Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kihon 05-31-07, 09:43 AM	First let me begin by begging forgiveness for poor spelling - at work, no books. Does anyone remember where it states that Grazzt wants to end the Bloodwar? Memory tells me that he wants to secretly end the Bloodwar, join with the Devils & lolths and have all three forces of evil storm the heavenly gates. Anyone have an idea where that is written? Second - because such a thing would surely take "Epic Characters" to stop - since it would involve Demon Princes, Cambions, Iggwy, Iuz, Arch-Devils, & unique Lolths, and perhaps even evil powers... Does anyone know of an adventure that has this idea already printed? Or will I be creating it as I go with my epic group? Any help at all would be appreciated. Yes I know that "cannon" is the bloodwar will never end, and No demon would try to make peace with a devil - but I swear that I read somewhere that Grazzt secretly has tried to make overtures to the Devils in an effort for this to happen. Thaks again for the help.
Witch 05-31-07, 09:44 AM	Actually, canon does not say that the Blood War will never end. It says that when it ends, it will spell the end of the universe as we now it. Graz'zt often sends out ambassadors, not always in secret. Oh, on a quite related note: this is what I was planning for my own epic campaign.
runestar 05-31-07, 09:52 AM	Its ironic - I can totally see the celestials having a vested interest to ensure that the blood war never ends. Though I wonder what extent they are prepared to go to to maintain this status quo...:P
Taeldrin Laesrash 05-31-07, 10:12 AM	You'd be surprised-The Planescape box Hellbound describes how the celestials are trying to keep the fiends killing each other.
Kihon 05-31-07, 10:31 AM	I totally picture Graz'zt hooking up with Princess Glasya, who brings in her friend Lady Fierna. Those two obviously get their respective "fathers" invovled and suddenly you have a large chunk of the Nine Hells being friendly (neutral) towards a few planes of the abyss. Throw in a bunch of lolth's for hire and you have the start of a good sized army. Graz'zt's plans have Orcus and Demogorgon facing each other with their armies engaged with each other, so that Graz'zt's armies were left relatively open to join with Hell's forces, and the lolth's bought and paid for troops. Add in for fun, some random Slaadi army - just because they decided to join in the fun of raiding the upper planes. Now add in the fun of Graz'zt's old girlfriend Iggwy (the most epic of all female wizards) and her armies plus her son's (Iuz) forces and they are all just joining in for the fun of it. Now the wild card are the abominations and other epic evil types that Graz'zt has been cultivating over the eons. Now that's an army coming knocking on Heaven's Gates...
Witch 05-31-07, 10:34 AM	I don't think you could ever convine Asmodeus to join up with Graz'zt. Or any Chaos. Ever.
Kihon 05-31-07, 10:52 AM	I must respectfully disagree with you Witch. If the Arch-devils thought they could use the demons to destroy the upper planes, they certainly would. Of course everyone would be trying to use everyone else, and that's the fun of Evil. Graz'zt hopes to use Asmodeus, Asmodeus hopes to use Graz'zt, the lolth's are just hoping to double dip and get paid by both, etc... Evil using itself, but I can totally see a "temporary" alliance agains the forces of Good. Of course it's a very Epic storyline, and any DM can do what they want with it - but it's totally plausbile. Graz'zt is always sending out alliance proposals - and Asmodeus is smart enough to try and use one of these - someday...Haha. Just think of the epic possibilities...
Witch 05-31-07, 10:54 AM	Asmodeus doesn't want to destroy the upper planes. He wishes to dominate them.
Kihon 05-31-07, 11:32 AM	Right... think of using the demons to help Dominate the Upper Planes...of course the upper planes may have defenders??? And of course he would want to use the demons to help eliminate some of those defenders...right? Anyways - I think it could be a cool plot line, and I don't think it's too off line with the current 'cannon' of how the two races see the cosmos.
