Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thorsbjorn 01-25-08, 01:38 AM	I recently purchased Serpent Kingdoms and found an updated version of the Epic Level Handbook's ha-naga. The authors of Serpent Kingdoms have increased the DC for the ha-naga's charming gaze from 33 to 35, without increasing the ha-naga's Charisma or giving it the Ability Focus feat. The errata do not mention the change. If we accept the change it would mean treating the charming gaze as a 12th-level ability. Does this make any sense at all, or do you think it was just a stray typo that Wizards couldn't be bothered to fix in the errata? The Epic Level Handbook has the gaze as a 10th-level ability, which seems more appropriate since epic level spells have a spell level of 10th. Thanks! :)
runestar 01-25-08, 04:26 AM	Charming gaze is an SU ability, meaning that its dc for a sample ha-naga is determined by 10+12(1/2 of 24 HD)+13(cha mod of having a cha score of 36) = 35.:)
Thorsbjorn 01-25-08, 04:30 AM	Charming gaze is an SU ability, meaning that its dc for a sample ha-naga is determined by 10+12(1/2 of 24 HD)+13(cha mod of having a cha score of 36) = 35.:) Oh gosh, I totally forgot that rule! It's silly because I use it when I level up the wizard's dragon cohort, but it just totally slipped my mind. So the DC rose by 2 because the hit dice rose by 4. That makes sense. Thanks! So what do you think of the obsidian golem? :D
runestar 01-25-08, 04:50 AM	Obsidian golem...?:confused: Where is that from?
Thorsbjorn 01-25-08, 06:39 PM	Obsidian golem...?:confused: Where is that from? It's from http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=982868
Thorsbjorn 01-26-08, 04:56 PM	By the way, does a DC of 35 seem a bit high for a CR of 22? I looked at the the Will saves of the NPCs in the campaign I run and the best one allows the character, teh cleric, to save on a 9, but three others need 15 and one needs to roll a 21 (in other words, he can't succeed at all). I don't have the PC sheets but I think that the 22nd-level wizard and the ECL 20 monk each probably needs around 19 or 20, and the 21st-level ranger probably can't make it at all. If that party ran into a ha-naga there's a good chance it would just make all of them its permanent guards. :D
runestar 01-27-08, 06:37 AM	Well, I suppose that at epic lvs, you should be looking towards immunities. For instance, your fighter could have mindblank cast on him by the wizard, which negates the need for will saves (for most part).:D
Thorsbjorn 01-27-08, 04:02 PM	Well, I suppose that at epic lvs, you should be looking towards immunities. For instance, your fighter could have mindblank cast on him by the wizard, which negates the need for will saves (for most part).:D The party's wizard and sorceress each walk around with a mind blank each day, so I guess they'd both be protected. I'm pretty sure that the wizard memorizes only one per day though. In theory the sorceress could cast more than one per day, but nobody has asked her to, and I think in general the party prefers her to save her high-level slots for offensive magic. But you're definitely right that they could protect more of the party if they wanted.
Tshern 01-27-08, 04:46 PM	Clerics save at level 20 was only 26? Not having Superior resistance and Conviction on I take it. Maybe you could suggest the Cleric to keep up an extend version of Mass Conviction at all times, +5 to saves is not too shabby.
Thorsbjorn 01-27-08, 05:29 PM	Clerics save at level 20 was only 26? Not having Superior resistance and Conviction on I take it. Maybe you could suggest the Cleric to keep up an extend version of Mass Conviction at all times, +5 to saves is not too shabby. The cleric is actually a barbarian 1/cleric 9/thunder priest 10. His base save bonus is +13. He had a +10 Wisdom bonus and a +3 resistance bonus from a cloak of resistance. For his six 6th level spells he normally memorizes banishment, mass bear's endurance, cometfall, greater dispel magic and two heal spells. I still use the old 3.0 duration on the buff spells like bear's endurance, so it lasts 20 hours. I suppose he could dump something for one superior resistance and raise his Will bonus to 29, or give it to someone with a lower Will bonus since he already has the highest in the party. I think he has the only break enchantment spell in the party, so maybe it would be best if he used the superior resistance himself. He does actually memorize a greater conviction each day but I cannot recall him ever using it. At his current level it lasts only 3 hours and 20 minutes, which would be fine if they were going into dungeons for a couple of hours here and there, but doesn't work so well when they're traveling or walking around and can have an encounter at any time. Even if he had the Extend Spell feat, which he doesn't, he could extend it only to 6 hours and 40 minutes, which again would be fantastic for dungeon-delving, but still gets lost in a 24-hour day.
