...
Sagetim 09-26-07, 02:40 PM	Level 1 spell in Drow of the Underdark that "extinguishes one nonmagical light source" within range... with no limits on what the lightsource can be or how big it is. You just have to get within Close range of the sun to cast it... so you get a handful of drow wizard apprentices...Teleport them to the sun, then hope they can pull it off before burning? I still like turning the sun into a living outsider, then banishing it to hell. Granted, if I could have one epic spell for use by a BBEG, it would be 'go to hell'. Seeds: transform, banish dc: 56 factors: transform seed (21), banish seed (27), transform to evil outsider (5) 20hd total banishment (+3) saving throw: fort or will (determined by caster when researching spell). description: This spell transforms the target into a chaotic evil outsider, then sends them to hell. They do not gain any damage reduction, powers, or many of the perks of being a demon. In fact, the spell causes them to taste extra delicious to any demon or devil that chooses to consume the target.
Kyuketsukiouji 09-26-07, 07:28 PM	The sun's an environment, not an object. It doesn't block line of effect. The inside of the sun is as much an "environment" as the inside of a mountain, or some random spot in the elemental plane of earth. Unless you can find an air bubble and a solid surface to appear on, you're not teleporting there.
Igfig 09-26-07, 08:29 PM	Level 1 spell in Drow of the Underdark that "extinguishes one nonmagical light source" within range... with no limits on what the lightsource can be or how big it is. You just have to get within Close range of the sun to cast it... I think you win the efficiency award. I'd give you a cookie, but I ate them all. The inside of the sun is as much an "environment" as the inside of a mountain, or some random spot in the elemental plane of earth. Unless you can find an air bubble and a solid surface to appear on, you're not teleporting there. Oh, it's on. According to this (http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/interior.shtml), although the density of the sun's core is pretty high, once you get into the radiative zone, the density starts to fall from about that of gold to less than that of water. Since it's possible to teleport within the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze (which is pretty dense), I would expect that anyplace more than 350,000 km (about halfway) from the centre of the sun could be teleported to. That's plenty.
Sagetim 09-26-07, 08:59 PM	wait! I've got it! you that engine thing that casts wall of force. Turn off the disintigrate feature, and have it build enough walls of force that you can teleport to a place near the sun. Like...oh..Duh...a forcecage. Anywho, the sun isn't a disintigration spell, so it can't break down the wall of force. However, you can still aim at things through a wall of force...and even if you can't, it would give you enough time to port there, then prepare a disintigrate on the wall followed by a quickened epic on the sun.
Igfig 09-27-07, 01:50 AM	We'd need to boost the heat resistance of the Vulcan, maybe to full-blown immunity. The inside of the sun is a lot hotter than lava. A lot. Fire immunity might not even cut it. The core is about 15 million degrees kelvin. But yeah, that would work. Since the Vulcan moves at 10 ft./6 s (or 1.8 km/h), we'll have to start 22 years ahead of time, assuming we start disintegrating at half-depth. Whoa, I just thought of something really annoying. How close to the caster do the ritualists have to be? I'm guessing that the distance can be no more than a few hundred miles, which means that all 100 of the 17+th level casters will have to be in the sun with the Elder Brain that's casting. We'll need more space in the cage, and probably a cadre of buffers to keep the heat from getting to them. This will be quite an expedition.
Rohano 09-27-07, 03:33 AM	Ok, ok, ok, hold up. First of all, I'm not going to argue physics. Second, I'm going to totally circumvent a few snags on the following bases: *These proposals are for HILARITY or EXPERIMENTATION. Do not flame my methods! I will not care! *The only epic mindflayer I ever made was, in my opinion, the ultimate expression of powergaming and optimization. He was CR 21 or so, CL would've been around 30. I will assume that I'm using him. *Know that, via roleplaying, a great deal of powergaming can be accomplished. I once had a halfling cleric of Fharlagnh who took over an entire nation (quite by 'accident') by level 5, and became so rich that all of Faerun erupted in a devastating war, followed by Bane and other evils taking over my nation (just before I slapped them around). *I slap around Boccob and other gods of magic. If this is related to FR (if in Planescape or Spelljammer, I just planeshift to Faerun), I pick up Mystra, too (she's the penultimate magic god, she has ultimate control of all magical expression). If she's dead or split into new gods or whatever the current FR nonsense is, I just time travel and nab her, or force her to be reborn, etc. *I pick up Corellon and other archer gods. *I don't use any spell directly on Sol. If the Sun gods have problems, I tell them that there's other suns in other solar systems and planes that they can go sit on if their legs need warming. If they still have problems, see: Mystra. *Projectiles fired at the Sun that are fireproof will be pulled into the Sun with great force, assuming that the force put out by the heat alone is negated by fire immunity (penetrating a corona is no small feat, jokes aside). *In my cosmologies, the Prime Material is the universe as we know it. Galaxies abound. I assume that if we're dealing with spacetravelling illithids from the future and we're not in Spelljammer, this is similar or the same. Using my penultimate casting ability, given the bases above, I enchant Corellon to be able to shoot Sol. Then I enchant his weapons to be fireproof. Not gravity proof, though, I want the Sun to pull its doom into it. Now, there's a few options. A) As it has already been presented, put a voidstone, black hole, umbral blot, sphere of annihilation, breachstone, quantum singularity, or other crazed maniacal thing in the sun, given that I have the universe's best archer kneeling before me. B) If an archer can't do it, I cast some spells and kick some gods to get Colossal halfling to do it. C) I can just open a gate inside the sun to an elemental plane of choice. Preferably, the Elemental Plane of Earth. Water would fill my solar system with steam, earth would create a magmatic planet eventually (given a few millenia, assuming the Sun doesn't explode or something first). D) I put <pick a god or pantheon> in the Sun and grab the a lawn chair and hotwings. Or brains, as the case may be (actually, souls). E) <Insert ranged specialist, god or not> fires fireproof projectiles at the sun until it explodes. Using my magical arsenal, I maximize the damage in all ways possible, and wait the few centuries until the Sun starts either shrinking or shuddering violently. If my methods are too specific, if destroying the Sun or turning it into a rock is not what the Elder Brains want (whom I do not serve, anyway), I just cast some tricky spells to transfigure the Sun into a brown dwarf. Or... F) Casting a giant smokescreen, bathing <planet> in semidarkness. G) Surrounding the sun with fireproof tarp H) Take the whiny illithids to the Elemental Plane of Earth, use my magic to make some permanent underdark settlements for them to live in. With a gate to some city where they can get fresh brains. I) Take the illithids to some other planet with a brown dwarf. Leave 'em to their brainless existence (or a big war with native creatures, which would be entertaining). And that's about it for my powergaming this year. No - decade.