Deper 05-31-07, 11:53 AM	That wouldn't happen. The demons seek to destroy and rend. You'd tear the Upper Planes appart by sending them in. There wouldn't be anything to Dominate.
Kihon 05-31-07, 12:20 PM	The devils think they are using the demons as cannon fodder to help them dominate the upper planes. The demons think they are using the devils as cannon fodder to help them destroy the upper planes. The lolths & slaads & whoever else signs on is using both to sides to get paid, twice, loot & plunder while in the upper planes. The whole time the upper planes is trying to restart the stinking bloodwar because they have suddenly found themselves in a bad position. Evil gentlemen uses itself - either way - who can say ---- this is why they often/if ever work together... but think of the epic campaign:)
Deper 05-31-07, 12:56 PM	The devils think they are using the demons as cannon fodder to help them dominate the upper planes. The demons think they are using the devils as cannon fodder to help them destroy the upper planes. The lolths & slaads & whoever else signs on is using both to sides to get paid, twice, loot & plunder while in the upper planes. The whole time the upper planes is trying to restart the stinking bloodwar because they have suddenly found themselves in a bad position. Evil gentlemen uses itself - either way - who can say ---- this is why they often/if ever work together... but think of the epic campaign:) Problem is that the Devils won't trust the demons and the demons don't follow Graz'zt, so they won't trust the devils. Devils don't trust the demons on a fundamental level because they know they can't be trusted, and the demons know that the devils wouldn't trust them unless they had some massive doublecross planned. It spirals into paranoia that would rip the alliance apart really quickly. If Asmodeus wanted to team up with the Devils he would have attempted it long ago. There's no way he'd enter into an alliance just because his daughter wanted him to. If anything, he might strip her of her position for even considering such an alliance.
rob_douglas 05-31-07, 02:10 PM	I think the plan comes from the new Return to the Demonweb Pits. It is lower level, but really needs to an Epic treatment. It involves many Cosmic entities, or at least their representatives. ROB
Kihon 05-31-07, 02:26 PM	Thanks for brining us back 'on line' Rob. I will have to check that supplement out for ideas to use in my epic campaign. Now for the rest of the story... Forgetting the "they won't do it" mentality... because D&D is - if nothing else - very flexible in the way a DM can do whatever (like have an alliance form for the sake of an epic game)... Any thoughts on the best way for Graz'zt to do this? Who in the Arch-Devil Ladder is likely to take him up on the offer? (ya, ya - I know - no one... that's why I used Big A's daughter). I'm looking for suggestions as to who would be likely to try and ally (if very temporarily) for the sake of burning down heaven's gates (yes both sides have different end goals, but both understand the usefulness of using each other to obtain them). Again - any thoughts or suggestions would be helpful. I'm trying to plan out an epic campgain that will go 10-20 levels starting at level 21-23 (all characters at 21st at least, but a few higher because of racial adjustments).
LeuktheSavior 05-31-07, 02:33 PM	Asmodeus would never work with Demons. ever. Evil uses evil, but Asmodeus is the living manifestation of the concept of lawful evil. Demons represent everything he strives to dominate. to make an alliance with something like that would be to admit that the demons cannot be beat (which the devils are aware of and have accepted), and cannot be held in a stalemate, proving that chaos would ultimately prevail over law, and thus making the entire devil society the losers on a philosphical scale. What self respecting devil would do that?