Tshern 01-27-08, 06:01 PM	He could use a metamagic rod. Two spells and two charges from a rod that costs 2k, you'd have over 13 hours of Conviction.
Thorsbjorn 01-27-08, 10:53 PM	He could use a metamagic rod. Two spells and two charges from a rod that costs 2k, you'd have over 13 hours of Conviction. That's a good idea. I'll pass it along to the party's leader. At least that way the party could have the +5 morale bonus about half the day. If they wanted him to memorize a 3rd one he could keep it on them for 20 hours per day (assuming three uses of the Extend Spell metamagic rod). I'm not sure if they'll want to give up all two more of his 3rd-level spells, but maybe one more for the 13 hours and 20 minutes of protection. A +5 bonus is, as you say, very nice. :)
rob_douglas 01-28-08, 09:48 AM	Don't forget Magic Cricle vs. Evil basically negates the effects of the Charming gaze as well, as long as folks stay in range. Sure the fighter has a hard time, but a caster at 22nd level has a will save of +21 or better. And that is with a starting WIS of 10 and no inherents. Clerics would have +5 more, being +26 or better. ROB
Thorsbjorn 01-28-08, 04:41 PM	Don't forget Magic Cricle vs. Evil basically negates the effects of the Charming gaze as well, as long as folks stay in range. Sure the fighter has a hard time, but a caster at 22nd level has a will save of +21 or better. And that is with a starting WIS of 10 and no inherents. Clerics would have +5 more, being +26 or better. ROB Yes, I'd forgotten about magic circle preventing control. Even protection from evil will do it--assuming the anyone has either spell running when they encounter the ha-naga. A 22nd-level wizard has a base/epic save bonus of +13. Where are you getting the +21? In the case of the wizard in my group I forgot to check Saturday night so I'm estimating a +2 Wisdom bonus and I'm pretty sure he has a +5 cloak, for a total of +20. The party's cleric, as I mentioned above, does have a total of +26: base +13, +10 Wisdom, and +3 cloak.
rob_douglas 01-30-08, 06:13 PM	+2 Wis bonus is only a Wis of 14. At Epic level, I expect a +6 WIS item, and at least 2 points of inherent bonus. Assuming he started with 10 (though I also expect a Wizard to start with 12 WIS) that means he should have +4 from WIS, +5 if he started at 12. +5 from the cloak nets you +23. Luckstone +1 more for +24. Cleric even higher. Pale green ioun stone - another +1. Add in any kind of Heroism or bard song and the party really has a good shot. ROB
Thorsbjorn 01-31-08, 04:59 AM	+2 Wis bonus is only a Wis of 14. At Epic level, I expect a +6 WIS item, and at least 2 points of inherent bonus. Assuming he started with 10 (though I also expect a Wizard to start with 12 WIS) that means he should have +4 from WIS, +5 if he started at 12. +5 from the cloak nets you +23. Luckstone +1 more for +24. Cleric even higher. Pale green ioun stone - another +1. Add in any kind of Heroism or bard song and the party really has a good shot. ROB His wizard got whatever score he rolled and put into Wisdom. As I recall he had one of the poorest sets of original rolls, and I offered him the opportunity to reroll, but he declined. I think though that he might actually have a [/I]+6 periapt of Wisdom, that they got from the epic pirate captain running the slave galley they defeated. That would raise his Will DC 24. So that's not too far from your figure. I don't have any power gamers in my group and nobody spends their time pouring over lists of magic items or spells to give themselves every imaginable bonus. My guess is that nobody in the group right now even knows what a luckstone is. Also right now the only two characters with any inherent bonuses are the two with prestige classes that grant some inherent bonuses. At my suggestion a couple of months of real time back, the wizard's player did have the party buy a book granting an inherent bonus to his or her prime statistic, +5 for everyone but the dragon cohort, who got a +4 book since she will always have an even number in the ability score for which they got the book. Because of a combination of intense action and days missed for holidays and deaths between then and now, none of the characters has finished her or her book yet. I think that most of the characters