Deper 05-31-07, 02:42 PM	I guess I just can't see what Graz'zt can offer any of the Lords of the Nine. All of the Lords want to take over Asmodeus's position, and the inability for Demons to teleport into anything but the first layer means that troops to take out Asmodeus are unlikely. And in the wake of the Reckoning, it's unlikely they're going to try an armed revolt again anytime soon. Now, I'm not saying that its impossible, just that Graz'zt has to have something extremely favourable to the Lord that would make them accept the alliance. That means that he needs something that is worth aiding in destroying Orcus and Demogorgon (Graz'zt big adversaries) and risking Asmodeus's wrath for consorting with the enemy. Really, the only thing I can see that would get Asmodeus to work with Graz'zt is a sure cure for his wounds that is guaranteed not to enslave him in anyway to the Demon Lord past a specifically worded contract that the Lord of the Ninth would demand. But in order to shut down the Blood War, you'd also need the forces of Orcus and Demogorgon to be onside (or at least utterly destroyed). Ending the Blood War would take far more than 4 Lords of the Nine (even Asmodeus) aligning with a single Demon Lord, since the other Demon Lords are going to keep fighting (and adding a single powerful demon lord to the strength of the Devils isn't going to be enough to end the Blood War in one swoop. So does anyone have any idea for what could possibly get around the problems that a fractured Abyssal leadership would produce towards the alliance?
Lacyon 05-31-07, 02:47 PM	Asmodeus would never work with Demons. If Asmodeus wanted to team up with the Devils he would have attempted it long ago. There's no way he'd enter into an alliance just because his daughter wanted him to. I don't think you could ever convine Asmodeus to join up with Graz'zt. Or any Chaos. Ever. IIRC, there's a section in Fiendish Codex II stating that Asmodeus is planning to forge a pact with (some) demons to start attacking the upper planes. He expects the arrangement to break apart eventually (and he probably expects that the smarter demons know this). Asmodeus' plan is to cause enough of a disturbance to shift conflict in the Outer Planes from Law vs. Chaos to Good vs. Evil in some way that presumably leaves him in a better position than his current one. I'm away from books right now, so I can't give any more details (or page numbers), and there weren't that many details to begin with (so of course it could all just be a fake-out). -Lacyon
Deper 05-31-07, 02:54 PM	Asmodeus would never work with Demons. ever. Evil uses evil, but Asmodeus is the living manifestation of the concept of lawful evil. Demons represent everything he strives to dominate. to make an alliance with something like that would be to admit that the demons cannot be beat (which the devils are aware of and have accepted), and cannot be held in a stalemate, proving that chaos would ultimately prevail over law, and thus making the entire devil society the losers on a philosphical scale. What self respecting devil would do that? If they could make an alliance that had real consequences, such as an epic spell that acts like a geas that binds all demons and demon lords currently in existant and those that will be come into existance to the alliance, and automatically destroys any of them(with no save) that betray (knowingly or otherwise) Asmodeus, the other Lords of the Nine, or the strict terms or listed goals of the alliance, try to negate the consequences of betraying the alliance, cause the break down of the alliance itself, or accept the breaking of the alliance, either through action, accident, or manipulation or accidental manipulation of others, and that should the alliance break all without the express agreement of all the Lords of the Nine, all demons would suffer the consequences as if they had been the ones to break the alliance. That would prove Law to be greater than Chaos, since it would bind chaos under strict rules that it could not get free of (baring extraordinary circumstances). But there's no way that any of the Demon Lords would agree to be bound or have their vassels bound to an agreement like that, since it would effectively make them the servants of the Lords of the Nine and Asmodeus, permanently accepting something less that total rulership. Asmodeus wouldn't have a problem with that, but the Demon Lords (and probably Mestophilies) would.
rob_douglas 05-31-07, 02:56 PM	If you were in Greyhawk, you could blame it all on Tharizdun. And in that case, use his minions, which include the Daeomon, and the Oinodaemon in particular. In the Greyhawk mythology, according to the Gord the Rogue series, Tharizdun would unite all Evil under 1 banner. The Daemon's are behind it (sorry, Yugoloth's) as the Oinodaemon is also Nerull, or his avatar, or vice-versa. It is pretty unclear. But anyway, Nerull is Big-T's Herald. So to bring Big-T back, and end the universe (presumably to be remade with the Daemon's on top) they need to get demons and devils to work together. Glasya was recently installed as an archdevil with her own plane, the 6th layer. So she is young, and impertinent. Grazz't could make overtures to her, but she needs someone else whispering in her ear to tell her she is really in control and it was her idea. Grazz't plans to use a lull in the blood war to take out Demogorgon and/or Orcus and consolidate his power. So he has a reason to end the fighting. Lolth is concerned with godly matters and thinks herself above the blood war, so she is happy to oblige by not fighting. She is conquering some new worlds and increasing her follower base. Now Glasya has allies, as you noted, Fierna foremost. She is also described as not really paying enough attention to running her plane. She is like the Paris Hilton of Hell. The pair are used to distract Bel from prosecuting the Blood War for a time. They could bluff orders from "higher up" or intercept units of troops moving between areas. They gain control of these units for their own purposes, but as long as Grazz't stops the demon attacks, no one will notice as there is no defensive weakening. Yugoloths provide some back up, and may even get Hextor to prop up the devil armies for a time. Now, if Baalzebul gets a handle on what is going, on, he would want to use it against Asmodeus to make a play for his position. He hates Asmodeus for his past treatment. Presuming there is a way to rearrange the hierarchy (if there is not, why do they keep trying?????) then Baalzebul sits on this information until it can do the most harm, even lending bluff support, being the master of lies. Baalzebul is allied with Moloch and Geryon, who were both deposed as archdevils, so they also will help. And Glasya at least at one time was consort to Mammon and might enlist his aid. So now you have nearly all the hierarchy of Hell working against each other to bring about a reordering, much like the failed revolution that cost so many their positions - all relying on a lull in the blood war to do it. So while they won't stop hating the demons, they will make them someone else's problem for now. That someone else - the Upper Planes. The devils can't afford to fight there, but they can afford to offer help through the daemons to distract Good. And minions of Tharizdun approve because all the while, no one is noticing the subtle influence he is gaining, as the three forces join in actions, resulting in a freeing of the imprisoned god of all evil. Or something like that.... ROB
Deper 05-31-07, 03:03 PM	IIRC, there's a section in Fiendish Codex II stating that Asmodeus is planning to forge a pact with (some) demons to start attacking the upper planes. He expects the arrangement to break apart eventually (and he probably expects that the smarter demons know this). Asmodeus' plan is to cause enough of a disturbance to shift conflict in the Outer Planes from Law vs. Chaos to Good vs. Evil in some way that presumably leaves him in a better position than his current one. I'm away from books right now, so I can't give any more details (or page numbers), and there weren't that many details to begin with (so of course it could all just be a fake-out). -Lacyon The problem is that he isn't just going to go "Graz'zt, here's a pact. Let's end the Blood War and go hunt some angels instead." He needs the Blood War to effectively end before he can take on the Upper Planes. He also isn't going to accept any type of pact that has any chance of being broken until he is utterly ready for it to be broken. Finally, he isn't going to make a pact with any demon that can't offer him the healing he needs, and the assurance that the pact will ensure the end of the Blood War. I'm sure he could eventually manipulate events that he could find the partners he's looking for, but whether or not that will stand for the period he needs it to or happens during the window he needs is another story. Just because he's looking to doesn't mean he will accept a pact with any old demon lord looking to make one, or even during a specific period. Graz'zt could offer a pact and Asmodeus would reject it because accepting it at that time wouldn't work or might overturn some of his other plans (such as pacts he needs to establish with Orcus and Demogorgon). He isn't going to accept it just because his daughter supports it (and she wouldn't support it unless it ensured the destruction of Leviticus, which it won't unless Asmodeus is ready to let Leviticus be destroyed). It all comes back to what Asmodeus wants and his time table. If he isn't ready, he'll let the opportunity pass, because he knows that it will eventually come around again when he is ready.