have 3-5 days of the 8 days necessary. Even at the end of the 8 days though the wizard won't have any inherent bonus to Wisdom, just to Intelligence. I think the only one getting the inherent bonus to Wisdom is the party's primary cleric, the barbarian 1/cleric 9/thunder priest 11. He actually already had an inherent bonus to Wisdom from the thunder priest prestige class, so while he will, after reading the book, have a +5 bonus, he won't really have gotten the book's full benefit in that regard. The party's half-celestial barbarian 2/cleric 1/ranger 2/fighter 4/lightning warrior 7 has a similar problem with regard to his inherent bonus to Strength. Oh, I just remembered that the wizard also got a book granting a smaller inherent bonus to Charisma, in order to be able to have his dragon cohort advance beyond the maximum level possible with the Dragon Cohort feat from Draconomicon (by taking a feat I call simply Epic Dragon Cohort). This is more a roleplaying decision than a power-optimizing decision. It's frankly nice to have players who view the game as role-playing and not just power-playing. I wouldn't mind though if they did a tiny bit more power gaming than they do. :P
rob_douglas 01-31-08, 06:08 PM	OK, the CR is based on somewhat optimized characters, within the wealth guidelines given. If your party has lower stats than that, and doesn't power-game, you may have to scale back the EL that you consider appropriate for them. So maybe this party can't handle a CR22 Ha-Naga until closer to 24th level. It is not a problem, and may be more fun for them. My party doesn't optimize either. I like it, as I can make good use of some CR16s against them still, and it not be boring. :) ROB
Thorsbjorn 01-31-08, 07:32 PM	OK, the CR is based on somewhat optimized characters, within the wealth guidelines given. If your party has lower stats than that, and doesn't power-game, you may have to scale back the EL that you consider appropriate for them. So maybe this party can't handle a CR22 Ha-Naga until closer to 24th level. It is not a problem, and may be more fun for them. My party doesn't optimize either. I like it, as I can make good use of some CR16s against them still, and it not be boring. :) ROB Yes, exactly! In a recent encounter a chieftan led two units of sahuagin to attack the ship in which they're sailing. It started out with a poisoned mat of kelp with thorns tangled around the rudder underwater. The silver dragon cohort and half-celestial lightning warrior flew down and swam underwater to check it out. A "pack" of dire sharks attacked them. The wizard had his cohort flee, leaving the half-celestial to fight them all by himself. While the other characters were trying to figure out what was going on, the sahuagin scaled the side of the ship and surrounded the ship's (2nd-level) sailors. The real challenge for the party came in trying to kill, drive off, or disable the sahuagin before the sahuagin could kill any of the crew. (They have just a skeleton crew of former slave oarsman the party rescued from the epic pirates, and they're taking the former pirate galley to a port where there's a reward for the capture or killing of the pirates, and if they lose even one member of the skeleton crew they can't sail the ship.) The dire sharks were good for giving the dragon cohort a scare, and for keeping the half-celestial busy. Maybe a more optimized group would have dispatched the sahuagin and their sharks more quickly, although as it happened the party did manage to prevent any of the crew from actually dying. You know the funny thing is that while not optimized, the party did manage to take out not one but two brachyuruses (aka brachyuri) when still around 18th level, even though that's an EL of 25. On the second one they actually just got lucky, as the wizard tried a prismatic spray, overcame it's SR, and then it happened to roll a natural 1 when he happened to roll a result that destroyed the critter if it failed its save. They were about to flee, however, after having killed the first brachyurus but having lost the half-celestial lightning warrior to the brachyurus' savage special attacks. So it's odd in that some epic critters are much more potent threats, even maybe at a lower CR, than others, at least to this party.