Anodai 05-31-07, 03:18 PM	Under normal circumstances, no CE demon would ally with a LE Devil. as demons and devils are both embodiments of evil they are also embodiments of chaos and law, respectively. will less taken into account, demons should be no more evil than they are chaotic, nor should devils be more evil than they are lawful. (lawful in demeanor, not as in literally following the laws of whatever village needs terrorizing.) However, should a third party attempt to end the Bloodwar (enter the PCs), angels/archons intervene. No longer are these normal circumstances. then the evil they both share might alleviate the polar opposites of law and chaos enough that their crafty leaders (enter grazz't and Asmodeus) might make at least a temporary pact to battle the good guys. this poses interesting problem: Who wins, BBEGs or BBGGs?
Deper 05-31-07, 03:23 PM	I can see a third party making negotiations (but you still have the problem of Asmodeus only moving when he's good and ready, and sure that he will end up on top of everyone else), but getting Graz'zt on-side isn't enough. To end the Blood War you'd have to get the big three on side, which means either destroying two of them or getting all of them to put aside their differences.
Kihon 05-31-07, 04:11 PM	I agree that getting the three big demon lords on the same sheet of paper isn't likely to happen, but I was thinking of using the H4 module to finish Orcus or at least weaken him significantly enough to make Demogorgon decide to try and finish him. All this being set up by Graz'zt - so that while they are finally duking it out all of his armies can join with Hell's and invade the upper planes. As a demon lord, even if he can't hold the upper planes, any damage he can do is good for Chaos & evil. The Devils decide that soon enough Graz'zt will be pulled back into the abyss because of the other two demon lords fighting which would leave them in the upper planes by themselves - hopefully with at least one conquered - which they could then dominate and try to change the great wheel. It's totally impossible to tell what they would do, but that's what I'm trying to come up with for a truly epic campgain. Perhaps the epic characters need to intervene and try to break up the devils working together, or point out to the other demon lords what's really going on, or work with the other forces of goodness to recapture the lost plane (assuming just one plane lost before the evil alliance breaks). There are many possibilities, all of which I find entertaining. I do like the idea of Graz'zt having his long term on again, off again, girlfriend Iggwy casting super Epic Level Spells to assist him in pulling this off. His son Iuz could be using his divine influence to keep the rest of the pantheon focused on Greyhawk and not on what's going on with the bloodwar / upper plane invasion (at least for a while), or Iuz just works with Iggwy & Graz'zt to try and hold the demon army together as long as possible while wreaking as much carnage as possible. What do the rest of you think about the end game of this 'temporary alliance' - assuming it comes together and at least one of the upper planes is conquered (and held???) before the forces of goodness can stop this combined evil army.
Deper 05-31-07, 04:27 PM	I agree that getting the three big demon lords on the same sheet of paper isn't likely to happen, but I was thinking of using the H4 module to finish Orcus or at least weaken him significantly enough to make Demogorgon decide to try and finish him. All this being set up by Graz'zt - so that while they are finally duking it out all of his armies can join with Hell's and invade the upper planes. As a demon lord, even if he can't hold the upper planes, any damage he can do is good for Chaos & evil. The Devils decide that soon enough Graz'zt will be pulled back into the abyss because of the other two demon lords fighting which would leave them in the upper planes by themselves - hopefully with at least one conquered - which they could then dominate and try to change the great wheel. It's totally impossible to tell what they would do, but that's what I'm trying to come up with for a truly epic campgain. Fair enough, but the Blood War doesn't stop because two of the Three are fighting with one another, and Graz'zt isn't likely to just abandon the fight with his foes. He doesn't want to advances the causes of Chaos and Evil. He wants to crush Orcus and Demogorgon beneath his heels and rule over the Abyss (and then the world). Worse, if Demogorgan or Orcus realizes that Graz'zt has pulled forces out of the Abyss (which neither of the other two would have done in this senario), they're going to change focus and attack Graz'zt's holdings. If you have a choice between going after an opponent who's weakened, or an opponent who has left his vast holdings relatively undefended, what are you going to focus on? Orcus is going to want to try to take some of Graz'zt stuff to strengthen himself, and Demogorgan is going to be tempted by the possibility to get rid of the stronger of his foes in this rare moment, and turn back to the weaker one (who isn't going to strengthen that quickly) when he's absorbed Graz'zt holdings.
LeuktheSavior 05-31-07, 04:49 PM	If they could make an alliance that had real consequences, such as an epic spell that acts like a geas that binds all demons and demon lords currently in existant and those that will be come into existance to the alliance, and automatically destroys any of them(with no save) that betray (knowingly or otherwise) Asmodeus, the other Lords of the Nine, or the strict terms or listed goals of the alliance, try to negate the consequences of betraying the alliance, cause the break down of the alliance itself, or accept the breaking of the alliance, either through action, accident, or manipulation or accidental manipulation of others, and that should the alliance break all without the express agreement of all the Lords of the Nine, all demons would suffer the consequences as if they had been the ones to break the alliance. you go ahead and make a spell that covers all of demon and devil kind in a single geas that can destroy (depending on what versions you use and play of the devils and demons) deity-like entities without saves. Get back to me on the spellcraft check, an insta-kill spell against any creature with a CR above 20 without offering it a save. you want to know how you get Chaos and Law to work together on that sort of scale? A threat to their very existence. Make a fourth party (Celestials, Demons and Devils being the first three), who attacks the hells and the abyss, blaming the celestial realms for the attack, and see what happens. But an actual agreement? Sit Bush down beside a homosexual man that wants to marry his partner on one side, and a muslim fundamentalist zealot on the other side. tell each of them they can do whatever the hell they want to each other, even kill each other without having their good named sullied, but an agreement of sorts has to be reached that makes the homosexual, the muslim fanatic, and good ol' Bush content with the outcome.
Kihon 05-31-07, 06:35 PM	For the record the "Bush vs. Fundamentalist Islam" has been framed more of a "good" vs. "evil" fight, not Law & Chaos. Personally I dislike bringing the 'real world' into D&D discussions because then people start getting fired up about their beliefs here and sometimes they can't keep them apart from their D&D thoughts. I'm not the one that came up with the idea of having Graz'zt sending out alliance proposals - the writers did. I'm just expanding on their ideas by forming it into an Epic game. So I'm not 'wacked' by saying that it is at least possible. I do like the idea of a third party being involved, either as negotiator or as threat. Remember the Enemy of my enemy if my friend, sometimes, maybe... I totally see the Devils & Demons putting aside their fight and joining together if a third group invaded both the abyss & the nine hells and started wining.
Taeldrin Laesrash 06-01-07, 12:12 AM	I do like the idea of a third party being involved, either as negotiator or as threat. Remember the Enemy of my enemy if my friend, sometimes, maybe... I totally see the Devils & Demons putting aside their fight and joining together if a third group invaded both the abyss & the nine hells and started wining. During the ancient Law/Chaos war, the one time celestials invaded the Lower Planes, Asmodeus brokered a truce with the Queen of Chaos, and both evils slaughtered good. Just for the record. I don't think any Lords of the Nine would be willing to team up with Grazz't or a similar Demon Lord; there's little the demon can get them. An arch-devil, such as Gargauth, though, has a lot to gain, and may be desparate enough to make such a leap for power (Gargauth/Grazz't. Hmm. Interesting FR/Planescape campaign...)
tridiak 06-01-07, 04:04 AM	Stop lumping Slaadi into the evil category. They are not EVIL. Unpredictable and individualistic, yes. Psychopathic killers, no. CN does not automatically imply misery and death.
Rikandur_Azebol 06-01-07, 04:41 AM	But many of the most powerful slaadi are EVIL ! :D Not to mention that their flavor indicates them to be slightly demonic and often destructive. Blame WoTC for creating CN exemplars that seem like Demons-lite.
Kihon 06-01-07, 03:39 PM	Personally I like the Slaadi & loths (or Daemons if your perfer) as much, or even more then, the demons & devils... probably all about equal though:) I am certainly going to include them in my epic campaign...a little different flavor to add in just when those epic characters start to think they have things figured out - haha.
Witch 06-01-07, 03:43 PM	It's "'loths", not "lolths". 'loths are Neutral Evil exemplar. Lolths are angsty spider goddesses.
The_Hedgewizard 06-01-07, 10:03 PM	Who in the Arch-Devil Ladder is likely to take him up on the offer? I think Baalzebub would be. At least, as likely as likely would get in this situation. . .
Kihon 06-02-07, 06:48 PM	I agree that either Belz. or Mephs. would perhaps be up to the challenge - as they hate each other, and both see themselves as being superior to big A.
Kyuketsukiouji 06-02-07, 08:44 PM	Levistus would probably be more than happy to jump ship anytimes, if you can get him out of his ice cube.
Mempter 06-03-07, 03:39 PM	Does anyone remember where it states that Grazzt wants to end the Bloodwar? Memory tells me that he wants to secretly end the Bloodwar, join with the Devils & lolths and have all three forces of evil storm the heavenly gates. Anyone have an idea where that is written? Got some good theories here, but let me try and answer your initial question Kihon. There's a little exceprt on p. 119 of the Fiendish Codex I about one of Graz'zt's agents, Rule-of-Three, that reads, in part, like this: The eccentric scholar...usually comes to Zelatar to make reports to Graz'zt's chief of intelligence on his sub-rosa efforts to unite the baatezu, tanar'ri, and yugoloths in an effort to invade the Upper Planes. The Dark Prince himself supports the plan, a secret Rule-of-Three will protect with his life. Would this be what you're referring to?
Kihon 06-04-07, 10:45 AM	Is that from the expedition to the Demonweb Pits book or Fiendish Codex? Either way - that quote supports what I read, although I don't think that is exactly the way it was stated. I may have read it back in 2E somewhere, not sure really where or when. Anyway - it does seem that Graz'zt is trying (debatable how hard) to unite all of evil against the upper planes. That is why I'm going to make him the center of an epic campaign. Thanks for finding the quote.
Mempter 06-04-07, 03:48 PM	Is that from the expedition to the Demonweb Pits book or Fiendish Codex? Either way - that quote supports what I read, although I don't think that is exactly the way it was stated. I may have read it back in 2E somewhere, not sure really where or when. Anyway - it does seem that Graz'zt is trying (debatable how hard) to unite all of evil against the upper planes. That is why I'm going to make him the center of an epic campaign. Thanks for finding the quote. On that note, I recognized the name Rule-of-Three from previous Planescape supplements and decided to investigate a little further. For one, he's featured on p. 84 of Uncaged: Faces of Sigil, a book that came out circa '96 that featured a number of npcs based in or around Sigil;that bit reiterates what's printed in the Codex. The second mention of him was in the Hellbound boxed set (that came out the same year), on the bottom p.72 of The Dark of the War booklet that seems to go along with more of what you believe you read: "But no one less than Graz'zt himself...seeks to put an end to the fighting. Graz'zt simply doesn't see the use in eternal war with the baatezu--not when both races could unite and crush the celestials. Fact is, Graz'zt works through Rule-of-Three...to arrange peace talks between baatezu and tanar'ri high-ups. Should the ambitious lord ever realize his goal, the rest of the multiverse'd better say its prayers."
Kihon 06-04-07, 06:34 PM	Nice catch Mempter. That's it - Hellbound Box Set is where I got the idea. Thank you very much!
Johnny_Angel 06-05-07, 12:03 AM	But many of the most powerful slaadi are EVIL ! :D Not to mention that their flavor indicates them to be slightly demonic and often destructive. Blame WoTC for creating CN exemplars that seem like Demons-lite. Don't forget that some of the Modrons are now evil due to Tenebrious (spelling?) slaying Primus and taking his place for a short time.